Is there hope?

[FastTurtle]

Hi I am in a relationship for aproximately 20 years with my wife. I have always tolerated (trying to keep the peace no matter what) what I now know to be BPD behaviour  but I did less so when the children (now 11 and 12) were old enough to understand what was going on. Keeping the peace stopped being the main objective as I did not want to model the wrong behaviours to them. Things have gradually become worse.

I think I have been extremely resilient trying to cope with my situation while trying to maintain stability for the children and keeping sane. I have recently read the book "stop walking on eggshells, taking your life back" and it has been instrumental to better understand and remove any remaining doubts that my wife indeed has BPD.  She is highly funcional BPD, a high achiever at work which keeps all extreme BPD behaviour inside the home for me and my daughters and sometimes her parents.  No cutting or actual suicide attempts. She does well at work and home when she is in her good place thenshe is charming, loving and really the woman I married and love.
The main problems that BPD causes are anger fits, sometimes physical and verbal violence towards me and verbal violence towards the children, mostly mind games to put them down and trying to get them to do what she wants. She has destroyed my property a few times (laptop, my eyeglasses, windshield in the car...) , she has slapped me hard once, bursting my eardrum snd lots of swearing, spitting, biting... we are planning a move from asia to Europe and that has led to stress, she does not seem to know what she wants, where she wants to live and it has been really hard to communicate without escalating, I am routinely blamed for being responsible for her problems and  more recently she is withdrawn at home, always on her phone while at home and highly involved with either other activities she enjoys or with activities with her friends - no interest in me or the kids and always annoyed at everything or anything. TIme with the family has been split always on the phone or with irritation or anger.

She has in the past accepted that there is a problem and sought counselling but dropped off soon after stating that :"she knows what to do" to manage her hanger no need for psychologist and to be fair she went through a period of remarkable well being and mood stability, managing anger well. However in the past 2 months she totally stopped.

I realise that I cannot change her or convince her to seek help. My only choice is to try to be happy on my own and create the best environment I can while trying to protect myself.

Last night we were half way through a movie at home while she was on her phone. I asked if she would be on the phone on the cinema, she went balistic and stopped netflix on her phone hence stopping me and the children from watching the rest of the movie. I explained that the glare was bothering me, but no -  I must apologise before we can watch. I asked the chidren to leave and told her in no uncertain terms that this is not acceptable and that she cannot do that to me.

Today I refused to go out on a long drive as I do not want to be in position where she goes into a fit and makes us come back home halfway or be stuck in the car with her,  unless she reassures me that would not be the case. She refused and started blaming me and bringing me on guilt trip trying to make me responsible for not going. I wanted to leave the room and go away when she started turning violent, she blocked me and grabbed my eyeglasses from my face. I in the past have grabbed her to get my glasses back or force my way through by grabbing her arms but it is very physical and the children are at home. she would walk in front of the car stopping me from leaving. So I just resorted to spend an hour waiting and meditating until she calms down (which worked) rather than escalate and give her more reasons for blaming me.

Sorry for long first post. Bottom line is I am on journey to manage my own feelings and to do things that make me happy regardless of her behaviour and that protect me from her controlling or violent behavior, always making sure I or the children are not trapped while trying to maintain a loving and available attitude as I know she does not chose to feel the way she feels. It is a fine balance and I appreciate any insights . I also have strong concerns that my daughters are starting to show some traits that are scaringly similar, such as shouting, screaming, sometimes hitting me in anger. I don't know if that is a natural consequence of their adolescent phase or modeling after the mother, BPD or a mix of everything.

Thanks - is great to be part of a forum of people sharing similar experiences.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Yes..there is HOPE!

And from reading your story you are already about half way there.  Seriously, you have figured a lot of the things out so far.  We can certainly help "polish your approach" and gain a deeper understanding of what is going on.

Last night we were half way through a movie at home while she was on her phone. I asked if she would be on the phone on the cinema, she went balistic and stopped netflix on her phone hence stopping me and the children from watching the rest of the movie. I explained that the glare was bothering me, but no -  I must apologise before we can watch. I asked the chidren to leave and told her in no uncertain terms that this is not acceptable and that she cannot do that to me.

Today I refused to go out on a long drive as I do not want to be in position where she goes into a fit and makes us come back home halfway or be stuck in the car with her,  unless she reassures me that would not be the case.  

What happened two months ago that sent things into a spiral downward?

Moves are hard.  How long have you guys been planning the move?

What do your children understand about this?

What books and resources have you found helpful so far?

Look at the bolded thing in the quote.  Am I correct in assuming you did NOT apologise?

Best,

FF

[Radcliff]

You've got a complicated situation.  First things first.  The physical violence has got to stop.  I would suggest you start with this bpdfamily article on BPD and physical abuse, which also links through to this bpdfamily topic on domestic violence for men.

It's a big problem for any of this to happen, and especially if your daughters are home as you mentioned.  They are not going to be able to accurately assess the situation and know if your use of force is defensive, and if authorities ever become involved they will have difficulty discerning the truth as well.  Don't allow yourself to be injured, but don't use force to protect easily replaceable property like glasses.  Can you tell us a bit more about her violence, including things like trapping you?

