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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Were They Always Entertaining Options?  (Read 480 times)
UmbrellaBoy
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« on: October 13, 2013, 05:32:30 PM »

My BPD ex dumped me and hasn't been in contact 9 weeks now (though last time this happened we were NC for 12 weeks... .)

One thing I'm thinking back over today is how jealous I eventually got (though I rarely showed it for fear of scaring him off) after all the jerking around.

Besides the fact that the whole thing was always a love triangle with his boyfriend (later, we switched places and he became the ex)... .it also always felt like there were other things going on. Not overt involvement with a third person, but almost like there were flirtations or "friendships-with-potential" he was cultivating that probably didn't become anything, but which, even just in how he talked about them and managed information about those relationships, felt like there were not proper boundaries being maintained and like they were all, thus, potential threats, like they were options he was keeping open, at least implicitly.

Like, I was terrified that after he broke up with me, it was because he had found a NEW toy finally besides me and the ex, someone he kept secret but was planning to get involved with once I was gone. As it stands, signs now indicate that, really, he just got back involved with the ex again, which is less threatening to me because I got used to the ex's presence as a third-wheel for years.

And yet I look back over the course of things and wonder what else was going on. Though based on things he said, I'm pretty sure the only people he slept with over the past three years were me and the ex... .he kept things involving the ex rather secret from me, and also seemed to keep other social interactions with friends rather secret, like he was trying to distance or compartmentalize. This alone made it feel like he was trying to hide things, even if he wasn't.

There were at least 3 or 4 gay "friends" of his that I perceived some sort of romantic tension with in his life. There was a guy he was clearly flirting with at a New Years party, right in front of me, though he denied any sexual attraction (and I'll believe him, inasmuch as he doesn't seem to understand his own feelings, and I could see him misinterpreting clear infatuation for something else; ie, not being aware of his own crush). There was this guy he met whom would always leave little winks and coy comments on his facebook wall. There was this guy he is friends with at grad school whose relationship with his own boyfriend was falling apart and who seemed to text my guy an unusually frequent amount, at least during that first semester. And there was this other guy whom my guy seemed "intrigued" with and whom he seemed to invest a lot of social energy in, only to have that guy cut him off for, basically, feeling like he was strung along.

Of course, except in the first case, it could have just been that these guys were interested in him, but he wasn't interested in them in "that way." Still, especially with the fourth guy, it feels like my guy may have been toying with the boundaries inappropriately (spending time alone drinking wine, reading poetry by the fire "as friends," which is how it started with both me and the ex; he seems to like dancing the line of romantic-level intimacy yet without the official commitment). This in spite of having two other guys on his plate already (me and the ex)!

Further, sometimes there'd be weird one-time little mentions that would imply maybe he was talking to guys online too. Like he made a recording of his voice reading one of his poems earlier in the year, and the only context I could imagine doing that in would be if I was interested in someone online and they wanted to get a sense of what my voice was like. Later he indeed said it was for a "friend" his online who wanted to hear his voice (though that friend may have lived in another country and so not really been a "realistic" option). Another time, on our last visit right before the official break-up (which we both already knew was coming), he mentioned "this guy I went out with at Pride." And though I think (I hope) that "went out with" just meant he was in the group that went out as friends to party, I couldn't entirely tell if maybe there was some non-exclusive casual dating already going on or implied.

What are other people's experiences of jealous with their BPD ex? Did any of them seem to keep a lot of options open "as friends [for now]" or toy with the boundaries or seem to hide social interactions and keep relational dynamics ambiguous like that?
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fiddlestix
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 05:50:00 PM »

When my ex's BPD really kicked in hard (it seems to ebb and flow throughout life) I am convinced she was always scheming.  She seemed to have an anxious restlessness that indicated planning and a readiness to run off (which she did a lot).  Bpd people like to have backup options.  Since they do not trust they are probably convinced they need a backup so they never have to be alone or bored.  Yep, they are always peering over the fence to see where they might run. 

