What exactly happened here?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I should probably know the answer to my own question by now, but I need some feedback please…

My uexBPDbf, 57yrs old set up a FB page some time ago.  Last I knew he had a whopping 3 friends.  Two are former gf’s and the other is a woman who is interested in him.  On the other hand, his contact list on his iphone has probably over 100 names and numbers of women.  This list contains all his former gf’s, and contact info for every woman that is/was interested in him or that he might be interested in.

During our relationship this was always one of our issues.  He absolutely, flat out refused to delete or discontinue contact with these people.  He’d receive occasional texts or calls and never tell these people he was in a serious relationship.  Whenever I was around him he'd have his phone on silent mode.  He carried his phone with him everywhere; when he went to the bathroom, showered - everywhere.  We dated for 5 ½ years.

He has no male friends or family that speak to him.  His one and only friend is another former gf (the one he left and divorced his wife for).  For the last 3 ½ years she’s caused nothing but mayhem in our relationship.  She moved to be closer to him, works for him and still holds him as her “medical proxy”, despite “supposedly” (I do not believe this to be true) being engaged to someone else.  He confides all our relationship issues to her, seeking her advice.  He’s admitted to me that he feels that she still has feelings for him.  The two of them constantly lied about being in each others lives to me, over and over again.  BTW, she receives disability for an undisclosed mental illness.  :)espite all this, and after dealing with it for 3 ½ years I told him if we were to give our relationship one last go there were three things had to happen:

1.   Reconnect with male friends and forget about all the women in his past.

2.   Tell the “hag” it was time for her to move on and leave us alone.

3.   Along with individual help for himself, we needed couples counseling.

Well, he made one effort to reconnect with an old college buddy, but that didn’t work out because he did not like the guy’s new wife.  Refuses to tell the “hag” to move on and reneged on couples counseling and instead projected, gaslighted, devalued, discarded (recycled) me.

For a long time (not being aware of BPD) I gave him the benefit of the doubt (of course we'd argue about it and he would always claim I was insanely jealous), but as I slowly emerge from the FOG it seems way too bizarre to me.  As I try to understand BPD, would most of this have to do with abandonment issues, or was there some other dynamic going on?  Or, was I just one big stupid hit_ (one of his favorite words for me)?

[LilMissSunshine]

I should probably know the answer to my own question by now, but I need some feedback please…

My uexBPDbf, 57yrs old set up a FB page some time ago.  Last I knew he had a whopping 3 friends.  Two are former gf’s and the other is a woman who is interested in him.  On the other hand, his contact list on his iphone has probably over 100 names and numbers of women.  This list contains all his former gf’s, and contact info for every woman that is/was interested in him or that he might be interested in.

During our relationship this was always one of our issues.  He absolutely, flat out refused to delete or discontinue contact with these people.  He’d receive occasional texts or calls and never tell these people he was in a serious relationship.  Whenever I was around him he'd have his phone on silent mode.  He carried his phone with him everywhere; when he went to the bathroom, showered - everywhere.  We dated for 5 ½ years.

He has no male friends or family that speak to him.  His one and only friend is another former gf (the one he left and divorced his wife for).  For the last 3 ½ years she’s caused nothing but mayhem in our relationship.  She moved to be closer to him, works for him and still holds him as her “medical proxy”, despite “supposedly” (I do not believe this to be true) being engaged to someone else.  He confides all our relationship issues to her, seeking her advice.  He’s admitted to me that he feels that she still has feelings for him.  The two of them constantly lied about being in each others lives to me, over and over again.  BTW, she receives disability for an undisclosed mental illness.  :)espite all this, and after dealing with it for 3 ½ years I told him if we were to give our relationship one last go there were three things had to happen:

1.   Reconnect with male friends and forget about all the women in his past.

2.   Tell the “hag” it was time for her to move on and leave us alone.

3.   Along with individual help for himself, we needed couples counseling.

Well, he made one effort to reconnect with an old college buddy, but that didn’t work out because he did not like the guy’s new wife.  Refuses to tell the “hag” to move on and reneged on couples counseling and instead projected, gaslighted, devalued, discarded (recycled) me.

