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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Dr.Me2
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NC?
« on: November 08, 2013, 10:36:16 AM »

In an effort to keep contact, stop the bleeding and see how she was doing I send her a nice email her to see how she is feeling from her ailments yet to diagnosed. She replied with a quick answer and then the whole paragraph quickly deteriorated into angry attacks and rage calling me names, blaming me for everything and asking not to contact her or the kids again anymore.

If I don't check on her and the kids she gets angry and violent if I do she gets angry and violent.

So confused and frustrated.

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HopefulDad
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 11:55:30 AM »

Take a gentle, but firm stand on the kids.  Beware parental alienation.  FWIW, my BPDw has told me what she says to our young children about our issues and I am *not* happy about it... .lots of blame being sent my way, so I'm struggling to figure out how to mitigate that without doing the same in turn.

As for her, I'd do what she asks: don't talk to her.  Focus on actions, behaviors, not the thoughts behind them.  If she says don't talk (action) to her, then don't.  If later she gets upset because you "didn't care" for her by not talking to her, don't focus on the accusation of "not caring", but rather focus on the action:  "You asked me not to talk to you so I didn't.  Would you prefer that I talk to you again?"
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Dr.Me2
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 06:09:14 PM »

hopefulDad,

I think at this point things have deteriorated to a point I think she is already doing that with my kids. I can feel it in my conversation with them.

I don't know how to stop her as we have NC. It is like she is thinking to cut me out and run away with the kids.

Not sure how far she can take it and how much I can take it any longer
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HopefulDad
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 07:30:58 PM »

At some point both you and I have to decide where to draw a line on parental alienation.  If my wife takes it to the step that yours has, that's where I might go nuclear: Start sharing her insane emails and texts to me with family (both hers and mine) and get them to shame her mercilessly for using the kids to get back at me.  She's highly functioning enough to not paint everyone black, so she'll probably stand down.

I am not going to let my wife sabotage my relationship with my kids out of spite because she can't think straight.
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Dr.Me2
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 01:49:43 AM »

Just a few hours ago, she sent me an email threaten me that if I don't start the divorce proceedings she will start poisoning the kids against me until I breakdown. She is determined to inflict as much pain as possible. I am in pain but I am not sure if it is because my partner is dying (as she became a different person) or part of me is.

I knew if I stayed under such circumstances, the uncontrollable behavior and escalation will reach a level will both regret it. So i left.

It has been already almost 3 woks since I left (temp) the house due to the DV. She asked for NC although she email me to ask for more money.

Right after I went away she set me up for failure, she started to faint, feel numbness, dizzy, etc and turned the tables around blaming me for leaving in the middle of her getting sick and blaming was all my fault.

I was hoping by now she would have returned to baseline or at least heading in that direction so we can have a dialogue, but no, her attacks, blames and accusations have become more pervasive and intense.

The more I don't engage (JADE) or confront her the more dysregulated she becomes. The more I try to support and have empathy the more violent she becomes.

I am seeing a recurrent pattern, her negative projection is triggered by her setting me for failure  (me stepping on a mine field), or by ruminating on the past or blaming me anyway regardless.

I am not sure if she is going crazy or I am or both of us. This is insane!

Certainly posting here and venting out has kept me away from getting worst. Yet, her intensity is becoming unbearable and that is exactly what she wants.

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HopefulDad
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 11:36:06 AM »

Do you or her have family nearby?  If so, are both of you on good terms with them?  You might need to recruit some help.  IMHO, this is getting too much for you to handle.

For the times my wife gets really bad, I pull in her nearby folks and her closest friend.  I don't disclose BPD, but I do share any physical symptoms (like your wife has) to show the urgency of getting help and support.  If they can get her to a state of calm, that's usually when I can re-engage and suggest seeing a doctor, therapist, whatever.
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eyvindr
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 12:01:41 PM »

Really sorry to hear that you're going through this, Dr. Me2.

It's hard enough to get through a break-up with a pwBPD -- let alone a divorce. And, when there are kids involved, well... .in my experience, it connects you with a whole new level of vulnerability.

