Past trauma keeping us from physical intimacy

[Spaces]

I've read all over and some of the posts I see are close to what I need advice on, but not quiet right.  If I've justed missed it, feel free to point it out.

To start off, I'll let you know, I am the most patient person I know.  I've been told by countless people that they simply don't understand why I am so patient.  I am NOT a pushover, I'm not sure if its just apathy or inner-peace, maybe a mix.  BUT, I've fallen from my spot in nirvana.

I met her just after last christmas, we started dating about a month later, very casual.  And seemingly the most natural progression, I can honestly say I love her, and she loves me (though she can't say it).

We've sat down and she's talked to me about her being BPD, she was very honest, very straight forward and followed up with "we should probably not date, for your sake"... . Oh well, too late for that now (and honestly... . I'd make the same choice)

She used to be a addict, but she's been clean three years.  :)uring one of her "k-holes" as she calls it, she was sexually assaulted, a baby was aborted.

After that it seems my problems are nothing and I should just suck it up, but I'm not too sure.

About two months ago, she kissed me a couple of times, otherwise she refuses to.  She loves it when I kiss her, but will not kiss me back.  Its weird kissing unrequited lips.  She says she doesn't know if she'll ever kiss me.  She says we'll probably have sex before she kisses me.

So the sex... .  We'll get all hot and heavy, our clothes will disappear and then she'll realize what we're about to do and FREAK out.  Not always freak out, she cried once, yelled a few times, but mostly she'll say things like "OMGOMG get off, can you please leave my apartment for a few minutes".  Funny thing... . I'm not always the one who initiats.  One night it got to the point where she had initiated 4 times... .

/le sigh

We talked about it and she apologizes, gets teary eyed, asks me why I stay, thanks me for staying, cuddles up on my chest.  "I understand this is difficult for you, and I don't mean to be a bhit.  I'm so sorry".  I say "its ok, you're worth the wait" because she is.  She says "but eventually you'll leave me if I don't have sex with you", I really don't know what to say to that.  A healthy sex life is important, so eventually is possible.  So I say "how long do you think we'll have to wait". She replies "I don't know... .  Why don't you go to the bar tonight and pick someone up.  There's $60 in my purse, grab it, have a couple of beer and pick someone up, but not hot, I'll get jealous if she's hot".  I didn't do it.  She keeps offering and she gets confused when I say I don't want to sleep with anyone else.  She even offered to find someone for me.  I find that insulting, but I don't tell her.

Oh, and she broke up with me on my birthday, then begged me not to leave her.

She's also outragiously gorgious.  10/10.  I would litterally not change a thing about her, and in fact, if she wanted to change something (she mentioned a nosejob) I think it would take away fromm her beauty.  

I can be there when she needs, and not be there when she needs me not to be, and I can not be there when I need a break.  I'm willing to go to hell and back.  I just need some help with the road map... . Also... . The sex thing is starting to hit my ego, never thought I'd let a girl hurt my self-esteem, but then again, she's not a girl, she's the woman I love.

Help?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi, 

I'm sorry for what you're going through, it sure doesn't sound easy. Sexual abuse is a heavy, heavy burden to bear. We have many wonderful members here, senior members with a lot of knowledge, and I'm sure they'll be able to help you, guide you and support you.

Meanwhile, have you read the The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship It gives you some great tools.

And maybe this Shame and Implicit Self-Concept in Women With Borderline Personality Disorder could be of help to you, mabye give you some insight into your girlfriend.

Oh, and she broke up with me on my birthday, then begged me not to leave her.

That is par for the course, I'm afraid. People with BPD (pwBPD) have a way of functioning where they push you away and then pull you back. Emotional closeness is very difficult for them. Which can be very frustrating and hurtful us who are in relationships with them. It's important that you take care of YOU, too.   Do things that makes you fell better.

What are some things you could do right now or this week to feel more centered and relaxed?

[briefcase]

Is she getting any treatment or therapy currently?  The sexual assault probably has something to do with the sex issue and she may need to work through that with a professional.  Otherwise, the push/pull dynamic in the relationship is pretty classic BPD behavior.  You need to be the leader emotionally and take good care of yourself.  It's important that you not go into this with the mindset that you are going to fix or change what's broken in her - that's her job.  Let us know how it goes.

