1.5 hr phone call last night - every doubt cleared if she has BPD

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I haven't started a thread in a long time. A very short background. My ex split me black in late January because we were having a conversation and I reminded her of her abusive parents. She is in denial about it. She had broken up with me in 2006, came back in late 2010, and from then on wards it was on/off push-pull depending on her mind or what was going on in her home with mommy-daddy. Since mid-2011 we had be "officially" broken up with a dozen recycles from her. In late half 2012 she was having just "casual sex" with me, even with telling me that she loves me (whenever she was in romantic mood).

So two and half months back she told me in a casual conservation that "I didn't see love in your eyes last couple of years". That sort of led to our "fight" that night. I did not know it was a fight till a couple of days later when I found out that she went on a date with someone the day after our fight.

So that's the background. In these two months I obsessively educated myself about BPD... .   I had originally started my research last spring when I had to google her behavior because I had never known another human being behave in an alternate reality manner. I used to post a lot on forums, learned a lot, read a lot. And finally accepted that she has BPD and I was at peace with my knowledge. Around mid-March she started replying to the few messages I had left her in late-Jan through February. It went from being a few sentences every few days to becoming normal talk every 4th day (her contacting me every 4th day freaks me out... .   disappears... .   and then on the 4th day contacts). About 10 days back she was very chatty and said she misses sex a lot. That was random. Then Thursday night on wards she has been different. Started with a "hey you", but disappeared in 7 mins. Yesterday she talked for hours online in afternoon. Gave me subtle to overt hints she wants to meet me. Then at night she called because she wanted to talk to someone. It was a "good" talk, in the sense we didn't fight. But every single thing she said, or felt, or has done in these few months or over her life... .   every single damn sentence felt like it had come out of a BPD manual. The guy she went out with in late Jan, she said they got serious and nearly got married but she pushed him away. Since then she's meeting or talking to other guys daily about marriage and they all want to marry her but she's pushing them away. Then she said how she doesn't know who she is, what she wants. How she is always lonely and so scared of being alone. She said all these feelings and thoughts started when she came to the United States 17 years back... .   the time her three years of sexual abuse at home ended. I have read so much that the emotional growth stops around the time of abuse. By Lord I always thought her emotional behavior is that of a 14 year old (she came when she was 12). Again defended her parents saying "they want the best for me". They literally are the most emotionally abusive people I have known in my life.

If I had ever any doubt, talking to her last night cleared it. In the end she said that she wished I was in bed with her so she could hold me and hug me. I still don't think this is a recycle attempt since she is clear she doesn't want to be with me. I think this is happening because her current supply of other guys' emotional availability is running low. The only thing even remotely related to BPD I told her was "please google the sentences you just told me. your answers are there". Today I told her why don't you trust me, would you please listen to me if I want to talk about everything you talked last night about your feelings and thoughts. Her reply was "I don't need help". Can't help someone's denial. For years it killed me seeing her in pain. But I have accepted I cannot help her. Either someday she sees, or she doesn't.

And I will not keep taking abuse from her. I have maintained my boundaries. I am pissed today because what I always feared is becoming true. Her family is Muslim and do not want her to marry a non-Muslim because they are afraid "what will other people say". I swear to God that is the reason her dad always gave me. Now the guys she is going out with and the guys her parents are looking for her are "Muslims in name only"... .   according to her. For last 15 hours I have been thinking, do I really want to marry someone who gives in to emotional blackmail, threats... .   to the people who are such cowards that the only thing they care about is what other people will say. The only thing they want is that the guy's name be Muslim sounding.

It is cowardly, it is sad. She is a 28 year old dentist who will not leave parents' home unless she goes into husband's home. The very definition of a high functioning BPD who is living in denial and might always live in denial. I am quite sure she will ignore me for the next few days, just because she talked so much yesterday. So much of me just wants to ignore her. So much of me cannot give up on someone who is in so much obvious pain, someone I have been crazy about since I was 15 and she was 16... .  

Reading others' stories has helped me a lot. Maybe this will help others. If nothing else, venting it out might make me feel better... .   thanks... .  