Your comment on your s2b-ex's cycling is what's prompting me to reply -- but there's so much going on here aside from that... .

Just a few hours ago, she sent me an email threaten me that if I don't start the divorce proceedings she will start poisoning the kids against me until I breakdown. She is determined to inflict as much pain as possible. I am in pain but I am not sure if it is because my partner is dying (as she became a different person) or part of me is.

I knew if I stayed under such circumstances, the uncontrollable behavior and escalation will reach a level will both regret it. So I left.

It has been already almost 3 woks since I left (temp) the house due to the DV. She asked for NC although she email me to ask for more money.

Right after I went away she set me up for failure, she started to faint, feel numbness, dizzy, etc and turned the tables around blaming me for leaving in the middle of her getting sick and blaming was all my fault.

I was hoping by now she would have returned to baseline or at least heading in that direction so we can have a dialogue, but no, her attacks, blames and accusations have become more pervasive and intense.

The more I don't engage (JADE) or confront her the more dysregulated she becomes. The more I try to support and have empathy the more violent she becomes.

I am seeing a recurrent pattern, her negative projection is triggered by her setting me up for failure (me stepping on a mine field), or by ruminating on the past or blaming me anyway regardless.

I am not sure if she is going crazy or I am or both of us. This is insane!

Certainly posting here and venting out has kept me away from getting worst. Yet, her intensity is becoming unbearable and that is exactly what she wants.

Yes, it sounds like she's still getting what she wants. Even if you aren't voluntarily giving it to her, per se. Remember -- even if you don't provide a PDI with some form of "emotional supply," their illnesses are able to make them believe that you are still a source, through disordered thinking.

You left the house to prevent further escalation -- but the escalation has continued. In other words, "you can't leave me to suffer alone -- you are inseparable from this mess!" In fact, in her mind, she is the victim -- you caused everything to happen. To further make this indisputable to her "audiences" -- not only did you leave her, you left her when she was sick -- which would be in keeping with your "character" in her "play" (remember your audition? you are a heartless b*stard, likely prone to abuse, as well, no?).

She demands that you stop communicating with her -- then asks you for money. In other words, "don't talk to me unless I need something." That is an acceptable, rational agreement in her mind.

You do have it figured out, though -- anything you try to do the right way can and most likely will be flipped over and used, by her, as evidence of how much you continue to do wrong. If you don't JADE, you're a cold-hearted beast who ignores her. If you support her, you're a manipulative monster who is feeding off her emotions because you want something (probably sex, or control of the children).

You aren't going crazy, Dr.Me2. You're just being observant, and objective -- you're seeing reality, as it is, with a normal, healthy mind. Unlike your wife, who is seeing reality as she fabricates it to match up to her script. You feel crazy because you're trying to make sense of it -- and it doesn't make sense. (That's why it's called "crazy-making behavior" -- it makes us feel like we're going crazy -- in fact, we are, if we begin to accept it as reality.) It makes no sense. It doesn't and won't ever make any sense. You are getting a front-row view of BPD, uncut and uncensored, my friend. And it's fascinating, and terrifying -- and very dangerous, and hurtful to you. Because you love your kids, and you still love her -- and you probably still sometimes feel like you're just having a really bizarre, really bad nightmare, and are just waiting to wake up. I know.

When I went through what you're going through (divorcing my uBPDexw, fighting for custody of our son), I learned through hard and often humiliating experience that I had to take everything that my ex wife told me with a complete grain of salt. Literally -- I had to learn how to let her words go in one ear and out the other. Those same words that I'd lived for, which I'd taken a vow to always listen to and consider -- I had to teach myself that they weren't much more than noise that sounded like sentences being spoken in English.

You have to try your best to detach with compassion. I see my latest ex going through cycles as well. Her pattern seems to be rapid-cycling at onset of dysregulation -- hates me one minute, can't live without me the next -- which then settles into a long anger phase. When we broke up last year, and she realized it really was a break-up, and not some dramatic argument that would follow the time-worn formula of teary apologies on both sides and make-up sex -- she spent about 2 full months sending me vicious, hateful, accusatory emails, txt msgs and voicemails. Then, suddenly and for reasons I still don't fully understand, she wanted to reconcile. And we did.