RC

[FastTurtle]

Thank you Formflier and Radcliff,

It's certainly good to be heard. Will read your recommended posts.

FF I did not apologise. And we have been planning a move for a while but it will not happen till next year. I think part of the stress from my wife is that she feels that she will leave one of the things that gives her most sense of worth and identity- her job - and going to a place where the outlook is not certain.

Yesterday after I wrote the post, things escalated badly. I went to the kitchen to start cooking something for dinner and my wife had been watching a movie in the living room. She announced suddenly that she was going out with the children for dinner, calling them loudly. I told her to go if she wanted to. My eldest daughter said she did not want to go and she became very angry and started shouting and saying the usual things to her to make her feel guilty (forgot exactly   what - something in the line of 'you don't love me is it? you just want papa?)  I stood in between asking her to stop screaming and saying these things to her, she then went to find  my youngest daughter but she had locked herself in the toilet  scared of her and would not come out. she continued her rant and I tried to tell her that she cannot treat the children like this, that they are scared of her. I eventually told her to calm down and that she's not bringing the children anywhere in that state and asked the children to go into the room and listen to some music which they did.  I went away to the kitchen and tried to continue cooking - she would not let me. she would switch off the hobs and take away the pots. I kept asking her to move away from me. At one point she started throwing tomatoes and utensils and then grabbed a pair of scisors and charged at me attempting to stab me. I grabbed her arms and took it away from her. she carried on charging at me and I restrained her on the floor. she started screaming and shouting that I was trying to suffocate her and asking the children to help. One of them came in and ask us to stop fighting. (she later told me that she was worried I was hurting her).

I decided to drag her into the room so that the children could not hear her and just hold her down until she tires. In the process she grabbed my glasses and broke them (again) I let go of her as she said she was suffocating but the first thing she did was to attack me. This went on for a while with nothing I could do to appease her and getting worse with her shouting with the intent that the children hear it,  that I wanted to kill her and that I wanted a divorce and that I wanted to marry someone else in Europe - all completely unfounded. I decided it was enough and that i needed to leave with the children and told her that she can chose to behave that way but we will not stay there, she chased me at all times blocking my way I managed to lock her in the toilet and left in haste with the children worried that she would brake the door and chase after us driving. The last thing she said was that she would kill herself if I leave with the children.

I drove to her parents place which is 40min away, and in the meantime called our house helper to open the toilet door, she had already destroyed the door and asked her to leave. in the meantime she called her parents to not allow me in. They were scared of her but allowed me in because of the children.  I fed the children at her parents and left them there for the night (well past dinner time now). They tried to call her but she would not answer so I went back home. they were not very worried. I should really just call 911 but I think that would just make things worse... I had reasonable confidence that it is empty threats...  I went back home to see what the situation was. she was locked in the room and there was no evidence of pills or other medicine being taken. In the morning I knocked and called but would not get an answer - I  ended up having to break the lock to get in worrying my earlier confidence was wrong. When I eventually opened the door she was just there waiting for me quietly, no reaction. I asked her why does she do that to me?

After the children went to school (father in law brought the children back and then left, almost scared of staying any more that a minute) and I started my 1:30 drive to work she called me and we spoke most of the way. She was calmer but still very much in a fit , somewhat reasoning. Blaming me for locking her, that I have no regrets, stating that she does not want leave her job, that she does not want to leave the country and what is that I am going to do now, that I do not make her happy.   I just reinforced to her that I cannot make her happy and I will not force her to do anything and that I will still be around but I will double down in my efforts in not letting myself be in a position where I will be trapped in a position I cannot easily escape and that I will make myself happy regardless of all this, and that she is responsible for her own behaviour and to make herself happy, not me (which I think initially she could not comprehend - she wanted me to make her happy). I told her the behaviours that were not acceptable, including grabbing the scissors -  eventually she just hung up the phone when I just started reflecting and not reacting and defending to what she was telling me.

She went to work and when she came home she took some food and went into the room walking past the children and ignoring them.

The children appeared fine, almost happy. Yesterday during the drive I talked to them (as in the past) that mummy is not well, that she is ill and gets very angry but it has nothing to do with them and no matter what I or they do it would not change it. They understood, they have been through enough cycles of it to understand. We talked about she shouting that I was hurting her and that I was not. They also know that she has manipulative behavior and talked about that and how absent she has been.

My wife will now spend a few days hiding in the room and eventually start talking as if nothing happened.

I know this behaviour is BPD, not her, however she can pull herself together to go to work and act normally, so she can have some control.

How do I send a strong message while still being there for her? I should really leave even if temporarily.

But I have done so in the past, with the children, after a week she ended up begging me to get back and promised to get help only to give up after a while and things returning to what they were before, gradually. Leaving at this stage would just make me and the children more uncomfortable and miserable than we already are.

How do send a clear message after this so that I do not let is slide back to normality? - appreciate any ideas.

[formflier]

How do send a clear message after this so that I do not let is slide back to normality? - appreciate any ideas.

FastTurtle

Please read the links Radcliff provided.  Keep a word document or pen and paper with you as you read.  Make notes about what you don't understand.

