bittersweet

[Depression = 72% of members]

Some of you already know my story. Brief, lovely, passionate r/s with my uBPMDex 2 years ago.  Ended in a heartbeat when he had a bad reaction to my caretaking of my daughter when he inadvertently hurt her feelings. We discussed getting back together a few months later, were both excited & relieved, but I asked him to figure out what had happened when he left me so abruptly & brutally, & I also went out of town for a few days. When I returned, his feelings were all different & we agreed not to pursue a r/s while he tried to figure that out in therapy.  He talked about needing to be alone. Yet, weeks later, he was pursuing something w/his ex-gf.  I began 10 months of NC b/c that was just too painful.  Offered to be friends about a year ago. We plunged into an intensely intimate emotional r/s punctuated by his periodic withdrawals & occasional declarations out of the blue that he only wanted to be friends, not friends leading to something else. Then he suddenly moved to another state. I alienated him by asking questions about why he was doing that--leaving here where people love him, including me, for a brand new start elsewhere for no particular reason. He was silent for 10 weeks, & that ended only when I wrote to him again. We struggled through some tough email exchanges in which he shared his anger that I questioned how he is living his life, & I shared mine that he dealt with his discomfort by disappearing. We both apologized for what we regarded as our missteps. He got a phone again & since, we've been back to text & intense email communication. Also made plans to meet up when I was traveling to a city closer to him for work. He had to travel two full days to make the meeting happen--it was a big effort.

I'm just back from that trip. It was great to see him. We felt easier with each other & closer, w/o the romantic drama, than we've ever been. He seemed to recall every word we've ever said to each other. Several people we met made comments to my being his wife, or that I should not let him go b/c he really knows me & loves what I do (he was describing my work to this guy in a knowledgeable, glowing way).

Yet ... . we stayed in separate hotels. We touched only to hug hello & goodbye.

There is so much cognitive dissonance in that for me, since I have those memories in my head of our incredibly warm, good physical r/s when we were dating. And because, well, with anyone else with whom I had the kind of dynamic we had on this trip, I'd expect to grow old together (language he used to use).

I feel like this friendship may survive & thrive after all. Yet--can I get over the feeling that something else, something more, is supposed to be happening?  That if I were more charming, more beautiful, more -- not sure what -- he would feel differently, & want to do what it takes to be with me? Which is not all that much--just serious work to identify & address his intimacy issues -- yet for him, it seems to be insurmountable.

[patientandclear]

Some of you already know my story. Brief, lovely, passionate r/s with my uBPMDex 2 years ago.  Ended in a heartbeat when he had a bad reaction to my caretaking of my daughter when he inadvertently hurt her feelings. We discussed getting back together a few months later, were both excited & relieved, but I asked him to figure out what had happened when he left me so abruptly & brutally, & I also went out of town for a few days. When I returned, his feelings were all different & we agreed not to pursue a r/s while he tried to figure that out in therapy.  He talked about needing to be alone. Yet, weeks later, he was pursuing something w/his ex-gf.  I began 10 months of NC b/c that was just too painful.  Offered to be friends about a year ago. We plunged into an intensely intimate emotional r/s punctuated by his periodic withdrawals & occasional declarations out of the blue that he only wanted to be friends, not friends leading to something else. Then he suddenly moved to another state. I alienated him by asking questions about why he was doing that--leaving here where people love him, including me, for a brand new start elsewhere for no particular reason. He was silent for 10 weeks, & that ended only when I wrote to him again. We struggled through some tough email exchanges in which he shared his anger that I questioned how he is living his life, & I shared mine that he dealt with his discomfort by disappearing. We both apologized for what we regarded as our missteps. He got a phone again & since, we've been back to text & intense email communication. Also made plans to meet up when I was traveling to a city closer to him for work. He had to travel two full days to make the meeting happen--it was a big effort.

I'm just back from that trip. It was great to see him. We felt easier with each other & closer, w/o the romantic drama, than we've ever been. He seemed to recall every word we've ever said to each other. Several people we met made comments to my being his wife, or that I should not let him go b/c he really knows me & loves what I do (he was describing my work to this guy in a knowledgeable, glowing way).

Yet ... . we stayed in separate hotels. We touched only to hug hello & goodbye.

There is so much cognitive dissonance in that for me, since I have those memories in my head of our incredibly warm, good physical r/s when we were dating. And because, well, with anyone else with whom I had the kind of dynamic we had on this trip, I'd expect to grow old together (language he used to use).

