he accused me of bringing out the worst in him

[gutzgutz]

From another thread, grim's remark

Good call.  A relationship should make you comfortable, and bring out the best in you.

made me think that he often said that I was bringing out the worst in him.

This is confusing.

It happened when I was quite happily tucking away, and he thought that my presence was cluttering his space. So he went into one of the kitchen cupboards and got all the teas out of it (my teas, as he does not drink teas) and threw them all on the floor and screamed and told me that I cluttered his space and raged and told me

You are bringing the worst out in me.

Or it happened when I had a different opinion. I disagreed, but not disrespectfully and he did not like it. First he had told me that he needs support, - fine I gave this to him, but it was new to me that supporting meant to agree with everything he did.

So again, he told me that I brought the worst out in him.

I have never in my long life had a relationship with a friend, an acquaintance (and some were difficult people) or family member where anybody had ever told me that my actions, my being and my feeling or thinking brought the worst out in them.

Has anybody experienced anything like this.

I must say, at the end I was really confused, and somehow got the feeling there must be something wrong with me. I became utterly confused.

It really shook me in my foundations.

[gutzgutz]

PS and not to forget

when I started to defend myself, or telling him that this was really over the top - first trying it with reasoning - or sometimes leaving the room/the flat (the place of crime!) and finally I GOT ANGRY with his behaviour. My anger then made him say:

You are bringing the worst out in me.

[phuzion]

And in truth... .He was bringing out the worst in him.  You were just telling him how you felt or what you thought and, as a mentally healthy person, I embrace the honesty and am able to look at myself critically and understand I make mistakes that I can learn from.

My xBPDgf had similar complaints.  If you were critical or showed her something she did that challenged her integrity, she flipped into "you think I'm a monster, don't you?" or "I should just go away so everyone can be happy that I'm gone".

[gutzgutz]

You were just telling him how you felt or what you thought

It was sometimes my sheer presence  ? that brought the worst out in him, and he could not stand it if anybody had a different opinion - on the other hand he complained about people who agreed for the sake of it. I did not critisise him, I dared critisising him. I told him that I see something this way, and it was fine he saw it a different way. I sometimes said to him we have to agree that we disagree. He could not live with disagreement. Strange thing.

He then was finding fault with me. Like I did not make enough money. Or I never wanted to ride in his convertible when the roof was down. This was not true, but his mother always complained about the draft (and I even understand it, she was over 70 then). So he mistook me for his mother. Something he did at the end more and more.

You know, when he was going out with this other woman, and he was never at home, because he was either at work or seeing his girlfriend, he came back and said you are just like my mother, you are never going out. This was not true, of course, and anyway, as he was never home, he had no clue what I was doing.

So - it was - I assume now - his mother, who brought the worst out in him.

And as you phuzion, rightly state, it was he himself.

[grimalkin]

I heard the same thing.  Blame, blame, blame.  It's one of the things they do best   

Yeah, in a way, by being a normal, loving and supportive partner, they're right.  You DO bring out the worst in them.  That's the sickening truth of BPD.

Grim

[phuzion]

It was sometimes my sheer presence that brought the worst out in him

The point I was trying to make was that he is responsible for his own actions, decisions and compromises.  'Bringing out the worst in him' was something he allowed of himself.  I have met many people at work or abroad who have angered me or said some very insensitive things to me but I choose my reaction and how I approach the people to let them know what they said or did was not right for or to me, and why.

I just do not want you to put HIS reactions and choices in your court, like they were your decisions or choices for him.  :)o not own his issues with communication.  Okay?

Phuz

[seeking balance]

yes, I heard that the "wonderful" (sarcasm) behavoir was all caused my me as well.

I learned on these boards that in a way, that is true.  It is when the abandonment buttons get pushed by something real or percieved we do - they react very very strongly to survive, thus causing that charming (more sarcasm) behavior of the BPD.

[gutzgutz]

Do not own his issues with communication.  Okay?

Very helpful, clear sentence. Understood!

Thanks for this.

I am like you or any more or less normal person. If people make me angry or are rude or so, I do react but without tantrums and not in a childish way. You are right, we all are responsible for our own actions and reactions. I also understand that by telling me that I bring the worst out in him he made me responsible for his actions.

gugu

[Mojodusty]

My stbxuBPDh is relentless in his blaming.  Not once have I ever heard him take responsibility for any of his actions.  This man is never wrong, and there is nothing wrong with him.  No wonder I feel like I'm losing my mind some days.  He once tried to convince me that Mt. St. Helens was in Oregon.  Even though I lived in Washington at the time and was held up for two days because of the ash.  He will never admit the mountain is in Washington, even when looking at a map.  How bizarre, and there are many, many more incidents like this.