Post those questions here.

It's imperative you quickly gain a better understanding of how to protect yourself and your children.

Can you do that?

Best,

FF

[FaithHopeLove]

Just poking my head in here as both the parent of a child with BPD and a former cop with experience answering 911 calls for domestic violence. Please take what Radcliff and Formflier are saying to you seriously. They know what they are talking about. I am not trying to alarm you but people do die from being stabbed with scissors and that includes situations when a woman is attacking a man. You really do need a safety plan. I am praying for you.

[FastTurtle]

It is clear to me now that I need to put together a safety plan to quickly activate if there is the danger of violence and build structures so that i can be quickly able to remove myself and the children and kill any aggravation immediately or even before it happens.

My wife seems to be putting herself together and recognises she needs to heal. She has been trying to communicate but still putting great responsibility on me, wanting to discuss with me how to prevent escalation but implying I have equal responsibility. I have been making it very clear that it is her responsibility to get herself together and then when I can see she is taking steps to get back on her feet and out of her negative spiral.

She will not apologise or admit openly she was wrong. I have over the years learned to forgive without an apology, which is good for me and I can rationalise that thinking of the behaviour as a result of an illness rather than who she is.  However I wonder if I should insist on a recognition of inappropriate behaviour and empathy about the hurt we experienced before even thinking of engaging normally. Is that a pointless thing to ask from a BPD? I am quite determined in not getting any closer until she can see things as they really were. But worried she might not be able to see it at all or be able to admit it.

I would like to hear your own experience after an event like this. I want to encourage her healing but don't want to encourage pretending nothing has happened. I have trouble with this balance.

[formflier]

It is clear to me now that I need to put together a safety plan  

Would you like our help putting together a safety plan?  Wouldn't it seems wise to focus here first?

Something to think about  for a few days.  Review your comment about "over the years" learning to forgive without an apology.

Do you think it's possible that this "policy" has "trained" your wife to understand something other than what you intended?  What are some potential messages she has learned ?

Best,

FF

[Radcliff]

I'm very concerned for you given this recent escalation.  When things get to a point where you are taking her into another room and restraining her, you've past the point where you need outside help.  Despite the fact that you've talked with your kids, they may have trouble understanding the situation, and it's certainly harmful for them to see physical conflict between their parents.  It also potentially muddies the waters with respect to what the authorities would think.  And your wife will feel victimized by your use of force, regardless of what you see as reality.    You put yourself at risk of appearing to be the aggressor.

Regarding a safety plan, one of the key aspects of a safety plan is knowing what you'll do when trouble happens, instead of having to make it up on the spot.  Is taking the kids to your in-law's house for the night something that you could do again if trouble happens?  Could you have a talk with them to prepare them for this possibility, telling that it's your plan to keep things safe?

RC

[FastTurtle]

I'm very concerned for you given this recent escalation.  When things get to a point where you are taking her into another room and restraining her, you've past the point where you need outside help.  Despite the fact that you've talked with your kids, they may have trouble understanding the situation, and it's certainly harmful for them to see physical conflict between their parents.  It also potentially muddies the waters with respect to what the authorities would think.  And your wife will feel victimized by your use of force, regardless of what you see as reality.    You put yourself at risk of appearing to be the aggressor.

Regarding a safety plan, one of the key aspects of a safety plan is knowing what you'll do when trouble happens, instead of having to make it up on the spot.  Is taking the kids to your in-law's house for the night something that you could do again if trouble happens?  Could you have a talk with them to prepare them for this possibility, telling that it's your plan to keep things safe?

RC

I agree with you radcliff . I saw myself at that moment as not having any other option other than not feed the children and wait it out, letting the children observe and hear what was going on or do what I did. In the past she has put herself in from the car and physical grab me and the the children so I was literally in "flight" mode and used the opportunity to lock her in. Typically things stabilise after a few days and I go into the illusion things are safe. They may be then but unclear for how long. And it is also not the way to live...

Anyhow the third solution is indeed to have a safety plan and not let myself be in that situation again. It's hard work to keep thinking about it when things stabilise but it needs doing. I have asked the children to pack a bag with everything they need to spend a couple of nights away and go to school and have it ready and I have left my car in a position that will make it easy to make an escape. Have my things ready to leave at all times.  I will tell her that this is the plan. I can go to my in- laws (better) or check-in to a hotel.

I have also pressed her to tell me what she will do to prevent it from ever happening again. She recognises it's wrong but her speech contains no regret. She says she will disconnect emotionally from me because I offer her no emotional support, am never there for her bla bla bla (the opposite is true). I validated her feelings and explained that I do not feel that way and gave examples of the things I have done that demonstrate otherwise I told her I do not want to live emotionally disconnected from her (independent emotionally yes, but not disconnected) and she also said that she feels an emptiness inside and I give her no support. I told her she needs to feel the hole on her own without needing me, or she will be forever disappointed...  She said she wanted to leave the home but seems to have changed her mind when I did not react. I wanted to setup a place for myself in the house where I can have my space (i have been sleeping in a matress in one of the girls bedroom) she said she didn't want to disturb the children (I wanted to move them together) and she will sleep in the living room. I am determined to keep distance from her until such time that she demonstrates true regret and responsibility for her actions without blaming it on me. That may be a while...  I have suggested that she finds her own place so that I am not at risk and so that she finds a way to be whole without being exposed to my "disconnection" and the pain I seem to inflict her...