Fiddlestix
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HarmKrakow
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 05:53:44 PM »

When my ex's BPD really kicked in hard (it seems to ebb and flow throughout life) I am convinced she was always scheming.  She seemed to have an anxious restlessness that indicated planning and a readiness to run off (which she did a lot).  Bpd people like to have backup options.  Since they do not trust they are probably convinced they need a backup so they never have to be alone or bored.  Yep, they are always peering over the fence to see where they might run. 

Fiddlestix

If i have learned one thing of my BPD debacle with my ex is that it's always good to have plan B, C, D, etc. ready and that a fully 100% focus on a 'dumb' dream called love is ludacriss and silly.
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DragoN
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2013, 06:43:44 PM »

Excerpt
If i have learned one thing of my BPD debacle with my ex is that it's always good to have plan B, C, D, etc. ready and that a fully 100% focus on a 'dumb' dream called love is ludacriss and silly.

That was necessary for escape plans and key locations, over night bags for at the office when my SO raged and went wild.

As far as "love" he had many others along the way while I ran from the raging guilt of his actions.

Love isn't dumb, but a distant memory.
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HarmKrakow
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 06:53:59 PM »

Excerpt
If i have learned one thing of my BPD debacle with my ex is that it's always good to have plan B, C, D, etc. ready and that a fully 100% focus on a 'dumb' dream called love is ludacriss and silly.

That was necessary for escape plans and key locations, over night bags for at the office when my SO raged and went wild.

As far as "love" he had many others along the way while I ran from the raging guilt of his actions.

Love isn't dumb, but a distant memory.

Oeh seems i can agree with you on something Smiling (click to insert in post)
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wrigley52

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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2013, 07:52:11 PM »

Found pics on my computer last night that looked like he was either on a dating web site or he was sending pics to someone a year ago... .I found another women back in June broke up in July and they are still together but he will cheat on her too... .hes never happy

Wrigley 52
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Oliolioxenfree
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2013, 09:23:00 PM »



Well myBPDex, was always keeping a harem of women as "friends", women who blatantly stroked his fragile ego.  He even kept male friends around who were stroking his ego.  Additionally his ex girlfriend was always lurking and texting him.   He was also on multiple dating websites that I found out about (he said they were old accounts). I think its less about entertaining options and more about finding a way to get the ego stroke and attention from anyone they can because they are so insecure.   

In the end I was overlapped, and discarded... .The only way hed leave me alone finally So it was a blessing in disguise.

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Scout99
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 09:57:21 PM »

This is a topic that comes up quite often and many partners of pw BPD tend to feel like we are sort of exchangeable and that our BPD loved ones or ex loved ones are always sort of "planning" something or so... .I have been there too!

But usually the behavior is a little bit more complex than that... .If we turn the tables and look at it from the perspective of the pw BPD and how the disorder affects them. We all know that fear of abandonment is one of the major core beliefs that builds this disorder. And if you are a person, that like most pw this diagnose, have a somewhat wounded r/s to one or both parents or to some other important people from your past, and that experience has rendered you to believe of yourself that you will always, always be abandoned and that no one really can love you, which is also what you fear the most - then what would you do?

Either you would start to feel life is useless and perhaps suicidal thoughts will begin to emerge, or you will try to run away from or escape this horrible fear and try to prevent it from happening with everything you got... .And how will that then make you act and behave?

The options open usually are either to be clingy or to become fearful of getting too attached to anyone and instead try to build up a network of different people so you sort of can make sure never to have to be alone... .Or at least try to avoid being alone for as long as you can before the "inevitable abandonment" will catch you... .Maybe you even try to do both... .