[elessar]

I haven't started a thread in a long time. A very short background. My ex split me black in late January because we were having a conversation and I reminded her of her abusive parents. She is in denial about it. She had broken up with me in 2006, came back in late 2010, and from then on wards it was on/off push-pull depending on her mind or what was going on in her home with mommy-daddy. Since mid-2011 we had be "officially" broken up with a dozen recycles from her. In late half 2012 she was having just "casual sex" with me, even with telling me that she loves me (whenever she was in romantic mood).

So two and half months back she told me in a casual conservation that "I didn't see love in your eyes last couple of years". That sort of led to our "fight" that night. I did not know it was a fight till a couple of days later when I found out that she went on a date with someone the day after our fight.

So that's the background. In these two months I obsessively educated myself about BPD... .   I had originally started my research last spring when I had to google her behavior because I had never known another human being behave in an alternate reality manner. I used to post a lot on forums, learned a lot, read a lot. And finally accepted that she has BPD and I was at peace with my knowledge. Around mid-March she started replying to the few messages I had left her in late-Jan through February. It went from being a few sentences every few days to becoming normal talk every 4th day (her contacting me every 4th day freaks me out... .   disappears... .   and then on the 4th day contacts). About 10 days back she was very chatty and said she misses sex a lot. That was random. Then Thursday night on wards she has been different. Started with a "hey you", but disappeared in 7 mins. Yesterday she talked for hours online in afternoon. Gave me subtle to overt hints she wants to meet me. Then at night she called because she wanted to talk to someone. It was a "good" talk, in the sense we didn't fight. But every single thing she said, or felt, or has done in these few months or over her life... .   every single damn sentence felt like it had come out of a BPD manual. The guy she went out with in late Jan, she said they got serious and nearly got married but she pushed him away. Since then she's meeting or talking to other guys daily about marriage and they all want to marry her but she's pushing them away. Then she said how she doesn't know who she is, what she wants. How she is always lonely and so scared of being alone. She said all these feelings and thoughts started when she came to the United States 17 years back... .   the time her three years of sexual abuse at home ended. I have read so much that the emotional growth stops around the time of abuse. By Lord I always thought her emotional behavior is that of a 14 year old (she came when she was 12). Again defended her parents saying "they want the best for me". They literally are the most emotionally abusive people I have known in my life.

If I had ever any doubt, talking to her last night cleared it. In the end she said that she wished I was in bed with her so she could hold me and hug me. I still don't think this is a recycle attempt since she is clear she doesn't want to be with me. I think this is happening because her current supply of other guys' emotional availability is running low. The only thing even remotely related to BPD I told her was "please google the sentences you just told me. your answers are there". Today I told her why don't you trust me, would you please listen to me if I want to talk about everything you talked last night about your feelings and thoughts. Her reply was "I don't need help". Can't help someone's denial. For years it killed me seeing her in pain. But I have accepted I cannot help her. Either someday she sees, or she doesn't.

And I will not keep taking abuse from her. I have maintained my boundaries. I am pissed today because what I always feared is becoming true. Her family is Muslim and do not want her to marry a non-Muslim because they are afraid "what will other people say". I swear to God that is the reason her dad always gave me. Now the guys she is going out with and the guys her parents are looking for her are "Muslims in name only"... .   according to her. For last 15 hours I have been thinking, do I really want to marry someone who gives in to emotional blackmail, threats... .   to the people who are such cowards that the only thing they care about is what other people will say. The only thing they want is that the guy's name be Muslim sounding.

It is cowardly, it is sad. She is a 28 year old dentist who will not leave parents' home unless she goes into husband's home. The very definition of a high functioning BPD who is living in denial and might always live in denial. I am quite sure she will ignore me for the next few days, just because she talked so much yesterday. So much of me just wants to ignore her. So much of me cannot give up on someone who is in so much obvious pain, someone I have been crazy about since I was 15 and she was 16... .  

Reading others' stories has helped me a lot. Maybe this will help others. If nothing else, venting it out might make me feel better... .   thanks... .  

[daze]

every single damn sentence felt like it had come out of a BPD manual.

Sadly though it does sound like a story from the BPD manual.

That's interesting that you told her to Google her symptoms and see what she comes up with.  Maybe she will.  That's how I found out about BPD - googled my uBPDh's symptoms and ultimately ended up here.