Is this a good plan - or is there something else I should consider?

Would you like our help putting together a safety plan?  Wouldn't it seems wise to focus here first?

Something to think about  for a few days.  Review your comment about "over the years" learning to forgive without an apology.

Do you think it's possible that this "policy" has "trained" your wife to understand something other than what you intended?  What are some potential messages she has learned ?

Best,

FF

FormFlier - I think that by taking her back and accepting that she pulls out of counselling or starts engaging in unhealthy behaviour towards us without consequence or safety actions from my side, may have contributed to the state of things - that is a good reflection.   

We were recently in marriage counselling and the counsellor seemed to believe it was ok that she does not apologise or shows regret, he said that she could demonstrate regret in other ways (at one point he told me his own wife was the same...). I went along with it at the time , although I thought it was wrong i gave it a try...

I will forgive though, always, or it will corrode me inside and generate anger and hostility. But not forget  - I must learn and take action from it.

Any thoughts? Any comments on safety plan above?

Thank you both

[confusedbybdp]

Dear FastTurtle,

I hope that I am not stepping out of line by responding to your post, as I was not married to my uBPDbf, and I/we do not have children.  I realize that there are many complications in your situation that I have not faced in my life.

That said, I think it is time to remove yourself and the children from your wife.  The danger in this situation is palpable, and in my view could occur faster than you can activate a safety plan.  If your wife has rushed at you with scissors in hand, with the intention of frightening you and/or doing you bodily harm, it is only a matter of time before you or one or more of the children gets seriously injured or worse.  Your ability to overpower your wife saved you in this instance, but you cannot count on that next time.  And there will be a next time. 

Even assuming no physical injury, I cannot overstate the harm that is being done to the children (and you).  The incidents you describe are harrowing, and risk affecting them (and you) permanently.  No one will get out of this unscathed, and with their mental health intact.  I hope you can find the resources, including legal, to separate yourself and the children from your wife.

I will be thinking of and worrying about you and the children.  Again, I hope I have not offended you by commenting despite not having been in your situation. 

[FastTurtle]

Just poking my head in here as both the parent of a child with BPD and a former cop with experience answering 911 calls for domestic violence. Please take what Radcliff and Formflier are saying to you seriously. They know what they are talking about. I am not trying to alarm you but people do die from being stabbed with scissors and that includes situations when a woman is attacking a man. You really do need a safety plan. I am praying for you.

Dear FastTurtle,

I hope that I am not stepping out of line by responding to your post, as I was not married to my uBPDbf, and I/we do not have children.  I realize that there are many complications in your situation that I have not faced in my life.

That said, I think it is time to remove yourself and the children from your wife.  The danger in this situation is palpable, and in my view could occur faster than you can activate a safety plan.  If your wife has rushed at you with scissors in hand, with the intention of frightening you and/or doing you bodily harm, it is only a matter of time before you or one or more of the children gets seriously injured or worse.  Your ability to overpower your wife saved you in this instance, but you cannot count on that next time.  And there will be a next time.  

Even assuming no physical injury, I cannot overstate the harm that is being done to the children (and you).  The incidents you describe are harrowing, and risk affecting them (and you) permanently.  No one will get out of this unscathed, and with their mental health intact.  I hope you can find the resources, including legal, to separate yourself and the children from your wife.

I will be thinking of and worrying about you and the children.  Again, I hope I have not offended you by commenting despite not having been in your situation.  

Thank you FaithHopeLove and confusedbybdp - your words are wise and give me strength to protect myself and the children and not let it drift into normality. I appreciate your kind thoughts and hopes for me.

[confusedbybdp]

Dear FastTurtle,
I found your most recent comment about "not letting it drift into normality" really insightful.  To a greater or lesser extent, we probably all have done that (or may still be doing it).  In an effort to keep our relationships going and to resolve the cognitive dissonance we all experience, we minimize, deny, and attempt to normalize our partner's behavior.  Speaking for myself, it was easier to deny, minimize, and normalize than it was to accept that I needed to LEAVE!  I looked around, and no one was standing there to intervene or save me, so I had to save myself.  I knew my very life and mental health depended on it.  Perhaps this would sound melodramatic to most people, but I bet it rings true to those who have experienced a BPD relationship.  I still love and deeply miss my ex.  I fight these feelings every day because they keep me trapped in the relationship, even though it is over.  I am still trying to understand why these relationships wreak such havoc with our minds.  I know there are a lot of theories out there, and I've probably read most of them.    

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear FastTurtle-

I am very sorry for what you and your children are going through; and for the fact that your wife will not see clear to take responsibility for her dangerous and painful behavior.  As a high functioning pwBPD, as you have seen, she IS able to control her behavior at work and in the presence of others.  This “control” has always seemed to me to mean that our pwBPD didn’t really “care enough” to change for those they profess to love... but I digress...