Lasted another year before the next complete breakdown. As with the last time, she started rapidly alternating between hating me and attacking me and everything about me and our r-ship -- with poignant longing emails and heartfelt apologies for every single thing she does to cause the r-ship to flounder (those same things which, when I attempt to bring them to her attention, are met with nothing short of outrage). When I consistently held to NC, she then switched into hate-smearing overdrive -- and has continued virtually unabated for about 3 months now. Then, the other day, she said she wants to try again. No idea why -- though she tells me that it's because, "despite everything you've done to me" (this, in her mind, includes physically, emotionally and verbally abusing her, relentlessly criticizing her non-stop, isolating her from her family and friends, and abandoning her while she was in the hospital), she "still loves" me.

Sure, I'd love to make sense of it. A year ago, I would have given anything to believe it -- and I did -- I agreed to reconcile with her and to try again. I stayed in the counseling that we'd started together before we split up -- she didn't. I learned and practiced new communication techniques -- she didn't. I adjusted to her quirks, and opened myself up to trying to understand her issues -- the end result? Eventually, her cycling became a little less frequent (went from every 3-4 days to once a week, to twice a month) -- but it never stopped. And she continued to dodge and evade *her* accountability -- any mood swings are attributed to stress, family, job, money, asthma, PMS, pre-menopause, ADHD, mold, gluten, her daughter's behavior, her daughter's birds, traffic, etc. She still refuses to accept that she has a PD of any kind -- oh, wait, except for D.I.D -- which she feels is completely ok and she's comfortable with it. Surely, I can't think it has anything to do with our struggles... .

Last year, I believed it. This year, I want to believe that it's true -- but I know it's not. Not that she's lying to me -- she believes it. Now. And she'll continue to believe it -- until she believes something else. And I'll lose again. We'll get along just fine, if I basically stay away from her, and we're never intimate. I'm too old for that kind of thing.

They like to believe that the formula is:

Love --> Intimacy --> Love --> Happiness.


And when the bliss is disrupted by the inevitable bump along the love trail, it's smoothed over by Open Communication and Understanding.

What the BPD makes them blind to is the actual formula. As soon as the intimacy line is crossed -- *bam!* It looks more like this:

Intimacy --> Engulfment --> Fear of abandonment --> BPD Partytime!


When the bliss is disrupted --> IT'S YOUR FAULT!

... .when you try to communic -  --> IT'S YOUR FAULT!

... .when you try to underst -  --> IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!

Thing is, and I say this with complete sadness doc -- it doesn't seem to end until you end it. I feel for you. It sucks.

Hang in there.

e.
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"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
Dr.Me2
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 12:30:51 PM »

Thank you all for your support, good advice and comments,

I am not sure where I would be today without this site.

We don't have family nearby. Just good friends, which makes the whole situation more complex.

It is truly like dealing with a child trapped in an adult body. The only difference is that the quest to understand and make sense of all this chaos makes you somehow get centered, get control of yourself and your emotions, get grounded and grow introspectively.

To know yourself better is a journey of discovery that can be turbo accelerated when unfortunately you have dealt with a person with BPD. I am kind of sad to hear that the T profession has kept this hidden, out of the public awareness and in secret for so many years since they did not know how to deal with the BP disorder themselves. Maybe I could have started this path of growth many years ago instead of just now.

Yes, her illness as you pointed out eyvindr still makes her believe I am the source of the problem.

You are right, taking everything as a grain of salt, detaching with compassion, looking at the actions and not the words.

I feel like the Star Wars movie where the enemy comes from all and every place without warning, you never know when is going to be the next attack. You may destroy their ships (JADE and SET) but you won't destroy the evil empire (BPD) until you get destroy the core of the mother ship (Therapy and meds) and to attack this most sensitive spot can only be accomplish (with detachment and compassion) when you are ready, unemotional, well equipped and flawless execution at the right moment in the time of battle.