[elessar]

thanks for replying Daze

i dont think she will. not anytime soon. i had been telling her this since last spring. funny thing... .   when she came back to me 2.5 yrs back... .   she said she has schizophrenia or bipolar or something. i mean even now, on the phone call, she was explaining her behavior which even she finds as not normal. but she just refuses to see a psychiatrist or look into it or read about it. the defense mechanism and denial takes over if someone hints there is anything wrong with her (or her family). God, if she talks about her parents she barely has anything good to say. but if i say anything slightly negative... .   split black!

i started with my research in late 2011 when i googled "alternate reality". it truly felt like either she's in alternate reality or i have gone crazy.

[daze]

Denial is the big one! Along with splitting and projection.

Goodness, she's a dentist.  You'd think she'd have some level of interest in her own mental health since she's in the medical field. 

Maybe she will eventually google it.  If I were you, I'd mention it every time the subject comes up.

No, you are not the crazy one but it's amazing how we worry about that until we find out about personality disorders!

[elessar]

I know she knows she has BPD. last spring at my behest when i was ready to walk away she took online BPD quizzes and said she has "severe BPD". every single thing in the DSM-IV was true about her. she accepted it for a few days before it turned into "everything in my life will be fine once i am over you". thats the closest she came to doing something. 2 years back she wanted me to find psych for her because of her suicidal tendencies and other stuff, but next day she would feel better and refuse to see anyone.

she told me last night that she didn't talk to me for 6 weeks because I called her a "whore". I was pissed at her for saying I didn't love her and then starting online dating and how shes lying to herself about my feelings so she can see others. her reply - i am not a whore who is sleeping around. and i found out yesterday she believes i called her a whore. those type of behaviors led me to alternate reality and BPD.

she said another funny thing yesterday... .   one of her dates told her "why do u get so angry at me. what did i do". she said "i think i am realizing that i get angry a lot". i felt like screaming - yes you always get angry and then blame me for getting angry and i don't even know why u r angry. that sucks... .   someone else made her realize that she gets angry. when i said for years... .   i was blamed that its not true and that i am the one who gets pissed at her. aah the projections... .

[daze]

know she knows she has BPD. last spring at my behest when i was ready to walk away she took online BPD quizzes and said she has "severe BPD". every single thing in the DSM-IV was true about her. she accepted it for a few days before it turned into "everything in my life will be fine once i am over you".

I don't think I got it fully that she really knows, but it sure sounds like she knows.  Denial - it's crazy.  I gave my uBPDh a questionnaire with the criteria listed out as they would apply to a pwBPD's experience.  He told me he answered yes to almost all of the questions, but didn't ask what it was for.  A couple of months later I told him the questionnaire was for BPD.  He didn't get mad, or project it back on me, or anything.

Maybe she will ultimately seek help.

she told me last night that she didn't talk to me for 6 weeks because I called her a "whore".

This sounds very familiar!

one of her dates told her "why do u get so angry at me. what did i do".

Who knows? Maybe this will start sinking in and she will get help.  You'd think so anyway.

[elessar]

sometimes i feel bad for myself... .   its self-pity, its disgusting. that i busted my ass off for her, for her independence, for her freedom. now she is enjoying it, after i am gone. she used our break up to extract personal freedom from mommy-daddy. some day she will realize and get her BPD treatment started. again someone else will be there to enjoy it with her. the fact that i spent years slowly getting her into it... .   it will be lost. just like she is enjoying life so much right now. when we were together we barely did anything because she needed permission to go out, couldn't stay out late, couldn't drink, couldn't dress up.

all of this makes me very sad.

[patientandclear]

For what it's worth, it doesn't remotely sound to me like she is enjoying life. She sounds miserable.  She also sounds years away from having any possible capacity to engage in a real r/s.

Stories like this help me to take even more seriously than I already do, how poerful denial & projection are. We just have no chance against those mechanisms. You called her a whore ... .   you don't love her ... .   of course, if she can persuade herself of those things, she can rationalize all sorts of behavior & choices that lead her away from looking within & starting to fix what's there.

I've encountered the "I'm fine, nothing's wrong" posture so many times even though it is crystal clear he upends everything & everybody in his life.  He rationalizes it with a story that he just hasn't met the right person or found the right situation yet. That story is getting a little frayed around the edges but it is starting to seem like he's just going to stick with it, with more and more erratic results.

Sounds like you've done what you can do.

[pallavirajsinghani]

elessar:  Would you consider converting to Islam to marry her?  Is this what she really wants from you?  This way, she can have you and keep her family expectations intact too.