Considering your W’s serious physical assaults (and coming AT you with scissors IS a physical assault), I too strongly encourage putting a safety plan in place.

Here’s the thing about your Safety Plan.  Your W is NOT a part of it.  You tell your wife NOTHING about your Safety Plan!  You tell your children little to nothing.  They’re too young and you don’t want them to slip and tell their mom.  You prepare “go bags” with clothing, etc and keep those bags in your office, at a friends, somewhere outside the home.  But your W knows nothing about the plan.  You ensure you’ve got access to funds, the contacts in your phone backed up to the cloud, extra car keys and a safe place to go.

I just felt it was urgent that you know this part.  Please do take care of yourself and your children.  Safety First.

If your W has no interest in admitting that her physical violence has crossed any lines and she’s unwilling to seek serious help for THAT, an “apology” for anything else is rather meaningless.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[FastTurtle]

Dear FastTurtle-

I am very sorry for what you and your children are going through; and for the fact that your wife will not see clear to take responsibility for her dangerous and painful behavior.  As a high functioning pwBPD, as you have seen, she IS able to control her behavior at work and in the presence of others.  This “control” has always seemed to me to mean that our pwBPD didn’t really “care enough” to change for those they profess to love... but I digress...

Considering your W’s serious physical assaults (and coming AT you with scissors IS a physical assault), I too strongly encourage putting a safety plan in place.

Here’s the thing about your Safety Plan.  Your W is NOT a part of it.  You tell your wife NOTHING about your Safety Plan!  You tell your children little to nothing.  They’re too young and you don’t want them to slip and tell their mom.  You prepare “go bags” with clothing, etc and keep those bags in your office, at a friends, somewhere outside the home.  But your W knows nothing about the plan.  You ensure you’ve got access to funds, the contacts in your phone backed up to the cloud, extra car keys and a safe place to go.

I just felt it was urgent that you know this part.  Please do take care of yourself and your children.  Safety First.

If your W has no interest in admitting that her physical violence has crossed any lines and she’s unwilling to seek serious help for THAT, an “apology” for anything else is rather meaningless.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Appreciate your comment Gemsforeyes - It's not easy. My thought process to tell my W about the safety plan is so that she knows and expects it,  hence having been "warned" would be less likely to put up a fight response. Yes she can to some extent control her reactions but I still see it as an illness that she has limited control over once it escalates. Even at work despite her control she can get extremely emotional to the point she needs to remove herself. If I leave her in the dark it would not help anyone as it would just increase the drama as she would not understand where I was coming from and,  I can tell you, she would put up a fight. My hope is that by activating the safety plan early enough it it would allow us to escape before it escalates to an unsafe level. The children are old enough and having been through situations like this over the years (unfortunately) can understand exactly what is happening. They need to know that her mother is ill and that we are just making ourselves safe and leaving temporarily. Not doing that would cause them even more distress, and they need to know what to do - efficiently collect the stuff they need and get into the car-  She is still their mother, they still love her and so does my W despite her illness and actions.

What is your experience with safety plan and implementing it?  - this is new to me, so I may be seeing this totally wrong.

I agree with you "if she’s unwilling to seek serious help for THAT, an “apology” for anything else is rather meaningless."  And I am determined to stay away from her until she gets some form of treatment. From what I have read and my experience with her it will be very difficult to get her to recognize having BPD or to get proper treatment, my only home is to get her to get treatment for her anger or "feelings of emptiness" and through that she gets her the treatment she needs...

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi FastTurtle-

That’s a complicated question, my experience with a Safety Plan.

I was married to an emotionally abusive man for 19 years with uNPD and BPD traits thrown in for good measure.  I didn’t really know I was in an abusive relationship.  I just knew I twisted myself inside out trying to meet his extremely high demands.  We had never truly discussed separating, there was no “fighting” and he only yelled at me once.  Things cycled rapidly the last week we were together, when he issued a “threat” that if I didn’t leave the house soon, he would begin bringing women into our marriage home.  Bear in mind we were still having intimacy.  We were still a “couple”...  I cried.

Two nights after this “threat”, I said, quietly “if we have to part, let’s not part as enemies” and he threw me across the room and into a door.  I landed on the floor in the hallway.  I was scared to death, and ran for the phone and dialed 911.  The first time he ever yelled at me was when he screamed “YOU BETTER NOT BE CALLING THE COPS”.  I hung up the phone before they answered.  The call went through anyway (thank GOD) and they showed up at the door.

He was arrested for felony domestic assault based on HIS words, not mine.  The man who always lied didn’t lie that night.

This was in 2011.  I STILL have nightmares, but not only about that night.  About the whole relationship.  And about things that happened to me when I was younger that I kept silent about because I thought that’s what my family expected.  I know that’s what my mother expects.  I wish my dad were still alive...I don’t think he’d expect my silence anymore.  But he’s been gone for 27 years.

