Has he left me this time?

[mitti]

Meanwhile I am currently trying to make a decision whether to stay or leave, it seems my uBPD(x)bf, might possibly have cut me out of his life again. And I have no idea how I feel about it. We have been going through so much turbulence and chaos for such a long time. We were both in T and we were both making so much progress and then we had a huge crisis mid-Autumn and then bit by bit everything started falling apart. He excluded me more and more from every area in his life. Over Xmas we had yet another drama and I told him I couldn't do it any more. But we have kept seeing each other, the difference being that neither one of us knows where we or the other stand. We also do have some issues we haven't been able to solve which is at the bottom of all of the recent chaos.

A week ago I asked if we could talk. He suggested the weekend. Friday he said he was busy. Saturday I called him but there was no reply. I sent him a text to ask if he was OK. No reply.

Sine we got back together about 18 months ago, there have been other "time-outs" where we didn't see each other for a few days, perhaps a week or two weeks but it was either after a heated argument with LC or an agreed-upon short break. He has also been extremely good with calling me back making sure I don't feel he has left me again. This time feels different. Perhaps it is not, perhaps I am different.

We had talked about taking a trip together. I have now booked a trip to go skiing by myself leaving Friday. I am excited about it but it also feels daunting to go on my own. It's going to be a long drive and I am worried I will feel lonely all alone in the mountains.

Anyway, the decision may have been made for me… perhaps it is easier that way? I am worried how I will feel when it sinks in he's gone, if that's the case.

[Lady31]

He may be avoiding the "talk" bc he is afraid of what you are going to say.  Maybe he thinks you are abandoning him.

[patientandclear]

I think that theory is plausible too.  I read a comment by a pwBPD once who advised non-BPD partners never to say "we need to talk."  Because she imagined the worst.

When I have suggested to my pwBPD that there's some issue we need to address, he gets incredibly tense and anxious, so I've learned to say "nothing bad," or "nothing's wrong."  It really, really helps.

I get that you cannot quite say that here, but perhaps it would help him to have more information (unless you already provided that) about where you are going in this conversation, as long as it is positive information, i.e., you want to find a way forward if possible (if that is how you feel--I know you were uncertain).

I think all you can do is to show him in an innocuous, no-big-deal way that the light is green, and then let him come back when he is able.  You of course always get to decide if this is within the bounds of what you can tolerate in a r/s and if not, you can decide to be done, or done for now.

Can you invite a girlfriend on this ski trip?  I think I would find that much easier -- too easy to dwell on your alone-ness if you are all by yourself.  I like being alone but in the immediate wake of this, it would be hard for me.

[almost789]

Hi mitti, just from what ive read from your posts i doubt hes cut you out of his life. Unfortunately, they do hate the 'lets talk' idea. Mine did. Hes probably just playing avoidance. Maybe like patientandclear said you could lighten it up a bit and somehow let him know the talk is not a serious big deal. But im sure hell be back. Dont let it trigger you into overreacting about it. I say this because i would usually over react when mine played avoidance thinking hed abandoned me, when in fact he was just stressed. If u were planning on this trip together, just tell him you need to talk about the logistics for the trip.

[mitti]

He may be avoiding the "talk" bc he is afraid of what you are going to say.  Maybe he thinks you are abandoning him.

Hi Lady31,

That never occurred to me   I do know that he fears I might leave him, because he told me that many times since we started CT when he noticed how I was getting stronger, but it's never sunk in that it is actually an authentic fear. It sounds stupid because I do realize on the one hand but on the other I don't, I know how hard it is for me to leave him, even when I have wanted to.

We have talked that many times, sometimes on his initiative sometimes on mine. From what somebody else had said in another thread here it suddenly dawned on me how detrimental it is for us both for me to go on being undecided, and he must have sensed my hesitation about us for quite some time. OMG he is always thinking I am going to tell him I have met somebody else. I hear it but it has never seemed real, or remotely plausible for him to even suspect such a thing - here I am fighting for my r/s constantly showing him how much he means to me, and he thinks I will meet somebody else.

