Did I fold on my boundary? Losing my perspective on what is healthy

[Sluggo]

This post was in the 'lawyer board' (Marriage Therapist meeting tomorrow... .)but as the thread continued started to sound like it should go on this board. 

For 10 weeks I have held strong to my boundary that I would not comply to my wife demand 'you can only talk to your family when I am in your presence' .  I told her that was unreasonable and I was not going to comply.  She said then I was picking Divorce.  It was getting easier and easier to keep this and I was feeling in better inside even though my home life was awful: silent treatment between rages, parent alienation with my daughter, outburst from my dBPDw to the kids that she is divorcing me as soon as our baby is born, pulling kids out of car when taking them to an event, sleeping in separate rooms,  to telling our marriage therapist that on Friday there is nothing that I could do and she wants out.  I had plan B ready (divorce attorney initial consult, my family ready to help with our other 7 kids with school and appointments, etc).

Friday after our therapist meeting, we were working on what would be our living arrangements while we are waiting for the divorce. She was very emotional and I saw her so broken.  She said that things would be better if I would comply to her demand.  I am not sure why but I said yes I would.  I had spent almost 10 weeks saying no and then said yes on Friday.  Saturday, Sunday, Monday and today she is back to 'normal' and engaging with me, pleasant, etc.  It was like giving a little kid, who is screaming, the toy he is asking for then is totally content after giving it to him like nothing happened. 

What I am struggling: with is that I am losing my perspective on what is healthy

• I felt good about telling her that I would comply that night but then felt remorse the next day... .especially after letting my family know that is what I was going to do.  My sister said that your wife just successfully isolated you from everyone else



• I was replaying in my mind what the Marriage T said: if you know that you talking to your family causes you so much pain why would you do it.  At the time I told T it was an unreasonable demand.  However I kept replaying that in my mind



• I saw her in so much paid so I felt like that was a compassionate thing to do... .as I said only 30 days.

I am losing my perspective on what is healthy:  Was it right to fold?  Was I really being compassionate?  Or was I being bullied by the D threat?  Or was I trying to restore peace back into our home and children.  Why did I keep the boundary so firm for 10 weeks and then in 1 sentence give her what she initially wanted (especially after all the damage had been done).    http://www.


Here is where my mind was on Friday after the T appointment but before the talk with my wife on Friday night.  

Well, just back from appointment...

Long and short... .he asked my wife Is there anything that your husband can do that will win your love back etc.  She said no and he asked 2 more times... .and she said it would have to be a miracle.  He said I don't have any miracles.  A marriage can't work if it is only one person that wants it.  It needs both.  .

He said it is obvious you can't afford a divorce (financially living separately with her not working).  Where would you go?  How would it work?   I can help with the ground rules on how to live in the house together amicably.  Are you willing to want me help you through that.  She said that I want him out of the house.  I said I would be happy to get her an apartment but I do not want to leave the kids.  She said no but then said later in the meeting I will be happy to leave the house after the baby is born.  T said I will set an appointment next week if you can come in good faith to work on the terms of living together for the sake of the kids (stressed to wife not to work on marriage as she said earlier she didn't want that).

Wife called me shortly after meeting and said she wants to talk tonight on what these terms are and wants them written down.  I feel a little cornered on writing down something to an agreement that I might not find was right later on.  I feel a little overwhelmed about is this going to be a marathon night of discussion.  I am afraid it will be a night of name calling and hearing how bad I have been over the last 14 years.   

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[HopefulDad]

You got played.  You have to fix that, no matter what she does.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi All4BVM, I get that it's easy to lose perspective and question yourself. It's been a long 10 weeks, I'm sure.

Do you regret saying what you did? In your heart of hearts? You always have the right to change your  mind, even if you promised something in a loaded moment. What's most important long term, what will work best long term? That's where you'll find your answer. Isolating you, and by consequence also your children, from your family is not a good long term solution, I think. I remember the reasons she doesn't want you to talk to your family without her present. It's still an unreasonable demand. 10 weeks of divorce threats doesn't change that.

We're with you, All4BVM!

[dawnjd]

For 10 weeks I have held strong to my boundary that I would not comply to my wife demand 'you can only talk to your family when I am in your presence' .  I told her that was unreasonable and I was not going to comply.  She said then I was picking Divorce. 

Maybe someone who has been around longer can answer this, but is this an actual boundary? I mean, I am not judging your boundary, but it sounds like your wife is the one with that boundary. She has decided that she won't tolerate your talking to family without her presence and her solution when that boundary is broken, is to end the relationship. Not saying it is right or wrong, just suggesting that you don't want to change that behaviour and have to decide if you want to survive the consequences.

