enablers

[Depression = 72% of members]

I see it as cutting yourself some slack, like you do for others.

"I have empathy for others and what they've been through. I guess I don't for myself. And I guess that probably leads to expecting others to fill that emptiness inside for me. Which is pretty rude and co-dependent."

We were made for attachment as human beings, our attachers are a bit sque'd but can be realigned.  You have been through so much and you took care of yourself, all by yourself.  You didn't do such a bad job of surviving.  Give yourself some credit.  You could of gone done a completely different road, took a lot of strength and courage to get to where you are now.  You had to work through stuff most kids never had to contend with in their families.  Time to do a little idealizing and putting that little girl on a pedastal for doing what she could to make it through.

[Rose Tiger]

I see it as cutting yourself some slack, like you do for others.

"I have empathy for others and what they've been through. I guess I don't for myself. And I guess that probably leads to expecting others to fill that emptiness inside for me. Which is pretty rude and co-dependent."

We were made for attachment as human beings, our attachers are a bit sque'd but can be realigned.  You have been through so much and you took care of yourself, all by yourself.  You didn't do such a bad job of surviving.  Give yourself some credit.  You could of gone done a completely different road, took a lot of strength and courage to get to where you are now.  You had to work through stuff most kids never had to contend with in their families.  Time to do a little idealizing and putting that little girl on a pedastal for doing what she could to make it through.

[Grey Kitty]

DA, it is really encouraging to hear you describe the ways that you are high functioning or coping with all the crap you were dealt. Because that is not the same as being unscathed.

Is believing that you weren't really damaged another one of those coping mechanisms that isn't serving you as well now as it did in the past?

[AnotherPhoenix]

  Everybody,

I too, have come from an abusive family, like many of us on this board. Mine wasn't as severe as some, like yours, DoubleAries, and some of the other posters in this thread.

I have disagree with the author of the book where the quotes state that an enabler or codependent person wants to focus on another person's to avoid focusing on his/her own issues. I didn't want to. No way. It was the lonely child in me being driven to because of my fear of losing a relationship if I didn't. In my family I was taught to focus on the other person's issues, such as "walking on eggshells" around my father.

All of this emotional work is fairly new to me. I started it about 1&1/2 years ago, with just getting in touch with my feeling. Only in the last 3 or 4 months have I really started to probe my inner mind through inner-child and similar work.

About getting in touch with your feelings, I used to have that problem. I learned to not express them when I was growing up, so I've had to learn how to feel them and work with them. I'm at the working with them stage now. I've read that helping children learn to identify what they are feeling and how to handle them is an important part of parenting. I certainly wasn't taught that.

So, I'm working on that now, as well as self-love, acceptance, and care.

What I found helped me get started with accessing my feelings (and I've read posts from others in the past that similar methods helped them) is to do something to amplify your feelings so that you can access them better. Later, it will get a lot easier. For me, it was screaming in the car (parked) or in my apartment when I got upset, usually because of something my BPD exw did (in my apartment, I had to start screaming into my pillow because my cats would start pawing at me, and doing other things to try to soothe me  ).

At first, I was just able to feel that I was very angry, but it didn't take long to start being able to figure out what was upsetting me and more details about the emotion, such as fear, mental pain/abuse, etc.

Congratulations, DA on your courage to change!

AnotherPheonix   

[AnotherPhoenix]

DoubleAries,

If I try to think about some of the really horrendous things that happened to me as a kid to prompt it, I just get mad. I can't summon up sympathy for the little kid who endured all that crap. I can summon up outrage, but not sadness, pain, fear--the things I know I should feel and probably do somewhere inside, but cannot find.

What do you get mad and outraged about?

AnotherPheonix   

[AnotherPhoenix]

About getting in touch with your feelings, I used to have that problem.

I need to correct this statement. I'm much better at accessing my feelings, but I still have to work on/at it.

AnotherPheonix

[AnotherPhoenix]

I'm not just trying to cope with emotions--I'm trying to give CPR to my soul, which is in a coma. 

You are not alone! We are here to support you and help you. You matter. You are loved. You are very special and wonderful!



From your posts, I can tell that you have so much grit, determination, and courage, and you have an amazing amount compassion and caring for others.



