Was my enabling dad actually helping me?

[Sitara]

My dad is a major enabler to my uBPD mom, however, lately I've been wondering if he tried to give me the tools I needed to do what he wasn't able to do for himself.  He gave me some good advice that I think is part of what has helped me work towards being healthy, and I wonder if he was doing that intentionally or subconsciously, or if he really didn't realize his advice pertained to my family.  (The advice was generally given for work related situations.)

It takes both people

He would tell me that in a conflict, both people have to be working towards a solution.  Both people have to be willing to make things work.

Figure out the common denominator

He would tell me, if the common denominator is you, you're probably the problem.  For example, if you're having a problem with person A, person B, and person C, you need to look at yourself and see if you're actually the problem instead of them.  Or conversely, if several people have a problem with person A, then it's likely that person A is the issue.  (Side note, my mom hated when my dad would say this, often because she was the common denominator.)

Know when to leave

The whole advice in this one was that you should first try to find a solution, but if you've done everything you can think of to fix it, you need to know when to walk away.

It should tell me something that I always held my dad's advice with more regard than my mom's - I probably realized early at a subconscious level that my mom's interpersonal actions were not ones to mimic.  But I find myself wondering if my dad was trying to help me do what he couldn't do himself.  I'm curious of other's thoughts about this or if anyone experienced something like this themselves.

[Botswana Agate]

That's really thought-provoking.  My enDad was of no help.  All he did was rug-sweep.  Still is very good at it.   :'(

[Sitara]

Sorry to hear your dad wasn't much help.  When faced with issues revolving around my mom, mine wasn't much help either.  His typical advice was "don't get in the middle of a fight between her and someone else," or "you know how your mother is."  He will flip-flop and back her up when she's blatantly lying.  For some reason, he held different standards for her than he did everyone else. 

[musicfan42]

Yes... I know what you mean Sitara. I've gotten good advice from enablers (not just one!) In theory, they seem to be able to know what to do but then they can't seem to apply this advice to their own lives.

[coraliesolange]

Oh geez.  Maybe he did somehow realize he had a problem, maybe he was really trying to give you something to work with, but come on!  I figured out the medium chill thing intuitively at about 10 and she figured out that she could get a rise out of me if she started hitting, verbally abusing or otherwise my younger siblings.  This led to a lot of anger on my part and the best advice I've ever gotten from my dad has been to be nice to my mother.  At least your dad's advice makes sense

[karma_gal]

Yes... I know what you mean Sitara. I've gotten good advice from enablers (not just one!) In theory, they seem to be able to know what to do but then they can't seem to apply this advice to their own lives.

This is soo me!  I have the most effed up life of my friends circle, yet I'm the one they always call for advice.  Funny, I can give it to them -- and they take it and it works out, so must be good advice -- and even give it to myself sometimes, but so far I'm the only one not listening and/or doing something with it.  I'm going to revisit the Codependent No More book, I think! 

My dad was very much like Botswana Agate's:  Champion rug-sweeper and excuse-maker.  For years, I heard, "You know how she is.  She's just a miserable (add word here.  Just please don't make her mad because I have to live with her."  My poor dad couldn't stand up for himself, let alone his kids, if his life depended on it.  I used to feel sorry for him because once I saw the behaviors of my mom for what they were, I couldn't imagine anyone being stuck with her.  But the more I thought about it, I realized that my dad's way of handling things did nothing but make me lose any respect for him, because if he wasn't going to protect himself, he could have at least protected us kids.  It takes a pretty spineless person I think to sit back while your crazy wife abuses your children and you watch on, afraid to do anything to further enrage her.

Sitara, I don't know your whole story so I don't want to use the term "lucky" -- because often that's not a word many of us from these families can use -- but you are lucky in a sense that he was insightful enough to not only realize those things himself but to share them with you.  They probably are things he learned the hard way and wanted to spare you the pain of the lesson of learning them yourself.  If nothing else, he blessed you abundantly with introspection and insight! 

[StarStruck]

How I would describe what you've said of your dad is wise, committed and not wanting to loose the family he loves or 'to give up on the children'. (Obviously goes no way to describe how awful it was for you when he'd jump sides).

The same I can say for my dad on both counts of marriage and unfortunately he's still with my step Mom. He's a loving man I don't know what else to say bout my situ there apart from, frustrating.

My dad didn't witness Mom at her worst and I never told him about her. I was in a different world when I was with him, I forgot about her x

[delaney]

Maybe he was. It's an interesting thought, I'm sure. I guess people just feel trapped in their marriages. This is off topic because I don't think the man involved has BPD but my friend stays with a man who is emotionally abusive and has shown her for their entire marriage that he will prioritize his parents over her in every single situation. I'd never stay with him but she does because it's financially safe. Who knows what my father's motivation for staying with my mother was. I think he may have been in love with her, for all her flaws. But whenever we were in conflict, the only thing I heard from him is, "Your mother works so hard for this family." But every year that passed, that became less true. And it was harder and harder to accept that that somehow made it ok for her to be the way she was.

[Sitara]

I can only speculate as to why my dad stays, but I think a large portion of it is my parents are "old fashioned" meaning they don't really believe in divorce.  However I do know my mom's threatened it several times to him, but to me she goes waif, crying that she'd have to go on welfare if they got a divorce and she'd have to start all over and she doesn't want to get a job after being a housewife for the last 30+ years.  I really have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. 

If I ever tried to specifically complain to my dad about my mom's behaviors, he'd always come back with, "Well, you know how your mom is," like it's some sort of excuse for her behavior.  Mixed messages there.

[delaney]

I see people using the terms waif and witch and one or two others. Can someone point me toward an explanation of what these mean? I assume these are types of behaviors or subtypes of BPD?

