unconditional love

[Mike-X]

I am looking for stories, insights, links, books, movies, etc. on unconditional love and loving your self. Please share anything that you have. Thanks.

I listened to the following this morning. A little humor, human struggles, and lots to ponder... .

www.youtu.be/xb_37R_tEps

[Achaya]

Marsha Linehan (founder of DBT) on unconditional love in the therapy relationship:

     

      " Generally, the therapist points out quickly that there is no such thing as unconditional positive regard or unconditional love. …Given       the right behaviors, any patient can cause a therapist to reject her." (Page 134, Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder)

[eeks]

Marsha Linehan (founder of DBT) on unconditional love in the therapy relationship:

     

     " Generally, the therapist points out quickly that there is no such thing as unconditional positive regard or unconditional love. …Given       the right behaviors, any patient can cause a therapist to reject her." (Page 134, Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder)

I don't know the context of this quote, but I'm not sure if I agree with this.  Let's say the patient physically assaults the therapist.  The therapist might then decide to terminate therapy with that client... .but is that "rejection"?  Is the therapist setting boundaries in this way, proof of the nonexistence of unconditional love?  

One of the premises of Nonviolent Communication is that even violence is a tragic attempt by a person to get their needs met.  To me, "unconditional positive regard" doesn't mean you let a person behave however they want, whenever they want, or that you approve of their behaviours, but that you see that no matter how self- or other-destructive what a person is doing is, it is always an attempt at meeting some universal human need.  

Even if you take issue with the use of the word "need" (go ahead and substitute interests/desires/values, I personally am not stuck on the terminology) if you really pay attention you will probably find the same need/want/interest/value in yourself as well.

And so you can imagine a person making a decision about someone else from the perspective of "that nutcase, not touching her with a 10 foot pole", but the very same actions towards that person would have, in my opinion, a totally different quality if made from a standpoint of "This person is trying to get her needs met, probably she wants control so that she can have security and/or nurturance, she attempted to meet that need in a way that infringes on my need for physical safety... ." etc.  you get the idea.

Of course if you follow my reasoning you could argue that it leads us into sticky topics that start to look like "love the sinner, hate the sin", and where do you draw the line?  Is it possible to love someone unconditionally without condoning their behaviour?  approval, allowance... .what is the overall characteristic, the theme or mood, of one's own reaction to violence of any type or severity, if one is unconditionally loving?

I do think Nonviolent Communication is a useful resource though because (although it's been critiqued for some pretty valid reasons) in my experience it gets to the nuts and bolts of what self-acceptance looks like in the moment, free of vague maudlin pronouncements like "treat yourself like you are your own best friend" (where, if you're not doing that already, how are you supposed to conjure up that particular emotional attitude out of nowhere just because it sounds nice)

[eeks]

I also think that it is not possible not to love yourself.  I know I'm going against the current self-development memes, but there it is.

Even if you limit yourself out of fear, that has loving intentions, because that is your nervous system's trauma defenses protecting you from something that was dangerous in the past, a situation that you couldn't resolve in the past so you'd better keep avoiding it in the present.

So in my view, in the case of trauma, abuse or dysfunctional family background (leading to adult issues with relationships), it's not so much that you don't love yourself, it's that it feels unsafe to stop protecting yourself.  You may not agree with this, but at least ponder it for a bit first. 

[fromheeltoheal]

I also think that it is not possible not to love yourself.  I know I'm going against the current self-development memes, but there it is.

Even if you limit yourself out of fear, that has loving intentions, because that is your nervous system's trauma defenses protecting you from something that was dangerous in the past, a situation that you couldn't resolve in the past so you'd better keep avoiding it in the present.

So in my view, in the case of trauma, abuse or dysfunctional family background (leading to adult issues with relationships), it's not so much that you don't love yourself, it's that it feels unsafe to stop protecting yourself.  You may not agree with this, but at least ponder it for a bit first. 