I feel like this friendship may survive & thrive after all. Yet--can I get over the feeling that something else, something more, is supposed to be happening?  That if I were more charming, more beautiful, more -- not sure what -- he would feel differently, & want to do what it takes to be with me? Which is not all that much--just serious work to identify & address his intimacy issues -- yet for him, it seems to be insurmountable.

[LetItBe]

OF COURSE you feel like something else should happen -- that's the "normal" progression of the way things unfold in a "normal" relationship.  It really can be so confusing and difficult to wrap one's head around.  It's only natural to have these feelings come up when you share such a wonderful time together, especially with your past memories being stirred up and the contrast between the "honeymoon" relationship you shared and this more realistic one.  

What if instead of pushing those feelings away -- feeling like you should "get over it" -- you accepted that yes, this is the way you feel?  What if you sat, fully present, with that allowing... . let it be?  See where/how you feel it in your body, and notice what happens as you give it your full attention.

Now might be the perfect time to read Tara Brach's Radical Acceptance.  Now might be the perfect time for us both to read it, actually, as I find myself missing my ex lately.  I know if I repress those feelings, they'll just get bigger.  Time for my own radical acceptance... .

Big   and   to you, P&C.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel like this friendship may survive & thrive after all. Yet--can I get over the feeling that something else, something more, is supposed to be happening?  That if I were more charming, more beautiful, more -- not sure what -- he would feel differently, & want to do what it takes to be with me? Which is not all that much--just serious work to identify & address his intimacy issues -- yet for him, it seems to be insurmountable.

 I'm sure you feel that way, and I am sure it really sucks to feel that. But his inability to take things to the next level really has nothing to do with you. Never did, never will.

Being in a r/s that makes you feel that was isn't good for you. Do you think you can challenge your heart to drop that sort of belief?

[patientandclear]

I feel like this friendship may survive & thrive after all. Yet--can I get over the feeling that something else, something more, is supposed to be happening?  That if I were more charming, more beautiful, more -- not sure what -- he would feel differently, & want to do what it takes to be with me? Which is not all that much--just serious work to identify & address his intimacy issues -- yet for him, it seems to be insurmountable.

 I'm sure you feel that way, and I am sure it really sucks to feel that. But his inability to take things to the next level really has nothing to do with you. Never did, never will.

Being in a r/s that makes you feel that was isn't good for you. Do you think you can challenge your heart to drop that sort of belief?

My L6 knowledge is that the relationship isn't making me feel that way.  That's my own baggage.  The relationship is one in which he is offering me who he actually is & what he can actually share.  My idea that I could expand that by trying harder is the problem at this point.  (Earlier, he painted a very different picture of what he was offering, and at that point, the r/s was the problem, but we are way past that now.  He hasn't over-promised and I find what he actually does offer worthwhile.)

I guess what I am really saying is -- if I am going to do this, I had better give up on the idea that I can do something to change what he brings to the table.  If he expands that it will have to be because he wants to and becomes able to for his own reasons.

[Whatwasthat]

Dear P and C   

You sound so very self aware about this. I really admire your strength in getting to this point. I don't think I could have done it!

You talk about needing to let go of the old reality that your ex so passionately conveyed - and accept the limited  friendship that he now appears to offer.

I wonder if this process of letting go would be easier if you were able to more fully mourn the loss of what you thought you had with him in the first place? I do think it's hard to get at the quiet but deep sadness sometimes. Certainly it is when we've been through so much shock - as both you and I did I think. From what you've written in the past I know that you've let go of the idea that he can himself share this path of mourning with you - if he could it would be much easier of course!

What might help you access the sense of loss so it can be fully felt and let go do you think? For me physical therapies - such as reflexology, restorative yoga and cranio-sacral therapy always help with that. Meditation too. But only in conjunction with something more active. I'm a firm believer that the whole body has a role in processing emotions and they are sometimes more effectively reached that way than through talking therapy.

Maybe you feel this is work that's already been done. And perhaps it has. But it's possible that there are extra layers of feeling still to be accessed and worked through and that doing so could help you move from 'then' to 'now'.

Sending warm   WWT

[MaybeSo]

"Which is not all that much... . just some serious work to identify and address his intimacy issues... . "... .


?

You don't really believe that, right?

This is not about you Not being "good enough" and if you were just more charming or prettier, he would be willing to give up his intimacy issues like giving up smoking or something... . and even if it were that simple, it's still not about you.

This IS who he is. Attachment issues are deeply, deeply embeded, and shapes our style of

relating and personalty, how we perceive and respond to the world, it's who you are.

It's doesn't just "get different" by addressing intimacy issues in therapy.

It would be like you changing who you are at your core just by changing your hair style.

