Is BPD a "learned" disorder or is it chemically caused?

[cylec]

I have a reason for asking that question in this subject forum.

I am recovering from a break up with my BPDex.  I won't go into the story as it is almost the exact same as has been told by so many here, already.

I am working on the anger/resentment issues towards my ex.   

From what I understand the majority thought is that BPD is caused by outside influences (learned behavior) on the person as a child.   

If that is true, I am not so quick to understand they are just sick and cannot help what they do.  I am working on letting go and quit believing they are all nothing more than monsters who get tons of pleasure in destroying lives the way they do.

I am an alcoholic who has been sober for an amount of time.   I take advantage of the fellowship and program of AA in order to get better.  If we can take responsibility for our illness and make a conscience decision to want to get better, to clean up the messes and hurt and pain we caused others, then why is it they we have to give those monsters with BPD a pass and just accept that "They are just like that."?

I know... . because we can't change them.  For my serenity I have to accept that but sometimes the anger just almost overwhelms me.

[SweetCharlotte]

You could do some in-depth reading on personality disorders for this subject.

I think you would find that there is a genetic predisposition. Many close relatives have similar disorders or other mental illnesses. And then there is traumatic damage done to the person's sense of self while they are growing up, often perpetrated by those very family members who are also personality-disordered or mentally ill. And thirdly, there is the tendency to model the behavior of the personality disordered people in the family.

[cylec]

You could do some in-depth reading on personality disorders for this subject.

I think you would find that there is a genetic predisposition. Many close relatives have similar disorders or other mental illnesses. And then there is traumatic damage done to the person's sense of self while they are growing up, often perpetrated by those very family members who are also personality-disordered or mentally ill. And thirdly, there is the tendency to model the behavior of the personality disordered people in the family.

So, the bottom line is - it is indeed, in your opinion, a learned disorder.   I have done tons of reading on it and besides the "genetic predisposition" exactly what I thought.  Alcoholics have a genetic predisposition also, but we are able to face our behavior and make a conscience choice to get better.

I thank you very much for your reply, I know my anger is my anger to deal with because no matter what I am the one who has to let it go... . the creatures with BPD don't have any sense of remorse for their actions by choice?

[Octoberfest]

This link may provide some information- Post #5 or so goes into deep detail about the brains and genetics role in BPD:

What is the cause of Borderline Personality Disorder?

Brain structure and chemistry DO have a role in it. I do however also believe that ones environment puts one at risk as well though.  It is a combination, as is discussed in the post I have linked above

My BPDex's mother is in all likelihood an undiagnosed BPD.  

My BPDex's father left when she was very young, and her mother moved away leaving her to be raised by her grandparents.  Then there was time where she was raised by one of her former step fathers, her mothers second husband whom she had a son with and then divorced.  This man adopted my BPDex as his own daughter even though they are not genetically related at all and he remains divorced from her mother.  My BPDex has always felt a great loss in that her biological father abandoned her, and her family life is anything but stable.

I think what makes BPD different from other afflictions like Alcoholism as you have suggested is that BPD is... . simply EVERYTHING about a person.  It is how they think, how they act, and how they see the world.  It is really kind of a hard concept for me to wrap my head around. BPD defines how they understand the world around them and see other people and their behavior... . It is hard to admit even suspect you have have a problem when nothing seems amiss to you because it is your normal.  They do not have the frame of reference that we do that allows us to see their behaviors and label them "disordered".

I have not suffered from a chemical addiction like alcoholism... . the only "addiction" I would say that I have tackled is the addiction I had to my BPDex, if you would consider that an addiction. I found that NC, going out and meeting new people, trying new things, doing things for ME, any of those things that people do to "Get over" an ex DID NOT WORK because quite simply I wasn't committed to letting go and moving on.  There was a part of me that still wanted my BPDex, and because of that I wasn't able to move forward.  I didn't have the motivation.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think a similar principal could be found in recovering from Alcoholism- you have to REALLY WANT to do it in order to succeed.  If it is something that you are doing because someone told you that you need to, you will likely fail.  It is only when you believe in your heart that you need to put the effort in and that the cause is a worthwhile one that we can tackle these challenges.