Interesting take eeks.  I don't know how I feel about likening self-love to self-preservation, and it's something to think about.

it feels unsafe to stop protecting yourself

This does make me think of getting into new relationships.  They call it falling in love, not walking into it or driving into it, and falling by definition includes lack of control, a letting go of that protective impulse; are we falling or flying?  Hard to say sometimes.  And the source of many musings: 'in order to grow we need to venture outside our comfort zone, that's where the juice is', 'no pain no gain' (yikes!), 'is it better to have loved and lost or to never have loved at all?'

Anyway.  Regarding self love, a cool thing to try is to look yourself in the eyes in a mirror and say 'I love you' and mean it.  Weird at first, and the more sincere and deliberate you are the weirder it is, but the more you go there the better it feels later.  We can chat about love, but what if love is an action?

[Achaya]

Marsha Linehan (founder of DBT) on unconditional love in the therapy relationship:

     

     " Generally, the therapist points out quickly that there is no such thing as unconditional positive regard or unconditional love. …Given       the right behaviors, any patient can cause a therapist to reject her." (Page 134, Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder)

I don't know the context of this quote, but I'm not sure if I agree with this.  Let's say the patient physically assaults the therapist.  The therapist might then decide to terminate therapy with that client... .but is that "rejection"?  Is the therapist setting boundaries in this way, proof of the nonexistence of unconditional love?  

I think that Nonviolent Communication is a very interesting practice, Eeks.

The context of the Linehan quote is that pwBPDs get into very stormy relationships with their therapists as well as their romantic partners. Apparently they are just as adept at upsetting and enraging the therapists, and they commonly have histories of being abruptly thrown out of therapy or out of inpatient units. Linehan writes that when she first started working with pwBPDs she mostly saw patients whose interpersonal behavior was so destructive that they had been rejected by more than one therapist. She created a specialty out of providing remedial therapy for BPD patients that would enable them to act decently enough to participate in therapy. She would then refer them on. That isn't how DBT works anymore; they take a full range of BPD patients as well as others.

My understanding is not that she was not talking about therapists setting a calm limit--she was talking about rejection with all the associated emotions on both sides. She does, however, also emphasize limits, rewards and punishments in her approach. These would also be considered "conditions of treatment" but perhaps not conditional with respect to general acceptance of the patient as a person.

While I admire the Nonviolent Communication concepts, I doubt that a human being in any setting can claim to be able to provide unconditional love to another person. This presumes that the person would have so much control of herself/himself as to never react with rage, rejecting behavior, even hatred when provoked or wounded by another person. People with BPD do have a talent for getting under peoples' skin, pushing their buttons, and so on. I find it to be perfectionistic and judgmental to expect a person to be "constructive," rational, in control, etc. in all situations. If we are talking about unconditional acceptance of self and others, the acceptance then has to include the instances in which a lover, therapist, or whoever, responds with rage, hurt and rejecting behaviors to someone who abuses them.  

[jhkbuzz]

We can chat about love, but what if love is an action?

Interesting thought.  In the Greek language there are four different words for love: philos is a brotherly love, eros is erotic love, storge is the love between family members, and agape, which is considered the highest form of love.  My pastor described agape love as "a commitment of the will to meet the needs of another person."  This commitment doesn't have to be accompanied by emotions or "feelings" of love.  It is, by definition, love in action.

[going places]

We can chat about love, but what if love is an action?

Interesting thought.  In the Greek language there are four different words for love: philos is a brotherly love, eros is erotic love, storge is the love between family members, and agape, which is considered the highest form of love.  My pastor described agape love as "a commitment of the will to meet the needs of another person."  This commitment doesn't have to be accompanied by emotions or "feelings" of love.  It is, by definition, love in action.

Scripture speaks, and explains, "Love"

1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Love is patient, love is kind.

It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love, never fails.

Agape Love is the Love that God has for us... .it is what we strive for, but in our humanness, it is unobtainable.

"Unconditional love" without boundaries, opens one up for abuse, misuse, and hollows your soul.

If I loved my spouse/SO, etc so much that i allowed them free run in my head and heart; that he could do whatever he pleased, with whom ever he please, that he could treat me how ever he pleased; and I was left feeling empty, hollow, hurt, unloved, mistreated, neglected, etc?

THAT is not love.