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eyvindr
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 03:11:43 PM »

I with you here, doc --

To know yourself better is a journey of discovery that can be turbo accelerated when unfortunately you have dealt with a person with BPD. I am kind of sad to hear that the T profession has kept this hidden, out of the public awareness and in secret for so many years since they did not know how to deal with the BP disorder themselves. Maybe I could have started this path of growth many years ago instead of just now.

Kind of how I feel about Crossfit -- wish it had existed when I was a teenager, and I could have started it at, say, 20 -- instead of 49. Pretty sure I'd be living a different life at this point.

I feel like the Star Wars movie where the enemy comes from all and every place without warning, you never know when is going to be the next attack. You may destroy their ships (JADE and SET) but you won't destroy the evil empire (BPD) until you get destroy the core of the mother ship (Therapy and meds) and to attack this most sensitive spot can only be accomplish (with detachment and compassion) when you are ready, unemotional, well equipped and flawless execution at the right moment in the time of battle.

I like the metaphor.

e.
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"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
Dr.Me2
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 10:44:49 PM »

Yes,

Even them, the pwBPD would like to know also how to destroy the mother ship and stop the suffering Idea

The answer resides with those that have asked all the questions  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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petridish

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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 11:09:50 PM »

My parents never split up, but my uBPD mother has at various times used at least me as a venting person when mad at my father. Here's what he did that I think ended up being successful at making it clear to me who was the one with issues and who I could go to with emotional distress:

1. He didn't ever bad-mouth her. He acknowledged that she had issues that were difficult for her to deal with. He told me that under that, she loved me as best she could. He would let me know she couldn't talk to me like that and promise to talk to her (which I think he did; she just lacks self-control when lashing out). He also would talk about his mother, who was by all accounts a very loving mother -- in retrospect, I think he was sort of letting me know in a concrete way that my mother wasn't normal and that other mothering styles exist and to model them via stories for me somehow. But he never bad-mouthed my mother and even now, when his short-term memory is gone and she's even more unpredictable towards him and I'm an adult, he is hesitant to say anything bad about her.

At worst, when I was a kid, he would say something like "your mother's going through a hard time right now and she shouldn't treat you like that, but she's hurting and doesn't know how to handle it." (Enabling, yes, but protected me from taking her lashing out more seriously.) If I reported back to him something bad that she had said about him, he would say something like "Parents shouldn't talk badly about each other to their kids. It's not fair to the kids. She should have told me about that, not you. I'll talk to her about that. If she brings it up with you again, let her know to talk to me directly." (Of course, telling her that never worked, but his message still was clear.) He worked hard not to override her parenting (her short attention span meant he could wait some stuff out, I think, rather than fight over it).

2. He was consistent. She wasn't. This meant we might not get the same FUN! times from him, but we didn't get the unexpected lashing out and stuff either. I remember him having time to listen to me and to soothe me when I was sad or angry, which my mother was rarely able or willing to do.

3. I don't know if this is universal, but he has a better sense of humor. He can laugh at himself easily.

4. He kept his relationship with his kids as separate as possible from our relationship with our mother or his relationship with her. Meaning that he didn't act jealous of us spending time with her (she was the more lenient parent except when she was randomly punishing) over him. He didn't use us to pass messages. He didn't overshare with us. We could vent to him about stuff I'm sure he also experienced from her, but he never vented back in any specifics -- at most, he might affirm the reality by saying that yes, she IS quite sensitive and sometimes responds in a way that you and I might not to some stuff.


I don't know if any of this is useful given that she's gone NC with you, but just wanted to throw it out there in case it might help. I think basically as the non-pwBPD parent, you are at an advantage as long as you can be that stable, consistent adult that their other parent isn't.
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eyvindr
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Relationship status: NC
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2013, 11:13:31 PM »

Your dad sounds like a great father, petridish -- thank you for sharing.

e.
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"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
Dr.Me2
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2013, 11:45:55 PM »

petridish,

For any person under these circumstances to never bad-mouth a pwBPD is remarkable and very respectable indeed. The ultimate test of self-control which is the longing of all pwBPD.

I relate 100% with all your points. Especially point 2 and 3.

You are right and thank you for this: As long as I can remain stable and consistent I have the advantage.
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