This isn't about your worth. What pay-off do you get by telling yourself that story?

-denial?

-a false sense of control over the uncontrollable?

-false hope?

-some sad but comfortable verification of a belief you hold about your own self-worth ( we like to

be shown our beliefs are accurate, even if they make us feel sucky... . we get to be right!)

-my personal favorite... . I want it to be about me so when/if he does get better, it will also be

all about ME and the SPECIAL way I loved him that no other woman was able to achieve... .

God, P&C,  if being more charming or prettier was all it took, and some therapy to address

intimacy issues,  PD wouldn't even exist in the world! There is always a shiny new object out

there... . that and 8 years of T hasn't  cured my guys attachment issues!

This has nothing to do with us, or any of the women our guys date or hang-out with over the years.

[patientandclear]

NonGF, I read Tara Brach last night at your suggestion--good call.

WWT, so good to hear from you!  Check for a PM later.

MaybeSo, of course, you are right. When I wrote that what he'd need to do to change isn't much actualy -- I meant to add some sort of ironic disclaimer but didn't. Or maybe it was a telling Freudian slip & at some level, I do still think it's not that bhig a deal for him to deal w/his tough attachment issues & the fact that he doesn't reflects on me somehow.

I hear you that it isn't a question of being prettier or more compelling, giving him a better reason to dig deep & do the hard work. But I can see that I still retain that instinct that this is my own inadequacy somehow. Or like you say, an impulse to prove that I am so special. That I can be the one (The One) for whom/with whom he can climb out of the bog and be truly happy.

I gotta deal with that. At this point, it's me that's causing my pain around this, not him.

[Suzn]

Or maybe it was a telling Freudian slip & at some level, I do still think it's not that bhig a deal for him to deal w/his tough attachment issues & the fact that he doesn't reflects on me somehow.

PnC look at the fact that you yourself have struggled for a very long time to come to terms with you not being able to change/have an effect on him. You have no control over someone else's psyche.

“Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have in trying to change others.” ~Jacob M. Braude

This quote had a profound effect on me once I internalized it.

Or like you say, an impulse to prove that I am so special. That I can be the one (The One) for whom/with whom he can climb out of the bog and be truly happy.

There are some things that have to be done alone, VERY alone, even if you were married, the desire has to be cultivated alone. Have you internalized this? The words alone will not do it. We read these words often here, we say these words often here, it means nothing unless we internalize them.

I gotta deal with that. At this point, it's me that's causing my pain around this, not him.

This is a sound realization.

[patientandclear]

I still do have regrets that I walked away from any sort of romantic r/s with him two years ago when he first had an emotionally violent reaction to a stew of closeness, planning for the future, me being absent/inaccessible, and my caretaking obligations to my daughter.  It took a long time for him to say so, but although he had declared things to be "over," he later said he'd always thought we'd talk and sort it out.  I took him at his word, including when he said he wasn't sure he should be in a r/s.  Before I knew about BPD.  I said, very rationally, that he should figure that one out first, and then let me know if he wanted to try again with some awareness about what had driven him to bolt without any apparent willingness to work on any issues with me.

I now feel that he experienced that as a profound rejection.  I was saying I wouldn't be with him as he was.  Only if he changed himself.

And I now am not certain that is how I feel.  Yes, if he were someone who could more readily "do the work," maybe that would have been a smart stance -- put the burden on him to step it up.  But that isn't a very accurate picture of what was going on with him, I now think.  I think he felt I was saying I needed him to be a different person in order for me to accept him and be with him.  I'm feeling a lot of regret about that now, as we circle and circle and are both very defensive and seemingly scared to try more than what we are doing now.

[123Phoebe]

P&C,

I still do have regrets that I walked away from any sort of romantic r/s with him two years ago when he first had an emotionally violent reaction to a stew of closeness, planning for the future, me being absent/inaccessible, and my caretaking obligations to my daughter. 

While all this was going on, wasn't he cozying up to one of your younger co-workers, even talking about marriage with her?

If you regret walking away from that scenario, then what does it say about your own growth through all of this?  What have you learned about yourself in the last 2 years?

I now feel that he experienced that as a profound rejection.  I was saying I wouldn't be with him as he was.  Only if he changed himself.

It's a slippery slope when we think we feel their experience.

Did you experience profound rejection?  Was he saying he couldn't be with you as you were?  Only if you changed yourself?

Keep the focus on you, P&C... .   It's the only way.

[patientandclear]

P&C,

I still do have regrets that I walked away from any sort of romantic r/s with him two years ago when he first had an emotionally violent reaction to a stew of closeness, planning for the future, me being absent/inaccessible, and my caretaking obligations to my daughter. 