I’m finally...finally, doing my trauma work now.  I had my 62nd birthday on Saturday.  A long time to carry some sad truths in this head.  My current BPDbf (6 years) and I process a whole lot of stuff together now.  He’s come a long way with me over this time.  I’m his “last chance” to be loved.  He’s making it worth it.  The work I do with my uBPDbf on his anger and rage is far different than Safety planning, even the one time he said “I want to deck you so bad”.  I knew he wouldn’t do that.  And now he’d never even THINK that.

The Safety Plan, in my opinion, is separate from working “with” your wife on RAGE containment and her healing herself.  The Safety Plan is NOT an ultimatum you issue to her.  I was afraid for my life that night.

I hope you can see clear to that.

We can talk further on communication tools to privately address anger issues with her during quiet times.  That’s how I started with my BF.  It took hold and made him begin his work.

I don’t mean to be harsh, my friend.  I KNOW this is hard.  I KNOW your kids love their mom.  But they love and really NEED you to lead the way through this thing.  There are things they MUST stop witnessing.  And soon.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Radcliff]

I have also pressed her to tell me what she will do to prevent it from ever happening again. She recognises it's wrong but her speech contains no regret. ...I validated her feelings and explained that I do not feel that way and gave examples of the things I have done that demonstrate otherwise...I told her she needs to feel the hole on her own without needing me, or she will be forever disappointed...  I am determined to keep distance from her until such time that she demonstrates true regret and responsibility for her actions without blaming it on me. That may be a while...  I have suggested that she finds her own place so that I am not at risk and so that she finds a way to be whole without being exposed to my "disconnection" and the pain I seem to inflict her...

Is this a good plan - or is there something else I should consider?

Looking at what you've said, especially the highlighted part above, you're actively trying to shape her behavior.  Your desire is natural.  I've been there.  The problem is that we're almost universally ineffective at controlling the behavior of others.  Our efforts tend to inflame conflict.  The other person feels controlled and rebels.  We are frustrated by our unmet expectations.  You may have read it already, but take a look again at the page on setting boundaries.  The safety plan is good.  But also lean into the relationship.  Don't use your attention as a reward for her good behavior.  Her behavior is a desperate attempt to get her needs met.  You can't meet all of them, but pulling away emotionally will just get her to be more desperate, not get her to "behave."  Does this make sense?

RC

[FastTurtle]

Looking at what you've said, especially the highlighted part above, you're actively trying to shape her behavior.  Your desire is natural.  I've been there.  The problem is that we're almost universally ineffective at controlling the behavior of others.  Our efforts tend to inflame conflict.  The other person feels controlled and rebels.  We are frustrated by our unmet expectations.  You may have read it already, but take a look again at the page on setting boundaries.  The safety plan is good.  But also lean into the relationship.  Don't use your attention as a reward for her good behavior.  Her behavior is a desperate attempt to get her needs met.  You can't meet all of them, but pulling away emotionally will just get her to be more desperate, not get her to "behave."  Does this make sense?

RC

RC what makes you think that I am trying to control her? I am determined to keep distance until such time as I feel safe, which includes being assured I am not being blamed and she is taking responsibility. She may never do it and that will be ok for me. I am focusing on what I can do and what I am not willing to accept.

I have also reflected on what you have said on previous post, if I was enabling her violent behaviour by forgiving her. I think I was and that is why I came to the realization that this is the stance I need to take. The only times I actually observed any active effort and results was when I made it very clear that I would not accept a certain type of behavior and that I would stay away and protect myself. From letting her fall and not let her drag me into her world is how I have managed to achieve some progress. When I looked at it as an illness and tried to look at her behavior just as part of the illness and ignore it, all I did was slide into normality and everything returned to what it used to be (not good).

What I am sure I do not want is living with someone who thinks I am responsible for all the problems and thinks it is justifiable to be violent. I will stand my ground until I am assured that is not the case. I am not willing to live in terror in the hope of trying to help my loved one. I will still be here to talk to her but I will not allow myself to become emotionally entangled. I cannot help her, she is the only person that can help herself and I am not going to pretend her thought patterns are ok to me. I know I can establish boundaries while still being connected to her but that means becoming totally drained physically and emotionally - she will, like a frog in warming water, seek and demand more and more from me if if we are close. I need to be on constant alert to identify and stop it and to activate a safety plan if things escalate. Being at an arms length allows me to still communicate with her without her taking me for granted.

Right now she is doing some soul searching (i think) by spending her time doing things that she loves and spending time with friends. She is also saying that the way she will prevent any violence is to let go of any expectations from me and expect me to be emotionally disconnected from her. She unable to say or even allude to, that no matter what,  violence was unacceptable and always relates it to something that I did as if there was nothing she could do to prevent it (which I know is what a BPD feels like).

I am getting confusing messages at the forum and I would like to know, if you are willing to share,  what your own experience is on the balance between keeping safe and supporting your loved one. How do you see hope if your loved one does not see the problem.

I have been 20 years into this, almost half of my life where I have been consumed by what else I can do to improve things. I reached a point where I cannot go any longer, it really affects my outlook in life and my ability to function professionally or personal objectives if I am sucked into it either day to day or on regular crisis. The only way to proceed for me is to make it clear that I see things differently and make the best I can of my life regardless of what happens. I cannot do that if I am consumed by her illness.