For a long time (not being aware of BPD) I gave him the benefit of the doubt (of course we'd argue about it and he would always claim I was insanely jealous), but as I slowly emerge from the FOG it seems way too bizarre to me.  As I try to understand BPD, would most of this have to do with abandonment issues, or was there some other dynamic going on?  Or, was I just one big stupid hit_ (one of his favorite words for me)?

[seeking balance]

Having an unstable sense of self at time, pwBPD can use other people to balance that out.  People are objects that help them cope in times of distress.

During our relationship this was always one of our issues.  He absolutely, flat out refused to delete or discontinue contact with these people.  He’d receive occasional texts or calls and never tell these people he was in a serious relationship.  Whenever I was around him he'd have his phone on silent mode.  He carried his phone with him everywhere; when he went to the bathroom, showered - everywhere.  We dated for 5 ½ years.

Why did you want him to discontinue contact?

[LilMissSunshine]

Well, the first two years of our relationship I was basically okay with it.  I trusted him.  Of course, the occasional texts bugged me because I felt he was leading them on by not telling them he was in a serious relationship.  As time went on he started lying... . "oh, I told them all (many woman) I was with you, but they won't stop contacting me".  Turns out he was the one initiating most of the contact.  Then over time and for the past 3 1/2 years being more secretive about it.  Plus, he's the one that always ended his relationships.  Therefore I felt he should stop contacting these women and focus his attention onto reconnecting with male friends.

[seeking balance]

Well, the first two years of our relationship I was basically okay with it.  I trusted him. 

oh ok - thanks for clarifying.

Of course, the occasional texts bugged me because I felt he was leading them on by not telling them he was in a serious relationship.  As time went on he started lying... . "oh, I told them all (many woman) I was with you, but they won't stop contacting me".  Turns out he was the one initiating most of the contact.  Then over time and for the past 3 1/2 years being more secretive about it.  Plus, he's the one that always ended his relationships.  Therefore I felt he should stop contacting these women and focus his attention onto reconnecting with male friends.

Well, this is pretty common coping of pwBPD... . mine, yours and others.  It is a common maladaptive coping tool for some emotion he felt... . right/wrong doesn't even matter at this point because the only thing that matters is YOU now.

Do you see these actions as a personal slap in the face?  I know I did.  It pushed my own "not enough" buttons.  For me, when I really focused on the facts, I could own my part and see that so much of it was simply not about me at all.  It was a very high functioning mentally ill person getting through life.

How do you feel about him doing this?

[LilMissSunshine]

I really do feel it was a HUGE slap in the face.  I divorced my husband because, well, he just couldn't keep it in his pants.  It was very painful (sought therapy for two years) and I confided this to my exBPDbf.  He was well aware of how much that behavior hurt me and the work I had to do to heal and forgive my xhusband.  So much so that after a twenty year marriage, I waiting 5 years before dating again making sure I was healthy and ready.  He was the first one I met, and he swept me off my feet (stage 1).  I attributed my former therapy to my willingness to "deal" with his "womanizing" for two years.  My "not enough" button, or achilles heal, was a thing of the past.  I though I had and was using the correct tools to deal with this behavior until it got too much.  Now, that I really think about it, every time I tried talking to him about how hurtful it was to me, he'd rage (claiming I was insanely jealous) and flip me black.  You should also know that I never, ever spied on him.  He himself would tell me, this one or that one called or texted the other day, etc.  I can say, I was never jealous - ever.  I was very hurt that he couldn't see what his behavior was doing to me based on what he knew about my past.  I was also worried.  Worried because I knew before he ended every past relationship he was ever in, he was already with someone new.  Actually SB, is the way I felt a form of jealousy?

[seeking balance]

Actually SB, is the way I felt a form of jealousy?

I can only share my experience - this is really a question for your T.

My feelings were residual stuff that I thought I dealt with in therapy years before  - I was naive - I thought if I dealt with my stuff, honest about it, that was my 1/2 of the equation in the next relationship... . enter BPD.