While all this was going on, wasn't he cozying up to one of your younger co-workers, even talking about marriage with her?

No, that was before we started dating (though he minimized it to me when I inquired about other people he'd been involved with in our professional world -- just said he was her friend & had had to maintain boundaries there).  And then it was after we stopped dating & decided not to try again while he supposedly worked on the question of whether he even should be in a r/s (he started pursuing her again in a matter of weeks).  The paper thin margins as MaybeSo calls them on her thread did hurt, but no, he was not pursuing us simultaneously so far as I know.

If you regret walking away from that scenario, then what does it say about your own growth through all of this?  What have you learned about yourself in the last 2 years?

My regret is that I think if I had stayed with him on the terms he offered -- "baby steps," with explicit commitments or long-term planning -- I might be in a fairly satisfying BPD-infused r/s with him now, somewhat similar to the one you have with your guy.  Instead I wanted him to change as a precondition to being involved sexually/romantically.  Doesn't it seem like there is a viable path where you accept the other person being how and who they are, and love them anyway, with appropriate expectations or lack thereof?  My impression is that your guy's BPD ways hurt you, too, prior to your reconfiguration into an arrangement of radical acceptance and taking him for what he can give you -- right?  That's what I regret not having pursued.

Keep the focus on you, P&C... .   It's the only way.

Oh cryptic Phoebe ... . I am certain this is good advice! But can you explain in a little more detail what you think it means under these circumstances?  I live a full and engaged life.  But I can't be utterly indifferent to whether he is in it, or not -- if I were utterly indifferent, he would not be contributing anything of value to my experience of my life, right?  So holding the rest of my life constant, the part involving him is the part I need help re-thinking.  It's not that that is all my life consists of.  It's just the part I find intensely confusing, and where I'm starting to wonder if my loss is in part because I was rigid and dogmatic about how I responded to his very unconventional way of loving and valuing me.  I really didn't make room for him to be who and how he is, and still be my lover/partner in any respect except this current, strange, unacknowledged and denied, way.

[/quote]

[MaybeSo]

I think the interesting thing about my story, is that I gave him all the space he wanted... .

and he chose to get involved with, and sleep with, another woman after getting from me exactly what he always said he wanted; his freedom.  His excuse for straying in the past was because I was always monitoring our 'committment'.  Now he strayed because I didn't monitor it at all.

I guess my point is, there is no 'easy' relationships with these guys. It's always hard. It's always challenging. There's always a new curve-ball. 

The part where he pursued and got himself involved with this woman... . totally overlapped his ongoing relationship with me. Probably for at least a month or two!  And he never said, oh, hey... . fyi, I'm sorry but I met someone nice, and I need to go explore that.  No, he courted her, while Fing me. So, that means, while he was kissing and cuddling with me and hanging out with me at my place on the weekends like we were a happy, easy going couple, with tons of sex and the whole enchilada... . he was simultaneously courting and cavorting and seducing this NEW woman an hour away... . when not in my presence.  This was going on... . for at least several weeks.

Then, after several weeks of this... . he finally had sex with her and finally told me about her when he got back from a 3 week trip.

I mean, at some point, the fact that they consummated their r/s with 'sex' is really beside the point. 

He was overlapping the two of us at the same time, which is what he ALWAYS does. Usually, in the past, it didn't involve sex... . just  the threat of it; but we had a 'committment' relationship in the past, so I'd catch on  that there was a lot of 'atomosphere' happening and become alarmed about obvious behaviors... . and it would just be a Cluster F of drama/trauma.  Yuck yuck yuck and more yuck.  This time,  he got the freedom he wanted and didn't have 'bad mommy' monitoring him or fretting about him... . and he went and F'd the woman.  Basically, he needs constant adult supervision.  What a complete and utter drag for any woman who actually wants to have a relationship with a grown man.   

123 Phoebe... . I'm curious what your arrangements are with your current partner?  Do you have an open relationship with him?

P&C, you are not having sex with your guy. If tomorrow your guy becomes involved with another woman romantically, how do you see your friendship fitting into that?   

[123Phoebe]

I really didn't make room for him to be who and how he is, and still be my lover/partner in any respect except this current, strange, unacknowledged and denied, way.

No, you didn't back then because he tromped all over your boundaries at that given time, P&C; nothing wrong with not making room for that.  Sometimes strange, unacknowledged and denied might be the best you're going to get; is this enough for you now?