Love is not this warm fuzzy feeling that the Hallmark Cards describe.

It is not what Disney portrays in its movies.

It certainly is not 50 Shades of Grey.

Feelings come and go.

True, real Love... .is verb. It is an action.

[Mike-X]

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. Here is a video of two therapists discussing unconditional love, and I think capture aspects of some of the difference that have been expressed so far:

www.youtu.be/px4NykjgXKk

[Mike-X]

Here is more food for thought... .

www.youtu.be/uXbe0ekBp8Y

[Achaya]

Mike, would you perhaps be willing to share why you posted the thread on this subject? I am noticing that this subject does feel important to me in thinking about how I want to conduct my relationships in the future. What is the importance of the question about the existence or nonexistence of unconditional love to you?

[going places]

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. Here is a video of two therapists discussing unconditional love, and I think capture aspects of some of the difference that have been expressed so far:

www.youtu.be/px4NykjgXKk

Here is more food for thought... .

www.youtu.be/uXbe0ekBp8Y

MikeX, I watched both videos... .

For me, personally, I know I am loved. I am a Believer... .and Scripture says, over and over and over, how much, I am loved.

Honestly, if I had not known the Lord, and Trusted Him as my Lord, and Savior... .

I would have ended my life. No dramatic effect; I would not have been able to cope.

When I was in the middle of the mess, I begged God to make it stop; but now that I am on the other side of the mess (it was 3 years of mess, it has been 4 months POST mess) I can see the lessons He was teaching me; how He was preparing me for new things, better things, amazing things... .

I am loved. I am worthy. I have an individual meaning and purpose.

No other human being has the power to 'validate' or 'invalidate' those truths.

[cosmonaut]

Unconditional love exists and God is perfect unconditional love.  Thus, I do believe the Holy Bible is the ultimate reference, most particularly the Gospels and the perfect example of Christ.

Another book that means a lot to me is The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoyevsky.  The following quote is wonderful and I think a great pathway to universal unconditional love of all God's creation:

“Love all God’s creation, both the whole and every grain of sand. Love every leaf, every ray of light. Love the animals, love the plants, love each separate thing. If thou love each thing thou wilt perceive the mystery of God in all; and when once thou perceive this, thou wilt thenceforward grow every day to a fuller understanding of it: until thou come at last to love the whole world with a love that will then be all-embracing and universal.”

[Achaya]

Can anyone provide an example of a real living person, a specific human being with a name, who loves unconditionally on a consistent basis? (Can you document that this person is/was unconditionally loving to everyone in his/her personal life---a lot of "saints" are not so saintly at home).

Can we define "unconditional love" more precisely? Does it mean that I would always feel the same emotion towards another person? (I would argue that this never happens in any relationship. There is a wide range of feelings in long term relationships, including indifference, irritation, disgust, and wanting to get away from the partner).

If I hate you, for a week or a year, does that still mean I love you unconditionally? If I want revenge or wish that you suffer some pain, is that part "unconditional love"?

What decisions would emerge from "unconditional love" when there are the inevitable conflicts of interest in a relationship? If I choose myself over you, forcing you to suffer disappointment, discomfort, abject grief, or even death, can I say that I love you unconditionally in that moment?

Does the person on the receiving end of our "unconditional love" need to perceive it that way for it to be what we claim it to be? For example, if you are a drug addict invading my home and I shoot you, will it matter to him that I shot him "in love"?

A British psychoanalyst named Donald Winnicott proposed that there is a phenomenon he called "objective hatred." He gives examples of parents and foster parents who hated their children temporarily or even permanently in response to child behaviors that were intolerable. His point is that the hatred was the response that was most natural and matched the intensity of the provocation. One might suppose further that the parents of the intolerable foster child were unable to keep him, returned him to the orphanage, and did not miss him thereafter. Does this mean they never loved him "unconditionally"?

Bottom line: How do you know when you are "loving conditionally"? What are the tests?

[Trog]

Aren't these two a contradiction? Loving unconditionally and loving yourself? Surely they only go together if we are talking about unconditional love OF yourself?