[Spaces]

I've read a lot on this site already, I've read several books, and I know the path I want to take with our overall development in our relationship.  Recently I've met her mother, she came with me to my father's funeral and met my entire family, and I know that both is substantial for her.  I am aware of her extreme fear of abandonment, and we have a very effective communication system.  When she is having her "days" and is in hate mode, I simply say "I'm gonna go for a little bit, I'll text you later, and come back later tonight, or I'll see you tomorrow before work". The space helps us both a lot and usually she'll "come too" a few hours later, sometimes a couple days.  We'll talk about it and she's visibly sad and feels guilty.  As far as going off the deep-end, we have a very strong communication and understanding.  We're also working through normal relationship stuff too.  I was in a long term relationship what seems a lifetime ago, but this is her first relationship lasting more than a month.  At the beginning I laid down very specific rules and she hasn't betrayed that trust.  I can deal with most things.

She says she's not ready to see someone professionally but if I really want her to she will, but she has to do it for herself, so I reply "when you're a little bit more ready".  Its just the sex thing, she initiates and then when the wave of visceral, primal sexuality subsides slightly she becomes sort of... . Aware, and the wall comes back up.  I honestly don't know what to do.  If it were just me making the move then... . yeah, ok, my fault, not a big deal, but she initiates... . and the kissing thing... .   Am I wrong in thinking that's unnecessarily complicated?

Another thing I remembered that I'm confused about is convoluted.  She calls me her boyfriend, says that she's my girlfriend, we've been "official" for five months, she'll say after a day or two after an episode that she truly doesn't want to break up with me, but in a different conversation she'll say we can't really break up because we're not REALLY a couple.

[Blazing Star]

Hi Spaces,

It sounds like you are in good head space to be there for your GF, your compassion and understanding is great!

As has been mentioned, the mix of BPD and sexual abuse is a tough one. Do you know if she had any therapy for the assault? Her sexual reactions sound pretty normal for a sexual abuse/assault survivor, and the kissing thing may be wrapped up in that too. There may be multiple layers of feelings she needs to confront and deal with. Things like shame, guilt, anger, disgust - all pretty heavy to deal with.

She may initiate and get into it on a physical level, and then something triggers one of the above feelings and she finds it hard to separate that from what she is experiencing in the moment with you, and the wall goes back up to protect herself from the onslaught of those feelings.

There is only so much you can do until she steps up into some therapy. There may come a point where that becomes a dealbreaker for you.

We are here for you.

Love Blazing Star

[Spaces]

Honestly, i think i jumped the gun in asking for advice.  Or she read my frustration levels and caved.  We're not exactly where we should be, but we're a lot further than where we were a week ago.  She broke up with me and almost immediately took it back.  A few hours later she kissed me. My heart skipped a few beats.  I'd go on, but I don't think there is an erotica sub-forum.

I DO however have something else I might benefit from asking.  Should I post it here as an addendum or create a new post.  It's about potential body dysmorphic disorder.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I'm glad thing worked out. These relationships go a lot up and down, hot and cold, push and pull. Mine certainly does, one day my dBPDbf thinks I'm the sweetest, most lovely person in the world, the next he hates me. Eh... . gotta go with your own flow.

Don't worry about "jumping the gun in asking for advice", that's the whole point of the forum 

Feel free to start a new post every time you have a new subject. That way it gets the right title and it's easier for all of us to participate and search for subjects.

[goldylamont]

hi Spaces, i'm a little worried that you may be too accomodating to her "needs"? when actually in the r/s it's very hard to see how manipulative and dishonest this person could be. here are a few things i've picked up from reading from others and also my own experience, it may sound harsh but want you to know what is possible:

--i wouldn't be so trustworthy of her version of the past. what i and many others find is that after leaving a pwBPD we actually become the storied abusive person who is the cause of all the emotional trauma going on. my ex told me her bf before me cheated on her with a close friend. i attributed this to her behavior with me. i believed it at the time, now i think it was a flat out lie, or a delusion at best. she's told (how many?) people that i did the same to her which is completely false. it's likely the issues she has now have been going on for decades, preceding any claimed recent abuse (even if this abuse did occur). also possible that she's been with a string of other people in your same shoes that she does the no-sex dance with. and is manipulating the truth and you into feeling like you are special and saving her now. which she has done many times, will do many more. she could very well be using your patience against you--taking your virtue and using it to control you. i would be wary of trusting what she is telling you. and, i mean this in a way that i hope is not offensive, just hope you are aware i've read this time and again.