I am posing this question to enable you to conduct deeper self-introspection.

[daze]

sometimes i feel bad for myself

That's understandable.  Maybe she will decide to look into it soon.  It doesn't sound like it's too late.



pallavirajsinghani's question is interesting too.

[elessar]

Hey patientandclear,

yup, projections are the worst. and these are nothing compared to what she has said in the past. these are seriously child's play. I mean i have been called a rapist like her uncles by her. so yeah... .  

funny thing, never once in her life has she apologized for whatever she has called me or accused me to telling about her. not once. even the rapist thing "I felt it like that then". isn't it funny how BPDs have a crazy relationship about sex. Back in 2011 when she met me for the second time in 5 years she had sex. and often. very often. 10 days back told me how much she misses it. she always says that. yet after sex, turns upside down - "all you ever wanted was to be in my pants". oh well... .   projections... .  

And pallavi and daze,

thanks for the replies... .   i am going to love what I am going to write now... .  

Yes I did convert for her when I was young back in college... .   i think i was 20. Guess what happened then, her mom said "converted muslims aren't real muslims". she never asked me. I knew i had to do that to be with her. i did everything... .   practice... . everything. it killed my parents. my mother didn't talk to me. but i did it. and what happened when her mother and brother knew about me... .   she left. called me on the phone and broke up. called me 3 months later to tell me she is disgusted of me because of what we did (sex) and even if her parents agree about me, she will kick me out of her doorstep. month and a half later (4.5 months after leaving me), called me to visit her in her dental school because she might be pregnant from me. yup... .   4.5 months of no physical contact, not sure if she is pregnant. then silence for 4 yrs. i stopped following religion because i am not into organized religion. i do not believe in it. i am as far away from organized religion as any human can be. i love my PhD in biology, and science has given me answers which religion never did. so "conversion" aint for me. what will i convert from and to what? i do not believe in anything (except an Uncaused Cause). and what will i believe in? nothing.

Yet... .   when she came back in 2.5 yrs back and slept with me, I told her I will give it another try. But requested her not to force me and let me try at my own pace. But she pressured me, forced it, tried to control my diet according to her religious rules. But pretty soon she let it go because she doesn't believe in pretty much anything her religion says nor does she practice anything. she is as far away from religion as I am (but she won't ever accept it... .   she calls her religious... .   although when you allow her to talk and not ask her questions... .   she questions everything and doesn't believe in any of the stories/doctrines).

so convert for her dad? I agreed to that too. If that will give him peace, I agreed to do it. In private, have a small private wedding. he will be happy and all. but no, thats not what he wants. they don't care about religion. they care about what other people think. they want a "conversion ceremony" (according to her) where i will publicly denounce my old religion (i dont have any... .   but in this culture your parents' religion is ur own). I will denounce my beliefs, say i was wrong, accept the new religion and say how i am now saved and happy. if i don't do that, God forbid her daddy's friends might think I fake-converted for marriage. I called that "ceremony" that she described as "humiliation ceremony"... .   not as much for me as for my parents. everyone, from my parents, to my grandparents... .   have been supportive of me in this. heck, they would have even gone with the fake private "conversion" to please her daddy. But i am not letting my family get humiliated by this man. oh and she said then "if you do not do what my dad wants, then u do not respect him". that was when i finally told her (the only time ever) - ok i am done with you.

we went to a psychologist once for couples counseling... .   that lady asked my ex---if I do the conversion, will it please your dad, or will he always have more demands. she replied... .   and i was glad she was honest... .   she said no this is not enough, but this is a first step. obviously, a blackmailer never ends at only one demand.

Oh and how controlling is he? my ex has a married older sister and her dad still gets to say yes/no to what she can wear. 5 of his brothers and cousins sexually abused my ex and her sister for three years. what did he say... .   "what can we do now". nothing happened... .   can't expose them, else people will talk about us. yup... .   normal relationship with the men who ruined my ex's life. and that is where her BPD began.