So given all that, it might be a little easier to understand why people with BPD often struggle with treatment and even more commonly refuse to go to treatment at all.  There is NO WAY for them to have the motivation to truly get better and commit themselves to treatment when they don't believe they have a problem at all.  It takes an ENORMOUS amount of self awareness on their part to overcome the disordered thinking that blames others and paints people black, and makes all of the failed relationships and other horrible things in their lives anyone elses fault but their own.

The disorder runs SO DEEP within people that it is hell to try and combat it.  It isn't like a, say, tumor, which is localized.  Think of it as something that runs in the blood... . You can't be surgical in treating it, because it is everywhere.

It is hard to expect someone to change something that has defined the way they have lived their entire life.  It is TRULY saddening.

[Perfidy]

I had the luxury of speaking with a professional about BPD. It is no joke. It has been associated with abnormally developed brain structure. It has been associated with lack of nurturing as an INFANT. It was made clear to me that it is a serious condition. Meaning that everyone who gets dumped by their ex and suffers a melt down has reason to believe that the ex was seriously mentally ill. YA! I feel better.

[cylec]

I had the luxury of speaking with a professional about BPD. It is no joke. It has been associated with abnormally developed brain structure. It has been associated with lack of nurturing as an INFANT. It was made clear to me that it is a serious condition. Meaning that everyone who gets dumped by their ex and suffers a melt down has reason to believe that the ex was seriously mentally ill. YA! I feel better.

LOL, Perfidy!   I can so relate. 

I have done tons of studying, a bit of posting on this board, and read this board every single day, several times a day.

I reckon I'm just not in the best of places right now.   It is foolish of me to think I will ever get any closure.  It doesn't really matter the why of anything, I just have to keep focusing on me.

Thanks for making me smile, my friend.

Cyle

[cylec]

This link may provide some information- Post #5 or so goes into deep detail about the brains and genetics role in BPD:

What is the cause of Borderline Personality Disorder?

Brain structure and chemistry DO have a role in it. I do however also believe that ones environment puts one at risk as well though.  It is a combination, as is discussed in the post I have linked above

My BPDex's mother is in all likelihood an undiagnosed BPD.  

My BPDex's father left when she was very young, and her mother moved away leaving her to be raised by her grandparents.  Then there was time where she was raised by one of her former step fathers, her mothers second husband whom she had a son with and then divorced.  This man adopted my BPDex as his own daughter even though they are not genetically related at all and he remains divorced from her mother.  My BPDex has always felt a great loss in that her biological father abandoned her, and her family life is anything but stable.

I think what makes BPD different from other afflictions like Alcoholism as you have suggested is that BPD is... . simply EVERYTHING about a person.  It is how they think, how they act, and how they see the world.  It is really kind of a hard concept for me to wrap my head around. BPD defines how they understand the world around them and see other people and their behavior... . It is hard to admit even suspect you have have a problem when nothing seems amiss to you because it is your normal.  They do not have the frame of reference that we do that allows us to see their behaviors and label them "disordered".

I have not suffered from a chemical addiction like alcoholism... . the only "addiction" I would say that I have tackled is the addiction I had to my BPDex, if you would consider that an addiction. I found that NC, going out and meeting new people, trying new things, doing things for ME, any of those things that people do to "Get over" an ex DID NOT WORK because quite simply I wasn't committed to letting go and moving on.  There was a part of me that still wanted my BPDex, and because of that I wasn't able to move forward.  I didn't have the motivation.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think a similar principal could be found in recovering from Alcoholism- you have to REALLY WANT to do it in order to succeed.  If it is something that you are doing because someone told you that you need to, you will likely fail.  It is only when you believe in your heart that you need to put the effort in and that the cause is a worthwhile one that we can tackle these challenges.

So given all that, it might be a little easier to understand why people with BPD often struggle with treatment and even more commonly refuse to go to treatment at all.  There is NO WAY for them to have the motivation to truly get better and commit themselves to treatment when they don't believe they have a problem at all.  It takes an ENORMOUS amount of self awareness on their part to overcome the disordered thinking that blames others and paints people black, and makes all of the failed relationships and other horrible things in their lives anyone elses fault but their own.