He recently told me that I too brought out the worst in him.  I'm a thinking the worst was always there, but now he is bringing the worst out in me.  And I don't like it  

[2010]

It's Borderline. They are tortured by a sadistic superego that is activated by your actions. That's the borderline of psychosis.

Healthy individuals have on ongoing "dialectic" between their internal and external Worlds and they cross boundaries with ease (that's the dialectic lesson plan in dialectical behavioral therapy, a.k.a. DBT.)  

Healthy people are aware of "self-other" differentiation. Borderline individuals have a pathology of "self-self" and use defensive maneuvers to repress the reality that others are separate. Borderlines use denial, avoidance and repression to a fantasy World to stem the anxiety that you are separate from them.

"Character pathology does not reflect a lack of differentiation, but rather a confusional state stemming from an automatic or unconscious attempt to stave off painful feelings by splitting and then attributing the source of subjective experience to the external world, when it is in fact, internal." (Rose, 1978)

In other words, you are "accused of bringing out the worst in him."

"Patients with a personality disorder manifest problems in consciousness. These patients are prone to confusing their experience of reality with what belongs to their inner psychic world; frequently attributing their internal conflicts to the external world, thus causing themselves great interpersonal difficulty. (Masterson, 1988)

Ogden (1990) understood this confusion as a perception being "unmediated" by subjectivity.  In other words, Borderline behavior has an objective. It doesn't matter who is subjective to the objective. What matters is the objective. Whoever is on the receiving end- will be turned into this perception of the Borderline's inner psychic World. The Borderline objective creates confusion and interferes with taking responsibility for a subjectively constructed sense of reality.  (In other words, they cannot take responsibility for what is really happening and are guided by an internal compass that is guaranteed "success improbable."

Knowing that "others are minded" (Cavell, 2003) that another person has an individual view of things, is the basis for forming a sense of reality.  Borderlines exist in self-self mode, they do not allow for "others" interpretation of reality. Hence, theirs is a fantasy World where they are captive and kept in a constant bondage and have only splitting of themselves and others to help them move back and forth in rewarding and withdrawing behaviors.  The dysregulation of emotions occurs from the frustrations of living "on the Borderline."

It is Borderline thought disorder. You cannot cure it, you cannot control it and you most certainly didn't cause it.  

[3rdID]

Yet another thing my BPDw has said to me. YOU BRING OUT THE WORST IN ME!  And the blaming for everything and anything.

[3rdID]

2010 you seem to have a lot of clinical knowledge about BPD. So they ever settle down? Why does my 50 yr old wife seem to be getting much worse as she ages? Does menopause make BPD worse? If, so when menopause has run its course do they begin to improve at all?

[2010]

So they ever settle down?

It's an attachment disorder. She attached to you. The disorder part is that she feels captive, in bondage and you are a sadistic slave master. A part of her wanted you to take care of her. The thinking being that with the safety you provided, she could be her own person. She married, she had children. Everything she has accomplished now hinges on another "self" which has subsumed her. Her fear of annihilation (of not existing) is heightened by "self" representations withdrawing. These "self" representations used to be rewarding. Now, they are withdrawing. The children are growing, they are coming and going- you are coming and going, nothing is as rewarding as it used to be. The only way to stem off the anxiety is to seek new reward.

[gutzgutz]

2010

Healthy individuals have on ongoing "dialectic" between their internal and external Worlds and they cross boundaries with ease (that's the dialectic lesson plan in dialectical behavioral therapy, a.k.a. DBT.)

This is interesting. For example he could not cope with doubt. He said don't put doubt into my mind, when I had a different opinion. It made him crazy.

He also told me that when I would not be existent or near him, then he would not get angry with me and he would not have to tell me that I brought the worst out in him. Strange logical thought, but still logical thought.

In a way, he had to erase me, as he could not cope with the other (me).

This is really interesting, because the relationship with him made me look into Julia Kristeva's 'Strangers to ourselves' and the idea of the foreigner (stranger, other) as somebody who might have to be annihilated.

Quote Kristeva:

‘The foreigner comes in when the consciousness of my difference arises, and he disappears when we all acknowledge ourselves as foreigners, unamenable to bonds and communities.’