and even if I did convert and made her dad happy and she can have both, even then I won't do it because today the issue isn't just that. she has BPD. she does not want me to convert because she herself says it is wrong. conversion and marriage won't solve her BPD. that is one fact I am so happy I finally accepted. her push-pull, recycle, abuse, alternate realities... .   it had to do with her BPD. not with conversion. she doesn't even want to marry a religious person. just someone whom her parents will accept... .   someone "muslim in name only". i am not giving in to that cowardice. her issue is her sexual abuse and the emotional abuse her mother and father have subjected her since childhood. every time they threaten her of kicking her out if she doesn't obey. and every time she cries talking about her parents kicking her out. she will be 29. she earns 6 figure salary. its not like she cannot survive. the worse they treat her, the more she defends them. abused defending abuser... .   been going on forever and will go on forever.

i gave her everything. she always had an excuse why i wasn't good enough or did some mistake. i always ask her to marry me. yet last year she came up with a story of how i never showed commitment... .   now what did she mean by that? i never proposed with a diamond ring. if i would do that, she will say yes. thats what she told me. few weeks later i proposed to her after nearly emptying my bank account. she said no. "i cannot leave my parents". i went to her home... .   she told her dad i make her happy. he said "then go with him". then she said goodbye to me. after spending previous 18 months giving me a billion reasons why she wants to leave home. oh he has even hit her for dating me. last night when i brought up engagement ring she said "you were too late". late for what? i didn't follow it up. when i talked to her friend last month her friend said "she always says her dad is her biggest defender at home" ... .  

told you... .   i will love answering that conversion question. it brought out the passion in me. i gave everything. i did everything. i had given up on my family (who have supported me unconditionally). she said she "stood by me, but we didn't work out". maybe twice in last 2 yrs she has blamed us breaking up on her parents. else it has always been something defective in me or something I did (including not being educated enough and not being able to support her dental school loans and not being tall enough... .   ). and the guys she is seeing nowadays sure are PhDs or MDs... .  

they always have an excuse to blame you, don't they?

i don't even want her. i am feeling disgusted by what she has done in last 2.5 months. i don't want her. i don't even respect her. she says she is brave because of all the  she can take and suffers and still survive. but isn't it cowardice to take it and not stand up for yourself? she always likes to show off how she is in control and can do whatever she wants. for example... .   go out without parent's permission... .   stay out late! (stuff one would expect from a 16 year old). sometimes i feel evil and ask her, if you are truly in charge of your life... .   can you marry me? she goes silent... .   and half the times flips out of me (she hates truth pointed out to her). so how can i respect someone who seems more like a coward than a brave soul. for 12 years i thought she is the bravest girl i ever knew. funny how in last few months my thinking has flipped so much. yet something holds me back... .   the fact that she is ill, that she is suffering, she is in pain... .  

[GreenMango]

Elessar it sounds like a huge cultural gap too.  If she comes from a strict muslim background there are probably quite a bit of differences in how women are expected to act and what they do.  Lots of family expectations.  This on top of any emotional traumas have to be really chaotic for both of you.

Sounds like this conversation may provide a little bit in the way of acceptance.  Does it help with closure?

[elessar]

Hi GreenMango,

thanks for reading

I had accepted it the first time around in 2006. i had also believed that they are truly religious. but now i have seen they are only that to "show off". they just want to show their 6-7 family friends "look we are this and that". the self-righteous behavior. as far as religion/culture is concerned, i truly feel sad for her because she is neither religious nor does she like it. she hates the rules and the thinking. but she's stuck because as she has repeatedly said a million times "i can't leave my parents, even if they kill me" (unless she is angry at them, then she can't wait to get the hell out of her home)

I am having trouble this time around (past 30 months), because everything from 2005-2006 repeated itself. she came as an escape from home, and left me to go back to home. i feel duped, and i feel stupid that i allowed her to do this. same reason she broke up in 2006, same reason she has been leaving me since coming back. but unlike 2006, this time 99.99% blame is put on me for why "we didn't work out".

I used to get torn a lot if our dysfunction is just her cultural/family issues, or if she truly has BPD. Studying her closely for so long now, I am now 100% confident that it is both. She has to deal with her family hell, and her own mental pain. That is why I make myself available to her, and I really need to stop doing that. So confused... .   between looking after for myself and feeling guilty about walking away from her (which she has no problem doing).

[daze]

Sounds like you've tried really hard to understand all aspects of it.  I'm sorry it is painful and has been going on so long.  You will be ultimately be okay and you will move on when the time is right.

On an up note, it's a new week!   