Part of Radical Acceptance, is accepting ourselves (cryptic-- keep the focus on you).  I can't live a life full of regrets and maybes.  I did a lot of things wrong.  Not intentionally, but out of hurt and frustration.  I accept that about myself and try to do better now and into the future.  I'll screw up again because I'm human.  It's okay.  I try to give him the same leeway... .

Something I did do that was right, was STOP.  I completely stopped chasing after him.  I had to know what I meant to him, if I wasn't doing all the (codependent) work.  It's been since then that we've made progress and there are still setbacks.  I internalized the philosophy of having to be willing to leave.  It makes good sense to me, because that's how I finally stood up and spoke my truth to exh.  I was willing to leave the marriage when certain things didn't change, no problem(?).  The problems arose when my pwBPD started to 'abandon' me, too.  I clung to him like glue because I couldn't handle another loss and my mother was acting up like crazy at the same time.  It was crisis time for me and I couldn't do it alone.  I used him back then, essentially.  I used him as a crutch.  Then blamed him for not appreciating it    

I've had to get to know myself in a more intimate way!  Accept that I have my own issues which aren't all that much different from his.  They may manifest in different ways, but the core reasons behind them are pretty similar.

I've reframed 'Having to know what I mean to him', to 'He means a lot to me = scary'.  = Intimacy scares me; there I said it  

Realizing and accepting that I have a fear of intimacy (too) has opened up a brave new world.  I can't do anything about the past, except acknowledge and accept that it happened, learn from it and try to do better in the future... .   No regrets because valuable lessons were learned.

I've acted pretty darn crazy around intimacy.  I'd cling, get mad, frustrated, pouty, was overly sensitive to the slightest change in nuance, give too much then yank it away... .   What does that look like in print?  Like the way a baby might behave?  My issues began long ago... .   I've fine tuned them over the years to resemble age appropriateness.  Now I CHALLENGE them in myself.  And I don't feel any need to get all deep and serious with my guy about this.  It's very personal, my own stuff.  I want to give him the same courtesy to figure his stuff out on his own, in his own time, if he so chooses.

Who knows what will happen in the meantime?

Are you having thoughts that maybe if you had accepted him more back then, there's a chance that he wouldn't have moved away?  Moving is something he's had to do for himself, for whatever his reasons might be... .   His reasons might come into clearer focus over time... .   I can tell you this though, it's not because of anything you did or didn't do.

Doesn't it seem like there is a viable path where you accept the other person being how and who they are, and love them anyway, with appropriate expectations or lack thereof?

You might already be on this path.  What do you think?

[123Phoebe]

MaybeSo,

I wouldn't say our relationship is 'open'.  More like, open to possibilities?  We don't talk about commitment or rules or anything like that.  We're not married and don't want to be.  I have no idea what he's doing when he's not right in front of me.  I used to spy on him   He was always home alone and it was pathetic of me to do drive-by's.  Even still though, he could be doing anything, as anybody could... .

I'm more about how we are when we're together and if that transcends into when we're not in a different way, I guess.  Giving each other the freedom to be exactly who we are... .

So far, things are good and it's enough for me.  If it wasn't, I wouldn't be in the relationship.  I trust myself enough to know that now.

Whatever he does when he's not with me, is not a reflection on me.  It doesn't take away from what we have together.  I like what we've cultivated together.  If he becomes obnoxious (subjective) or starts treating me poorly when we're together, I'm gone.  It's as simple as that.  I know my boundaries and he has learned what some of them are, too.

If he started to seriously date someone else, I wouldn't be in the picture for all that madness.  

We're committed, but we're not.  :)oes that make sense?  We seem to be committed to growth as so far it works and is happening.

[patientandclear]

Phoebe, that is the kind of r/s I think could work with my ex. I am afraid however that we've both declared that we are friends only enough times that the fear of rejection on both sides prevents either of us from suggesting crossing that line.  I regret that I imposed such strong boundaries, preconditions or whatever early on after the initial blow out that I am sure he believes I have rejected any such r/s with him as he is.

[patientandclear]

I really didn't make room for him to be who and how he is, and still be my lover/partner in any respect except this current, strange, unacknowledged and denied, way.

No, you didn't back then because he tromped all over your boundaries at that given time, P&C; nothing wrong with not making room for that.  Sometimes strange, unacknowledged and denied might be the best you're going to get; is this enough for you now?

Part of Radical Acceptance, is accepting ourselves (cryptic-- keep the focus on you).  I can't live a life full of regrets and maybes.  I did a lot of things wrong.  Not intentionally, but out of hurt and frustration.  I accept that about myself and try to do better now and into the future.  I'll screw up again because I'm human.  It's okay.  I try to give him the same leeway... .