[FastTurtle]

I don’t mean to be harsh, my friend.  I KNOW this is hard.  I KNOW your kids love their mom.  But they love and really NEED you to lead the way through this thing.  There are things they MUST stop witnessing.  And soon.

Thank you so much for sharing your story Gemsforeyes , I am sorry for what you have been through and glad you are working through your trauma. I can relate to what you say as I have also been 20 years trying to figure out what was going one and trying to second guess myself... I will make sure I activate my safety plan before any escalation happens.

I struggle on the topic of working through her anger when my W brushes it off with some simplistic solution such as "I will not expect anything from you" while violence has not really been acknowledged. There is no possible work I can do with her if she does not see it.

Indeed the children must stop witnessing those things.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi FastTurtle-

Let me try my more important life, the one I’m living now, with my uBPDbf.  My exH was just a bad man, pure and simple.  Although the exH did finally admit he had thrown me across the room and issued an “apology” of sorts, it was empty, similar to the man.

My BF is a good man who is badly damaged.  As I said we’ve been together for 6 years and there have been breakups, always caused when I’ve sent him away following one of his RAGE explosions.  I believe those days are over (I hope).

The real change in our relationship took place when I began MY therapy in earnest and became unafraid to discuss his rage with him.  I actually asked if he was EVER truly angry at ME.  His answer after much thought was “no”.  We have “pockets” of conversations about his past.  And mine.  These pockets cannot be for hours and hours... we do it for a bit, and then we’ll switch to something funny, or sweet and loving.  We’re both kind of funny people.  We both love to laugh.

There was really something that switched in him when I entered therapy.  I’m not sure if he became scared I would leave him for good (not welcome him back).  But he somehow decided it was time to get ‘hold of himself and REALLY come to the table.  I now KNOW his full history of physical abuse.  And sadly the emotional abuse by his elderly mother continues.  He’s working on containing his emotions around that... but I’m NOT blamed.  He can now distinguish between the mother and me.

My point is, that if you can get your W to start engaging about her past, you may find a path to the present.  It was eye-opening for my BF to state that he had NEVER been angry at me.  They were not my words.  And I didn’t point him to that conclusion.  He is now really looking at his own reactions to things in a pretty honest way.

It’s not perfect.  He’ll never be the emotionally intelligent man that maybe some women marry.  I’m not easy either.  In his eyes, I’m probably a thousand different women.  I have to be on my toes, listen for his tone, watch his face, take his emotional “temperature” so to speak.  But that’s okay.  He’ll never be an “old” man, dragging his feet across the floor; he’s got a spring in his step, he’s loyal like me; we laugh and sing, cook and eat.  And we’re comfortable with each other.  It takes work, a LOT of work.  And as long as he doesn’t try to keep me from seeing the people that he “can’t stand” (which is pretty much everyone), things should be fine. 

I’m laughing at the thought that life and love have come to be so conditional.

What has your W told you of her past?  The source of her anger?  The fear of her feeling controlled or out of control?

I truly believe until you get to the bottom of it, you cannot get on top of it.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Radcliff]

Thanks for clarifying.  I may have misread your post.  You know better than any of us what your situation is.  It boils down to our underlying intent and expectations.  If we take actions to protect ourselves, without any expectation of the other person to behave appropriately, that's not controlling, and tends to be the healthy approach.  If we're explicitly or implicitly communicating an expectation that they'll change their behavior in response to our actions, that's controlling, and is just going to make things worse.  An action such as leaving the room could fall into either category depending on the situation, for example.  I think the thing that made me lean into you a bit was a worry that you might have expectations that she will change.  She may, she may not, but expecting it sets you up for pain and conflict.  I'm influenced here by my own experience -- I found it terribly difficult to keep my expectations about my partners behavior at bay.

You asked how we balance protecting ourselves with meeting the needs of our partners.  Two things come to mind:

* Moving fluidly between protecting ourselves and meeting their needs -- we protect ourselves with healthy boundaries enforced with empathy, confidence, and as little drama as possible.  At all other times, we're working to validate our partners and support them.

* Learning what's "signal" and what's "noise"; we know how to filter out the garbage in what they're saying without losing the important stuff -- another way to look at it is having a "BPD translator."  In my situation it felt like having a huge pile of sh*t thrown at me and having the patience and discipline to dig through it for a gem of truth.  For example, "You are a   and have never done anything to support me" might translate to "I feel out of control and totally unsupported right now."  My partner could also hurl a bunch of hurtful untrue things about me and in the same breath say something true about me that I needed to fix.

A huge potential pitfall is using emotional distance to protect ourselves.  It's very common for us to do, and very understandable, but the relationship just dies.  The trick is to figure out how to apply boundaries to protect our physical and emotional safety so we can function in close proximity with our mates most of the time.

Please keep coming back with questions.  This is an interactive thing, and when I was at your stage I found it pretty confusing to try to interpret what everyone was saying and figure out how the heck to apply it in turbulent real life.

RC

[FastTurtle]

Hi FastTurtle-

My BF is a good man who is badly damaged.  As I said we’ve been together for 6 years and there have been breakups, always caused when I’ve sent him away following one of his RAGE explosions.  I believe those days are over (I hope).