--it doesn't seem like she is honoring your needs and as if you are over-accommodating to hers. and this is dangerous territory. many of her behaviors of breakup/makeup, sexual push/pull could have a manipulative undertone to keep you in check and keep you doing her bidding for her. she'll give you just enough to keep you in line and then when she has you, lash out and push away (her true motive). i feel it's important to trust how whatever is happening is making you feel, and know that you feeling this way is part of a greater, cyclical plan, until she tires out and moves on to something else.

i read another one of your posts about how she had you running around all day getting the right clothes for you to wear... . to *your* father's funeral--in my opinion this is not just inconsiderate but abusive on her part. please take care. when you start to draw your own healthy boundaries and not do exactly as they desire their true character is likely to show. stay strong, stay aware, do enjoy things when you can and always trust your inner voice

[Spaces]

I've thought about this a lot, not the possibility of her lying to me about her past, but about her controlling me.  It's like this; if she is just an abusive, controlling, manipulator, then I'll leave.  Simple as that. She just lost out, she may or may not regret it, but... . Who cares, there are no muligans on life. If she isn't that horrible person I've just described and she is as amazing as I believe she is, than truly, undeniably, worth the risk.

If it comes down to it I can and will leave.

and is manipulating the truth and you into feeling like you are special and saving her now. which she has done many times, will do many more. she could very well be using your patience against you--taking your virtue and using it to control you

. This is the only thing I hadn't considered before and I will have to meditate on it, if there is an ioda of truth in this than simply she doesn't deserve me.   I'm not saying I have any doubt about her, and I trust her, but I will observe for this, in case of the unlikely event that I'm wrong.

[Spaces]

And one tiny more thing.  Right now, I'm just gonna enjoy this respite, even if its fake. 

[goldylamont]

And one tiny more thing.  Right now, I'm just gonna enjoy this respite, even if its fake. 

haha, good for you Spaces. while i wanted to discuss some possibilities and open up awareness, i didn't want to be too harsh with things. you sound like you are on the right path and thinking in ways to protect yourself. go head with your bad self! 

I've thought about this a lot, not the possibility of her lying to me about her past, but about her controlling me.  It's like this; if she is just an abusive, controlling, manipulator, then I'll leave.  Simple as that. She just lost out, she may or may not regret it, but... . Who cares, there are no muligans on life. If she isn't that horrible person I've just described and she is as amazing as I believe she is, than truly, undeniably, worth the risk.

If it comes down to it I can and will leave.

good. sounds like you have your principals and boundaries in place. regarding whether a pwBPD is just a manipulator/abusive/controlling person, or whether they are amazing/intelligent/sexy/caring -- the dynamic that many of us are dealing with is that they are *both*. and this is why our brain feels scrambled being in a r/s with one. there would be no reason to stick around if the person didn't have good qualities to keep us there.

i think for me the saddest realization was coming to terms with the fact that any r/s with this person is only temporary, b/c they are mentally ill, with no signs of getting better in sight. the way they "heal" themselves seems to be to inject you with excess emotional poison and then move on to someone new who they can idealize and start all over with again. and no amount of compassion or understanding in my case could have made things better. things that work to resolve conflict in a normal r/s just have no meaning in this b/c a BPD sees reality differently.

you are gaining some great insights early on in the r/s though so good for you. i'm sure you will be able to navigate well. just always trust yourself, your gut feelings and your needs! good luck Spaces 

[Spaces]

my dBPDgf isn't the first person i've encountered with BPD.  I come from a very large family (i'm the middle child of 11) and one of my sisters is dBPD, my brother-in-law is dBPD, and i'm convinced that my step-father is uBPD.  I've also "changed my ways", I used to be... . lets say NOT a gentleman, i was very self-centered and would go through girls really quickly.  sometimes i would be "dating" with four different girls at the same time, it was easily justified in my head, but... . eventually I came to really care for one of those girls, and as beautiful as karma is, i was really hurt.  that being said, i've dated a few women who have had uBPD and a couple with dBPD.  The first girl i though "oh, well, how hard could this be?" the relationship lasted about two months before I didn't want to do it anymore.  I still talk to her once in a while, she's a lot better, had a kid, happy nucleic family.  So i've had plenty of experience with BPD even if i didn't know what BPD was.  i've been to this site a couple times on and off over the past two years.  For a while I thought i was a person with BPD, but I now know it was something else entirely.  to keep it PG-13, i'll just say i was a jerk.  For that, and my promiscuity, i've done a great deal of soul searching, emotionally and spiritually i'm exactly where i need to be, to the point where financially i'm behind a few years to where i want to be, but they'll come. 

