Plan of action

[Ray2017]

The homicidal ideations are back. My H mentioned wanting to kill kids in our daughter’s school (he said this in front of her), harming a former friend, but the one that worries me the most is when he said he was going into work on Monday, make some demands, and if those are not met “there will be violence. And that is a threat”. I had told his T about these ideations/threats in the past and he did not tell me anything to do. My T is aware of his saying things like this in the past, and the plan was that if he stated such things and then left the house, I am to call the police. But this threat is almost like an advanced plan. I can’t babysit him and trap him at home all day Monday. I also don’t want to report it to his boss or the authorities if it was said in the moment of rage and he has no plans. I absolutely do not want people to be hurt (we have no firearms - he had a secret firearms license I found out about when it was revoked by our local PD when he was impatient. I had the PD search our house to make sure there weren’t any illegal guns- they didn’t find any. He does have hunting knives). Thoughts?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Harri]

Hi Ray.

What is going on now?  Have you called anyone? 

[Ray2017]

I haven’t called anyone. This morning was a disaster- suicidal (handed me his suicide note, which was condemning all the people that “drove” him to do it) and then got mad at me when I said I wouldn’t sit by and just let him leave to end it (meaning Is call 911). He flew into a rage that I was punishing him and treating him like a child, etc. I told him that if he called his therapist and could get to a point where suicide was off the table I wouldn’t call 911. He did, and though the day had ups and downs, he was calmer. Now, whether he told his therapist the whole story, I don’t know. But there has been no more HI threats today (“just” suicide). Like I said, I don’t want to be in a situation where I could prevent someone getting hurt, but I also don’t want to report something that was just crazy talk.

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry, this is a tough situation for you to be in.  You've said in previous posts that you were reluctant to involve the PD because he works with them as a first responder, yet they've been involved before when his firearms license was revoked so the situation won't be a total surprise to them.  The police are trained to assess situations like this, and to work with the person to defuse the situation.  They understand that people get emotional and aren't always serious, but would be grateful to be called proactively instead of having to respond to a tragedy.

How are things now?  Have you talked to him about the work situation since that first conversation?

RC

[Ray2017]

Radcliffe- you make an excellent point about being proactive. You’re also right- It is complicated because of his job. When the firearms permit issue came up, the officers told me that when he came home, if he had SI again (I didn’t tell them about the HI), they’d prepare the “section” documents quickly (I don’t know how each state works, but in ours, a Section 12 is a 48 involuntary hold). That would most definitely escalate rather than deescalate. Plus, based on his experience in the hospital earlier this year, I know he would restrict my informational access and I would have no idea when he was coming home, and would feel very unsafe. . Now, if he was on his way down to his job with the intent to harm, I’m making that call, regardless of escalation, but now that he’s calmed down, I’m very hesitant.

My thought, during the night as sleep isn’t happening much right now, is to give my T a call. She has told me she’ll be go-between for me and my H’s T (my H would be very angry if I called his T directly, and tell his T I was being dramatic). That way I can get their professional advice, and still honestly say I have not spoken with his T. I also made sure I have a limited work schedule today so if it looks like he’s raging again I can take action.

He was so much calmer last night- back to normal as if none of it happened. Playing with the kids, joking around. The kids were eating it up and I did my best to put on a good face, but goodness, I feel like I have whiplash. Despite his out of control 24 hours, I was able to stay calm, limit the JADE, use SET, and maintain boundaries. I wasn’t perfect by any stretch (I’d give myself a B-), but I did way better than the time before, and the time before that. Didn’t make a lick of difference with him, but I’d like to think that the kids benefitted from having one calm parent. He’s in school the rest of the week and I’ll be sure to get self care in to help with my emotional recovery from the past couple days.

Thank you for your advice, and please keep it coming. I can use all the help I can get.

[Skip]

The police are trained to assess situations like this, and to work with the person to defuse the situation.  

We have an unusual situation in  the US, where the authorities are expected to have any dangerous people on their radar, but the laws protect everyone's right to privacy.