[elessar]

I am afraid it might take a long long time. In the time she was gone, I never got over her. She is still the only woman I have ever been with and loved since I was crazy about her since high school (over 12 yrs now). During 5-6 days before she contact me in Sept 2010, I had made a blog dedicated to her... .   to talk about fear vs reason. I did not know about BPD or anything then. I just thought we were broken apart by her intolerant and cowardly family. It was quite ironic. Even 4.5 yrs after she broke up, she had occupied my mind and heart. And 6 days later I get a "Hi".

I don't know how long will it take this time. I cannot be with someone else till she is completely gone from my head. Till I stop having feelings for her. God knows how long will it take.

[NiceGuy83]

elessar, bro, I'm so sorry.

I can read how much turmoil you're in right now.  I wish there was a quick way out, but you've been enmeshed emotionally for a long time, and will need some time to get over it. 

Stopping having feelings is not the same as forgetting about someone.  Even when this last BPD relationship of mine seemed good, I remembered the previous BPD one.  I didn't have feelings for her anymore, other than some residual sympathy and good-will.  But I also tried to learn from my experience. I'll do the same this time.  I suggest you try that too, and I suggest you start here - https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm

You seem to me to still be stuck on the

Belief that this person holds the key to your happiness

.  Let me ask, have you tried dating anyone else?  If so when, and what happened? 

[elessar]

I did try dating. it was a big mess. back in 2006, maybe 8-9 months after break-up, i tried to date a very close friend of mine. i was still in rebound phase. she was an old friend. it was one of the big mistakes of my life. lost a very good friend that way. have had crushes on a few more girls, who either had bfs or didn't want to date anyone. and i am ultra scared of dating... .   of getting hurt. of someone leaving me. also, never made a true effort because i was never over my ex. and i didn't want to be the man who is not over his ex and dates other women.

[GreenMango]

That is why I make myself available to her, and I really need to stop doing that. So confused... .   between looking after for myself and feeling guilty about walking away from her (which she has no problem doing).

It's a hard place to be.  Looking after you is really important.

Maybe let yourself grieve - even as hurtful the relationship was you loved her and its going to take some time.

[elessar]

long slow process. but i know i cannot fix her and it is not my job to do that either. accepting that has been my biggest improvement in last 7-8 yrs.

[elessar]

since she complained of all her misery on friday night, i had asked her to please google what you are telling me and you will get your answers. i had learned my lesson not to tell her anymore that she has BPD.

she messages me now -

    Just stop diagnosing me, ne normal person under pressure go through many emotions. Doesn't mean they r have something

    Tat was one of the major thing tat pushed me away from u. I hated the fact tat I had to be broken for u.

    I was just a girl over whelmed w her life n probs. Tats all

[elessar]

i replied -

   i said what i had to say. i take nothing back because i wouldn't have opened my mouth without being 101% sure. but it wasnt my place to pressure you. and for yesterday, i offered u something and since u declined, i gave you your space :-)

   i will tell u what i see as a friend. i wont be your sycophant nor your critic

   and since u do not want, i will not say a word.

She said - so stick to it.

Don't think she's pissed. But its funny she's been thinking about it for two days. I know she knows there is something. And is this her denial/defensiveness coming out?

I say this because for the first 5 months of our relationship when she came back 2 years back, she asked me all the time to find a psychiatrist for her. but from the moment she broke up with me, she is all fine and i am evil for telling her she might need to see someone.

[pallavirajsinghani]

elessar:  I am undergoing so many diverse emotions right now.  Outrage, compassion, sorrow... .   (my brother is married to a BPD sufferer... .   the havoc is indescribable... .   the acid ripples still burn)

And one of those emotions is envy.  My husband and I are from different cultures and religions.  (He is a Caucasion and I am Southeast Asian.)  We had zero problems with regard to our marriage.  We have a great marriage.  No conversions, no blackmail.  When it is X-Mas, we attend the morning service, when it is Diwali, we go to the temple.  We celebrate everything.  We are both nons, my husband is awfully goodlooking with high cheekbones.  He is a sheep in a wolf's clothing.  A rock and roller motor cycle dude who is a total family man.

So where does my envy arise from?

... .   because I know that my husband would not have put up with all this trauma for so long.  That his love for me would have dried up with repeated discourtesies and denials and dis-validations and conditions... .   that I would not ever ever ever have been considered worthy of the level of dedication that you have shown.