Were you played? Don't know, but we all have to practice and repractice keeping our boundaries. If we slip, then we go back and reevaluate. If being able to talk to family without her around is important, then you have to decide if you are willing to put up with her way of dealing with your "breaking her boundary".

Again, I am still trying to get the boundary thing right (as I was once set right on what boundaries are or aren't at this forum!). So maybe someone with more expereince can help explain this better.

[waverider]

It was not a boundary as such. A boundary would have been not to have the discussion and leave if it was brought up. Hence the need to defend it would have been eliminated. So a lack of boundary exposed you to the risk of capitulation.

But that is still splitting hairs. It is really about being inconsistent (understandable) that got you in trouble.

So what to do now?

Well first off it is not about tomorrow, or the day after, it is about next /month /year/rest of life. What is the right choice in the longer term? Sooner or later you will have to do what is right, or you wont be able to live with it, and it will be an ongoing bone of contention.

So your options are.

a)Be happy with it for now and evermore.

b)Break your word in a month/years time and undo all the progress you may have made in the meantime

c)Break your word today, you wife will then have to choose whether to enact her apparent threat/boundary. Whatever happens you can then move on from there knowing you did the right thing.

Ultimately it is not about keeping the peace, but what is right for you

Keep in mind if you keep this under duress you will have validated your wife's ability to dominate you by force of will. It is likely to be repeated on another issue in the future. It's not just about the issue its about the process.

[HopefulDad]

Ultimately it is not about keeping the peace, but what is right for you

Keep in mind if you keep this under duress you will have validated your wife's ability to dominate you by force of will. It is likely to be repeated on another issue in the future. It's not just about the issue its about the process.

Wise words.  The message you've sent to your wife, which she now understands very clearly is:

- First, try to kick, scream and make threats to get my way.  If that fails... .

- Show how hurt I am by not getting my way.

Of course your wife is now acting better... .she got her way.  And knows how to do it again.  I think you have to undo what you just did.

[HopefulDad]

Addendum to my last post... .

BTW, I'm in a similar boat right now.  I've asked my BPDw for a "controlled separation" and she resisted furiously and is now going the "smother me with kindness" route to shorten the length of time we're separated.  I'm trying very hard to be mindful that this is an attempt to mitigate her fear of abandonment, not that she truly wants change.

[briefcase]

My most painful experiences have involved the conflict between my wife and my parents.  You have my understanding, and sympathy.  This is painful, painful stuff.

Just judging from the what you wrote here, it sounds like you feel you caved.  It happens to the best of us sometimes.  You can change your mind.

It might help to think through your own boundaries around what you will allow and not allow when it comes to interference with your family.  Next time, she may ask that you not talk to your family at all, ever again . . . or else.  How does that sound?

[Sluggo]

Thank you all for your replies... .Hopeful, Scarlet, Dawn, waverider

Do you regret saying what you did? In your heart of hearts? You always have the right to change your  mind, even if you promised something in a loaded moment. What's most important long term, what will work best long term? That's where you'll find your answer.

  I am not sure if all the dust settled for me emotionally on it to clearly see.  I regret the fact that I still see it as a totally unreasonable request and said yes to it.  I think up to this point I have rationalized it like this:  perhaps there was such a severe deregulation spiraling out of control that by giving in on 30 days will snap her back into place to start thinking correctly.  Perhaps the pregnanacy adding to all the deregulation. 

I know it is not good to judge a decision on her response (as a good decision is a good decision despite what other think), but things are calm again at the home and she is communicating now.  She reached out to my mom and set up a play time for the kids to go to her house over this weekend.  She apologized to me in front of all the kids at dinner last night stating that she is sorry for the way she has spoken and been disrespectful to me over the last 10 weeks.  I was able to state firmly that I want one of our daughters to start going to counseling as she seems to have been very affected by all of this-I have aquiexed.  May have opportunity for the other older kids also. 

TOMORROW:  We are going to see the marriage T tomorrow.  Not sure what he will think with my wife as he will see someone very different emotional state.  Tomorrow will be my opportunity for me to say things.  Thinking on how to say what I feel but still be sensitive of wife's emotional state.   