Something I did do that was right, was STOP.  I completely stopped chasing after him.  I had to know what I meant to him, if I wasn't doing all the (codependent) work.  It's been since then that we've made progress and there are still setbacks.  I internalized the philosophy of having to be willing to leave.  It makes good sense to me, because that's how I finally stood up and spoke my truth to exh.  I was willing to leave the marriage when certain things didn't change, no problem(?).  The problems arose when my pwBPD started to 'abandon' me, too.  I clung to him like glue because I couldn't handle another loss and my mother was acting up like crazy at the same time.  It was crisis time for me and I couldn't do it alone.  I used him back then, essentially.  I used him as a crutch.  Then blamed him for not appreciating it    

I've had to get to know myself in a more intimate way!  Accept that I have my own issues which aren't all that much different from his.  They may manifest in different ways, but the core reasons behind them are pretty similar.

I've reframed 'Having to know what I mean to him', to 'He means a lot to me = scary'.  = Intimacy scares me; there I said it  

Realizing and accepting that I have a fear of intimacy (too) has opened up a brave new world.  I can't do anything about the past, except acknowledge and accept that it happened, learn from it and try to do better in the future... .   No regrets because valuable lessons were learned.

I've acted pretty darn crazy around intimacy.  I'd cling, get mad, frustrated, pouty, was overly sensitive to the slightest change in nuance, give too much then yank it away... .   What does that look like in print?  Like the way a baby might behave?  My issues began long ago... .   I've fine tuned them over the years to resemble age appropriateness.  Now I CHALLENGE them in myself.  And I don't feel any need to get all deep and serious with my guy about this.  It's very personal, my own stuff.  I want to give him the same courtesy to figure his stuff out on his own, in his own time, if he so chooses.

Who knows what will happen in the meantime?

Are you having thoughts that maybe if you had accepted him more back then, there's a chance that he wouldn't have moved away?  Moving is something he's had to do for himself, for whatever his reasons might be... .   His reasons might come into clearer focus over time... .   I can tell you this though, it's not because of anything you did or didn't do.

Doesn't it seem like there is a viable path where you accept the other person being how and who they are, and love them anyway, with appropriate expectations or lack thereof?

You might already be on this path.  What do you think?

Phoebe, sorry, I missed this whole longer post of yours, and was only responding to what you wrote to MaybeSo describing your r/s.

These are very wise, very compassionate words -- towards me, yourself, the man you care for.  Thank you so much, once again, for sharing what you've learned.

Some days I think I'm doing the best I can and so is he.  He has made a lot of effort.  So have I.  He has come through for me, often.  I have come through for him.  I know we both have a lot of suspicion and self-protective impulses that make that hard.  In the end this is one of the closest relationships either of us has ever had.  I am sure of that.

Other days I can still barely stand the difference between where we are now and where he initially told me we should and would go together.  He carried me across the threshold of his bedroom the first night I stayed with him ... . he said this was so important.  It still hurts that he did that and then let it all crash to the floor.  It still hurts that he acts like he has emotional amnesia and needs me to have it, too.  The traumatic nature of the loss of what I thought we were doing together isn't fully healed.  I don't know if it ever will be, and what I've discovered the hard way is that that is true whether I am in touch with him or not.

It's not that I think he wouldn't have moved if I'd handled this differently when he first left me -- been more cool, not taken him literally when he said it was over, made some room for him to be his unusual self and still be my intimate partner even though he wouldn't admit he wanted to be except every other Sunday from 2-5 pm.  I think he did need to move -- I think much of what he's done in the past two years since he left me has been necessary self-development that has strengthened him as a person who can exist without drawing all meaning from an intimate relationship.

But I do feel like if I'd handled it differently back then, we'd have a relationship in which we acknowledge what we are to each other.  It wouldn't be all hidden and camouflaged.  He might have needed to move, but if we were together in an acknowledged way, I wouldn't have any problem with that.  I don't need to hang onto him in that way.  Maybe it would be a problem for him.  I guess it probably would.

You know the idea of Slow Food?  This, I guess, is a Slow Relationship.  It is becoming what it truly is, not overnight, but in sequential chapters that I don't necessarily understand fully as I live them.

[Whatwasthat]

Hi P and C   to you as always!

I just wanted to pick up on this paragraph:

... . But I do feel like if I'd handled it differently back then, we'd have a relationship in which we acknowledge what we are to each other.  It wouldn't be all hidden and camouflaged.  He might have needed to move, but if we were together in an acknowledged way, I wouldn't have any problem with that.  I don't need to hang onto him in that way. ... .