as far as my dBPDgf, i absolutely believe that it CAN be a permanent thing, there are success stories.  She's a strong, vibrant, independent woman, who sometimes is weak, miserable, and needy.  I know I can't be the one to "cure" her, and that's why when she says she'll go to therapy for me, i reply with "when you're ready", because she can't do it for me, and i can't do it for her, it really is that simple.  the point i was tring to make about leaving isn't that i'm overly eager, i absolutely don't want to, and i'll do everything i can to prevent it, but if the time comes that my personal well-being is being attacked (emotionally, spiritually, or financially) and i can't handle it, i'll leave.  i don't believe life is binary, there ARE two people in my relationship, yes, i'm not getting exactly what i need right now, but because of my past i can put the sex away because honestly, i would rather her in my life than to get laid.  now this part we may disagree on... .

the dynamic that many of us are dealing with is that they are *both*

either she's sweet and caring, and she has bad days where her hatred is blooming, I look at it much like the same way with someone who is addicted to things like gambling, neuro pathways literally change, chemicals react differently, they are forever changed (until the neuro pathways are retrained), so... . it isn't that she's a manipulator, its that she is also a victim of herself.  She cries and feels genuine guilt, only to do it again, same with an addict.  So she still deals with an addiction, just and addiction inside her body rather than substance abuse.  There aren't two people in there, just one who has battery-acid poured into her emotional cavity once in a while.  I have to believe that she can "get better", and she can, otherwise there wouldn't be amazing success stories, and because i love her, i'm more than eager to be here for her, the moment it becomes clear that its a lost cause, i'm out.

tiny sidebar, i'm not angry with you, i'm not arguing, in fact, i find this conversation very therapeutic.  but i gotta go for now :P

[goldylamont]

on the contrary Spaces, this argument is therapeutic for me as well. i'm seeing that there's far more to your story that i didn't realize before so i hope i didn't come across as too assuming. you seem to have extensive experience dealing with BPD, so seems like you know what you're doing. you must be incredibly strong to face things the way you are so my hats off to you 

since you shared more of your story perhaps i'll share more of mine so you can understand where i'm coming from. and know that i'm learning a lot from you so thanks for sharing. in my life i don't have too much experience with pwBPD. i didn't even know what BPD was until about 5 months ago so it's been like a landslide of information and clarification of what was happening in my r/s which ended about 1.5 yrs ago. now seeing things through this lens i can see a few people from my past who probably suffered from BPD--a coworker of mine i used to have a crush on about 8 yrs ago, we maybe dated a bit but were never intimate... . i didn't get emotional poison from her but could see she was affected by something. i also have an aunt who i feel may be BPD now that i know what it is. but the r/s with my ex is the only one i've had that really had any effect on me.

for me, i don't feel i could ever be in a real r/s with a person with BPD--this is just from my limited experience though. i truly loved my exBPD at the time, and to be honest it wasn't the emotional ups and downs that i couldn't handle. i have a patience and inner strength and could have weathered through these times. i broke up with exBPD because my inner voice was telling me that i had to as i felt she was just going to start cheating on me with other men. and seeing her behavior after our breakup and finding out about an emotional affair she rekindled a month or so before i broke up with her i think i made the right decision. i also never distrusted my ex pretty much for the totality of our r/s. however the last year and last 6 months of our r/s in particular, she was so accusatory towards me, claiming that i was cheating or that i wanted to, then saying she knew i wasn't cheating, then treating me like i was, this cycle over and over and over got me thinking--anyone that's this accusatory eventually is going to feel justified in stepping out of the r/s themselves.