Your dedication and love and passion and sacrifice and wait and expenditure of mental physical emotional financial filial resources for this woman go above and beyond the norms.  It is a love that is truly epic in proportions.  It is the stuff of high romance, of Romeo & Juliet, of Gone with the Wind, of Casablanca, of The Streetcar Named Desire, of Camille of... .   Wuthuring Heights.

My BPD SIL elicits the same love and passion and dedication and sacrifice from my brother.

I read of experiences after experiences of people on this board who harbor similar level of self-sacrificing and self-effacing behavior/feelings for their BPD loved ones.

What is it with us nons, that do not elicit such deep and prolonged passion?

What is the "terrible beauty" the feral, raw, primitive quality about a BPD sufferer that elicits such a high price from their abject worshippers?  They are ready to crawl on bare knees on shards of broken glass for one smile of their beloved BPD sufferer, for one crumb of affectionate gesture... .   infact it is just the very HOPE of peace that enamors them so?

What Siren's song is this that tempts a non to forget the comforts of hearth and home?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The above is an oblique way of expressing that it is critical for your recovery to understand what blindsided you.  What hope and denial kept you in this damaging cycle for so long.  For indeed, this is not love.  What love is, I cannot speak for you.  I can only say categorically that this is not love. 

You may not be religious, but you have been searching for religious experiences in the wrong places and from a wrong person. 



You are religious.  You believe that Faith can move mountains.  Your Faith and Dedication and Love can change her, heal her, bring her to you in gratitude and love and adoration and that you both will then live happily ever after. 

What is religion but magical thinking? 

A statue of a person hanging on a cross is just that... .   or to a believer it is a powerful image of sin and redemption and death and resurrection and eternal loving embrace.

A stone statue of a woman is just that... .   or to one it is a woman who can come to life with total love and sacrifice and dedication and certain magical rituals.

A seed sown in sand is just that... .   or it is a target where hope concentrates its attention and waters it with its tears.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Please stay with us and please do look for a counselor who has an understanding of personality disorders and who can specifically help a person who has been in prolonged contact/love with/has a relationship with a BPD sufferer. 

There is much healing to do.  Lots and lots and lots of good experiences to create.  Many many many good memories to make. 

Who can say definitely whether God exists or not?  Divinity definitely does.  And it resides in you.

Nurture yourself. 

[waitaminute]

Elessar,

Here's my opinion.

You have given enough. Think objectively... .   Even take yourself out of the equation. Write down a list of all you have given. A woman who does not respect that list needs to just go and live her life with whatever consequences her choices bring.

Rebuild your own life.

Detach. You can be friends. You can say goodbye. But I think you need to free your heart and mind to rebuild your own life.

[NiceGuy83]

It is a love that is truly epic in proportions.  It is the stuff of high romance, of Romeo & Juliet, of Gone with the Wind, of Casablanca, of The Streetcar Named Desire, of Camille of... .   Wuthuring Heights.

No.  It isn't.  It may look that way to an outsider, and in the non's eyes it looks like it to them too.  But actually it is a terrible weakness; a subservience that no-one should aspire to provide or receive.  We do it becasue we are conditioned this way.

BPD sufferers learn to play to guilt and sympathy when they are usually very young.  They usually report having had some terrible abuse happen to them, which probably did, or why raise it (but I sometimes wonder).  Otherwise, they watch and learn from adults around them and pick the traits up from adult BPDs.  

They continue to do it through adulthood, never growing up, and part of it because humankind frequently cannot say no to an injured animal.

[elessar]

wow, you guys brought a smile and nearly tears of joy (i say nearly because I haven't been able to cry since she started seeing other guys)

and Pallavi, thank you. i don't know what to say to you. just... .   thank you... .  

I am too idealist. Too much of a romantic. Be it Aragorn's "there is always hope" or bruce wayne's "no. not everything. not yet." But I have changed since January. Today I am just wondering why do I even make myself available to her when she is sad/depressed.

... . because humankind frequently cannot say no to an injured animal... .  

maybe that's why.

[pallavirajsinghani]

Today I am just wondering why do I even make myself available to her when she is sad/depressed.

... . because humankind frequently cannot say no to an injured animal... .  

maybe that's why.

Misplaced altruism.

Imagine this:

1)  I am a good soldier.  I believe in motherland.  I believe in defending my countrymen, my community, my fellow citizens against all things negative and hostile and threatening to their well being.  I will even lay my life down for all these good causes.