I also looked into Nietzsche's 'Strangers to ourselves'. Ken Gemes, Birbeck College London, says:

For Nietzsche, we are strangers to ourselves not

just in the sense that we lack knowledge about our deeper motivations, but in

the more profound sense that we our estranged from ourselves in that we

contain drives and affects that our split of from each other

This is just a short introduction and there is far more depth to this ... .

I tried to understand him and his motives and stay alive and genuine in the relationship. I had loved my ex and I saw his fights and his unhappiness and his occasional joy and his struggle. I do understand struggle, I underestimated the destructivity of this PD. I did not realise that I would succumb to his manipulation and it would literally eat me up.

I have - like so many of you - never suffered that much during the breakdown of a relationship. It is truly horrible.

[3rdID]

It's an attachment disorder. She attached to you. The disorder part is that she feels captive, in bondage and you are a sadistic slave master. A part of her wanted you to take care of her. The thinking being that with the safety you provided, she could be her own person. She married, she had children. Everything she has accomplished now hinges on another "self" which has subsumed her. Her fear of annihilation (of not existing) is heightened by "self" representations withdrawing. These "self" representations used to be rewarding. Now, they are withdrawing. The children are growing, they are coming and going- you are coming and going, nothing is as rewarding as it used to be. The only way to stem off the anxiety is to seek new reward.

2010, what happens if or when they find out the new reward is really no reward at all?

[gutzgutz]

2010, what happens if or when they find out the new reward is really no reward at all?

I would like to know, too.

My ex told me that he is never happy, that he will never be happy, that he cannot be on his own, that he is bored and empty, that he does not know who he is.

It seemed to me that he already put a sell-by date on his new relationship. Made me wonder, if I had outstayed mine.

[2010]

what happens if or when they find out the new reward is really no reward at all?

Keep looking. Keep seeking new reward. Disordered logic = fantasy World = reality of argumentum ad nauseam from others.  

To a Borderline, reward exists- out there, until there is here and here is no longer rewarding.

Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat times infinity... .to the moon, Alice!

(sorry, I couldn't resist that last part. my bad.)

p.s. It's the *longing* for love, the "longing" for reward that keeps a Borderline in motion.  That happens because earlier reward objects are withdrawing. The Borderline lives in two parts; rewarding and withdrawing and they think everyone is like that too. That is their part-selves, good/bad that they swing back and forth in splitting. They do this to themselves, they subsume others in the same way. So if they think you are withdrawing- they think they are bad. They also think you are bad. They now need to stop feeling bad and they search for good. That way they can feel good. When they find good, they feel good, but the bad part is in remission up until it is activated. At that point, you are split bad and they are bad as well. So it's off to seek another representation of good.

The longing for good is a defuse, emotional state (like a runner's high) that exists when they have the finish line in sight. The finish line is very rewarding- but like an ever expanding hallway, the finish line can never be crossed. It becomes shameful to them that they seek out this representation of reward that keeps out of reach. It's at that point that they start looking for reward elsewhere.

The person or thing that holds the prospect of the reward (that magical finishing line) is where the Borderline directs their attention. When they re-direct their effort at reaching for it- the anxiety begins again about its withdrawal- the Borderline becomes anxious and figures that if one reward is good, then several at the same time is better. The task then begins to categorize and officiate the rewards. This confuses their attempts (and relationships) further by bringing in tangled possibilities of reward. None of these ever pan out.  This doesn't stop the romance and fantasy of the reward.

It is the "longing" for the reward that is the thought disorder, not the reward.  (The reward is not at fault for being unrewarding.)

[3rdID]

2010, one last question please? Dont mean to hijack this thread. Sorry all.

Why would my wife want to go ahead and divorce me yet request that we begin dating after divorce? Of course I know the obvious possible reasons ie... .keep me tied in, wanting her cake and eat it too etc etc, but I want to understand the pathology in this. I find it so unusual that a person wanting a divorce would then want to assume a dating/sexual relationship with ex, upon a divorce. I attempted to initiate sex this morning (No I wasnt a jerk about it) I was curious as to reaction. Her response was that she didn't think it would be a good idea right now. I let it go at that but wonder why not right now? Why after divorce? Its bizarre to me.

[gutzgutz]

2010, one last question please? Dont mean to hijack this thread. Sorry all.

Bad boy, you bring the worst out in me 

Only kidding

[2010]

Oops, sorry- I added on with a post script to the last post.