I didn't "get" that my trigger would kinda always be under the surface and for years, that trigger served a good purpose too - my gut instinct.

Actions and words of someone else is all I can go on and this takes time.  When someone puts their stuff on me now, I notice and slowly back away... . I don't own it.

I think this relationship might be a good gauge on where you are with your issues, how far you did come and how you deserve someone next time in the same place as you.

Look, someone going "outside" of a relationship for any core needs (emotional, physical, spiritual) has to be balanced with boundaries.  pwBPD simply don't do boundaries well.  His behavior was not indicative of your worth as a partner - he is just someone with maladaptive coping.  You did your best, this is not about you - but it was your core stuff that kept you in there trying to reword and change someone - this is something you can work on likely.

Hope this makes some sense.

SB

[lets]

Hi LilMiss,

I can very much identify with you. I just ended my second go around with men I believe (very certain) are uBPD.  Both had many many female friends of all shapes and sizes- neither men ever slept with them (so I was told).  Just friends, but they both had a need to txt and have short controlled meetings (lunch, coffee etc) they were both pretty flirty which made me crazy and question what is appropriate behavior - was I over reacting (just like you say). 

As time goes on it is very difficult to not personalize their behavior. Luckily my second guy seemed very self aware of his illness and told me several times 'I'm a weird person, don't take any thing I do personally'. Now that I'm out I can see that like SB says- it's never about us, it's always about them getting their needs met- regardless of who they hurt.

It is about your boundaries, they really don't change without years of therapy. I found with me- I was like you - totally cool with it at the beginning- as the relationships went on it began to erode my self esteem and a slap in the face... . That coupled with the level of intimacy diminishing literally made me jealous- there are lots of dynamics at work

Try not to take it personal... . I know it's hard

Hope that helps- you aren't alone

[LilMissSunshine]

Lets - sure does suck.  I mean, I worked so hard to make sure I was ready for another relationship.  The last thing I wanted was to be was a jealous partner.  He took my one insecurity and pushed, pushed until I starting acting like someone I did not want to be (was that projection?).  Like SB said, he found (rather I told him) my trigger and he pushed my buttons.  Why?  Who wants to deal with that drama?  And like SB, I think that trigger will always be under the surface now, although I would like to believe I'm way over the jealousy hit_ because I do feel pretty secure with myself - at least I used to be before him.  I try to tell myself that this was all about his abandonment issues; making sure there was always someone in his life - that he was never alone.  Or perhaps that he needed all those ego strokes.  IDK.

SB, your right again.  I shouldn't have pushed him to change.  I thought I was mostly making him aware of how much he was hurting me, expecting that he would "act on his own" regarding this issue in a positive manner.  It wasn't until the last recycle, and after years of BS, that I finally told him I had  had enough.  Funny, seems like every day I was saying, "actions speak louder than words" and he would look at me like I had two heads. 

[irishmarmot]

It is great to read everybody's comments,  I am learning so much.  Thank you, my expwBPD had loads of male friends and over 200 fb friends mostly male.  Never put 2 and 2 together but my gut did.  Its time I listen to my gut the next time I get into a relationship.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I was the same I never wanted to look like the jealous girlfriend. Because I don't believe that I am at all. However, I believe there is unfounded jealousy and founded jealousy. When it is with reason we should listen to our instincts. Protecting our boundaries. Because I so badly not wanted to look this way I let go of red flags. They know this and use it against us. Turning it around on us that we are jealous and because we so not want to be we let them have their way to do what they please no matter how hurtful to us.

A person in a relationship that truly cared about you would not be texting, communicating with the opposite sex, especially an ex. They would bend over backwards to not have even the look of impropriety so as not to lose you.

I am not saying no one can have friends of the opposite sex but I think that relationship should have limits and only in certain circumstances. I think all of a sudden coming up with a new friend of the opposite sex is very suspect. Many of these so called friendships are completely inappropriate (either budding relationships, keeping them in the wings or even worse they are cheating with them already and lying that they are) but we are shamed into allowing it. Sometimes we have to give certain things up if we care about someone.