I'm just wondering why you think this would be the case? Why would what you have now with your ex be more open and acknowledged if you'd behaved differently back then?

 WWT.

[patientandclear]

HI WWT!   

Well, because I wouldn't have endured the humiliating, wrenching betrayal of him pursuing someone else months or weeks after we had last discussed "going through time together."  And he wouldn't have endured the loss and hurt of me cutting off all contact for nearly a year.  And we wouldn't have endlessly reiterated to one another that we only want to be friends, in our extreme defensiveness.

As far as I can tell, he doesn't "cheat," in the sense that he is serially monogamous and only picks up with a new woman after ending things with the one before.  I don't think we would have endured the hurts we've been through if I had stuck around.  Other hurts, probably.  Back then I probably wasn't equipped to deal with his withdrawals without personalizing them, and given that he'd already ended things so abruptly once, I probably would have had a very heightened fight or flight response to new signs that he was ambivalent. That's why I said no at the time -- I felt I would be destabilized by lack of certainty and commitment.

[Whatwasthat]

So do you honestly think that if you'd behaved differently  back then (I want to shout a whole lot of stuff at this point about how sane your actual behaviour was - but I won't!) that you and he would not have endured horrible pain in the course of relating to each other?

  WWT

[sm15000]

Several people we met made comments to my being his wife, or that I should not let him go b/c he really knows me & loves what I do (he was describing my work to this guy in a knowledgeable, glowing way).

since I have those memories in my head of our incredibly warm, good physical r/s when we were dating. And because, well, with anyone else with whom I had the kind of dynamic we had on this trip, I'd expect to grow old together (language he used to use)

He carried me across the threshold of his bedroom the first night I stayed with him ... . he said this was so important

P&C,

Can I ask you about the above. . .it's just that my ex had set up and I lapped up the same romantic, almost Hollywood illusions of our r/s. . .he used to comment on us both being 'romantics'. . .in the end it was far from the reality.  It really did make me think I was 'the one'.  It also made it incredibly hard for me to accept the reality of what a r/s with him would really be like.

Are you having problems letting this go 

[patientandclear]

SM15000 -- definitely having a hard time letting it go.  That's the "bitter" part of the "bittersweet" in my original post.  It is very hard for me to accept that what was originally promised isn't possible, when what we're doing now seems so warm and good.

WWT -- you ask "so do you honestly think that if you'd behaved differently  back then (I want to shout a whole lot of stuff at this point about how sane your actual behaviour was - but I won't!) that you and he would not have endured horrible pain in the course of relating to each other?"  You're right, it would be foolish to think it would have just proceeded in some happy, pain-free fashion.  Yet the course I did choose has been full of pain, and we seem to have lost the ability to speak to one another about our aspirations for intimacy except to deny them & thereby creating a zone of safety.  As a friend of mine said, "he can only be intimate with you by denying it."

Phoebe, I suppose, would say about that: "maybe a zone of safety achieved by denying aspirations for intimacy is the best you can do in this r/s."  I am just having the hardest time accepting that.

[patientandclear]

I think the interesting thing about my story, is that I gave him all the space he wanted... .

and he chose to get involved with, and sleep with, another woman after getting from me exactly what he always said he wanted; his freedom.  His excuse for straying in the past was because I was always monitoring our 'committment'.  Now he strayed because I didn't monitor it at all.

I guess my point is, there is no 'easy' relationships with these guys. It's always hard. It's always challenging. There's always a new curve-ball.  

The part where he pursued and got himself involved with this woman... . totally overlapped his ongoing relationship with me. Probably for at least a month or two!  And he never said, oh, hey... . fyi, I'm sorry but I met someone nice, and I need to go explore that.  No, he courted her, while Fing me. So, that means, while he was kissing and cuddling with me and hanging out with me at my place on the weekends like we were a happy, easy going couple, with tons of sex and the whole enchilada... . he was simultaneously courting and cavorting and seducing this NEW woman an hour away... . when not in my presence.  This was going on... . for at least several weeks.

Then, after several weeks of this... . he finally had sex with her and finally told me about her when he got back from a 3 week trip.

I mean, at some point, the fact that they consummated their r/s with 'sex' is really beside the point.  

He was overlapping the two of us at the same time, which is what he ALWAYS does. Usually, in the past, it didn't involve sex... . just  the threat of it; but we had a 'committment' relationship in the past, so I'd catch on  that there was a lot of 'atomosphere' happening and become alarmed about obvious behaviors... . and it would just be a Cluster F of drama/trauma.  Yuck yuck yuck and more yuck.  This time,  he got the freedom he wanted and didn't have 'bad mommy' monitoring him or fretting about him... . and he went and F'd the woman.  Basically, he needs constant adult supervision.  What a complete and utter drag for any woman who actually wants to have a relationship with a grown man.  