To adapt, many departments have added (or subcontracted) resources for the very thing you are dealing with. Since they can only go as far as the person allows them, they are trained to be "safe" and "motivating"

If you live in a very small town with a small police force, they often subcontract this work out to specialists. I know, for example, that in greater Boston area/Southern Massachusetts there is an organization called  Bay Cove that does contract work for polio departments. Bay Cove employs a staff of over 2,000 human service professionals.

I would contact the Captain or a Sargent at you local police department and see if they can get someone to engage.

I did this for someone I know casually, and the first thing they did was buy the guy a tank of gas and sat down and had a sandwich with him. He trusts them. That's how it starts.

Skip

[Ray2017]

I would contact the Captain or a Sargent at you local police department and see if they can get someone to engage.

This is really interesting to know.  My gut is that because my H is with the FD next door and they see each other every shift, they would keep this in-house.  To that extent, they know about his rage and SI, just not the HI.  I'm just afraid they'll confer with his Chief and then decide he needs to back to the program at McLean.  The program there was great, but not so helpful when the patient literally believes (and continues to do so) that everyone else is the problem.  I feel like I'm making excuses - I'm not.  As I said, if I think the threat is real and imminent there is no way on earth I wouldn't immediately call 911 and whatever consequences there are will be dealt with.  But the situation is just so tricky since the two departments are so closely involved with each other.  I do like knowing there's that resource though.

[Harri]

Hi Ray.

It is good that things calmed down a bit at least for now.  I wonder if now is the time to act however, when he is calmer and the situation is a bit less intense.  It seems that this is the time when a more positive and productive outcome is likely to happen.

To adapt, many departments have added (or subcontracted) resources for the very thing you are dealing with. Since they can only go as far as the person allows them, they are trained to be "safe" and "motivating"

When your husband was in McLean back in July (?) was his team aware of the HI? 

[Ray2017]

When your husband was in McLean back in July (?) was his team aware of the HI? 

Good point about a calm time... I just don’t know how to relay this info to the PD without him knowing it came from me, because then it definitely would NOT be a calm time again. Yes, I personally told the social worker in the short term unit at McLean about the HI, as I didn’t trust he would. I would imagine that got translated over to the inpatient program he was in-
I had almost no contact with the social worker with the inpatient program.

[Harri]

Ray, the important thing is to get him safe and the help he needs to keep everyone else safe as well.  What has been done so far has not worked, so something needs to change.

If you express your concerns about him knowing it was you, I think there would be a way for them to open dialogue with your husband without saying "So, we hear you have homicidal ideations and threatened someone at work and your child's school".   

[Birddog]

To me he is asking for help.

Another angle, any of this job related? EMT/LE watch out for each other for job related PTSD and service connected stress.

Any recent trauma triggering? Believe in VA they have both crisis line/ someone on staff specializes. with non-emergency Sheriff line, can at least talk through options. I did similar with my SO with SI/HI, resulted in her talking to resource. Other times just called for info and it didn’t escalate so I was familiar with policy/procedures, particularly for voluntary/non-voluntary, transport, restraining orders (didn’t need but nice to know)

My spouse is pretty docile, so didn’t have the same level of concerns for HI, but it was still a risk for me/ children until she was stabilized.

[Birddog]

I understand hesitation for not going to chief.

I’m thinking would it be possible to go this route to open dialogue?

Possible to ask  if any stressful calls, mention husband hasn’t been himself, and start there?

Be interested in more experienced feedback from group,”I’m still fairly new to board and don’t want to lead you astray.

[Ray2017]

Harri- you’re right- the current isn’t working. I will try and see what I can do to quietly talk with the Deputy Police Chief. I’ve met him the most out of anyone. The trick is how to meet- the only time I’m alone is when my H is at work, which is next to the PD. I’m sure I will figure it out.

It was the Fire Chief (my H’s boss) that got him into McLean and the special inpatient program, so he knows the history, or at least most of it. My H has only been cleared back to work for a few weeks and things had been going well (no traumatic calls or triggers- he’s very open with that stuff; he was diagnosed at McLean with PTSD and received a couple rounds of trauma therapy). The HI was directed towards his Captain, whom he despises. Before he was cleared to work, he requested a group change, which was denied. That has cemented in his mind that his Chief, along with his Captain, don’t have any regard for him and that’s why he essentially wants revenge, or feel the pain he feels they’ve put him through.

