Marriage counseling "Madness?"

[Init2Winit]

Hello,

Second time posting, could really use some help in learning how to engage spouse into marriage therapy to at least get a handle on things. 

We did a little of MC before and it worked some, life got busy, we moved to another house within the same area and things have taken a turn for the worse with my wife's parents health and personal issues that have in turn challenged our relationship. 

I've asked my suspected BPD wife multiple times to go to counseling with or without me.  She has done some before we met (we've been married for over 10 yrs w/ 3 young kids), and she flat out denies that it will help.  Things are clearly broken on so many levels.  She is closet drinking, using kids as leverage, worse at night, name calling, doing the push-pull, trying to start arguments.  I've attended "marriage counseling" twice on my own ... . which at times feels like a punchline for a stand up comedian in that "My wife says we need marriage counseling... . ... you go and figure things out."

On one good note she did finally come to terms in discussing with her parents the item of contention (infidelity between her parents) and how it has hurt her.  She had previously demanded with guilt ridden insults that as a "man" I should "protect her" and discuss the problem she had with her parents.  With great advice from T, I flat out told her it is her parents, I love them, I love you, I'll be there WITH you but I can't do it FOR you.  Well it worked, but now stuff is back to the same old poop.   

I've stopped the trying to "win" arguments, listening, trying to validate, stopped defending myself and or actions.  But it feels like it is getting worse.  How do you validate, " I thought you'd be calling and bringing me flowers to apologize." a day after I was told to "just leave" when everyone but her was getting along ok with a family dinner?  I actually left, had a nice walk and came home and slept in another room.  I'm trying to establish boundaries but really... this is challenging - full-on MADNESS.

I enjoy movies. Remember in the movie "300"? When the king push-kicks the messenger into the well after the messenger says, "this is Madness!" and the the king states, "Madness?, this is Sparta!"  It is similar to my wife... . "Marriage Counseling?... . this is Borderline!" ... . "Hey, you're falling down the well in ugly form, you're an awful dad, awful husband, and awful at falling... . you should thank me for pushing you into the well... . stop trying to validate me! ... you owe me an apology and flowers for failing to fall in proper form like a man."  And then, "Hey, why in the hell are you down in this well?  What is wrong with you?  I did nothing wrong.  Maybe you can learn why you're so awful in counseling."


I know I must not play the victim, and I think that is actually a trigger for her.  When I do a better job about separating from the emotionality and not defending, she gets incensed.  I have learned a great deal from this site and I feel that I've taken better care of myself as well as chosen to be a better dad for my kids, trying to set an example of how conflict can be handled.  I've seen some of the success stories in L5 and those are encouraging.  I could use some advice on what has worked to re-engage the counseling efforts.  I've tried the verbiage that our therapist suggested with validation and stating, "I hear you and love you and it is not fair that you have to deal with this (her parent's issue) on your own, I'm here for you."  Etc.  but the reality is that yes this parent thing is a very big deal but there are on average 6-8 "big deals" a year and conflicts 2-4 times a week.  The relationship is in major need of help, I've tried to engage multiple ways to re-engage in counseling.  I have not threatened to leave... for multiple reasons 1) I love being a DAD and can't imagine not seeing the kids daily 2) I think she is so dis-regulated she would actually go through with divorce proceedings or at least separation.  I just witnessed a close friend get his life torn apart by not working things out with what I now suspect was a BPD wife in a messed up divorce and I'd rather be unhappy with my wife, and be there for the kids. 

Any advice is welcome.  About a year ago, I just made an appointment for us after multiple big blow outs and it worked in that she attended, we attended.  I tried the same thing recently, and it came back with " don't you dare adjust my schedule and schedule things for me without asking... . you can go." 

I know there is a bottoming out somewhere, I'm hoping that we are there or close.

thanks in advance... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DreamFlyer99]

First of all I have to say your subject line is great. And I love the comparison to Sparta, funny yet sad, right?

Did you have a chance to read the responses from ForeverDad and babyducks on your other post? It's really quite true as I've found in my own marriage, I can only work on me. A pwBPD will not take *ahem* "suggestions" that they need to work on the r/s too very well at all. (trust me, I've tried that from every angle I could come up with! )

What ForeverDad said about having Plans B thru whatever it takes is sound advice. The one thing you can count on with a pwBPD is that they will dysregulate and take things further than you can imagine and find ways to stir things up. I'm going to ask somebody with more knowledge than me if it would be helpful to move this thread over to the Staying board where people are working on improving their r/s with the pwBPD so you can get more help from the senior members there and get a wider response to your questions. i'm still on the learning curve myself, so i'd love to see more people help you out.

