Pretzel logic

[Perfidy]

This is just really an observation that I have made. It's been in the back of my mind for quite a while. Ok, I was the sane one. She was the not so sane one. I am ultra responsible in all of my affairs. I do what I'm supposed to do and when I'm supposed to do it. Comparatively she is a derelict where it comes to any type of personal responsibility. At least that's the way she was when we were together. She runs roughshod through my life. I know, I know... . I let her. Sorta. She raises all billy hell with me. Always like a spoiled kid not getting their way. Then when we split up she actually left me and had the nerve to say that it was more bad than good when she brought 99.9999999% of the bad into our so called relationship. Seriously? Can't she see that? For heavens sake she MUST know that! Right?

[bpdspell]

If she "knew that" she wouldn't be mentally ill.

BPD is a character and attachment disorder. Their emotional wiring leaves them severely deficient and stunted in the ability to have insight into their own behavior.  Can a three year old reflect on their actions? This is why they are stuck in a cycle of rinse, wash and repeat.

We cannot apply our reasoning with someone who' deficient in reasoning. I know it's hard to decipher and accept... . especially when they look normal on the outside. But they are wired differently from us. Therefore we cannot use ourselves as a measuring stick of morality or judgement of their behavior.

They're really sick people.

Ok, I was the sane one. She was the not so sane one.

This kind of labeling can be more hurtful than harmful in your healing process. The truth of the BPD dance is that it takes two to tango. In many ways we bring our own baggage to the BPD party and dance the night away as well too. It helps not to make it an us Vs. them kinda thing cause in actuality both parties bring fantasy/rescuer narratives that will ultimately crash once intimacy and vulnerability forces us to drop the mask.

Spell

[Octoberfest]

If she "knew that" she wouldn't be mentally ill.

BPD is a character and attachment disorder. Their emotional wiring leaves them severely deficient and stunted in the ability to have insight into their own behavior.  Can a three year old reflect on their actions? This is why they are stuck in a cycle of rinse, wash and repeat.

We cannot apply our reasoning with someone who' deficient in reasoning. I know it's hard to decipher and accept... . especially when they look normal on the outside. But they are wired differently from us. Therefore we cannot use ourselves as a measuring stick of morality or judgement of their behavior.

They're really sick people.

Spell really has said it all.  A big part of the reason I have been as stuck on my BPDex as much as I have been is that I have been trying to understand and figure out her actions... .   a task that is futile. I think I realized that a bit today.  As I posted in most current thread, I saw the new, new guy.  He is an overweight, ugly, greasy, trashy looking cocaine user.  A MAJOR step down from me.  At one point I think this knowledge would have almost hurt me more... . I might think "wow she is with THIS guy over me".  But now, I am far enough out of it to be able to look at it and say "Them being together makes ZERO sense. She is MUCH better looking than him. He is not desirable AT ALL compared to me. But she is with him. And that isn't because a cocaine user is a better relationship partner than I am; it is because she is disordered, and this guy fits the bill for her usual "type" (meaning guys who abuse her, do drugs, are otherwise not real savory characters) A LOT more than I do.  It isn't that this guy is a better option.  It is pretty plain to see that there is something seriously wrong going on".

I could drive myself crazy with grief by trying to understand why she would want to be with a guy like this guy, because, should her mind work like yours or mine, she wouldn't be in a million years.  But it doesn't. 

I am realizing that I have truly had a hard time accepting that she is disordered... . She is diagnosed even. But I have had a hell of a time truly understanding that her mind doesn't work like mine.  That things that are so obvious, aren't. 

Like spell said... . would you expect a child to own up to their actions and acknowledge their role in a very shameful and destructive relationship?

[Perfidy]

Spell this is the anniversary of the fifth month for me. The anxiety is nearly constant. How can I stop it? I recognize my issues. I'm not pounding booze. I'm not doing anything narcotic or otherwise. I have zero contact. I don't have a desire for her. I want to forget. Be indifferent. I had a t but I fired him. I know myself better than anyone else does and I refuse to use antidepressants.

[Perfidy]

Ok anybody... . Spell, learning curve, octoberfest, moonie,MCC,green mango,Skip... any and all.