[patientandclear]

Right.  His fears are not based on the facts of what occurs between the two of you.  They are based on his profound doubts that anyone who knew him would really love him.

Case in point: It's been more than 18 months since my ex & I were dating.  While we were dating, I told him ONE time about the man I considered my great love until him ... .  someone I dated briefly when I was 19 (I'm now 46).  He said "I'll kill him" (joking).  I hastened to say things ended with us not because of any wrongdoing by this other guy, but because I wasn't ready for such an intense love.  My uBPDex said "no, I want to kill him because you feel that way about him."  It had that powerful an effect on him that there was anyone else about whom I had ever had such feelings.

Flash forward 18 months.  A week ago, we were talking about something completely different & I started to mention a former professor of mine, whom I referred to as "that guy who ... .  ".  My ex interrupted and said "the one who XYZ?" (referring to my long-ago love).  We have not discussed that man in all this time, and yet, there it was, on the very tip of his tongue.

My point is that the internal mental map they are using is unrecognizable to us based on our reality & shared actual experiences with them.  There is no possible way anyone could look at my actions toward my BPDex and doubt my love for him, and yet, he is worried when I don't text him right back that I may be done with him.  You know?  They are that unable to trust.

[mitti]

I think that theory is plausible too.  I read a comment by a pwBPD once who advised non-BPD partners never to say "we need to talk."  Because she imagined the worst.

Hi patientandclear,

You are right, the way I expressed myself may sound unnerving to him. I try to take into account how he might feel misconstrue things but even though I do I seem unable to comprehend his perceptions.

I feel hurt also, not because of this but because of the past that he can't make up for. That's why we are now in this mess and why I feel undecided. At the same time I don't want to lose him.

Unfortunately I have nobody who can at such short notice go with me on the trip and either my girlfriends  are in r/s or they don't like skiing. It's fine, I will be fine. I have bought an audiobook to listen to on the trip. I also have a heap of work to do. But I will miss him.

[mitti]

Right.  His fears are not based on the facts of what occurs between the two of you.  They are based on his profound doubts that anyone who knew him would really love him.

Case in point: It's been more than 18 months since my ex & I were dating.  While we were dating, I told him ONE time about the man I considered my great love until him ... .  someone I dated briefly when I was 19 (I'm now 46).  He said "I'll kill him" (joking).  I hastened to say things ended with us not because of any wrongdoing by this other guy, but because I wasn't ready for such an intense love.  My uBPDex said "no, I want to kill him because you feel that way about him."  It had that powerful an effect on him that there was anyone else about whom I had ever had such feelings.

Flash forward 18 months.  A week ago, we were talking about something completely different & I started to mention a former professor of mine, whom I referred to as "that guy who ... .  ".  My ex interrupted and said "the one who XYZ?" (referring to my long-ago love).  We have not discussed that man in all this time, and yet, there it was, on the very tip of his tongue.

My point is that the internal mental map they are using is unrecognizable to us based on our reality & shared actual experiences with them.  There is no possible way anyone could look at my actions toward my BPDex and doubt my love for him, and yet, he is worried when I don't text him right back that I may be done with him.  You know?  They are that unable to trust.

… of course, and I do know this, intellectually I do. But then in real life, in a real life situation, I base my perceptions on my own frames of reference. The thing is he has told me this, and still it's so hard to understand that it is really so.

OMG how similar your experience with your ex is to mine. Before meeting my bf I had been single for many, many years, and there hadn't even been a fling or nothing. But there was a man a couple of years before we met, that had been interested in me and we had been friends for a while and kissed one night. He has been mentioned twice. My bf insists that I always talks about him, and he gets extremely agitated when he himself mentions him. You would think with my past he would feel safe with me, especially since I have made it clear he is the love of my life, he and no other. Amazing how strongly he feels about this guy that never meant anything to me.