[eyvindr]

I2W --

Wow. Sorry to hear you're dealing with all of this. Man, does it ever sound familiar! -- particularly this:

I know I must not play the victim, and I think that is actually a trigger for her.  When I do a better job about separating from the emotionality and not defending, she gets incensed.  ... . but the reality is that yes this parent thing is a very big deal but there are on average 6-8 "big deals" a year and conflicts 2-4 times a week.  The relationship is in major need of help, I've tried to engage multiple ways to re-engage in counseling.  I have not threatened to leave... for multiple reasons 1) I love being a DAD and can't imagine not seeing the kids daily 2) I think she is so dis-regulated she would actually go through with divorce proceedings or at least separation.  I just witnessed a close friend get his life torn apart by not working things out with what I now suspect was a BPD wife in a messed up divorce and I'd rather be unhappy with my wife, and be there for the kids.

Some background -- in my case, my ex and I were together for about 14 mos, then broke up, were apart for about 2 mos, half of which was NC, before she reached out and I decided to try again. That was end-Sept, '12, and we just split up again at the beginning of August. Thanks only to my past experiences, I'm relieved to say that we weren't married or living together -- though she started pushing for both only 6 months into the r-ship. I have been married before, briefly, to a woman who I believe suffers with BPD. While I've never remarried, I did live with another woman, to whom I was engaged, who I suspect of being strongly bi-polar, if not a little BPD as well. Those two situations gave me MORE than enough examples of behaviors and situations that I had to live through to know that I wasn't going to get myself in that situation again.

With respect to counseling -- I tried valiantly to get into couples counseling with my ex. We managed to see 2 different counselors -- neither for more than 2 sessions together. In both cases, she refused to use her health insurance -- claiming at one point that mental health issues weren't covered, and at another that her employer monitored such things and, as a single mom -- a statement she liked to make in many situations, which she felt somehow provided her with special dispensation as an American (?) -- she couldn't afford to lose her job. No matter that healthcare is tightly regulated and HIPPA laws take breaches of confidentiality pretty damned seriously. So, I opted to use my own health coverage for the first counselor. The second counselor, who my ex found, didn't accept insurance coverage, so we agreed to split the costs -- but after the initial session, my ex never had the money and simply expected me to cover the cost, which I was unwilling to do by myself. My thinking was that I'd be happy to use my health insurance, but I wasn't about to pay out of pocket for it when we could simply find a different counselor who accepted insurance for their services.

Ultimately, her committing to and attending therapy regularly was a demand I made of her, if she wanted the r-ship to continue. Each time the r-ship broke down to a point where I told her I was ready to leave, she'd schedule a new appt, and then find ways to cancel and resched it (time, conflicts, money) -- she never went to more than 2 sessions on her own. On the other hand, I'd continued to see the therapist we'd first seen together through the break-up period and into our reconciliation, until the T and I mutually agreed that I seemed to be doing ok, and it didn't make sense to continue our sessions. She actually had the nerve to tell me that, unless I was in therapy, she had no intention of going on her own (classic refusal to accept full responsibility for anything).

Not sure this reply has helped at all, but I wish you the best. Do what your gut tells you is right for you and your children. You've already given 10 yrs of yourself to this person. It may be time to ask yourself whether or not it's realistic to expect anything to ever change. Or, how much change do you want, to be happy, vs how much change you can realistically expect to see.

Hang in there.

[whatshappening]

I too found this post very familiar.

The madness in my case happens almost daily, but sometimes really horribly and sometimes its just tolerable.

My UBpdw also thinks I should protect her from a couple of situations with her own family and mine that she escalated, because of deep seeded resentment. It does not help that she seems fine to most outsiders and her family is afraid of setting her off. So basically like the rest of us, I'm somewhat alone in this also. It also doesn't help when well meaning outsiders hear half of the story and say how they would have stepped up in some situation, though I know they would have been as reluctant as I was when the craziness exploded and I can't tell them all of the facts because you just can't explain this to acquaintances well.

Same timeline, only two kids and I also don't want to not see them daily. Especially with nightly tirades that they should not have to be subject to.