What I am trying to show here is that the motivational factor behind a pw BPD's actions are hardly ever calculated to be manipulative or malicious and pointed at their partners, even though it may feel like it at times when you are the partner... .  Instead they always always operate from a position of intense fear and a distorted knowledge of the potential of a healthy relationship. Most of them have never seen one in their lives, so they have nothing to model a healthy relationship from. And most pw BPD at a deep level don't really believe in a stable and secure relationship, since their experience throughout life tells them the opposite is true, which paradoxically depends on their own disordered behaviors due to their disordered ideas and beliefs about life and relationships... .Like most of us, they hope for and search for that one person who will make everything good for them in their life... .But as all people who have been through some tough rides in life that has forced them to mature knows - we just cannot build our own happiness through anybody else... .We need to find it in ourselves. And it is not until we reach that point that we can build solid and lasting relationships with anyone... .

Best Wishes

Scout99
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Octoberfest
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 10:13:38 PM »

I will echo what Scout said.  By and large, of all the behaviors that are common to pwBPD, even those that seem to have NO other explanation than to exist to PURPOSEFULLY hurt the partner/Non, a pwBPD does not do the things they do with malicious intent.  To think that they do implies they have an fully functioning awareness and capability to recognize right from wrong in terms of emotions and interpersonal relationships.  That simply is not true.  My BPDex was dating at LEAST one, and at some points two, other people the entire time we dated over the span of 9 months.  For the most part these people were in different cities- heard but not all that often seen.  It was a safety net for her, something to fall back on when I inevitably left her.  The tragedy of course is that I only left her because of the cheating and lying that she did.  I could handle everything else she threw at me- but the cheating and the lying are what ended the relationship, and all of it done to "protect" her... .Doom and unhappiness for my BPDex is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  In an attempt to find the security and love that she so craves, she does things that sabotage the chance of realizing any of it.  Terribly sad.
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 10:59:26 PM »

My BPD ex dumped me and hasn't been in contact 9 weeks now (though last time this happened we were NC for 12 weeks... .)

One thing I'm thinking back over today is how jealous I eventually got (though I rarely showed it for fear of scaring him off) after all the jerking around.

Besides the fact that the whole thing was always a love triangle with his boyfriend (later, we switched places and he became the ex)... .it also always felt like there were other things going on. Not overt involvement with a third person, but almost like there were flirtations or "friendships-with-potential" he was cultivating that probably didn't become anything, but which, even just in how he talked about them and managed information about those relationships, felt like there were not proper boundaries being maintained and like they were all, thus, potential threats, like they were options he was keeping open, at least implicitly.

Like, I was terrified that after he broke up with me, it was because he had found a NEW toy finally besides me and the ex, someone he kept secret but was planning to get involved with once I was gone. As it stands, signs now indicate that, really, he just got back involved with the ex again, which is less threatening to me because I got used to the ex's presence as a third-wheel for years.

And yet I look back over the course of things and wonder what else was going on. Though based on things he said, I'm pretty sure the only people he slept with over the past three years were me and the ex... .he kept things involving the ex rather secret from me, and also seemed to keep other social interactions with friends rather secret, like he was trying to distance or compartmentalize. This alone made it feel like he was trying to hide things, even if he wasn't.

There were at least 3 or 4 gay "friends" of his that I perceived some sort of romantic tension with in his life. There was a guy he was clearly flirting with at a New Years party, right in front of me, though he denied any sexual attraction (and I'll believe him, inasmuch as he doesn't seem to understand his own feelings, and I could see him misinterpreting clear infatuation for something else; ie, not being aware of his own crush). There was this guy he met whom would always leave little winks and coy comments on his facebook wall. There was this guy he is friends with at grad school whose relationship with his own boyfriend was falling apart and who seemed to text my guy an unusually frequent amount, at least during that first semester. And there was this other guy whom my guy seemed "intrigued" with and whom he seemed to invest a lot of social energy in, only to have that guy cut him off for, basically, feeling like he was strung along.