Mr T.  I still think that having the demand of my wife stating I can only talk to my family in her presence is unreasonable.  It is not really addressing the root of the problem however I agreed to it as a way to show my support for my wife.  I do not believe that taking myself away from healthy emotional support is in my best interest over the long term and is detrimental to me as a person and to our marriage.  I believe the root of the problem comes what I think my wife feels as a lack of feeling of love and that I have been trying to be the person to fill that for her.  Over the years I have mistakenly confused loving my wife in trying to fulfill all her emotional needs.  When I realized that I cannot fill those needs and my wife's frustration of not getting all her emotional needs met by me that has caused a lot of conflict.  As this this conflicted has escalated and me trying even harder to please her it has caused more pain for her and me as she has lashed out in anger.  In this anger I have pulled back over the years finding more and more 'safe' topics to talk about.  My wife in more frustration has lashed out more and more.  This has created a downward spiral.  I struggle with opening myself up emotionally to her as she is looking to me for all her emotional fulfillment and these times I do it results in pain and anger for her thus me retracting even more.  I love my wife and want to make our marriage work but I recognize that there are some foundational flaws that has resulted in some major ruptures.

What would you change, edit, or rephrase.  Or would you have any other ideas when we go to the Marriage T tomorrow. 

Thank you all as always. 

[HopefulDad]

Mr T.  I still think that having the demand of my wife stating I can only talk to my family in her presence is unreasonable.  It is not really addressing the root of the problem however I agreed to it as a way to show my support for my wife.  I do not believe that taking myself away from healthy emotional support is in my best interest over the long term and is detrimental to me as a person and to our marriage.  I believe the root of the problem comes what I think my wife feels as a lack of feeling of love and that I have been trying to be the person to fill that for her.  Over the years I have mistakenly confused loving my wife in trying to fulfill all her emotional needs.  When I realized that I cannot fill those needs and my wife's frustration of not getting all her emotional needs met by me that has caused a lot of conflict.  As this this conflicted has escalated and me trying even harder to please her it has caused more pain for her and me as she has lashed out in anger.  In this anger I have pulled back over the years finding more and more 'safe' topics to talk about.  My wife in more frustration has lashed out more and more.  This has created a downward spiral.  I struggle with opening myself up emotionally to her as she is looking to me for all her emotional fulfillment and these times I do it results in pain and anger for her thus me retracting even more.  I love my wife and want to make our marriage work but I recognize that there are some foundational flaws that has resulted in some major ruptures.

What would you change, edit, or rephrase.  Or would you have any other ideas when we go to the Marriage T tomorrow. 

Thank you all as always. 

I think this is good.  On the part I bolded, this is something that I also had been doing and my CBT explained that although my intentions were good (spare BPDw stress, spare myself the fallout of that), in essence I was trying to control her emotions.  It's not my job to manage her, to handle her, to control her.  Plus, she sensed I wasn't fully communicative which made things worse ("my husband doesn't open up to me".

So now I'm very open with her and guess what: I trigger her more.  But that's on her.  And if/when she's ready to own that and work on it, I hope progress is made.  But at least I'm done unwittingly contributing to her judgment that I'm distant and always keeping things bottled up.

[Sluggo]

In this anger I have pulled back over the years finding more and more 'safe' topics to talk about.  My wife in more frustration has lashed out more and more.  This has created a downward spiral.  I struggle with opening myself up emotionally to her as she is looking to me for all her emotional fulfillment and these times I do it results in pain and anger for her thus me retracting even more.  I love my wife and want to make our marriage work but I recognize that there are some foundational flaws that has resulted in some major ruptures.

HopefulDad,  How would your CBT tell you to rephrase it?

[HopefulDad]

Don't rephrase anything on the bolded.  My CBT just pointed out to me that what I was doing was ultimately controlling.  See what your therapist says about that.

[briefcase]

The statement to the therapist looks good fine.  And I agree, you should see what he says in reaction the bolded text. 

Many of us self-censored, pulled back, and tried to find "safe" topics in an effort to control the emotional reaction of our partners.  It's worth exploring this dynamic in therapy.      

[Grey Kitty]

I can understand where you are now and how you got there. It sounds like you are getting some better behavior out of it now; that has to be an incredible relief for both you and her.

This is just one issue, not everything in the world.

Are you still talking with your family (in her presence)? How is it going?

Are you prepared to enforce boundaries regarding verbal abuse or continuing to enforce them?

Giving in one one issue does not have to be going back to ground zero.

 GK

[Sluggo]

Brief case, Hopeful Dad, and GT,

Went to see the marriage T last Friday.  I said my piece as described earlier and his reaction was one of 'yes I think you nailed it' in his facial expressions. My wife didn't complete argue with all of what I said and somewhat agreed.  I asked him directly if it was a reasonable request.  T said that for most couples that no contact (or to contact family only when my wife is present) is not reasonable BUT it may be reasonable in your situation with all the hurt your wife has felt by your mom (I think most of it is a perceived hurt and mostly being overly sensitive).  I felt the marriage T was validating what my wife wanted for contact rules (which is what I agreed to the week before).  Although I don't agree 100%.