I've read that codependents/lonely children give to their BPD/NPD partners what they would like to receive. What did you try to give your partner? How can you give that to yourself?

I only decided to answer that question for myself last week (my emotional self is with yours in the intensive care unit). I gave my wife unconditional love, compassion, and understanding. In my next meditation session I told myself that I loved myself unconditionally, both verbally and emotionally--whoa--I felt my emotional supply go up a couple of levels. I've told myself that I love myself in the past, but I'm not sure I sent the unconditional part of the message so clearly. I've also been working on self-compassion and understanding, which has also helped my emotional supply. I had been drained for a couple of years.

AnotherPheonix  Lots of   and 

[AnotherPhoenix]

  How are you doing, DoubleAries?

I've read several of your posts on your background, and you haven't just overcome: You've done so much. Wow!

I hope you don't mind lots of hugs and compassion being sent your way.

 

AnotherPheonix 

[doubleAries]

Thanks, AnotherPhoenix.

To all, I think I'm making some really good progress. I had a long session with my T yesterday and yet another of my half-baked theories was thrown out the window. Earlier in this thread, I threw in the sort of addendum story about OCD. It's always felt kind of like "on top of everything else... . " but I now recognize it as central to my coping methods. When things reached the tipping point emotionally for me, I began to exhibit OCD symptoms that were intensely excruciating--worse than anything else I had ever had to deal with. Because THIS is where I could allow myself to experience the emotions that were forbidden elsewhere. It was also secret.

After almost 2 years of counseling (with a T who specializes in Personality Disorders and the families of those with PD's), my T laid it out for me yesterday. He said "I've watched you closely for 2 years now, and spoken with others more specialized than myself in some of these things. While I've seen traces of many different things in you--like PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, and codependency--you lack the required criteria of any of these that is the beginning of making them diagnosable. I think we are finally reaching the crux of my original question to you of 'how did you deal with all of this?' Because there are many methods used by family members of the personality disordered to cope with the dysfunction, but your situation was extreme by any standard, and your coping method would have to have met that challenge. Your descriptions of OCD are indeed OCD behaviors, but once again, do not meet the required criteria that would make it diagnosable. The OCD behaviors were simply your way of seeking control in a situation you had no control over, of wrapping up tightly and logically that which was not bearable--your emotions surrounding the undeniable fact that your own mother hated you, and your father used you for narcissistic supply--and at the same time, allowing some of the emotions exposure, but 'hidden' as agony and distress at the OCD behaviors themselves."



All this time, I myself have read about these things (PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, etc, etc) and saw pretty much the same thing. But I certainly believed that if there was anything I could be "diagnosed" as, it would be OCD (conveniently not addressing the fact that I don't exhibit those symptoms now, and you don't just magically "overcome" OCD or any other disorder). And the reason I thought this was not based on the criteria list (because most of those didn't apply) but on the intensity of my anguish over the behaviors.

This makes sense to me now. There were no obsessions (a main component of OCD) and only one of the list of compulsions really stood out (counting--but not the superstition around "lucky" or "unlucky" numbers). 1 (or 2) from the criteria list does not make a diagnosis. But I can tell you--the overwhelming distress I felt was horrific.

Where a kid of 10 or 11 came up with this as a coping method (I never even heard the term OCD until I was in my 20's), I do not know. What I do know now though, is that--again--I don't have repressed memories. I have repressed emotions. I have struggled to access the emotions surrounding those memories (some of which are pretty awful and would seem to lend themselves to easy access of the emotions). But when I think of my bout with OCD, the emotions are RIGHT THERE. No getting around them, no evading them. I think I finally have the answer to "so where did all those emotions from a truly horrible childhood go?" They got wrapped up into a very symmetrical, organized, thoroughly counted package  

Where it all goes from here--what I now do with this information--is a different chapter I suppose. My T has been bugging me for a very long time to write a book about my childhood. I haven't been able to because it seems so fragmented (even if vivid). I also know that at least one of my brothers would go berserk if I wrote a book airing what to him are "family secrets"--and he's diagnosed ASPD... . he wouldn't just verbalize his anger. But who knows? Maybe I'll do it anyway. Can't imagine who would want to read something like that. 