I can't name a single person who loves unconditionally. Am I supposed to be able to? If I abused and hurt my mother over and over she would eventually cut me off, as she should!

The only person I love unconditionally is myself.

[Achaya]

Aren't these two a contradiction? Loving unconditionally and loving yourself? Surely they only go together if we are talking about unconditional love OF yourself?

I can't name a single person who loves unconditionally. Am I supposed to be able to? If I abused and hurt my mother over and over she would eventually cut me off, as she should!

The only person I love unconditionally is myself.

Ditto, Trog. If you have achieved something you can call unconditional love of yourself you are a lot farther along in your healing than I am. I would be thrilled if I could give myself a fraction of what I gave my partner.

Like you, I ask the question "Am I supposed to be able to?" Why or why not? What bothers me most about talk of unconditional love are the moral judgments that inevitably follow when people try to achieve unrealistic states of mind, then fail at it. I think that the ideal of unconditional love is based on a judgment to start with, a judgment that loving in a human way isn't good enough.

I am not a member of any formal religion, but was exposed to Christian teachings as a child in a German-American Lutheran family. I was very struck by the Gospel story in which Peter hit the other guy back rather than turning his cheek. The story was presented in Sunday School as an example of how Peter let his passions get the better of him and thereby "failed" to follow Jesus's example. I was incensed as a child, hearing this teaching. I was with Peter!

Please note that my user name is that of an Amazon warrior.

[fromheeltoheal]

I think it boils down to what do you mean by conditional?  I make peace with it by realizing I can love someone but not like them much at certain times, and I'm good with that.  Now me?  I could say I have an unconditional sense of self-preservation, but then what about the self-destructive behaviors I've engaged in?  I suppose I justified them by minimizing the destructiveness, and really, weren't those misguided attempts to love myself?  I didn't feel good, I got drunk, it made me feel better, until it didn't; wouldn't we want someone we love to feel better and do what we can to help?

But dogs?  :)ogs love unconditionally, no question.

[boatman]

Hi everyone-

My take is this. We all ARE unconditional love. In terms of people, this is best experienced by looking into the eyes of a newborn. We do not love the baby unconditionally nor does the baby love us unconditionally. We see in the baby what we intuitively know ourselves to be, unconditional love. Being with a baby helps us become aware of that which we are. I've also had similar experiences with animals such as dogs.

[Achaya]

Hi everyone-

My take is this. We all ARE unconditional love. In terms of people, this is best experienced by looking into the eyes of a newborn. We do not love the baby unconditionally nor does the baby love us unconditionally. We see in the baby what we intuitively know ourselves to be, unconditional love. Being with a baby helps us become aware of that which we are. I've also had similar experiences with animals such as dogs.

I certainly agree about dogs. I don't know why so many people think that human beings are the most evolved species.

[boatman]

I certainly agree about dogs. I don't know why so many people think that human beings are the most evolved species.

Dogs are much more spiritually and psychologically evolved than we are. If you bring a dog into a room of people, the dog will tell you how everyone in the room is feeling.

[Trog]

I certainly agree about dogs. I don't know why so many people think that human beings are the most evolved species.

Dogs are much more spiritually and psychologically evolved than we are. If you bring a dog into a room of people, the dog will tell you how everyone in the room is feeling.

They are skilled in non verbal communication and vigilant. Caretakers are also uncanny at managing the explosions of their BPD exes. All codependents I know love dogs, probably because we have so much in common!

[once removed]

on the subject of religion, and in particular the corinthians definition of love:

i believe, in absolute terms, in that definition of love. if you are a religious person, you know all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. you know that christ achieved perfection, and you also know that no other human being can or ever will. in spite of this, the bible encourages us to try. it sets the standard to obtain while telling us we will never achieve it; we try anyway.

i think the same applies for this definition of love. it is a perfect definition of love. human beings with the exception of christ are imperfect. we may never achieve "unconditional love", but we have seen the standard, and in so doing, are commanded to ever attempt to achieve it.