[Sitara]

"Borderline Personality Disorder can manifest itself in mutliple ways. In her book, Understanding The Borderline Mother, Dr. Christine Lawson describes four role types which BPD is exemplified by:

~the Waif,

~the Hermit,

~the Queen, and

~the Witch.

The Queen is controlling, the Witch is sadistic, the Hermit is fearful, and the Waif is helpless.  Each requires a different approach. Don't let the Queen get the upper hand; be wary even of accepting gifts because it engenders expectations. Don't internalize the Hermit's fears or become limited by them. Don't allow yourself to be alone with the Witch; maintain distance for your own emotional and physical safety. And with the Waif, don't get pulled into her crises and sense of victimization; "pay attention to your own tendencies to want to rescue her, which just feeds the dynamic."

The whole thread is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

[Obibens]

I have a hard question for this thread... .

Would it have made it easier or harder or just different if your enabling dad had left.  Would it haven given you more validation that there was something serious wrong with the relationship?  Does the fact that he's still with her make you wonder if maybe that's just normal.  My son said something the other day to me that makes me wonder if I'm doing more harm than good right now.  He said "You are just two stubborn people dealing with normal marriage stuff".  I don't want my kids to grow up thinking this is 'normal' marriage stuff.

[delaney]

"Borderline Personality Disorder can manifest itself in mutliple ways. In her book, Understanding The Borderline Mother, Dr. Christine Lawson describes four role types which BPD is exemplified by:

~the Waif,

~the Hermit,

~the Queen, and

~the Witch.

The Queen is controlling, the Witch is sadistic, the Hermit is fearful, and the Waif is helpless.  Each requires a different approach. Don't let the Queen get the upper hand; be wary even of accepting gifts because it engenders expectations. Don't internalize the Hermit's fears or become limited by them. Don't allow yourself to be alone with the Witch; maintain distance for your own emotional and physical safety. And with the Waif, don't get pulled into her crises and sense of victimization; "pay attention to your own tendencies to want to rescue her, which just feeds the dynamic."

The whole thread is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

Thank you!

[Sitara]

Would it have made it easier or harder or just different if your enabling dad had left.  Would it haven given you more validation that there was something serious wrong with the relationship?

Depends on the age I would have been when he left.  If he left when I was really young, my mom would have alienated me from my dad since I was in a very enmeshed relationship.  If I had been an older teen, I probably would have realized that she was wrong about my dad as I realized that she was wrong to complain about what a bad husband he was.  If he left when I was an adult, it would have been validation that I wasn't crazy and that there was something wrong with mom and I wouldn't be all alone as my entire family has sided with my mom.  However, all this is based off of my dad being the exact same person he is except for leaving my mom and that is in no way realistic.  To leave my mom, he would have to have been a completely different person than he is, and that would have changed so many things about my life that I can't even begin to say how I would have been affected.

To help you understand, a little background about my dad.  I get the impression that his mother was disordered, possibly even having BPD herself, so he married his mother.  His abundant successes in life have never been enough for the people in his life, so I'd imagine having a "successful marriage" is something he can use to prove to himself that he is not the failure his mom/his wife tell him he is.  He believes (or maybe my mom has convinced him to believe) that divorce is not an option.  To get one would go against the very core of his being and beliefs. 

Does the fact that he's still with her make you wonder if maybe that's just normal.

No. It's not normal for a mother to tell you about her sex life (or lack thereof) with your father.  It's not normal for a mother to complain to her child about all the ways she feels her husband has failed as both a husband and a father.  It's not normal to watch as your father gets emasculated on a daily basis.  To be fair, although I always felt that things weren't quite right, it took me until I was almost 30 before I could confidently say it's not right.  My mom tried very hard to convince us that it was normal.  My sister believes it and repeated it.  I went against it.

He said "You are just two stubborn people dealing with normal marriage stuff".  I don't want my kids to grow up thinking this is 'normal' marriage stuff.

I don't necessarily think you have to leave to let your kids know that it's not normal marriage stuff.  I looked back at some of your posts and your son must be one of the ones in therapy?  Are you in therapy yourself?  Could you do a couple's therapy session with your son to help explain that some of the things your mom does isn't healthy?  Or compare to your oldest who's been diagnosed?

It has to be hard to be in your situation, but you're trying.  I wish my dad would take his head out of the sand.

[Obibens]

He said "You are just two stubborn people dealing with normal marriage stuff".  I don't want my kids to grow up thinking this is 'normal' marriage stuff.

I don't necessarily think you have to leave to let your kids know that it's not normal marriage stuff.  I looked back at some of your posts and your son must be one of the ones in therapy?  Are you in therapy yourself?  Could you do a couple's therapy session with your son to help explain that some of the things your mom does isn't healthy?  Or compare to your oldest who's been diagnosed?

It has to be hard to be in your situation, but you're trying.  I wish my dad would take his head out of the sand.

Thank you for your thoughtful insight.  It helps me gain a bit of perspective from the 'kids' side of it.  To answer your question, bascially the entire family is in therapy except for her (ironic, isn't it).   When my youngest first went to therapy (she was 12 at the time), her therapist was basically telling her she was likely overreacting and just being to sensitive.  This wasn't surprising because it's so hard for me to describe the things she says and does in such a covert way.  But then, about 4 months later, my son (now 17) started seeing the same therapist as my youngest.  Within two sessions the therapist outlook changed, she knew something was up.  My kids all know that 'something' is wrong with their mom's behaviour, and their mom and dad's marriage. 

So I do know now that I'm glad I stayed long enough and did enough work on my own to help them see that now, instead of much later in life.

Again, thanks for your insight!