Bird dog- it’s interesting about HI may be related to a cry for help. I didn’t think of it that way, especially at the time- he is so consumed with rage at that moment. The SI which followed definitely seemed to be a cry for help. Though I never, ever want to hear about HI again, should it happen, I’ll have to be more observant. I’m sorry you’ve endured similar with your wife- I find it so very scary.

[Birddog]

Ray,

Not sure if call history is a concern, lot of times sherriff office can have chief deputy call to save you trip to PD. Sounds like have better handle on system than most.  For me  Seemed to go better  when PD had a bit of a heads up on what was going on rather than trying to sort out crisis on the fly.

Your situation is much different, I only saw HI when SO hit rock bottom. Glad your SO is able to do shop talk about work, gives you a little insight into his world. Has he expressed any other safety valves to cope he can use to come down other than SI/HI.

Sure this is not easy.

[Radcliff]

Ray,

How are you doing?  How is your H?  I know this is a terribly difficult situation, with no easy answers.  When we have a partner who is threatening violence against us and others, we can devote a lot of energy and become very good at assessing the threat level.  Or at least we think we are good.  Until we get it wrong.  I'm concerned about the burden you've taken on to decide whether or not the threat is real.  I know you didn't ask for that job -- it's been thrust upon you.  It has got to be terribly stressful.  I know the path is not clear yet, but I'm hoping you can imagine a day soon where you're no longer trying to figure out whether others or yourself are at risk.

RC

[Ray2017]

Thanks for checking in, Radcliff. My H has been totally normal since Sunday afternoon, like nothing ever happened. I’ve been outwardly fine, but really struggling with the past HI. I finally had the conscious thought- what if the HI turns to the kids or me and we’re right there? What stops him? If I left the marriage, how do I ever relax as I KNOW I’d be part of the HI? Spent a few days really (privately) freaked out. I talked to my T on Monday, told her everything. She is going to talk with his T and discuss the suggestion of talking to the PD. She (and I) really want to keep me out the reporting of it if at all possible. If it’s not, then I’ll have to do it and trust that the PD or their contractors keep my involvement quiet (I know they’re experts). I’ve toyed with the idea of discussing this with him directly (how nervous the HI makes me), but I don’t feel equipped to without having a plan from someone who knows what they’re doing, which brings us back to where we are (waiting on the T’s advice, which i should have tomorrow or early next week). I hope there is a day in the future I don’t have to worry about this. Not there yet, but hope can be a powerful thing.

Birddog- I know you mentioned  that the PD here could come to me... my H has cameras in and around our house so that wouldn’t work. I know he checks them when he’s not home. Otherwise that would be a great suggestion!

[Radcliff]

That is good that you're working with your T and she is going to talk to his.  It's important that you have help in dealing with this and not be isolated.  When you have a few minutes, can you take this MOSAIC risk assessment survey and let us know your score?

RC

[Ray2017]

Thank you, RC, for mentioning Mosaic.  I knew I wanted to take the assessment, but I couldn't remember the name or which thread(s) I had read here that referred to it.  I took the assessment and it was 6 out of 10. 

Thanks, also, for the continued support.  I'm trying not to be isolated, but the HI isn't something I feel like I can talk to anyone about (other than my T and here) because I know people around us would judge us both on this (him for having the HI, and me for sticking around - for now, anyway). 

[Radcliff]

Glad you found the MOSAIC test.  It's definitely hard to talk to some folks about the things we're experiencing.  That's why we're here.  How have things been going in the last few days?

RC

[Harri]

Hi Ray.   

Thanks, also, for the continued support.  I'm trying not to be isolated, but the HI isn't something I feel like I can talk to anyone about (other than my T and here) because I know people around us would judge us both on this (him for having the HI, and me for sticking around - for now, anyway).

I'm with Radcliff; definitely keep talking with us here and with your T. 