The disorder runs SO DEEP within people that it is hell to try and combat it.  It isn't like a, say, tumor, which is localized.  Think of it as something that runs in the blood... . You can't be surgical in treating it, because it is everywhere.

It is hard to expect someone to change something that has defined the way they have lived their entire life.  It is TRULY saddening.

Yah, roger that, October.   

Shucks, you're preaching to the choir, reckon I'm just in a ___ty place at the moment.   This to shall pass.

Thanks ya'll.

[Perfidy]

Glad I could make you smile partner. I am so ready to feel better.

[Octoberfest]

I had the luxury of speaking with a professional about BPD. It is no joke. It has been associated with abnormally developed brain structure. It has been associated with lack of nurturing as an INFANT. It was made clear to me that it is a serious condition. Meaning that everyone who gets dumped by their ex and suffers a melt down has reason to believe that the ex was seriously mentally ill. YA! I feel better.

LOL, Perfidy!   I can so relate.  

I have done tons of studying, a bit of posting on this board, and read this board every single day, several times a day.



I reckon I'm just not in the best of places right now.   It is foolish of me to think I will ever get any closure.  It doesn't really matter the why of anything, I just have to keep focusing on me.



Thanks for making me smile, my friend.

Cyle

I would argue that the "why" can actually be very helpful in your healing process.  It has been in mine.  I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that you should keep focusing on yourself- but examining WHY things happened the way they did can be very liberating.  I know that I personally carried (and I still do depending on the day) a lot of guilt over what happened in my relationship, over things that I had ZERO hand in like her being a serial cheater and liar. Perfidy hit the nail on the head.  It IS a serious condition, and people with BPD ARE mentally ill. This is the "why" that I was saying is helpful to look at.  For me, truly accepting that the person that I loved is disordered, that the failure of the relationship and all of the abuse that I endured in it IS NOT MY FAULT has been CRITICAL to my recovery.

It wasn't me doing something, or not doing something, me not being good enough, you name it, that caused the failure of the relationship.  It is the fact that she is disordered. Relationships take work... . compromise, trust, both partners showing their full hand to one another and working together without any ulterior agenda.  Our BPDex's came to work with an incomplete and mangled set of tools.

Something that has been helpful for me to do was to go back to all of the instances of hurt in my relationship, the ones that REALLY stuck out (generally dealing with infidelity) and to look closely at the CHOICES that my BPDex made.  To make it clear to myself that she WAS NOT forced to cheat and to lie, but rather that she CHOSE to, of her own free will.  Now, it may be totally true that for her, cheating and lying is a coping mechanism.  Regardless, she CHOSE to do it, and just like everyone else in this world, she needs to live with the consequences of her CHOICES.

[SweetCharlotte]

Cylec, let me correct myself. I did not mean to imply that BPD is more developmental than inborn. Without the inherited genetic predisposition, it would not develop. Hence, genetics is primary. Then comes the trauma affecting brain development and sense of self.

I think it is possible that it would develop in some individuals without an especially traumatic or abusive childhood. If the brain structure and chemistry are especially designed for it, there is probably no need for developmental causes.

So, let me say that without the genetic factor, it would not happen. You have also alluded to the element of choice or free will. Whether the pwBPD has free will, or whether anyone has free will for that matter, is a metaphysical question. Do we choose to do anything or is all our behavior conditioned into us or even "predestined" by some higher design? These are questions that are not addressed by the social sciences and depend upon your personal belief system.

[Moonie75]

I Know I don't know enough about BPD, psychology, or human genetics to have an educated & well informed answer to this threads question. I can only comment on my own experience.

My Ex studied counseling at college & was bent on understanding thinking patterns & processes! She loved to acquire peoples views on the never solved 'nature or nurture' debate. I personally (with my limited knowledge of this matter) believe she knew she had a problem. If anybody said 'nature' was their opinion on the debate, she would have to argue the point. She almost seemed terrified at times that NOBODY could be born bad! She absolutely had to believe that it was 'nurture' that caused problems. She NEEDED to believe that bad qualities & perspectives were LEARNED from nurture & could therefor be UN-LEARNED. The prospect of accepting a genetic flaw that caused bad behavior was absolutely NOT allowed to be an option for her.