[mitti]

Hi mitti, just from what ive read from your posts i doubt hes cut you out of his life. Unfortunately, they do hate the 'lets talk' idea. Mine did. Hes probably just playing avoidance. Maybe like patientandclear said you could lighten it up a bit and somehow let him know the talk is not a serious big deal. But im sure hell be back. Dont let it trigger you into overreacting about it. I say this because i would usually over react when mine played avoidance thinking hed abandoned me, when in fact he was just stressed. If u were planning on this trip together, just tell him you need to talk about the logistics for the trip.

Hi SummerT321,

Thanks for your support. I am not sure what to do yet. We did plan a trip together, but we hadn't decided any dates. This was the the only time I could get off from work for some time and I didn't want to miss my chance to go skiing this season, especially when my bf has already gone taken a trip without me. Now that he didn't call me back I thought I will do my own thing and not let him stop me from doing what I love because he is being uncommunicative. I may contact him again, to let him know I am still wanting to find a way to move forward together, not sure how as yet, but I will wait until I have left. I don't want to feel guilty about going. I was more or less decided that if he wouldn't contact me again within a reasonable time frame, nor would I. I may reconsider.

[WorkinOnIt]

Case in point: It's been more than 18 months since my ex & I were dating.  While we were dating, I told him ONE time about the man I considered my great love until him ... .  someone I dated briefly when I was 19 (I'm now 46).  He said "I'll kill him" (joking).  I hastened to say things ended with us not because of any wrongdoing by this other guy, but because I wasn't ready for such an intense love.  My uBPDex said "no, I want to kill him because you feel that way about him."  It had that powerful an effect on him that there was anyone else about whom I had ever had such feelings.

My exuBPDgf made me promise to NEVER mention the name of an ex. She also told me (while isolating me) that I needed to delete Fbook friends and delete numbers/texts from my phone... .  so these people wouldn't cross MY mind. That's what she said was the problem... .  crossing MY mind. Huh-wha?

[mitti]

The dilemma with his distrust of me is that I don't know what to do when he excludes me and is not willing to meet me half way when I have needs, when I need to be reassured. And his need for reassurance is never-ending but at the same time I get little in return so long as he is in this push mode, so I give and give and there's no reward. Often he doesn't even show me appreciation of the little sweet things I do for him. It seems also it's a control thing with him. He can be so manipulative and when I refuse to let myself be manipulated if ever so carefully, there's always the possible risk of a conflict. I do resist his control but it is mentally draining to always be second-guessing your every move.

One night a couple of months ago he was going through a really tough time having an anxiety attack. The reason for this was that I had tried to get some more space for myself. His need for me feels suffocating at times and he doesn't seem to tolerate anything taking my attention away from him. We had also been going over some difficult issues in CT. I was exhausted and needed to be at home one night or I was just going to have a breakdown. He kept nagging and it was so hard to cave in. I came up with compromises and I was available on the phone all night and he kept calling but talking to me wasn't enough. It seemed it was all about making me come over. He tried to guilt me, nagged me, plead but without pleading, if you know what I mean. I have never told this man no and in the end we talked until very late and I promised to come over as soon as I woke up the next morning, which I did. But despite this it's as if he hasn't forgiven me that I "failed him" that night.

So how can I take care of myself, help him learn to self-soothe and not always end up paying for it? I need to be allowed to be a person in our r/s. I am sorry I feel I have been rambling on off topic now. This is a part of what is making me feel undecided, not only about our r/s but also about how to contact him now that he seems to have cut me off.

[almost789]

I understand your frustration. If hes cut you off them perhaps you should wait for him to contact you back. And have fun if you go on the ski trip! It could be an abandonment fear. But what are you to do? Stop living? No.

[mitti]

I am on my trip. I have been skiing all day and it has been great even though I miss him. But in the ski lift I also realized how lonely I am in our r/s because being here alone didn't feel that different to being here with him. It does now of course, when I am all alone in the cabin.