Of course, except in the first case, it could have just been that these guys were interested in him, but he wasn't interested in them in "that way." Still, especially with the fourth guy, it feels like my guy may have been toying with the boundaries inappropriately (spending time alone drinking wine, reading poetry by the fire "as friends," which is how it started with both me and the ex; he seems to like dancing the line of romantic-level intimacy yet without the official commitment). This in spite of having two other guys on his plate already (me and the ex)!

Further, sometimes there'd be weird one-time little mentions that would imply maybe he was talking to guys online too. Like he made a recording of his voice reading one of his poems earlier in the year, and the only context I could imagine doing that in would be if I was interested in someone online and they wanted to get a sense of what my voice was like. Later he indeed said it was for a "friend" his online who wanted to hear his voice (though that friend may have lived in another country and so not really been a "realistic" option). Another time, on our last visit right before the official break-up (which we both already knew was coming), he mentioned "this guy I went out with at Pride." And though I think (I hope) that "went out with" just meant he was in the group that went out as friends to party, I couldn't entirely tell if maybe there was some non-exclusive casual dating already going on or implied.

What are other people's experiences of jealous with their BPD ex? Did any of them seem to keep a lot of options open "as friends [for now]" or toy with the boundaries or seem to hide social interactions and keep relational dynamics ambiguous like that?

In bold.

My exUBPDgf... .

Is an extremely attractive dark skinned latina... .

Who had a throng... .

Of men... .

Mostly latino's... .

Constantly hovering around her.

They were ever present... .

On her facebook/instagram... .

And here comes me... .

An Italian/Greek... .

Soft spoken... .

Guy... .

And you can imagine... .

The reception... .

I received... .

When it was known... .

In round 1... .

That she was my girlfriend.

Those hovering guys... .

Mostly her ethnicity... .

(I have to mention that because it added to the undermining)... .

Were constantly... .

At the borders... .

Of my relationship with her.

Now... .

I do not know if she cheated in me... .

In both rounds.

But those guys... .

Were always... .

Present.

Her erratic behavior... .

And the subsequent devaluation... .

Was immediately... .

Sniffed out... .

By those f¥cking guy "friends"... .

Yes... .

She would tell me... .

"I have a lot of guy friends... .

And they all want me... .

But i dont view them like that... ."

Well... .

How was i to really know that... .?

Considering the devaluation... .

And everything that stems from that... .

Silent treatment... .

Ignoring me... .

And speaking to them... .

Of course... .

I would get jealous... .

And insecure... .

And of course... .

Those f¥cking guy friends... .

Were always around.

It was the same... .

If not worse... .

In round 2.

There were more of them.

And they were always... .

At the borders.

I get so angry remembering that.

I honestly... .

Do not know if she cheated on me.

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leftbehind
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 11:35:28 PM »

My exBPDbf was a huge flirt, both with strangers and with women friends, aquaintances, and even clients.  He also kept in touch with ex's who would lurk, message him, etc.  At the beginning I was upfront about my concerns in a very calm manner, talking about boundaries etc.  In retrospect all that did was clue him in to the fact that he needed to hide ___ better. 

Yeah, I think they're always keeping their options open, for fear of abandonment, out of boredom (my ex was also ADHD), and if they're narcissistic for the ego stroke as well.  It definitely was a huge stress to me.  He cheated on his two previous partners. He lied about this and made it sound like he had ended both relationships before being with anyone new - I later found out that was untrue in both cases.  A pattern had been established.  Habits are hard to break, especially when a disordered mind thinks those habits will protect them from being abandoned.

Still not letting him off the hook, though.  I don't believe mental illness excuses everything.  And in retrospect, my jealousy was getting triggered for sane reasons.  My gut was picking up that he wasn't able to back up his words of eternal love with actions and commitment.  It took me a loong time to forgive myself for getting mad at him when he would flirt in front of me.  He would so innocently say he was just being friendly and trying to make someone laugh that I blamed myself so harshly for overreacting.  But in retrospect part of me knew what was up, and didn't like it.