The real change in our relationship took place when I began MY therapy in earnest and became unafraid to discuss his rage with him.  I actually asked if he was EVER truly angry at ME.(...)
There was really something that switched in him when I entered therapy.  I’m not sure if he became scared I would leave him for good (not welcome him back).  But he somehow decided it was time to get ‘hold of himself and REALLY come to the table.  I now KNOW his full history of physical abuse.  And sadly the emotional abuse by his elderly mother continues.  He’s working on containing his emotions around that... but I’m NOT blamed.  He can now distinguish between the mother and me.

My point is, that if you can get your W to start engaging about her past, you may find a path to the present.  It was eye-opening for my BF to state that he had NEVER been angry at me.  They were not my words.  And I didn’t point him to that conclusion.  He is now really looking at his own reactions to things in a pretty honest way.

Thanks for giving me more insight into your current situation Gemsforeyes and it certainly gives me hope which is something I am short of nowadays.

My Wife is quite different , she says she feels every bit of emotion and rage at the time it is happening and it just gets over her, so I think for her what would help (if and when one day she realises and decides to do so) is to manage frustration and feelings before she gets overwhelmed and unable to control them.

You shared that your BF is dealing with the past and that is helping him. That is a very interesting avenue that I have not really thought much of. My W has certainly had a rough child hood at times, with a cheating father that destroyed things at home and would use emotional blackmail to control her and her mother such as taking away her ability to go to school because of something she did or to give the family silent treatment. Because of the cheating her mother has also tried to commit suicide and I have seen her mother treat my nieces with cruelty, and punishing them physically for menial stuff with attempt to control their behaviour,  so that may have been the case when my W was growing up.    She has shared the hurt that the father has caused her and the family  and she has a strange relationshing with him, hurt, but very protective of him as well. She gets really angry if I ever mention anything about her parents.      Unfortunately she somtimes emulates those kind of behaviours by stopping me from doing things or event stopping me from leaving the house,  or trying to punish the children in similar ways via cruel actions which is sad given the  hurt she experienced in the past.

So that may play a role on how she feels - however I cannot be her psycologist and I wouldn't  have the chance at all about talking about it as she has told me in no uncertain terms that she does not her parents to ever be brought up.

My current struggle is that I do not want to get any closer to my W  as I do not feel anything has changed and I do not feel safe. She may regret what has happened but will not show
- we are not sleeping int he same room - and don't really talk much except when we deliberately agree to meet to discuss things.  She is trying to convince me that she will let go of any expectations and that will prevent her from getting angry. I have shared that I don't thing that would be effective and hence I still do not feel safe... I have no way of influencing her, I have no intention to tell her what to do (she needs to realise that herself) and concerned that things will remain in Limbo and we drifting apart.
Despite the stress of the situation I feel somewhat good to be away from her (I feel freer and I can be myself).

[FastTurtle]

You asked how we balance protecting ourselves with meeting the needs of our partners.  Two things come to mind:

* Moving fluidly between protecting ourselves and meeting their needs -- we protect ourselves with healthy boundaries enforced with empathy, confidence, and as little drama as possible.  At all other times, we're working to validate our partners and support them.

* Learning what's "signal" and what's "noise"; we know how to filter out the garbage in what they're saying without losing the important stuff -- another way to look at it is having a "BPD translator."  In my situation it felt like having a huge pile of sh*t thrown at me and having the patience and discipline to dig through it for a gem of truth.  For example, "You are a   and have never done anything to support me" might translate to "I feel out of control and totally unsupported right now."  My partner could also hurl a bunch of hurtful untrue things about me and in the same breath say something true about me that I needed to fix.

A huge potential pitfall is using emotional distance to protect ourselves.  It's very common for us to do, and very understandable, but the relationship just dies.  The trick is to figure out how to apply boundaries to protect our physical and emotional safety so we can function in close proximity with our mates most of the time.

Thanks Radcliff  , I agree with your last statement. The problem is that I am quite overwhelmed with balancing my life and do not really have bandwidth to handle boundaries in a conscious way - I would likely fall into the trap of reacting in an instinctive what which would not help anyone. So for the time being until I am back on my feet I am staying away , even running the risk of letting the relationship die a little bit.

On the other hand I am not sure if I will ever be able to accept further violence physical or verbal and in that sense my expectation is that it does not happen again but in the understanding that she may never change.

my only choice at the moment is reconnect with her and sort of pretend it never happened - which is something I am not prepared to do.

We talked today and she still seems to be very much frustrated. She is saying that by having no expectations, everything would be fine and she would not get angry. I still do not feel safe... and I am not very hopeful for the future...

[Radcliff]

Thanks for helping us understand things.  For what it's worth, her dropping her expectations might not be a bad thing.  She seems to have some awareness of what triggers her.

I wonder if boundaries might help you feel a little safer without having to wait for her to change.  But first, can you tell us about the different ways that you feel unsafe?  I don't want to lead the witness, but for me in my situation, it was a long list.  What's most relevant for you?

RC