I tried the Steven Stosny Love Without Hurt Seminar which could if you are lucky and the circumstances for your situation are slightly different than mine. My W liked the seminar and he clearly caters more to women and doesn't bring up anything but what you can do in your own situation to make things better. I can't say its working for me, but I feel it would work for many. Your situation sounds so similar to mine I am not even sure this would help you. I have been meditating for about 3 +years since I discovered this and it does help, but it can also backfire because you are even more able to tolerate them and not buy into the ridiculous circular arguments, that they hate that.

Good luck man. I hope you can figure it all out and come up with a solution.

[lostandunsure]

I don't have a lot of suggestions... . Sorry... . But I loved the analogies! Truly awesome!

How many times has my wife done something to cause an argument, crossing some line, or just spontaneously raging at nothing. Then a few hours later, usually well after midnight, approaching me so that we could "both" apologize... . I often sit there wondering what I'm apologizing for, but by that time I'm usually in the "anything to stop the pain" mode and too tired to think.

I'm trying to now learn new coping skills and better communication methods. I'm pretty new at this and am reading several books and the lessons on this site and learning tons. But I do know what you mean, how do you validate something that is completely out there? "Yes, I know it's upsetting for you when I have to comfort you because you weren't there for me when I got bad news at the doctors office."

[DreamFlyer99]

how do you validate something that is completely out there? "Yes, I know it's upsetting for you when I have to comfort you because you weren't there for me when I got bad news at the doctors office."

GAAHHH! I feel your pain and raise you a ridiculous situation.

i'm still learning this stuff too, what you guys have said about validating WHAT? Oh my. I can't even count the number of times I've been going through something (like the death of my sister last year) and had my uBPDh say something like "it was really hard for me to not be a part of going to be with her husband"... . and I was like, WHA? Okay, and how exactly does my deep deep pain hurt you and affect you adversely? But the point was, it did affect him. i knew he wouldn't be my support during that time so I had my daughter go with me. And somehow I had to find a way to say something supportive to him about his feelings of being left out.

It's crazy-making, but it makes sense in their BPD world because it's all about how things affect them... . and they can't necessarily see that you are the one who is actually in pain.

It's a quandary.

[waverider]

You are trying to find reason in madness. Trying to use logic to address illogical behavior. Some of this "just is" there is little you or anyone else can directly change. You probably need to direct your energies more to getting on with life around this while minimizing its effect on you.

Validation does not solve everything it just desensitizes some triggers. They will always be a short fall in what you can do to prevent issues, thats where Acceptance comes in so it just washes on by (easier said than done). The less you engage in the behavior, the less she can use projection as a soothing mechanism. That is likely to cause a crisis (things get worse), before she faces the reality that it is up to her to get help and learn some self soothing, as opposed to sending you off to therapy, as you put it.

I feel for you, it is a hard path and there is no quick fix, but you can make your life better while all this crazy stuff is going on around you. But you can't evict her from her crazy house, she has to see it for what it is and pluck up the courage to want to leave the comfort it provides her. The reality of the big world outside scares her witless to the point she doesn't want to leave. The devils she knows are safer etc

[lostandunsure]

It's a quandary.

That sums it up nicely  

[DreamFlyer99]

Waverider, you said:

But you can't evict her from her crazy house, she has to see it for what it is and pluck up the courage to want to leave the comfort it provides her.

I simply love this. It's perfect. And going down in my notes.

Init2winit, have you seen this workshop yet? Radical Acceptance for family members When I first saw this title I thought "really? I have to accept that what is going on is okay?" but no, it's about what Waverider said, accepting that some things just are what they are, so now what?

I've done my share of whining and telling stories too, for sure! (I just did in my post above, didn't I... . ) But those stories did start causing me less pain and distress once I began understanding the dynamics of what was happening and why... . plus then I could start feeling a bit of control from my end as I quit buying into the neverending push-pull, circular arguments, etc. So I suppose this is where you now find yourself, right?

Arm yourself with the good info on this site and you will find you can separate out the madness and see more clearly.  You can learn, like Waverider said, to desensitize those triggers, let the madness wash on by, not engage in her behavior, using your energies for getting on with your life. And that's all good!