Tell me if this sounds reasonable. What I stated above about my share of the insanity isn't correct? So if it isn't then her 99.99999% and my .00001% average 50%. Correct? That's what you mean. Right spell? It really was that bad. I felt like I was exaggerating but it really was that bad. Even when I was with her I did most everything alone anyway. She was quite debilitated by her illness. It really kept her isolated. Made me feel alone even though I was with her. I feel my freedom.

[Learning_curve74]

Tell me if this sounds reasonable. What I stated above about my share of the insanity isn't correct? So if it isn't then her 99.99999% and my .00001% average 50%. Correct? That's what you mean. Right spell? It really was that bad. I felt like I was exaggerating but it really was that bad. Even when I was with her I did most everything alone anyway. She was quite debilitated by her illness. It really kept her isolated. Made me feel alone even though I was with her. I feel my freedom.

Perfidy, I think that your ex probably was responsible for 99.99999% of the awful stuff that happened in your relationship. But continuing with the relationship was 100% her choice and 100% your choice: either one of you could have chosen to leave at any time. I'm not saying it would've been easy because then I'd be a liar! I didn't stay as long as you and I was the one who ended it with my BPDex, but I definitely stayed long enough to receive abuse and put up with BS that I wouldn't normally take from anybody for one second.

Remember that BPDers are experts in splitting, projection, and trying to avoid feelings of shame. She might feel shame for having been such a burden on you and even maybe thinking she hurt you, but that also makes her the "bad guy" all feelings she can't stand, so she projects that onto you making you the "bad guy" who brought all the bad stuff to the relationship. So instead of her saviour, she ended up seeing you as her abuser and eventually ran away. Yes, it's f**ked up thinking, that's why it's mental illness!  

Hang in there. For me it comes in waves: calm for a while, then I'm hit. Just gotta get through it.  

[vre]

Most of the people here have gotten much worse treatment from their SOs than they've given in return.

I could tally up all the bad behavior that took place in my marriage, and nearly all of it would be my xW's.

I still wouldn't go and ascribe all the "insanity" to her. My share of the "insanity" was my endlessly putting up with hers! That's on me.

[bpdspell]

The anxiety is nearly constant. How can I stop it? I recognize my issues. I'm not pounding booze. I'm not doing anything narcotic or otherwise. I have zero contact. I don't have a desire for her. I want to forget. Be indifferent. I had a t but I fired him. I know myself better than anyone else does and I refuse to use antidepressants.

Hey Perfidy,

You've been with this woman for eight years. Eight years.

Five months out is only the tip of the iceberg in your healing.

You have to be patient with yourself and take it minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. The only way out is through. That means mourning and grieving and feeling the feelings of hurt and sadness. These sad feelings are sometimes overwhelming but validating them are what's necessary. Validating our pain is a struggle for many of us on here because we are used to intellectualizing our way out of uncomfortable feelings and thoughts. We cannot think our way out of this by placating blame, buying a mortgage in justified rage, overanalyzing every ounce of the past or trying to decipher the jigsaw puzzle that is THEIR logic.

We have to feel our own feelings and make peace with the fact that this person never had the keys to our happiness.

We cannot arrive at healing by circumventing our grief. Our feelings will always demand acknowledgement and respect... . only then can true inner peace come.

As for your anxiety there are proactive things you can do: exercise, ride a bike, take a boxing class, go for long walks, spend time with friends and family, watch comedies, take a trip to a place you've always wanted to see... . or even find a new therapist.  

My BPDexbf betrayed me horribly. I found a woman in his bed, he cheated on me Christmas day and physically assaulted me when I began to power down and make my exit. All of that abuse and he still felt entitled to my wallet.

When he physically assaulted me he blamed ME. Said it was my fault because I made him possessive and jealous.    

I think I get what you're feeling. You want your ex to be accountable for her behavior. You want her to validate how much you've given her and how much you've sacrificed yourself to keep her happy. You want her to sincerely apologize and admit that she's a walking car wreck. In our minds we think by blaming them it makes them see the light.