Needless to say, I haven't heard from him nor have i tried to contact him in any way.

I would consider staying with him if there's change. I know he can't promise that but I would like to ask him what, if anything, is he prepared to do to improve our r/s. I know what I need for him to change for me to be willing to stay, and I accept it wouldn't happen immediately, but I need to see him work towards that goal. I just don't know how to ask, or if I can get straight to the point, or even in a text.

What do think?

[almost789]

Hi Mitti!  I hope you enjoying you trip. I wish i could help you. I dont know a good way to tell my pwBPD about my needs. It seems if I ever brought anything up regarding what i needed it never went well for me. Im looking forward to hearing what others say about this.

[mitti]

Thanks, yes I am enjoying my trip. Had a wonderful day today. Sunshine and amazing skiing. I don't miss him on the slopes  but when I come back to an empty cabin it's harder.

I feel in two minds about whether to text, phone or not. Regardless of the outcome I kind of want to get in touch, or preferably that he does but that seems unlikely to me now. We haven't spoken for more than a week. If he doesn't want contact anymore I want to tell him I am out, for my own sake, so I don't go back again. Last time, it was 7 months and I took him back. I can't do that again.

My T tells me (both of us when we went together) that we usually have a way of communicating the opposite of what we want, mostly him, but me also sometimes. She says for us to stop guessing what the other is thinking, feeling and if unsure ask. So I am thinking I should ask him straight out what this no responding means. Judging from the past it could mean anything from - not wanting contact, to wanting contact but feeling too ashamed and guilty to call after a week has passed, to wanting contact but intending to reject me if and when I do contact him.

[mitti]

Another day of beautiful snowy mountains and wonderful skiing.

Back at the cabin in the afternoon I called him. No response but 10 mins later he texts me that he's in a meeting. Hours later and he hasn't called me back. Usually he calls me back after letting me know by text why he couldn't pick up. This is out of character for him, not that it hasn't ever happened but that was a very long time ago.

He probably wants me to do all the work and call him back or he freaked himself out and panicked all over again. I might just text and ask if not calling me back means he doesn't want to speak to me. Is that going to sound threatening?

[patientandclear]

How about something more positive like "I'd love to talk for a bit this evening--do you have time?"

[mitti]

Thanks P&C, you have a point that a more positive approach will most certainly be more successful and that way I give him a way out of having to explain himself as well. I am sure he can't see me any evening this week though cos his children are there and I want to avoid him saying he can't without suggesting an alternative and I am back to square one. Plus, I am still away on my trip.

It's scary because I also don't want to be rejected.  

[almost789]

Hi Mitti!

Did you say that you were suppose to go on this trip together but he ended up going with another friend? It could be since you are on this trip alone, he's avoiding talking to you because he feels shamful for not being there with you. Honestly, if you made contact once and he told you he was busy. If I were you I would not make contact with him again, until he contacted me. BPD people don't usually respond to things like. "Can we talk?" Especially, when they are in avoidance mode. Just my opinion. It makes sense to me that the ball is in his court now to contact you.

[patientandclear]

Agree that the original "can we talk" may have scared him.  Have you decided what you want to say if you do talk?  I think he is likely anxious that y red-flagou have bad news for him, which is why I suggested being very obviously positive & upbeat in asking for the conversation.  If you know you don't want to end things & are going to be able to be affirming, you could tell him "nothing bad--I just miss you!" which might help deal w/his anxiety.

But seems like you are unsure what you want to say. That makes it hard to honestly reassure. So what about some low-key communication that isn't about setting up a talk just yet? Or proposing to do something fun and not so charged? So both of you are reminded why this is worth the effort?

Totally get not wanting to be rejected.

[mitti]

Did you say that you were suppose to go on this trip together but he ended up going with another friend?