[Rose Tiger]

Wow!  That is a huge insight!  Using OCD techniques to survive.  Very interesting, a child attempting to have control over something to deal with the emotions and the abuse.  And it kept you from going down a more disordered path.  Wow!

Last weekend I had this intense desire to watch the movie Aliens 2 with Sigorney Weaver.  I search it out on comcast, agree to pay the $2.99.  For some reason, I wanted to see a woman protecting a little girl against really bad monsters.  Sort of reminds me of now, Big Rose Tiger helping little Rose Tiger escape from the dark place.  Sigorney kicks alien butt. You might enjoy watching this sometime.

I think there are quite a few folks that would benefit from your book, it's not so much about the bad stuff, it's feeling so alone, an outsider to the world.  As if you are the only person that had a rough time and then they read your book and feel not so alone and hopeful that things can get better.  Your bro doesn't need to know about it, there are lots of books in the world and you can use a pen name. 

[doubleAries]

I'm excited.

I wrote 3 paragraphs on the book a few weeks ago and then got completely and utterly stuck. This realization changes things completely for me. I have finally found the "door" I've been looking for, the access to inside myself. And I wrote 12 pages in one day on the book.

[Gladto be away]

DA I haven't posted in a long time. Your story touched me in the fact I too went through some severe abuse as a child. I thought I was puttering along and had dealt with the issues until I met another of my siblings and found out not even my father loved me. I was the black sheep the bad child.

What made me bad was I spoke the truth. They (my dis-functioning family) didn't like the truth. My mother became jealous if me around the 6th grade and though the abuse was bad before it became worse after. My father was a very ill man, bipolar with other mental issues, and a child molestor. My step father walked around with blinders on and my step mother did the same.

I am angry that they justify my mother beating me so badly it looked like she broke my cheek bone, jaw, and ribs for taking a diet pill. I literally can't remember my mother EVER being truely nice to me unless there was an ulterior motive. Like someone calling and turning her in for abuse or spending our survivor benefits on drugs and such.

To me it seemed I was the reason for all her failures. I was an ill child and had to have major surgery at the age of 4 1/2, and for some reason I became the child they didn't like. As a matter of fact there are only two pictures of me when I was young. There are no baby pictures of me. There are so many more things including some quite recently. Right, wrong or indifferent I was never defended. I was bad regardless of the what happened. I didn't even have to be in the same room and some how it was my fault.

I have found a wonderful man. I was single for a little over a year before I met him. In March we went and met my family and he got to see the dysfunction. I got to see the dynamics and how I responded. He advices me to cut ties to them and let them go.

For some reason this visit has opened up old wounds. I realized I am alone in the family fact. I realized if I died tomorrow the only thing my mother and my sister would do is play the part. It would garner them sympathy. If I didn't call them they wouldn't know if I was alive or dead. To be honest they don't care unless they need something from me.

I don't know who I'm enabling because I do tend to be completely honest with people. I did enable my ex and should have told him to piss off the first time he screwed up. I don't understand how normal relationships are suppose to work. I try like hell and have been told I try to hard. How is it after all the therapy I had an am basically back to square one? My personal growth has actually reversed. I am back to feeling like a failure and a worthless human being. Sorry I didn't mean to hijack this thread, just some thoughts I'm having.

[doubleAries]

Hi Glad to be away, and welcome back.

I don't at all consider this to be a "hijacking" of the thread--in fact, if you read through the rest of it, you'll see it kind of morphed into exactly what you are talking about.

I do understand what you are talking about. My family's dynamics are beyond bizarre. There was no "normalizing" any of it, because it was just too weird and violent for that. A question my T has asked me over and over is "how did you get through this? What coping mechanisms did you use?" and I kept saying "I don't know" which doesn't make sense at all. Pretty important events to not know how I dealt with them.

I came home from school once and put my school books in my room and saw that there was a very large butcher knife sticking out of my pillow. I stood there for some time, trying to decide if my mom or my younger brother did this. To this day, I don't really know (it would have been "defiant and selfish" for me to ask), but I finally decided it must have been my younger brother--my mom wasn't quite that "subtle".