   I am a soldier in Hitler's army.

2)  I believe.  I believe in eternal goodness.  I believe that goodness exists and so does evil.  I believe that the name of the goodness is Christ and the name of the evil is anything non-Christ.  I believe in the holy spirit.  I will do anything to preserve all that is holy and just and right and divine.

     I am an inquisitor in Spain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you understand my friend, what I am trying to make you understand?

That what seduced you was the Belief, the Faith.  It did not matter whether or not your belief and faith was misplaced.  What mattered was that YOU believed and that YOU had faith.

You sowed a seed in the sand with the hope that your tears will bring it to life.

Like the ancient mariner, you are now a sadder and a wiser man.

You know now that energy and time and attention are resources and we, the carbon based units have a finite amount to spend.  You understand your limitations now.  You understand your boundaries.  You understand now what you can and cannot do and that imagination is a powerful force.  In fact so powerful that you need to learn how to channel and control it instead of letting it manipulate you.

Religious you may not be darlin', believer you definitely are.






   

[waitaminute]

 Romeo & Juliet, et al

That was me. But I saw other mythical love too. Orpheus, who braved Hell to save his Eurydice. He was on his way out of Hell but he looked back to make sure Eurydice was still with him. She vanished. And good Orpheus died a crazy death. Orpheus should have looked after himself first.

Or Hero (the woman) and Leander (the man). Leander swam the dangerous waters to be with Hero. Hero just needed to keep a torch burning to guide Leander. But, ahhh, she slept and the cold wind blew. Leander drowned in the stormy sea.

Yes, I want to lead my Eurydice out of hell. I braved all dangers.But I won't look back. I'm getting out of that hell. Maybe I'll see her in the sunshine.

And if we were Hero and Leander. Yes, she let the cold winds of deception and other men blow the light out of the torch. And this Leander drowned in the cold sea.

She says to me now... . "Will you come to see me again?" I say Inşallah, God willing. Because it will take some kind of fate or supernatural hand to bring us together. I already did my part. Like you, I gave all. And that wasn't enough.

It sounds like you too have given all. Maybe consider the timeless lessons of man's myths.

[elessar]

I wish there was a "like" button or a hugs button to all your replies. Just wanted to say thank you.

Pallavi, dozens of people have talked to me about this. You hit a chord. I can't express myself. But I feel very happy and content since last night.

waitaminute, oh boy... .   I do not want to be those heroes. When I was very young I remember reading a poem. At some place like the coliseum, this lady threw her handkerchief down to the lions. She wanted to show off her friends how this knight who loves will go down there and get it. He did go down there, got it, gave it back to her, and told her she's not the right woman for him. If she truly loved him, she wouldn't have tested his love and put him in danger like that. That story has stuck to me.

[pallavirajsinghani]

elessar:

Sometimes our behaviour does reflect archetypal patterns.  It is amazing how my the "love" and "adoration" and "worship" the nons have for their BPD sufferer beloved resembles a religious quest.  It has its own pitfalls, tests, quicksands, dangers, tests, puzzles, beasts, purification rituals, mazes, demons and angels... .   runs a complete gamut.

I think your peace has arrived not only because you have accepted yours and hers limitations and boundaries... .   but you have also understood that she was a symbol to you.  She was symbolic of some type of perfection and this union was supposed to bring you to an eternal state of grace.

She was a symbol of something sacred to you.  Your own holy grail.  If these conclusions appears to be valid to you instinctively, then you will also accept that your own behavior was that of a knight on a sacred quest.  What was important was the quest itself. 

Your quest ironically was successful with the realization that grace emerges from within one's self.  It cannot be sought outside of oneself, nor is it a person or a thing outside of oneself.  That it is a state of being... .   self-deduced and self-induced.

The failure of this relationship has become the success of your quest.

The circle is complete.  And that is grace and calm and peace and centeredness.  Your universe has one center.  That is you.  This is not a narcissistic concept, it is philosophical and psychological.  For in this chaos around us, where is the meaning?  Where is the pattern?  It is there where we impose it.  It is what we believe it to be.  For this to occur, ego-awareness is the key and with this awareness comes self-acceptance.

Am I giving you too much psychobabble and poetry?

Perhaps.

My apologies.  This is how I think and speak.