[gutzgutz]

At that point, you are split bad and they are bad as well. So it's off to seek another representation of good.

Fantasy land

He had told me - before I left - that I was such a good person and the most healthy and normal girl friend he ever had.

He also told me that I was too good for him.

And he told me that he looked for somebody who was exciting, because as I was healthy (which I think I was not anymore, I was depressed and worn out) I was not exciting.

He thrives on drama.

I have my drama by doing my art, by doing rewarding and exciting things, discussing exciting topics, doing things together - I do not like destructive dramas (there are enough anyway, death of parents, job loss, etc. )

Drama does not mean liveliness.

I think this is what my ex misunderstood.

He was one o the most frozen people I knew. He often had this mask face. His grinning was often frozen or he broke out in hysterical laughter. He is not a guy who can smile with his eyes.

So - actually- at the end I was the virgin mary - whiter than white, and because of this incredible brightness he could not be together with me.

Besides this there was the fact, that he said that he did not love me.

He was so full of guilt and told me that it was all his fault.

But don't worry, I got an email from him:

Getting a bit lost on just what I did say or mean - too many double takes.

He cannot remember if I am black, white, green or orange.

And out of sight is out of mind.

When I was not present, he kind of forgot about me.

If he was not present, he still was present, he was my boyfriend, partner, lover, the person I loved and had a connection with.

[2010]

Why would my wife want to go ahead and divorce me yet request that we begin dating after divorce? Of course I know the obvious possible reasons ie... .keep me tied in, wanting her cake and eat it too etc etc, but I want to understand the pathology in this. I find it so unusual that a person wanting a divorce would then want to assume a dating/sexual relationship with ex, upon a divorce. I attempted to initiate sex this morning (No I wasnt a jerk about it) I was curious as to reaction. Her response was that she didn't think it would be a good idea right now. I let it go at that but wonder why not right now? Why after divorce? Its bizarre to me.

Her valuation of herself depends on others valuation of her. At this point, this isn't about intimacy- it isn't about want- it's about need.  We all want to feel needed but Borderline personality disorder is an attachment need that creates tremendous anxiety.  The offering of sex is a valuation to offset anxiety. The anxiety from going out in the World alone.  The valuation of sex has worked before- and the offering of it after a divorce is how she sees herself as safe while she explores the World for other rewards.  Keeping you close with the offer of sex eliminates the withdrawing object she perceives you to be. It's a way to keep you on the back burner. Eventually you may have neighbors there.

Borderline PD is an attachment disorder.  That means they attach and use the attachment to re-work their ideas of reference about the World.  Those ideas of reference were taught at a very early age.

Borderline occurs very early in what is called the pre-oedipal period. That's the age of 18 months to 3 years. It is pre-verbal when tiny brains are starting to get the hang of pronouns, such as "I," "me," and "you."

A Borderline is taught that "me and you together equals I."

Borderline is a failure to separate/individuate from Mother- Mother triangulated her infant with the World. Mother passed along her anxiety about the World so that it became almost like a third person. Reality was changed by Mother to become the fantasy of a fused unit (you and me = I) against the World.  When the Borderline grows up, she takes with her the information that the World is a very scary place and she must find her valuation to be protected. She will seek out strong personalities to replicate this bondage of you and me = I. She will then spend most of her adult life attached or in the process of attaching to mother figures like a barnacle.  This causes her to try to detach and fail- suffering enough anxiety to return to former hosts that will provide protection.

Those mother figures reside in her mind as cruel and unjust, on one side disallowing her expansion and on the other, providing her with protection she knows she needs.  This is all hidden until the Borderline begins to act out again. The Borderline begins a series of clinging/distancing maneuvers that go nowhere to solve the bondage they feel.  We want to help, so we allow it at first. When we begin to shake our heads at the illogical thought processes- it's time to get some help. Not for the Borderline- but for ourselves.  

Borderline personality disorder is a pattern of behavior.  The discovery of this means that the protective side in all of us is not necessarily as important as our failure to see the pattern of the disorder. Once you see the pattern, you will begin to understand that this is a systemic root problem that's not going to go away with our help and you have to put boundaries in place to effectively stop participation in their wild ideas of reference.

[3rdID]

2010. All I can say is wow! If your not a professional you should be. Thank you for articulating in the way you have. Reading the clinical description of what I'm dealing with somehow helps. My wife definitely has issues from childhood.  Never to he discussed but she told me once.  Her mom had some issues.  I think she could easily have been BPD. It makes a lot of sense.