[Init2Winit]

Thank you all for the replies and sound words of wisdom and the time you gave for the responses.  All very helpful and encouraging.  I will definitely check out the workshop suggested, thank you DreamFlyer99.  Waverider, thank you for the reminder that I am trying to use logic to address behavior that is illogical.  I need to remind myself of this, I am super analytic almost Spock-like when it comes to problems.  Nothing escalates an argument like trying to "win with logic" or trying to fix things.  I've done good job with not verbally going for the win, but inside I still do ... . then stew about it. 

Where is the line between boundaries and emotionally abandonment that can make tensions worse?  Such as choosing to just sleep somewhere else in the house after bad episodes (drinking, name calling, starting arguments in front of kids, throwing me under the bus around friends/family etc... )?  I know that it sets a good example for the kids not to escalate the argument and state that "Each person deserves respect and name calling is not respectful, I'm leaving the room."  If I retire to our bedroom later, I'll just steam and stew if in the same room w her even if she's sleeping.  Funny, I do sleep better in a guest bed for sure and there are times she'll check on me at 2-3 am and ask me to come to bed and I just reply "no".  Any workshop recommendations on boundaries?

thanks,

[waverider]

Boundaries are not about little things, they are about big things that can do harm, either physical or emotional, to you or other members of the family. They are bottom line, and they trumph emotional abandonment issues they may have. Your boundaries are real issues, emotional abandonment is about perception. You can enact them in as least emotionally triggering fashion as you think best, but if at the end of the day it is taken as abandonment, thats too bad. They are often met with resistance and extinction bursts, and abandonment will be be thrown in to add weight to their scramble to get you to back down.

It is hard defending boundaries, this why they work best when they are important core issues with no fall back line, otherwise you will. If you compromise on a boundary it will make the solidity of all future boundaries worth questioning in their eyes, as you have been known to cave. They will have been taught persistence can pay off.

Boundaries are not just a BPD tool they are a good life skill

BOUNDARIES - Living our values

[1Cor13,7]

This is my first post.  I am sorry for your troubles.  I do see that your wife goes to counseling (even though it is intermittent) when you enforce boundries. Since so much of what goes on with a BPD has a kernal of truth, perhaps this limited success with boundries is something that you can further develop and gradually obtain more success. That is probably a secondary effect, more primary is continuing to focus on improving yourself, being a better dad, and improving your skills at being the spouse of a BPD. In this manner you will improve the relationship with your wife - that you will upset (in a positive way) the equilibrium of your relationship, perhaps enough to let her see some hope (another kernal) that marriage counseling will be beneficial.

I know this is hard. I have been married 16 years to a high-functioning BPD (she easily fits 7 of the 9 criteria). I only recently learned about BPD, and discovered that most of the authors on BPD have been spying in my house for 16 years documenting our lives - LOL. My wife escapes into affairs and is currently tapering off the most recent (and devastating one) at this time. This one was enough of a wake-up call, even to her, to get us into marriage counseling (on-going), although she doesn't know about the BPD.  I love her and don't plan on leaving, but man, its tough, I feel your pain.

[DreamFlyer99]

I know this is hard. I have been married 16 years to a high-functioning BPD (she easily fits 7 of the 9 criteria). I only recently learned about BPD, and discovered that most of the authors on BPD have been spying in my house for 16 years documenting our lives - LOL.

Well, they've been taking turns then with your house and mine!

Init, one of the things I am currently learning is how to recognize what things I value so that i'll make boundaries around those to protect them. One thing is respect, I knew that right away, but one i'm realizing more lately is that my physical health is high on that list, and so I need to have boundaries that will support my more recent attempts at better eating and exercise. And the boundaries are to help us, protect us. I like what Waverider said about them being about real things, not things we "perceive." With my boundary about my health (I have fibromyalgia) I KNOW because I've seen how I feel when i'm not mindful enough, it's measurable and concrete. The respect thing? That translates to stuff like no name calling, please lose the sarcasm, etc.

I think once you go through the Boundaries link you'll have a more clear idea. I know my T is big about "why would you invite him back into his bed when he just treated you so horribly?" because i'm not yet fully able to separate out my FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) from the reality of something where I can make a boundary, and draw a line.

I fear I am getting incoherent because it's late here, so i'm gonna stop talking now.

[DreamFlyer99]

oh--and Lostandunsure?

Yes it does.

[eyvindr]

Trying to understand them is a quandary.

Trying to live with them is a quagmire.

[DreamFlyer99]

Trying to understand them is a quandary.

Trying to live with them is a quagmire.

And BOOM!