Ghosts from the Past

[Depression = 72% of members]

My pwBPD will often say things when he's having a down time that really concern me. His father was an alcoholic and emotionally/mentally abusive to his wife and sons. When my BF has a "moment" with his BPD he will make comments like "I'm not good enough", "You deserve a better provider", "I need to man-up more". I know that growing up these are ideas his father planted, but I don't know what to say when he brings them up as truths about himself. If I tell him he's wrong it leads to an argument. If I ask why he believes these things are true he just says because he knows that they are. Then he'll pat me like a child and say that I am too good to him, I shouldn't put up with his s***t, and I should kick him to the curb because I deserve better. I never know what to say so I just hold his hand and tell him I love him and that I won't even consider leaving.

How do I wash away something that was taught to him so many years ago? How do I fight a ghost who's long dead?

[StayingWithHim]

My pwBPD will often say things when he's having a down time that really concern me. His father was an alcoholic and emotionally/mentally abusive to his wife and sons. When my BF has a "moment" with his BPD he will make comments like "I'm not good enough", "You deserve a better provider", "I need to man-up more". I know that growing up these are ideas his father planted, but I don't know what to say when he brings them up as truths about himself. If I tell him he's wrong it leads to an argument. If I ask why he believes these things are true he just says because he knows that they are. Then he'll pat me like a child and say that I am too good to him, I shouldn't put up with his s***t, and I should kick him to the curb because I deserve better. I never know what to say so I just hold his hand and tell him I love him and that I won't even consider leaving.

How do I wash away something that was taught to him so many years ago? How do I fight a ghost who's long dead?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

How do I wash away something that was taught to him so many years ago? How do I fight a ghost who's long dead?

You cant, and as you have found out telling him he is wrong is totally invalidating his feelings. His feelings are this way, and those feelings are real. If you say the are wrong that just proves how bad they are as there is no such thing as a little wrong. If you think they are wrong about this then you dont respect them and so you think thay are always wrong.

Moods will go to extremes that is the nature of the disorder. No matter how good and confident you can make them feel, when they are down they will drag every bad thing out of their memory to validate they way they feel.

My partner has similar issues with her upbringing and family. I found it best to avoid getting dragged into it, or they will use you to further validate those negative thoughts and so become a favourite place to go when they want to express just how down they feel. To the point were their recollection of past issues have been twisted to fit how they want to express their feelings.

The feelings of the now end up driving the recollections of the past if you like.

[StayingWithHim]

How do I avoid getting dragged into it? That's the problem I have. If I don't say anything or avoid him when he's down I feel like I'm not being there for him. Even when he tells me he needs some time and to let him get it sorted out I can't seem to stay out of the room and leave him alone to deal with it by himself.

[coworkerfriend]

I am working on doing exactly what you have described.  When my pwBPD tells me he needs space and time, I am giving him that.  I am accepting that I can not fix or change how he feels.  I am accepting that I am being there for him by giving him the space he needs.  It is a very difficult process but it is becoming clear to me that it is vital to our relationship.  My pwBPD often tells me that I deserve better, it would be better for all of us if I hated him.  I don't think you need to say anything - sometimes just listening helps.

We had a VERY bad month of March.  During April, he asked for time and space.  If he wanted to talk, I would listen. I did not try to reach out to him or start any conversation.  I was there if and when he wanted to talk.  It was hard on me. I felt helpless and I wanted to help him.  As May started, I became much more accepting of his need to figure things out on his own.  It became much clearer to me that if I love him and want a relationship with him, I have to accept this.  I am trying to stop myself from thinking that he is shutting me out because it truly isn't about me.  It is about how he needs to process things in his head.  My situation is a bit complicated since we own a business and have a personal relationship.  There are times I have to talk to him about work but I think he is starting to accept that more.

With that being said, this week, he reached out to me to tell me how much he appreciated that I respect him enough to give him space.  In my world that was huge.  I am still processing it in my head.  When I found this site, I felt like there was no hope but the lessons and tools that I tried to implement have made a difference.  It is not an easy or simple process.   

[clairejen]

Hi

I can identify with this. I feel upset when my BP pulls back. I fear that it is the "end" of the relaionship, or I take it personally and believe I caused it. I also feel impatient, thinking that when he pulls away for weeks, that is another few weeks we could have spent togehter, building the relaionship further---instead it is several weeks of pullin back. Yet as I am reading, this is a natural ebb and flow of the typical BP relationship--push and pull.

Claire

[Grey Kitty]

How do I avoid getting dragged into it? That's the problem I have. If I don't say anything or avoid him when he's down I feel like I'm not being there for him. Even when he tells me he needs some time and to let him get it sorted out I can't seem to stay out of the room and leave him alone to deal with it by himself.

I see that as two different questions: I'll start with a clear (but difficult) answer to one:

You avoid getting dragged into it by not engaging, and letting him have time alone. As for that feeling of "not being there for him", if you really don't want to get dragged into it, get used to that feeling. Learn to cope with your own fears and other feelings. (I'm not saying it is easy!)

The other question: Would it be more constructive to engage with him at this point? That question isn't quite as clear.

As the situation has happened before, and is likely to happen again, you could always try something different and see what happens.