I still think it is important to get together with friends if you can.  You do not need to talk about your husband or home situation and it may actually be better for you not to.  I know how easy it is to shrink down our world when stressed or scared.  Even if you go to a movie of coffee house alone and people watch, it can help get you out of your head and calm you.

[Ray2017]

Didn’t mean to disappear- our daughter broke her arm over the weekend and we had to travel to a specialized hospital for her to be seen. She’ll be fine, thankfully, after a few weeks in a cast. It’s always something!

Ups and downs here, but mainly dysregulation, no rage. My T reached out to his T, but his T wouldn’t discuss things with her without my H’s permission, so he knows I called my T about the HI. I don’t think he was thrilled with that, but I stood my ground and said I cannot do this alone, without support from people who know what they’re doing. He verbally accepted that, not sure if he really feels ok with it, but I’m not changing my mind. I also told my T about the Mosaic results. She looked more worried after I told her the score, which made me feel disconcerted (I was worried it would be higher). She wants me to work on a Safety plan, which I am doing.

I’m trying to do meditation via the Calm app every day to help with my anxiety. It’s really, really hard to get time to myself with two kids, one of which isn’t in full time school yet, and I also work. I enjoy reading so I squeeze time in each day to do that. I really appreciate people listening here. I do have my parents, but don’t want to tell them everything, and a couple close friends have made their mind up that I need to leave NOW and I don’t want to deal with their judgment when i haven’t made my own yet, so I do feel a bit isolated. But again, this group has been incredible- it has truly made a massive difference in my life. I cannot say thank you enough.

[Radcliff]

I remember having small kids.  You've got your hands full!  Sorry to hear about the broken arm.  We got soo lucky.  Three kids, and no broken bones or stitches

That's great that you were able to tell your husband that you need the support of professionals.  That was brave, and important.  It's common for our pwBPD to feel threatened by our relationships with therapists.  I actually allowed my wife to guilt me into stopping seeing my therapist.

That's good that your therapist is encouraging you to work on a safety plan.

Do you have friends you can spend time with who are not encouraging you to leave?  Can you get the couple of friends you mentioned to let you focus on enjoying time together, and not your relationship?  Your therapist and  bpdfamily provide important components of your support network, but you need broad support, at least five different sources.  Some safe adult friends to spend in-person time with are an important type of support.

RC

[Ray2017]

Do you have friends you can spend time with who are not encouraging you to leave?  Can you get the couple of friends you mentioned to let you focus on enjoying time together, and not your relationship?  Your therapist and  bpdfamily provide important components of your support network, but you need broad support, at least five different sources.  Some safe adult friends to spend in-person time with are an important type of support.
RC

I haven't been out socially - without my H - since October, 2011 (I'm not joking).  To be completely honest, this is often from me falling on my sword in a martyr-ish way (you go out - I'll stay with the kids sort of thing).  I also don't like going out because I'm worry he'll blow up at the kids, or my time away (even a couple hours) will be used extensively in his dysregulation/rages ('See - YOU have friends and get to go out; I don't have any' that sort of thing).  These are all very unhealthy, walking on eggshell excuses and I know I need to do better for me.  Just hard to take that step mentally.   As for those friends, I know one couldn't leave it alone, and the other is married to my H's ex-friend, who rather nastily broke off the friendship with my H this summer (and is a frequent subject of HI).  But there are people I'm friendly-ish with that have absolutely no idea of what's going on.  It would certainly be easy to not talk about something they don't know about!

[Radcliff]

Alrighty, October 2011.  So we know what we're dealing with 
You are in good company.  Plenty of us have allowed our self care to sink even farther!  Yup, you can do better.  Don't worry about him using it against you in a deregulation cycle.  We need to do the healthy thing and put up with the noise.  Friends that don't have a clue sound great!

One of my mentors on this site, Tattered Heart, was great about preparing her husband when she was going to go out.  She'd plan it a week or two in advance.  She'd periodically mention it to him as the day approached so he wouldn't be surprised.  The day of, she'd give him attention before she left and upon her return.  It made a difference for her.

What plans could you hatch in the near term for your first outing?  Is a babysitter possible when he's on shift, so he wouldn't miss you?

RC