I can understand I have been confusing in my attempts to not be longwinded. To clarify, his was the deal: some time before Xmas, after some pretty rough weeks with ups and downs, he told me he wanted to take his kids for a trip over Xmas because he couldn't deal with the whole family thing. The only two other people it would have involved was my daughter and me, but fair enough, he is BPD so it can still be overwhelming for him. I told him this would make me sad but I didn't try to make him do anything he didn't want to do.

We always go skiing together a couple of times each season, sometimes just the two of us, sometimes with the kids. He suggested him and I go together before Xmas - there are two things about this. I don't actually want to go before Xmas as I am too stressed and the other I didn't feel like doing what he wanted. He needs to learn he can't get everything the way he wants it and my needs and wishes not count. So I told him I didn't want to go before Xmas especially since he didn't want to celebrate Xmas together.

Instead I went away to see a friend abroad for a few days, which I informed him of beforehand. He chose to through a tantrum about this by text. I left him to it and when I contacted him on my return he had gone on a ski trip by himself. I never said anything about this but only asked whom he had gone with. On his own apparently.

Then came the breakup and then ending up where we are now.  A few weeks ago we talked about a new ski trip, abroad this time. I said I needed to go soon because of work. He wanted to go a bit later. Then a fight (not about the trip) and his refusal to respond when I called. As he was being uncommunicative and I had very few dates possible for a trip I booked the one I have just been on, a different destination and in the country.

I hope I haven't made this more confusing. 

It could be since you are on this trip alone, he's avoiding talking to you because he feels shamful for not being there with you.

He doesn't even know I am away since we haven't talked.

Honestly, if you made contact once and he told you he was busy. If I were you I would not make contact with him again, until he contacted me. BPD people don't usually respond to things like. "Can we talk?" Especially, when they are in avoidance mode. Just my opinion. It makes sense to me that the ball is in his court now to contact you.

Sometimes, he feels ashamed for having reacted unreasonably, like a rage or refusing contact. Often he wants to come back without it being brought up. Other times it is pride that prevents him from reaching out to me. It has been very long since he has done this though. He has changed so much this past year this feels unusual.

After the awful 7 months apart the year before last I made a promise to myself to never go through that again. And I have since told him that if he again decided to not communicate with me I will not wait for him again but make my own decisions for myself. I have done that twice since and it freaked him out both times. Yes, the ball is his court, but since he isn't kicking it I am feeling less and less sure I want to play.

[mitti]

Agree that the original "can we talk" may have scared him.  Have you decided what you want to say if you do talk?  I think he is likely anxious that y red-flagou have bad news for him, which is why I suggested being very obviously positive & upbeat in asking for the conversation.  If you know you don't want to end things & are going to be able to be affirming, you could tell him "nothing bad--I just miss you!" which might help deal w/his anxiety.

But seems like you are unsure what you want to say. That makes it hard to honestly reassure. So what about some low-key communication that isn't about setting up a talk just yet? Or proposing to do something fun and not so charged? So both of you are reminded why this is worth the effort?

Totally get not wanting to be rejected.

I am unsure of what to say when I first contact him, although I know what I want to talk about. I see your point. I am worried, but I am in no way sure that is the case, that he is still in push and not even remotely interested in doing anything with me. Not breaking up but just not wanting to see me. I am starting to wonder if he is/was punishing me. I did something just prior to his refusal to speak to me that I am sure he would have read as rejection although my reaction would have been perfectly understandable to anybody else. But if that were the case, that he is punishing me, it is strange he sent me the text yesterday about being in a meeting when I called. But then again, he can flip in and out of these emotions so quickly, it doesn't seem possible to predict at times.

He once told our T that during one phase of refusing contact and this time I no longer kept pursuing him, he in fact kept hoping and wanting me to call him, knowing full well at the same time, that had I done so, he would have rejected me, by not responding. At the same time, he admitted, he also wanted me back. But he was so angry with me he just wanted to punish me. What I had done? He couldn't answer the T what I had done, only that he was so angry with me.