But unfortunately their character is ingrained and hard wired into who they are. They are incapable of amends. Amends requires insight and a a stunted child mind will always lack the capacity to make wrong things right.

In my opinion I say let your heart break and know that you'll survive this.

Our ex's are mentally ill, some cormorbid with NPD. My exbf was a narcissist with borderline traits and a misogynist to boot. I will never truly understand what went through his sick mind but I now accept that being bullied, controlled, and financially abused is not happiness. I also get that I was trying to fix what was broken with my parents through him so that he'd be indebted to me forever and never abandon me. He was my mom and dad all over again.

Perfidy. Focus on your freedom. Your happiness. Explore your Family of Origin Issues. Get to the root of why you stayed with your ex and you'll be on your way to feeling better.

Spell

[Perfidy]

Thank you spell. I guess I needed to hear that. It stinks but you're right.

[ScotisGone74]

I can't speak for others, but in my case Perfidy I was running myself ragged, literally just physically worn down, and when the R/S ended with a sudden bang, it was as if after I got some rest I didn't know what to do with myself and all this energy that I had been expending on someone else... . was now My own and I didn't know what to do with all of it.  All I can say is go back to the things that you once found Joy and Personal Pleasure in doing before you got so tangled up in BPD world, there is something that you truly enjoy doing, start by getting back into it.  It will help with some of the anxiety and make better use of your time.  Go see a physican if you think you really need to for a prescription for something anti anxiety or depression,  Its not a long term fix, but something to help for the time being.

[iluminati]

This is just really an observation that I have made. It's been in the back of my mind for quite a while. Ok, I was the sane one. She was the not so sane one. I am ultra responsible in all of my affairs. I do what I'm supposed to do and when I'm supposed to do it. Comparatively she is a derelict where it comes to any type of personal responsibility. At least that's the way she was when we were together. She runs roughshod through my life. I know, I know... . I let her. Sorta. She raises all billy hell with me. Always like a spoiled kid not getting their way. Then when we split up she actually left me and had the nerve to say that it was more bad than good when she brought 99.9999999% of the bad into our so called relationship. Seriously? Can't she see that? For heavens sake she MUST know that! Right?

You have to understand that during their formative years, they were around people who abused, neglected and mistreated them, yet somehow blamed them as children for their predicament.  This manipulative understand that is insane to us is Tuesday to them.  In their world, of course people make you do mean things.  After all, that's how they somehow convinced their pillar of the community Uncle to "have an affair" with them when they were 10, right?  

You have to accept that your SO was mentally ill, period.  Until and unless they get help, that is what they will be.

[Perfidy]

Illuminati,scot, thank you both for posting responses. I get so frustrated and I know why but I still keep doing it! Trying to rationalize the irrational. Trying to approach this dysfunction with logic and reasoning. So hard to just forget and erase my memories of it.

[mitchell16]

When he physically assaulted me he blamed ME. Said it was my fault because I made him possessive and jealous.

That is bad but I can relate. Once when mine ws going completely crazy, screaming, completley out of control. i was talking in a calm voice and asked her why she had to scream and hsout. she said she was mad and I said can you not control your anger to talk calm and rational. She said it was her fault for screaming but it was poeple like me that cause her to scream. But what is funny she could never tell her what I did to cause it.

[Perfidy]

Mitchell I could write volumes here about our dysfunction. How she assaulted me for years. Spit on me punched me slapped me threw stuff at me abuse abuse abuse. I finally stood up for myself after years of taking her abuse. See if you can guess what her reaction to that was. And yes! I realize I made the decision by myself for my own messed up reason to let her stay. I've already done the math! Guess what her reaction to me standing up for myself was... .

[mitchell16]

well if it was like mine, it became your fault for defending yourself or you was a terrible monster that treated her bad. I once told mine everything i felt like she did to me that was wrong, telling lies, flirting with men in front of me, asking me to go special places and at last minute telling me i did something wrong and then telling me I couldnt go and she would go with out me, you name it. When I told her that and I told her i had enough, not to call me anymore I was through. She said I treated her horrible and talked to her disrespectful and I degraded her. LOL she even added all her friends agreed with her that I did talk to her like. This happened on the phone and as far as I know nobody was present but even if they were i said all that in a calm, slighly raised voice. No name calling, screaming.