Don't question your instincts, Umbrella boy.  If it looks like deceptive Bullsh**, and smells like deceptive Bullsh**, then it's probably deceptive Bullsh**.
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fiddlestix
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 11:56:26 PM »

Reading these posts on this topic, I am feeling compassion for my ex wife.  Yes, she did act selfishly, immorally, foolishly and dishonestly.  And I know mental illness/disorder can't excuse it all.  But I don't believe, deep down, that she ever planned to hurt me.  She did not sit down and ask herself how she can best hurt me.  No, that would have meant her thinking about me.  She acted the way she did because she was desperate to soothe herself, not hurt me. 

I almost texted her tonight to tell her I understand her and am sorry she is so unhappy and desperate.  But I didn't.  I don't think that would accomplish anything.  But I am feeling sad for her, and that I have been so angry at her.  No Contact is still best. 

Fiddlestix
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Bkelly999

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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 03:24:59 AM »

This is my ex to a "tee". Outwardly very confident with a great  job and highly developed social skills however underneath was an insecure gay male mess with BPD and NPD. This manifested in similar ways to the above. We would go to parties and go our separate ways and after only a short while I would find him chatting someone else up. I would go over and introduce myself and on one occasion the other guy looked at me indignantly and said "and who are you"?. I had clearly interrupted something. When I explained who I was (BPD's partner of 3 years) the look on this guys face was priceless. My exBPD had been leading him on and had forgotten to mention his relationship status.

This hit a crescendo at a wedding my ex BPD went to without me and lied to the other guests plus the bride and groom that the reason I was not there was because we had separated. We actually had a diary conflict and I couldn't go. He played the part of the bachelor around town and started an affair with a particularly unattractive but well to do Man which lasted a few weeks until I found out about it. He admitted and broke down blah blah but couldn't back out of the lies that he told about us already being separated to the rest of the people at the wedding. It got very messy and I kept the relationship going for a while but in the end he was just too volatile and untrustworthy.

I should have known before entering a relationship with him that there were boundary issues. Our first phone call after our first date was him telling me about all the "inappropriate" relationships he'd had including the incestuous one with his cousin (who wanted to date him after they had been sleeping together for months) and a mutual pleasuring session with a straight male friend that went haywire and ended up in a physical fight. The best one of all though was the married couple he knew where I suspected the husband to be gay. I mentioned to this to exBPD and he denied it. Months later I found out that the husband and my exBPD had been lovers and dated for several months and indeed the husband was gay.

To answer the OP's question- yes I do think that they always have someone waiting in the wings for sources of narcissistic supply just in case you're not fulfilling your obligations to them and they can do better.
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laelle
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 03:56:19 AM »

In my own experience, I would have to say YES.  I can not go as far as to say that my ex was cheating on me (physically), but he was always on the look out.

I guess part of it was the boost to his own self esteem by smoozing a female off her feet, and the other is so that when he and I broke up (which was inevitable) he would already have that new person broke in and primed to fill the position.

People with BPD are not the only people who do this.
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Numbers
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 04:59:18 AM »

I'd say that this often found BPD characteristic of having a huge social network and dancing on a thin line between close and too close with opposite sex is quite layered issue.

In part, yes, this is security measure versus abandonment. However, having it is not disordered per se. People come with different levels of social needs and I know few who also have many acquaintances but are not BPD for sure. Actually, I even envy her for that support system. It would be immeasurably easier to get over her if I'd have something similar.

When this network becomes a deal breaker is when it gets used for control.

First, there are comparisons - "look how this guy admires his girl", "look what that other guy does better then you" etc etc. This is BPD failure to recognize that ideal person does not exist and endless supply of carrots to run after.

Second, there is triangulation. More or less subtly, it gets rubbed in your face. My ex went from openly flirting with three of my best friends to much more subtle cues, but at every point in time I was either kept aware that there is some other male somewhere that intrigues her or kept unaware of what is going on behind incessant texting/Facebook.

Finally, don't forget it is also a weapon of validation. "Everyone out of my huge circle of friends believes so-and-so". When in argument, she often used this trick to win through numbers.