[mitti]

I called him. I wanted to send a text but just felt tired of the whole thing and called fully expecting him to pick up. He didn't.

This may change everything for me.

[patientandclear]

He once told our T that during one phase of refusing contact and this time I no longer kept pursuing him, he in fact kept hoping and wanting me to call him, knowing full well at the same time, that had I done so, he would have rejected me, by not responding. At the same time, he admitted, he also wanted me back. But he was so angry with me he just wanted to punish me. What I had done? He couldn't answer the T what I had done, only that he was so angry with me.

Wow.  That makes clear in just one short paragraph why it's futile to act in a particular way because of the way you hope it will affect a pwBPD.  I guess (and this is advice I've been receiving here myself in the past few days) you need to act in accord with your own values and let him sort out what he thinks and feels about it, since you cannot control that.

I'm still practicing this myself since like you, I am now very sensitive to the possibility of rejection.  I think I need to get over that!

I hear you saying repeatedly that his distancing is a huge problem for you.  In my life, I've pretty much decided my pwBPD's distancing habits mean that I can't be his sexual or romantic partner, though I have those feelings for him.  My expectations need to align with "friendship" because that is what he can deliver.  Even then, it's awfully hard to be disappeared on, especially after things are really good.  You know how it goes.

So I completely get why that may be a deal-breaker for you in this r/s. If it is, it doesn't seem like he is going to change that behavior on his own -- it seems like a deeply entrenched pseudo-coping skill

Maybe give him a clear, loving statement of the situation from your point of view?  Ask him, in a non-demanding way, if he has ideas about how it could be addressed that would make it possible for you to remain involved with him, because you'd really like to?  And see whether he responds, and with what.  That way, you don't have to wonder if it was unclear what the problem was, and you don't have to doubt whether he would have stepped up if given a clear chance.

Perhaps you feel you've already done this & that you have all the information you need.  But you sound still very connected to this man emotionally and I wonder if a last clear statement wouldn't provide you with some peace with the outcome.

(( Mitti ))

[mitti]

Thank you so much for your advice P&C,

Yes, his distancing has always been extremely problematic for me. I have pretty serious abandonment issues myself. My way if coping has been an avoidant attachment style - not helping me at all of course.

Since we got back together I made it clear I would no longer accept any silent treatment, but LC since I do understand how things can get too overwhelming for him. Since then he would let me know, although often rudely that he needed time away. So the push and pull has still been hard but no more silent treatment.

The other thing that is a huge deal for me is exclusion, and since October I have become less and less involved in his life. I know this is because we have had more or less ongoing drama since this then, and that's why I have been sympathetic to his needs so far. But I have made clear I don't want  a r/s like that. So I can absolutely understand your position with your pwBPD that you cannot have a romantic r/s with him because of this coming and going in the r/s.

We also have a difficult past involving people from the time apart and that has been a huge deal for me. We are really at a stalemate there and without further T I am in serious doubt it could be solved.

I have very little time right now but I am going to ponder on an email to him. And I like your idea about asking him how he feels this could be addressed. I may give him a time frame within to respond. Otherwise I am worried he would leave me hanging. And it would be hard for me to let go hoping he might still respond, perhaps the next day or the next day. I can't keep doing that.

[mitti]

I have decided on a way forward and I am doing it pretty immediately, partly because the waiting makes me feel worse but mostly because Friday there's this thing happening involving some people/things from the past that have been causing me a lot of pain. So Friday will be my deadline. I am sending him a message letting him know this. I haven't written it yet but thought of saying something along the lines of:

I am wondering whether you want for us to stay together and try to find a way to address our problems or if you don't want to see me anymore. I feel sad things are the way they are but wish we could find a solution. What I can't do is wait. I know about [... .  ] happening on Friday and under the circumstances it would hurt me more than I can bear if you went. I therefore wonder if instead we could meet on Friday to talk about a possible way forward for us together. If you don't want to see me on Friday, I can't do this anymore.

Comments and feedback are welcome.