[Perfidy]

Close... She turned it back around on me. I became the abuser. i don't think so. She abused everything. Drugs,alcohol,sex,money,people. Abuse is her way of life. When confronted with any resistance to the abuse the result is never pretty.

[ucmeicu2]

Then when we split up she actually left me and had the nerve to say that it was more bad than good when she brought 99.9999999% of the bad into our so called relationship. Seriously? Can't she see that? For heavens sake she MUST know that! Right?

If she "knew that" she wouldn't be mentally ill. BPD is a character and attachment disorder. Their emotional wiring leaves them severely deficient and stunted in the ability to have insight into their own behavior.  Can a three year old reflect on their actions? This is why they are stuck in a cycle of rinse, wash and repeat.

of course this is just my opinion, and i may be wrong, but based on my experience/reading/and gut instinct i feel that yes, in some ways they are like a 3 yr old, but they are not on that level in all regards. 

i mean, YES pwBPD do/say some crazy/infuriating/hurtful things *but* i think you're underestimating their awareness.  they often are aware (and feel shameful) that their thoughts/actions are inappropriate but they don't have the coping skills/soothing skills/etc to change ~ as children they were not taught those things.  they are often in a lot of pain themselves, both from their own core trauma and from the way they're living/treating people/themselves. 

i don't believe they live in a vacuum of unawareness.  however, being aware of a problem is only part of the solution.  it's one thing to be aware, and quite another to have the inner/outer resources to act on that awareness.  and then, too, the quality of results from the 'acting' depend a lot on the quality of the care and the determination of the pwBPD to recover.  many pieces to the puzzle.

they're often caught in a cycle of shame and despair.  they feel bad abt something they did, so they abuse in some way (cheating/self-harming/drugs, alcohol, etc some sort of inner or outer expression of anger/shame) then they feel shame abt that and need to escape from that.  vicious cycle.

so perfidy, your ex may have known she was the cause of most of the problems, but may have been in some denial to herself, and was unable to admit her wrongdoing to you.  with 256 possible clinical presentations of BPD, it's hard to say.

BPD used to be such a stigma, thought to be untreatable, often used as a 'wastebasket' dx.  but there is hope, for them and for us!  DBT teaches much needed skills and has been proven (i want to say cat scans or MRI imaging?) to actually rewire their brain to a more functional/normal state.  it mostly takes willingness.

and PS, as a Non, i clearly needed/need better coping skills/soothing skills/etc, too, right?  otherwise i wouldn't be here, and in such pain?  as my mother would say, "isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!"... .     i have to laugh, people, at the irony of it all... . at the similarities.

icu2

[Octoberfest]

OUTSTANDING post Spell

Then when we split up she actually left me and had the nerve to say that it was more bad than good when she brought 99.9999999% of the bad into our so called relationship. Seriously? Can't she see that? For heavens sake she MUST know that! Right?

If she "knew that" she wouldn't be mentally ill. BPD is a character and attachment disorder. Their emotional wiring leaves them severely deficient and stunted in the ability to have insight into their own behavior.  Can a three year old reflect on their actions? This is why they are stuck in a cycle of rinse, wash and repeat.

of course this is just my opinion, and i may be wrong, but based on my experience/reading/and gut instinct i feel that yes, in some ways they are like a 3 yr old, but they are not on that level in all regards. 

i mean, YES pwBPD do/say some crazy/infuriating/hurtful things *but* i think you're underestimating their awareness.  they often are aware (and feel shameful) that their thoughts/actions are inappropriate but they don't have the coping skills/soothing skills/etc to change ~ as children they were not taught those things.  they are often in a lot of pain themselves, both from their own core trauma and from the way they're living/treating people/themselves. 

i don't believe they live in a vacuum of unawareness.  however, being aware of a problem is only part of the solution.  it's one thing to be aware, and quite another to have the inner/outer resources to act on that awareness.  and then, too, the quality of results from the 'acting' depend a lot on the quality of the care and the determination of the pwBPD to recover.  many pieces to the puzzle.

they're often caught in a cycle of shame and despair.  they feel bad abt something they did, so they abuse in some way (cheating/self-harming/drugs, alcohol, etc some sort of inner or outer expression of anger/shame) then they feel shame aboutthat and need to escape from that.  vicious cycle.

so perfidy, your ex may have known she was the cause of most of the problems, but may have been in some denial to herself, and was unable to admit her wrongdoing to you.  with 256 possible clinical presentations of BPD, it's hard to say.