[waverider]

Some good advice given by members. It is not easy to turn off the 'fix it" mentality. But that in effect is your issue to work on, you cant work on his issues but you can work on your own, and as advised it 'aint easy

[StayingWithHim]

Well, I tried giving him space and it wasn't THAT bad after all!

He had gotten off the phone with his mother and said he needed a few minutes in the bedroom to compose himself (she tends to say things that trigger him, and what's worse is that she knows it will). I said ok, gave him a kiss, and let him go. I pulled out my yarn and did some crocheting and watched a TV show with my daughter. He came back out a little while later. I asked if he was feeling ok, he said much better, and we continued with our Mother's Day plans.

He did say later that at one point he felt a little angry and hurt that I didn't come in there like I usually do. I expected that. I explained that I've learned that trying to talk while he's like that doesn't help anything and so I'm trying something new. I told him that from now on we can talk about it afterwards if he wants to, but that's up to him and we will not try to discuss things during because he can't think clearly and it only makes things worse. I also pointed out that I am never that far away and if he truly needs me I'm there, but it's not helpful for me to follow him around like a lost puppy. If he wants me in there he will have to ask for my presence from now on.

I've got to admit that was tough. I've never done that before and more than once I started to get up and go in. I had to keep reminding myself that I have to give space and not hover, be available but not TOO available.

[Grey Kitty]

  Wow, great job! Changing and seeing different results can be pretty amazing!

I told him that from now on we can talk about it afterwards if he wants to, but that's up to him and we will not try to discuss things during because he can't think clearly and it only makes things worse. I also pointed out that I am never that far away and if he truly needs me I'm there, but it's not helpful for me to follow him around like a lost puppy. If he wants me in there he will have to ask for my presence from now on.

I do have one minor suggestion for you going forward. This may not matter a lot since you don't need to give him an explanation anyhow.

When you talk about him thinking unclearly, or what is "helpful" (presumably to him) that is still a little bit invalidating. You could leave those statements out. An alternative I've used is saying that "I'm not feeling calm enough to discuss this with you now" or something similar--Telling someone how I'm feeling is less invalidating and harder for them to argue with.

I've got to admit that was tough. I've never done that before and more than once I started to get up and go in. I had to keep reminding myself that I have to give space and not hover, be available but not TOO available.

Learning new ways of doing stuff is hard. But it is soo worth it! As you do this sort of thing more, you will feel more comfortable with it

[StayingWithHim]

Ahhh... .  yes, I see what you're saying about those statements, Grey Kitty.

[iluminati]

You should ask him why he isn't worth crap and why he should be kicked to the curb.  Probe.  Ask questions.  As someone mentioned, saying that you love him when he says stuff like that is invalidating.  Keep asking questions.  Just be prepared for what comes out.

[StayingWithHim]

You should ask him why he isn't worth crap and why he should be kicked to the curb.  Probe.  Ask questions.  As someone mentioned, saying that you love him when he says stuff like that is invalidating.  Keep asking questions.  Just be prepared for what comes out.

I tried those at first, but I always get the same answers. "I just am." "You just should." and "Because it's true." Over and over and over again.

If I ask those questions when he's not in the middle of a low moment he'll say that that's what he's always been told and when he's down it comes back to mind and he figures it's gotta be true.

[iluminati]

You said something huge, and I want to point it out.  Look below:

If I ask those questions when he's not in the middle of a low moment he'll say that that's what he's always been told and when he's down it comes back to mind and he figures it's gotta be true.

There.  You have something to work with.  Next time he seems up to it (and make sure he's up to it, please don't push), ask him about the circumstances in which he was told that.  When was he told that?  What was going on when he was told that?  Why?  You have something to work with.  You'll learn a lot that way.  I know I did.

[waverider]

You said something huge, and I want to point it out.  Look below:

If I ask those questions when he's not in the middle of a low moment he'll say that that's what he's always been told and when he's down it comes back to mind and he figures it's gotta be true.

There.  You have something to work with.  Next time he seems up to it (and make sure he's up to it, please don't push), ask him about the circumstances in which he was told that.  When was he told that?  What was going on when he was told that?  Why?  You have something to work with.  You'll learn a lot that way.  I know I did.

My partner was always told and treated effectively like she was useless by her family. I have taught her to question the issues her family has themselves that makes them treat her this way. Hence by lowering the validity of past accusation,s and exposing the ignorance behind them, has lessened the impact it has on her.

This approach is not invalidating as it is not focusing on what she has done or thinks, but rather the third party source. Puts you in the role of rescuer rather than judge. Lifting the load rather than adding expectations. It is a slow process as these things are well ingrained

[StayingWithHim]

My partner was always told and treated effectively like she was useless by her family. I have taught her to question the issues her family has themselves that makes them treat her this way. Hence by lowering the validity of past accusation,s and exposing the ignorance behind them, has lessened the impact it has on her.

This approach is not invalidating as it is not focusing on what she has done or thinks, but rather the third party source. Puts you in the role of rescuer rather than judge. Lifting the load rather than adding expectations. It is a slow process as these things are well ingrained

That's exactly what I've been trying to work on. Getting through the "they're my family therefore they must be right" thing and saying "Hey, let's think about this. These people had/have issues of they're own and were showing that in the things they have said and done." His dad was an abusive alcoholic and his mom has a few issues that she really should seek help for.