***

P&C, you are not having sex with your guy. If tomorrow your guy becomes involved with another woman romantically, how do you see your friendship fitting into that?  

MaybeSo, as I've said before, it is so helpful to me and, I bet, others, when you share these unvarnished realities and we can all let it sink in what these relationships are actually like even with "best practices."  In case I haven't said this on your thread, BTW -- that's just hard.  No matter how wise you are & how well you understand.  I can really understand how you might get to the point of "this is no longer interesting to me," unless he shows some further growth.

I actually don't have much of an issue about my guy having a romance with another woman.  Not sure if I mentioned it here but I realized a few months back that an ex gf of his seems to have moved to the same city he relocated to, several months before he did.  When I discovered that I thought that was the reason for his move, and I still sort of think that.  But.  Whatever that is about, he does not seem to be in any kind of r/s with her.  He's at home watching movies at night like old times, he paid no attention to his phone while we were together this past week.  I just don't think he can let another person in past his "wall" for longer than a few weeks, and though he might pursue someone, I feel pretty certain that will fall apart nearly instantly.  Unlike your guy, he has no history of any kind of sustained r/s.  I feel like whatever is going on between us is in a different category at this point, and so I don't feel threatened by whatever momentary crush he may develop.  I know I would feel differently if we were having sex.

[123Phoebe]

Yet the course I did choose has been full of pain, and we seem to have lost the ability to speak to one another about our aspirations for intimacy except to deny them & thereby creating a zone of safety.  As a friend of mine said, "he can only be intimate with you by denying it."

Phoebe, I suppose, would say about that: "maybe a zone of safety achieved by denying aspirations for intimacy is the best you can do in this r/s."  I am just having the hardest time accepting that.

P&C, we don't talk about our aspirations for intimacy either, fwiw.  We create it instead, in small increments.  In the early days, it was phony-baloney unrealistic fairytale land.  Sure we liked each other, but all those over-the-top grand gestures?  On both our parts?  We barely knew each other   It's not denying anything by not talking about or basing things on those days, as far as I'm concerned.  I would be surprised if my guy hasn't wooed numerous women the same way throughout the years.  I do not take it personally.  In fact, it kinda makes me laugh now, because it wasn't real.  It was so completely 100% unrealistic!  Fun and exciting, definitely.  Something to base our current time spent together on and strive for again?  No way.

Except for what it's brought me, which is clarity in so many other facets of my life.  I had been living a false unfulfilling life.  This relationship blew it wide open.  Things were bound to change.

Our relationship is real now, whew.  We still like each other AND there's room for growth with no urgency. 

I don't know how to advise you to go about it... .   But, somehow find a way to let go of those early 'carrying you across the threshold days'.  Live in the now.  Your relationship is in progress.  You just got back from a trip to see him.  It's okay that you slept in separate hotels.  It's nice that you hugged hello and goodbye and enjoyed each other's company.  Don't let the early (fake!) days taint your future time together, if you want this man in your life.  If you're spending your time dreaming about 'what isn't', how is it possible to enjoy the time that 'is'?  Or create anything new, based in reality?

It's blocking real intimacy by doing this, P&C!

We get what we give in a lot of instances.     


 

[patientandclear]

Phoebe, that's inspiring.  You're right, longing for a cotton-candy past gets in the way of fully realizing the actual, more grounded and real, chance of the present.  Thank you, not only for the advice, but for sharing how it has played out for you.  It gives me just enough hope to try to set the sadness aside and find what actually is or can be good with us.

[sm15000]

It is very hard for me to accept that what was originally promised isn't possible, when what we're doing now seems so warm and good.

Yes, I can understand it hurts when promises are broken but the language you focus on is the idealization, Disney stuff. . but since I posted you have had great advice from Phoebe.

You have a chance to try a r/s grounded in reality. . .most probably having to be taken in baby steps as Phoebe has said.  Don't try and run before you walk as the saying goes.

And, I can fully understand what Phoebe has said about the wooing of other women. . .and how when you realise it isn't real, it's so fake - why would you ever want it again?

If you're going to have this man in your life. . .do it with your eyes wide open.  Good Luck 

[Whatwasthat]

Wishing you all the strength and clarity you need to move on to firmer ground P and C! You're already sounding better - that's very good!

 WWT