I believe she knew she wasn't the same as everybody else.

I believe she had no idea how to identify quite what was different because everything seemed real & normal to her & all her feelings & fears feel very real.

But whatever was/is wrong with her, she needed to believe it was learned & could therefor be un-learned if she ever worked out what.

You may think this would make helping her realize there was an issue would be easier?

Sadly NO! anybody else's views & observations were no match for her studied education on psychology. She knew more about the subject of people not thinking right, so how could I or anybody else be right?

A truly tragic dynamic to find myself caught up in. Like trying to tell a doctor you love very much, that even though they feel fine, they need a doctor! Absolute head___

That pi$$es me off to my core about my relationship!

[Moonie75]

As you you lot over other side of pond say, 'Jeeze'. Typing that out & realizing the irony of it has made me cry. What's left of my heart, really goes out to all those here who have endured this illness in their lives. My love to all of you & all of us recovering healthily from the devastation & deep sadness of it.

xxx

[cylec]

A truly tragic dynamic to find myself caught up in. Like trying to tell a doctor you love very much, that even though they feel fine, they need a doctor! Absolute head___

That pi$$es me off to my core about my relationship!

Wow, Moonie, well said my friend.   It's early here on my side of the pond, yet it is several hours from when I first started this thread.  I was just in a bad place when I started it and already feel better this morning.

I can't tell you, Moonie, and all the others thank ya'll for your responses.   Moonie, like you, it almost adds to the anger the complete mind screw even thinking about those monsters can cause... . and that doesn't even count the direct destruction they cause.

I reckon, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether their behavior is learned or not.  The vast majority of them chose to continue to do the damage they do.   My responsibility lies in the fact that I actually hoped I could make a difference.   Heck, I'm old enough and wise enough to know that if you keep a pet rattlesnake eventually it is going to bite you.

Thanks again for all the responses.

[Scout99]

Cylec, let me correct myself. I did not mean to imply that BPD is more developmental than inborn. Without the inherited genetic predisposition, it would not develop. Hence, genetics is primary. Then comes the trauma affecting brain development and sense of self.

I think it is possible that it would develop in some individuals without an especially traumatic or abusive childhood. If the brain structure and chemistry are especially designed for it, there is probably no need for developmental causes.

So, let me say that without the genetic factor, it would not happen. You have also alluded to the element of choice or free will. Whether the pwBPD has free will, or whether anyone has free will for that matter, is a metaphysical question. Do we choose to do anything or is all our behavior conditioned into us or even "predestined" by some higher design? These are questions that are not addressed by the social sciences and depend upon your personal belief system.

I think you are pretty much nailing it here, SweetCharlotte! It requires a genetic disposition that in turn creates a vulnerability in the infant. That then is exposed to trauma of some sort, that develops a distorted learning pattern that in it's turn creates core beliefs of abandonment and such resulting in a underdeveloped sense of self that then effects their whole perception of life.

It doesn't take huge trauma though to create huge damage to a child. The child is way more vulnerable even without a genetic disposition, so one has to understand it is not necessarily about horrible family relations and such but can be about small irregularities in the connection to one or both parents.

I read once that it only takes a few minutes to instigate depression in an infant about a study made in the fifties or something like that with baby's... . They let a parent of an infant experience their parent turning away every time they tried to make eye contact. And at first the child increases it's attempts to achieve eye contact but upon failing over and over again suddenly quits trying and gets into what could be described as a first step towards apathy, I.e. depression sets in just in a matter of minutes... .

To me that gives some perspective as to just how vulnerable we all are as children. And if you then add a minor genetic disposition to become yet even more vulnerable, it gets easier to understand how a disorder can begin to develop.

I do however think that one could also prevent a disorder from developing if one had the knowledge to begin with about a genetic disposition for vulnerability, at least in theory. But in practice most parents are not perfect, so my guess is, it would be very difficult to prevent the disorder from developing... .

If we were more interested society wise to build mental health as a whole as opposed to just trying to correct mental failure, a lot could be won by finding these people early on during childhood and adolescence. But that would take both money and time, and is not yet anyway a priority in most western countries... .