[boatman]

i think the same applies for this definition of love. it is a perfect definition of love. human beings with the exception of christ are imperfect. we may never achieve "unconditional love", but we have seen the standard, and in so doing, are commanded to ever attempt to achieve it.

Can you explain more what you mean? How do you define perfection and why will human beings never "achieve" it?

Thanks 

[fromheeltoheal]

Setting something unobtainable as the goal is disempowering.  Better to revel in our imperfection and label that perfect.

[once removed]

i think the same applies for this definition of love. it is a perfect definition of love. human beings with the exception of christ are imperfect. we may never achieve "unconditional love", but we have seen the standard, and in so doing, are commanded to ever attempt to achieve it.

Can you explain more what you mean? How do you define perfection and why will human beings never "achieve" it?

Thanks  

hey boatman, i was coming strictly from a biblical perspective, in response to some of the religious discussion. the bible says that christ is perfect, and "all have fallen short of the glory of god", suggesting we will never be perfect like christ, yet we are commanded to try.

i dont think you need to even bring in religion to believe human beings arent perfect and never will be. but we can always change and improve ourselves, and should.

"Love is patient, love is kind.

It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love, never fails."

thats a standard. id call it a perfect one. human beings are capable of love, certainly, but as imperfect creatures, can we always love perfectly or unconditionally? i dunno. my love isnt perfect. i can love someone and still fall short of the definition above sometimes. so in other words, my definition of perfection is mostly irrelevant. i do subscribe to the bible, so in a religious context, i define christ as perfect. why will human beings never achieve it? from a religious context, because "we are all sinners". in general, because we are human and prone to all kinds of error, examples too numerous to name.

[Achaya]

One of the problems for me in the idea of "unconditional love" is that self-preservation always limits what we can give or even fully feel for another person while we are in a relationship. Sure, there are people who choose to risk or sacrifice their lives for someone else. But unless we are willing to do that in every conflict between our own interests and that of others, we are going to be limiting our support of the other person. And if we are limiting our support, we are imposing conditions on the relationship. If we say that "love doesn't necessarily mean we stay in that relationship" I think then we are pushing the definition of love towards an abstract idea with no grounding in real daily interactions. It is easy to claim that one loves someone unconditionally when there is no longer any contact. In that case, one is no longer exposed to the conflicts of interest that inevitably challenge ones ability to even like the other person on a constant basis.

I have found it far more useful to accept that we all live with the tension created by competing self-interests in the context of relationship and community. Facing those conflicts honestly and clarifying my conditions for being in a relationship has fostered a lot more growth for me than pretending that I don't have conditions. I think that it ultimately makes it more possible for me to be constructive in the day to day negotiations between my interests and those of another person.

[cosmonaut]

That's just it, unconditional love isn't concerned with self preservation.  It is entirely selfless.  There is no room for selfishness in unconditional love.  Jesus showed us His unconditional love during the Passion.  He wasn't concerned with saving Himself - He gave of Himself completely for our salvation.  This is complete and perfect unconditional love.  There is no other perfect example.  All of us love imperfectly, but we can always strive towards unconditional love.  It is in the striving we prove ourselves.

We can seek to love our partners unconditionally, and I would suggest it is the only path to true freedom.  When we love them unconditionally, we accept them as they are.  We love them despite whatever happened.  We understand that they are sick and they do the best that they can with the terrible burden they carry.  We let them go with love.  We wish them well and sincerely hope for them.  This is entirely possible, and something I very much hope to achieve.  I love my ex.  I want the best for her.  I am no longer concerned with getting her back for my own selfish needs and to return to soothing my own core wounds.  I let her go with love.

It's easy to get hung up on ourselves and that's how we get stuck.  We demand a return of our partner to soothe the core wounds inside of us.  We rage against them for their failure to soothe us, just as they rage against us for our failure to make them whole and soothe them.  We exit this by realizing that this isn't really about them.  They are disordered.  They are doing what their disorder demands.  If we love them unconditionally, we understand and accept this reality.  And in doing so, we set ourselves free too.

[Allmessedup]

Cosmonaut:  that is so exactly true and beautifully put!  It is not about them... .it's about ourselves.

Thank you for sharing!

Amu