Then the topic seemed to turn to a new 'incidence' with my mom.   My wife did initiate a sleep over of our 2 daughters with my mom.  My mom was happy with that.  The pick up time was to be after my daughter's bball game.  However, my wife said to pick her up after the game.  My mom said she was going to go to the game.  My wife said no I don't want you at the game.  (however my wife invited her the following day to a prayer service at a local community site where the kids drop off was going to be).  I told the T that I am in the middle of this and I think my wife wants me to intervene.   He said she probably does want you to intervene.  So T asked if I would be willing to do tell my Mom that my wife does not feel validated when mom disregards wife's wishes.  I said I would do that.  I did say something to my Mom at the game as she did show up to the game.  I did feel uncomfortable in talking with my Mom about it (we spoke after the game).  I don't like confrontation to begin with but worse with a family member.  Felt that the marriage T again validated the requested response my wife wished for.   

So yes I am a little confused as what the T said and that I didn't feel 100% convinced was the most healthy response for me to do.  But I deferred to his 'expertise' in weighing what the appropriate response should be (or at least what I thought he was negotiating for).  This also feeds into what my T says that 'I always look for how it is my fault'.   

[Grey Kitty]

I asked him directly if it was a reasonable request.  T said that for most couples that no contact (or to contact family only when my wife is present) is not reasonable BUT it may be reasonable in your situation with all the hurt your wife has felt by your mom

I think he hit something here, and said it rather diplomatically.

1. Your wife's request is completely unreasonable. Many of us here said that to you earlier when you first brought it up.

2. It has value as a compromise in the situation based on how your wife is feeling right now.

Remember, her feelings are never wrong--she is really feeling them. It doesn't matter whether you or your mother or anybody else wanted her to feel hurt, she really did feel it.

It sounds like you have a good T working for you right now. 

I'm encouraged to hear that there is some thawing out by your wife. It wasn't long ago that she was going to file for divorce as soon as she gave birth.

Hang in there!

[Sluggo]

Thanks Grey Kitty,

Yes there has been a rapid thawing out which has been very good for everyone.   My d12 seems almost back to her normal happy demeanor.

1. Your wife's request is completely unreasonable. Many of us here said that to you earlier when you first brought it up.

2. It has value as a compromise in the situation based on how your wife is feeling right now.

Glad to hear confirmation of this #2 and reconfirmation #1.  As I am still trying to feel through all of this.  

 

[briefcase]

As I mentioned above, these are tricky emotional waters for you to navigate, and it sounds like you are doing a pretty good job.  It sucks to be in the middle like you are.  I've had a lot of those uncomfortable conversations with my parents too.  

I'm a little concerned that the T is validating some of your wife's invalid thoughts about communication and levels of control, but he might be working through some baby steps.  

Do you have a therapist for yourself, who doesn't also work with your wife?  If not, it might be something to consider.  I get the sense that the marriage T is trying to balance a lot of things to keep everyone engaged.  It might help to have someone just looking out for you.  

[Sluggo]

I'm a little concerned that the T is validating some of your wife's invalid thoughts about communication and levels of control, but he might be working through some baby steps. 

That is my concern... .however maybe he is trying to get buy in from my wife.  It does confuse me some as it seems he tries to make my wife's position sound reasonable.  Then I start 2nd guessing myself

Yes, I do have a T (last 3 years) which I have been seeing separate from the Marriage T.  My wife has also a different T (was seeing for 6 months, then 12 month break as he had to finish his Intern, now seeing for last 5 months).   

[Grey Kitty]

How have things been going recently? That was a big change a couple weeks ago.

[an0ught]

Hi All4BVM

Went to see the marriage T last Friday.  I said my piece as described earlier and his reaction was one of 'yes I think you nailed it' in his facial expressions. My wife didn't complete argue with all of what I said and somewhat agreed.  I asked him directly if it was a reasonable request.  T said that for most couples that no contact (or to contact family only when my wife is present) is not reasonable BUT it may be reasonable in your situation with all the hurt your wife has felt by your mom (I think most of it is a perceived hurt and mostly being overly sensitive).  I felt the marriage T was validating what my wife wanted for contact rules (which is what I agreed to the week before).  Although I don't agree 100%.

When reading your posts in this thread even before this one I sensed you are struggling validating your wife because you are afraid that being agreement. Of course it is hard to validate at the point where you are in the relationship  .

Without her hearing that her fears are heard the need for her to control you will become unbearable and her demands become more extreme. It is then totally reasonable for your wife to demand this. You can fully understand that she is hurt, is afraid of more unbearable hurt coming from your family, is afraid of your family using you against her. Is that clear to you? Have you made clear to her that this is clear to you?

Does not mean you agree to her demands... .

Validation is active listening and NOT agreement!