Actually, now when I read lines above, I am feeling sorry not for her but for the guy that will come after me. Of course, there is a possibility that she will drop her social schemes for him... .oh wait, what are the odds for that Smiling (click to insert in post)
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PhoenixRising15
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 10:01:31 PM »

While I was having a conversation with my ex saying the only things I required were:

loyalty, honesty, and fidelity.

She wrote, "Everybody leaves" at least 100x covering a piece of paper.

I never stood a chance.

When  I gave her one more chance after she cheated the first time, and she said she wanted time alone, she confessed to "kissing" three other guys (I'm disgusted to think what else may have happened with all the drugs involved.  she probably can't even remember).

When I asked her why, "She said, I don't know... .it was fun at the time and I didn't think you'd really ever take me back anyway".

Then she started talking to other guys online, setting herself up.

I caught her, she freaked and bailed.  Did anything physical happen?

I'll never know. 

She was setting herself up for failure though.

I'm off balance with anger.  It's hard for me to be angry with her though I really am and want to be more.

Especially, after watching her write "everybody leaves" over and over.  That image is haunting.

I can't break her life script for her.  She has to for herself.

When I do get angry and feel hurt, I am trying to depersonalize it (not rationalize or forgive or approve). 

And rather say, wow.  She honest to god believes that no one in the world will ever stay.

a bit off topic, but i don't even really recall ever being idolized.  If it was, it was short.  She was terribly terribly terribly insecure and jealous almost from day 1. 

I'm working at a startup that she did believe in (idealization i guess), but her response was, "you're not going to leave me for one of those skinny models after you make it are you?"

I think she became bulimic after that.  So sad.

I've dated models, heavier girls, girls of all shapes and sizes, and I told her that, but she compared herself to every one and found herself lacking.

A bucket with no bottom that always seemed to tip towards the nearest storm cloud.
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 10:23:18 PM »

While I was having a conversation with my ex saying the only things I required were:

loyalty, honesty, and fidelity.

She wrote, "Everybody leaves" at least 100x covering a piece of paper.

I never stood a chance.

When  I gave her one more chance after she cheated the first time, and she said she wanted time alone, she confessed to "kissing" three other guys (I'm disgusted to think what else may have happened with all the drugs involved.  she probably can't even remember).

When I asked her why, "She said, I don't know... .it was fun at the time and I didn't think you'd really ever take me back anyway".

Then she started talking to other guys online, setting herself up.

I caught her, she freaked and bailed.  :)id anything physical happen?

I'll never know.  

She was setting herself up for failure though.

I'm off balance with anger.  It's hard for me to be angry with her though I really am and want to be more.

Especially, after watching her write "everybody leaves" over and over.  That image is haunting.

I can't break her life script for her.  She has to for herself.

When I do get angry and feel hurt, I am trying to depersonalize it (not rationalize or forgive or approve).  

And rather say, wow.  She honest to god believes that no one in the world will ever stay.

a bit off topic, but i don't even really recall ever being idolized.  If it was, it was short.  She was terribly terribly terribly insecure and jealous almost from day 1.  

I'm working at a startup that she did believe in (idealization i guess), but her response was, "you're not going to leave me for one of those skinny models after you make it are you?"

I think she became bulimic after that.  So sad.

I've dated models, heavier girls, girls of all shapes and sizes, and I told her that, but she compared herself to every one and found herself lacking.

A bucket with no bottom that always seemed to tip towards the nearest storm cloud.

In bold.

Mine had this one image... .

On her twitter account... .

Where she would reveal her real moods... .

(From what she told me)... .

And one of her images she had on that... .

Was a pic... .

Depicting a woman... .

Looking out a car window... .

With the words... .

"Everybody leaves... ."

She left me twice.

I never stood a chance either Question.

Minus the drugs... .

And the cheating(that i know of)... .

We might as well have dated the same woman.
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