BPD used to be such a stigma, thought to be untreatable, often used as a 'wastebasket' dx.  but there is hope, for them and for us!  DBT teaches much needed skills and has been proven (i want to say cat scans or MRI imaging?) to actually rewire their brain to a more functional/normal state.  it mostly takes willingness.

and PS, as a Non, i clearly needed/need better coping skills/soothing skills/etc, too, right?  otherwise i wouldn't be here, and in such pain?  as my mother would say, "isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!"... .     i have to laugh, people, at the irony of it all... . at the similarities.

icu2

Another good post with good points.

It is very much a destructive cycle... .my BPDex's history (that I know about even, lord knows what else she has in her past) is UGLY.  Filled with WAY too many guys for being 22, relationships with REALLY undesirable types, a failed marriage at 19, a child she purposefully became pregnant with and then aborted, and an unstable family.  She has A LOT to run from... .I have many times said that she has all the demons in hell chasing her. So she runs.  And how she knows how to run is to cling onto new guys who can provide temporary relief from her shame... .but soon enough reality of the situation sets in, and be it shame, feelings of unworthiness, whatever, she sabotages it and starts dating other people concurrently.

My BPDex has been in DBT for over a year.  She is up to the same things.  I am in college now, and an analogy I have often used is that "there is a difference between showing up for class and actively engaging and learning something".  She has been showing up, but the real drive isnt here.  She is as stuck in her old patterns as ever.

It is very sad.  I guess I am thankful it isn't me.  Whatever hell I have been through is temporary.  Hers will be all but eternal.

[Perfidy]

I have been doing the CBT workbook. I still think about the R/S way more than I like. The depression has been lighter. Haven't cried in many days now. A great improvement. Came to learn and it's paying off.

[Learning_curve74]

I have been doing the CBT workbook. I still think about the R/S way more than I like. The depression has been lighter. Haven't cried in many days now. A great improvement. Came to learn and it's paying off.

Good job, Perfidy. Hope you see continued improvement! 

[Perfidy]

Still struggling with memory. One step up two steps back. It really sucks. I loved that girl.

[ScotisGone74]

That is pretty much how recovery takes place from these type things.  There is no steep curve of improvement you can see on a chart, rather it is more like a couple of good days where we start to experience life on our terms and feel good about who we are, what we have to offer, and all the things we want to do... .then a bad day or maybe a few of them, where we reminisce over our past relationship, all the nice/sweet things that our exBPD may have done for us, how much they bent over backwards idealizing us in the beginning.   I think thats normal to feel when trying to get on a healthy path.  There's not a lot of people out there with a PhD in Borderline relationships, so it limits our ability to discuss this with others that really know what the heck we are talking about or understand the predicament we are in.  Unlike our exBPD SO's we keep our feelings and love for others with us for a lengthy amount of time/sometimes always, its not something we can throw away into the trash like a used kleenex.   Be happy you have that to give someone else that can return it to you in a healthy way not based on a Need of theirs'.   

[Perfidy]

It's one step up and two steps back. I really loved that girl.

[ucmeicu2]

I have been doing the CBT workbook. I still think about the R/S way more than I like. The depression has been lighter. Haven't cried in many days now. A great improvement. Came to learn and it's paying off.

hey perfidy glad to hear you're doing it and it's helping.   it encouraged me to actually start it myself (after having the tab opened for abt 2 wks and procrastinating, hehe).

here's the link in case anybody else is interested ~ highly recommended b/c i read abt 75% of us at BPDfam are depressed.  and cbt is good for helping get rid of depression.

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a111.htm

icu2