my inner voice, didn't tell me things i wanted to hear, but everything it was telling me in some way shape or form ended up being true, although i wouldn't find out till much later. i broke up with exBPD over the phone, while she was away and i hadn't seen her for a couple weeks. we'd been arguing and spent the christmas holidays separate. during this time we'd talk a lot but her demeanor consistantly got more and more vile and dismissive over the phone. i would suck it up knowing she was frustrated, letting her know i loved and cared and wanted to make amends but her disrespect just continued. finally just after new years i told her i couldn't do it anymore. i didn't feel any love from her, it was just too much. but the underlying voice in my head told me that this woman needed to be with another man before she could ever appreciate me. i knew of one guy she had dated briefly before we became a couple in particular, and my voice told me that perhaps she needed to be with this guy, and if she didn't find perfection with him, then and only then perhaps we could reconcile. it was painful but that's how i felt when i broke up with her. needless to say after avoiding me for two weeks she pops up back at home the next day, unannounced, and i know it was b/c she thought i had some woman in our home cheating on her. she wanted to catch me in the act. crazy woman. it turns out months later that i find out that during our time apart during the christmas/new years break that my ex started contacting the guy i mentioned before and they were having conversations over skype. nothing explicit but still an emotional affair of sorts. he lives in europe (we live in usa) so they weren't seeing each other in person, still, i have no idea how somehow i instinctively felt that there was some connection going on between she and he. at the time i didn't think at all she was even talking with this person, just a strong feeling that i needed to go to protect myself, that she needed to experience something/someone different b/c she was being completely unfair, suspect and disrespectful to me. and then find out months later about her skype calls, i was shocked, not so much that she had done this, but that somehow i knew. from this point on i could see a pattern of her treating me like sh@t whenever she had a man in her life. no guy in her sights, she was an angel. when a new prospect of a victim was in sight, she raised hell.

i just couldn't do this. i'm sure our situations differ. would love to know your thoughts on mine as well. i realize now that i have what it takes to survive a r/s with a difficult person, but i'm unwilling to play if this person is on a crash course to cheat on me, because in their demented mind they always feel like i'm cheating on them. that's where i draw the line, so it just could never work.

and also i'm realizing that my experience showed that when my exBPDgf was treating me terribly and pulling away, that she was quite capable of seeking comfort in another man. all the while claiming that i was cheating (which is ludicrous). so, Spaces, i think this is where i get my perspective of if this person is pulling away or treating you badly/oddly, that it may not just be that this person needs space or is going through something alone, since in my case it could very well mean that she's simply connecting with another man, lying about it and punishing me more for absolutely no real reason at all. i could deal with the push/pull, but not with another man involved, because then it's simply not a r/s at all. So i wanted you to know this, b/c i understand your situation is different and perhaps you would never have to worry about your partner confiding in another. You've made me realize my own perspective as i'm writing this though so thank you for that 

in my case, i'm thanking my inner voice and the gods above for wising me up to stop things before they completely got out of hand, as painful as it was. after experiencing the coupling of emotional poison, blame and lack of trust from her, with her connecting with other men and punishing me it throws up red flags for me hearing from other men speaking of their difficulties... . i'm like--just make sure there's no one else involved! are you sure you're the only one she's talking to? but this is just b/c of my experience and i totally see yours as separate.

thanks Spaces you've made me realize a lot. i'm writing this to you but also to myself. happy 4th!

[Spaces]

I feel really lucky. Because of my experiences I have very specific boundaries. Don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat.  Her pride would never let her steal from me, and she pushed the border of the lying thing.  I caught her once and pointed it out, she became really angry and I basically said "ok, bye" and when she realized I was serious the coin flipped. She tests the lying thing and when I catch it I call her on it, but the frequency and the severity has fallen drastically. She also knows that if she cheats on me she won't even get a goodbye, I'll just be gone. She knows I'll abandon my stuff and she'll just simply never see me again. And I'll never cheat on her, not just because of a moral standing but "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned". I would make absolute certainty that she knew we were over before I even entertained the thought.

Someone here had written something that I found irrelevant to me because I naturally already do it, but... . Be the emotional leader. Don't let her (or anyone really) dictate to you what you should be feeling.  If someone is bent on making you feel what they want you to feel, perhaps that isn't the right environment for you.  Unless of course they want you to feel good, that's always awesome.  In your situation I would very calmly and very simply say "you don't deserve me, and if you want me to stay YOU have to show me why I should". Always keep in mind that your well-being should never come 2nd tier to her games.

A stone must be chipped away piece by piece, only then will the works of art can shine. So the same with our souls.  Perhaps my dealings in the past was training and a dress rehearsal?  Maybe fate was preparing me to be who I need to be for her. For us know, and for myself.

Cheers for now