Even though everyone in my family was very well aware that our mom had some pretty serious issues with feeling threatened by ALL other women, they still like to pretend (and expect me to as well) that the reason I was singled out for extra abuse was because I was defiant and "strong willed". 

While I knew my mom was stark raving mad, I was much more swayed by the rest of my family's opinions. That was what caused me self doubt.

The coping methods we develop to deal with the dysfunction in our families becomes deeply ingrained--automatic. We don't even think about it anymore, we just do it, even though the situations we are in now as adults don't call for these kind of coping methods.

[zaqsert]

Hi DoubleAries,

As a side note, I found what you learned about your childhood OCD behaviors to be really interesting.

There was a period (I don't remember quite how old I was) when I felt that if I did certain things with one hand (or one side of my body), then I had to do the same with the other to keep it symmetrical.  There was a particular pattern of taps that I would sometimes tap, say, with both hands.  But the pattern was asymmetrical.  So then I had to repeat it starting with the other hand to get the symmetry back.  To this day, I still remember the pattern, and at times I find myself doing it almost unconsciously as a way to help relieve stress.  During the period as a kid, I also remember feeling the need to smell my hands after washing them in a public restroom, especially if I felt the towels there weren't the cleanest.

Then at some point, those behaviors went away.  I never really thought about it before, but perhaps mine was also a sort of coping mechanism.

[doubleAries]

Hi zaqsert

OCD is an anxiety disorder. While true OCD (meeting the DSM requirements) is believed to be both biochemical and psychological (how could it not be both? When our minds and bodies are separate, that's called "dead", OCD behaviors (not diagnosable) are definitely thought to be coping mechanisms for anxiety, and often (but maybe not always) the type of anxiety that involves loss of control and the attempt to regain it.

In my newest round of research, I seem to be finding that OCD behaviors (versus diagnosable OCD) almost always involve counting and symmetry (very much less so the obsessions).

It's weird, because I've always known the OCD behaviors fit into this puzzle somehow, but just not how. Now in my case, it seems to be "the key". A lot of things are falling into place for me.

[doubleAries]

My T and I have gone around and around about my mom. There is only one "diagnosis" that fits--and it fits so perfectly it's scary (meets all 10 of the 9 required criteria  ). Problem is, that diagnosis "no longer exists". In the DSM3, there was a listing for Sadistic Personality Disorder (my mom fits Millon's Sadist PD with borderline features). It is still viewable on Wikipedia, but was taken out of the DSM for various reasons, mostly political.

As I have recounted before (via my T and my own experience), my childhood was extreme by any standard (guess you'll all have to wait for the gruesome book). My T has done a lot of research, and says true sadists are extremely rare, and that of the case studies he could find, more than 95% of those were men. Female--and mother--sadists are really, really, really rare. And of the case studies he could find, the no-good child of that mother was, in each case, a multiple personality disorder, and any other children of the sadist mother also had very extreme issues.

This of course causes me to be filled with self doubt (like so many things do), until I read that required criteria list for SPD again. I made up a little "test" of sorts to make sure I'm not actually a histrionic PD   just making crap up. I sent my older brother (who always thought I was just taking it all too hard, even though yes it was CRAZY growing up like we did) a list of various anonymous (unlabeled)PD symptoms, scattering the SPD symptoms in there, and asked him to put a red X next to the ones he thought pertained to our mother and email it back. I did the same thing with my youngest brother (but not our ASPD brother--better to steer clear of him  ). I expected similarities between our choices, but  didn't expect that all 3 of us would pick EXACTLY the same symptoms, without exception. Which is what happened. And each of us picked ALL of the SPD symptoms, and some of the BPD symptoms. The same exact ones.

In any case, my T says this is a less than once in a career opportunity for him too, and he really wants to know how I made it through this without becoming Multiple PD. I keep insisting "just lucky", which he's not accepting as an answer. And this is how he has finally convinced me that my story needs to be told and published. I'm 20 pages into it now. And every evening that I work on it a little (I couldn't do it chronologically, so I decided to just make "categories", my neck and upper back hurt so bad it feels like the muscles are being shredded by razors. And my stomach hurts so bad I have to take peppermint capsules to keep from throwing up.

AND I actually feel some emotions while writing some of the "incidents" out!

[slimmiller]

DoubleArias

Please continue with the book because I would love to read it. Just with what you have posted here you have shown a resiliance to the adversities you encountered in your formative years. You also prove that there is some choice in a way with how one develops coming from that environment. Reason I say that is that so many even professionals give some an automatic 'out' for unacceptable behaviour and conduct because they were a product of their environment. Which yes I agree to some degree but I too had a few pretty drastic things to deal with as a kid but I have no need to, as my exBPD does, hurt other people because I was hurt.

Also thanks for mentioning the book. I did a bit of research on the reviews online and because of the bad reviews rented it from the library. I am half way through and it gave me a bit of a deep in the gut sick feeling at times and mainly because I see the exact description of what shaped my ex. Including her inability to sever ties with her mother and she continues to allow her controlling mother to suck the life out of her. She has 6 siblings, none of whom are even remotely functioning on a socailly 'normal' level. I see so many glaring examples including the time I tried to talk to her mother about her (my ex) when i was still pretty niave. Before I had the whole sentence out she interuppted me and started to complain how her HER life was. Sounded so like Cindy Anthony

I love the discussion on OCD here as well. I have a few habits also that I now recognize. Tapping symetrical and patterns,... . a certain amount of steps in a certain distance, of course equal amount of steps with my right foot as the left. Most of those things have (had) completely gone away until I met my exBPD and then I remembered them again. I must be in a sense repeating childhood Schemas and needed a trigger (thus my ex) to re-live it... .

[Rose Tiger]

Starting to feel... .  be real gentle with yourself.  It's rough to start feeling the repressed emotions but they don't last forever, I promise.  Good on you for writing so much!  I suppose OCD is a way to feel some control in an out of control world, I'm starting to understand the hoarding my dad does and looking for evidence of it in some of my coping mechs... .

[doubleAries]

Rose Tiger -- yeah, I guess hoarding is an OCD thing too. I have slight traces of that--no major hoarding of crap, but like keeping the yogurt container because it might come in handy for something. When really I don't need or want it! I bought myself some really pretty dishes, but find myself eating instead out of the saved plastic containers. Have to "save" the good dishes for company (that doesn't come).

I'm beginning to worry a bit about the emotions. Am I just torturing myself for no good reason? Is there really any benefit to experiencing things from the past? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel, or am I just wallowing in things better left buried? If there is value in proceeding, and battling nausea and razor shredded muscles, then OK--I can hack it. But if it's all just self torture, to no real end... . (ah, the self doubt creeps in again)

slimmiller -- yes, the book continues on. I never looked at the reviews for the Ablow book, I just grabbed it. I find the Anthony family saga intriguing because it has similarities to my own family. But if the book has bad reviews, I'm not surprised. It's gut wrenching stuff, and many people find that "distasteful". I haven't forgotten the lashing that Joan Crawford's daughter received for her book "Mommy Dearest". You don't poke a hole in the holy shroud of idealized motherhood without some pretty serious backdraft.

I agree that there must be some choice in coping methods--all be it that the choices of small children are rather limited. And I certainly don't claim that just because I'm not a multiple personality, that I am unscathed. Far from it. When I left home (kicked out at 15) I was a real mess. It has taken me many years to become "just" codependent, insecure, and neurotic 

But I do agree--I didn't become like my mother either. I didn't become a sadistic witch with a need to lash out at others. I'm sure I've hurt people in my life, but not with a belt or board or fist. Not in an out of control rage. And certainly not for "pleasure". What was done to me is not an excuse.

I have figured out over the years that our childhood coping methods--refined and upgraded--draw us to and draw to us the kind of situations and relationships where we can utilize our "skills". These coping methods have become automatic (subconscious) through repeated practice. We don't think about them anymore. We just do them. Then don't understand why we are involved in what we are involved in. Why would I marry--and stay with for 18 years--a paranoid delusional person, who told me from the outset that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia? gee, I don't know... . but hey! if I could "help" him and "fix" him, then he'd be eternally grateful and like or perhaps even love me, right? Plus, as a bonus, I could use my extreme coping methods to cope!

I do believe that one of the things that made a big difference for me (as an adult) was cutting off contact with my mother 22 years ago. Too bad I didn't do the same with my father... .

[KellyO]

Fellow Multiple-Aries: I often comforted myself with a thought, that I was not made to be multiple-aries without reason. Universe gave us burden, but it gave us tools and strength to cope with it too 

I was not as horribly abused as you were, I was just neglected. My mother has never shown anything that even remotely can be described as "love" to me, and yet, I have  a sister who has very different picture of our childhood. She was her favorite. I grew up with deep feeling of being in mercy of others, like... . I was fed and given clothes because it was my mothers responsibility, but thats it. I was not wanted anywhere, I was a burden and I was just barely tolerated in this world. I still often find myself feeling that me even living in this world must be some kind of accident, and I'm sure I will always have those feelings in certain situations. It took me long time and hundreds pages of journaling to even find that feeling. Our shame and pain is deeply buried.

For my healing it was necessary to cut all ties to my mother. I have nothing to do with her, and I will never have. Period. I don't care if she is my mother, she gave me birth and thats it. I am not going to feel myself obliged about it to her somehow.

I cannot suggest you to do the same, most people think doing something like that is cold and heartless. You do as you feel right inside of you. I never felt I did something wrong when I cut all contact to my mother. It had to be done.

I have always been trapped to my intellectual center too, and I could try to understand things so much that my brains literally hurt. And I have a one track mind, so when I was determined to understand something, I could not think anything else. I was obsessed to find out the "truth". Getting in touch with my emotional center was crucial moment for my healing. Too bad I have no idea how I did it! I think I just asked my Higher Power to deal with my pain. And so it came out. Of course I had to do the work, but I think my trust that there is a Higher Power (whatever it is), that will guide me if I just ask, gave me the courage to let it all loose and out in the open. I know how frightening it is. But I did not want to continue my life as it was and live with that pain anymore, and the thought of nothing changing in my life and me keeping circling with same issues was even more frightrening. I was ready to do the work. You will be too when time is right.

The thing is, when you have once had the experience of letting the present pain out and living through what ever it gives you, and noticing that nothing bad happened, infact, you feel much better than before, the fear begins to go away and next time is easier. I have a feeling you are dancing around the pain and not letting it touch you. It is your Ego protecting you. It is it's job. Tell it it is OK to give some slack and see what happens.

[Rose Tiger]

Double Aries - Yes, yes and yes.  If you don't allow yourself to get in touch with feelings, you'll never feel the good ones!  My family is littered with auto immune diseases, rheumatoid arthitis, hashimoto's thyroid, endometriosis, all diseases where the body attacks it's self.  All from surpressing those feelings and hating ourselves at the core.  I got the endo, such a pain to deal with, had surgery, went organic in diet and much better now.  Those feelings are going to make themselves known somehow.  It's like peeling an onion to work through all the defenses.  Inner child will open up a tad to see how unconditionally loving you will be, how accepting.  When she feels safe, she'll let you into the deep parts.  You cry, you feel like you are going to die and then... . you feel better and like a 20 ton weight has lifted from your shoulders.  Light at the end of the tunnel kind of thing.

Also, as you get healthier, the healthier partners are who you will hook up with, you'll have no patience for unsafe people.

I watched a movie this weekend, Love Happens with Jennifer Aniston.  About a guy that teaches grief workshops, saying I know how you feel because he lost his wife 3 years ago.  But he was lying, he had never grieved, he was avoiding it, he was scared to deal with it.  Good movie.  

[Katy-Did]

Very thought-provoking thread, DA.  Thank you for your candor and openness.  It sounds like your therapist is one of the rare ones... . competent, challenging and extremely patient.  If I could offer any words of encouragement it would be to... . be patient with yourself.  Your survival skills have served you well; protecting your sanity

for all these years by placing your emotional development on hold until you are completely "safe"---safe from an intellectual staNPDoint... . and an emotional one.  If your therapist wonders why you didn't develop multiple personalities as a survival mechanism, then perhaps the process of unraveling/unveiling your emotional self is going to be equally complex and perplexing.  I imagine it's a process that can't... . won't be rushed into "being".