I used to think that I should be trusting until someone showed they cannot be trusted. I now have learned and believe this is true that we should not be mistrustful but that we should reserve fully trusting someone until they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they can be trusted. Blindly trusting anyone is just not smart. Especially someone you are giving your all to. Your heart and soul. Does not make you an untrusting person like he tried to make me out to be.

And of course in the end it turns out he was he was lying and cheating while telling me I was just being jealous and swearing he would never do something so horrible to someone. My instincts were right on the money. I should have listened sooner.

[LilMissSunshine]

A person in a relationship that truly cared about you would not be texting, comunicating with the opposite sex, especially an ex. They would bend over backwards to not have even the look of impropriety so as not to lose you.

That's exactly how I felt, yet the more it started bothering me the more he did it.

Something I'm realizing as I try to understand this issue.  When I look back at our problems I'm having a hard time thinking of anything other than this issue that we would argue about.  The more I think about it, the more I'm remembering that HE would always bring them up; tell me about a convo they had, etc.  The last time, and this is pretty wierd... . okay... . just last weekend he told me that he had a former gf come into his office for dental work.  After her appointment, he asked her if she would trim his back (I'm serious).  They went in the bathroom and he stripped down to his waste and she did her "thing".  He said it was fine cuz she used to be a barber (huh?).  Now, I ask people here, was that not a bizarre thing to do or what?  I mean, why did he even tell me?  Of course, I felt the need to discuss what happened, but he imediately accused me of being jealous, etc., etc.

This sort of thing happened all the time actually.  Then I get flipped black, abandoned and discarded.

Three years ago he brought another X back into his life and she started working for him.  For three years now, I've had to endure listening to him about HER.  He swore he no longer had feelings for her but felt that she still wanted him.  Gez.  Of course, we'd argue, I'd get flipped black, abandoned and discarded.  The same thing with other women contacting him.  Mostly he'd tell me then blah, blah, blah.

[LilMissSunshine]

I must add that it seems when he and I were getting along, his X and he were not.  On the other hand when everything was fine and dandy between the two of them, I'd get mean, cruel, name calling, accusatory text messages from him - just out of the blue - and he would "end our relationship".  I mean we would spend a wonderful weekend together and the minute he was at work, all of a sudden I was "this", "that" and the "other thing" and according to him, it was over between the two of us.  Then within a short period of time we would get back together (cuz I would try to "fix" things).  This happened over and over and over again.

Could it be I'm figuring out what his trigger was?  Was it he setting himself up to be triggered?  Are pwBPD's aware of this and is this even possible with this disorder?

[Moonie75]

How did he react to you interacting with men? Was he insecure, jealous?

I had the same dynamic you describe in my BPD relationship. All these other men in the loop!

But if i interacted with a female on any level (innocently) she would get triggered big time!

She would even freak about me getting served a beer by a blonde barmaid, because my previous partner was blonde!

It was the most incredible display of double standards you could ever exhibit!

[LilMissSunshine]

Hm, I really didn't have much interaction with other men.  Good question Moonie, your making me think.  I have a ton of female friends.  So, I guess most would have been with male members of my family.  According to him, everyone of them had something "wrong" with them.  But, then again, he said that about all my friends, family and even children.  If we were out and a man did flirt with me (member of a band, bartender, home depot dude, etc.) he was the one bringing it to my attention as I never noticed.

[LilMissSunshine]

So do you think our X's were in a weird way, preparing to trigger themselves?

[arn131arn]

I think my frontal lobe exploded thinking about that question. To answer, yes I do. I believe that they are masters at direction. I believe my ex if triggered by abandonment would cause chaos to blow things up. During one split, a girl at school was interested in me. I was flattered, we'd talk, text about school stuff. We were the same major. I knew she liked me but was just getting over ex, ya know. 2 months later I recycled. Everything was going great. She knew thru checking cell records I had been in contact with this girl previously. She held the number, x mas eve night after I built all the toys for my son, i was tired and went to bed. She texted the girl from my phone something sexual. The girl texted back me too, finally! Ever since then I hited her during our break, she ruined x mas but was all my fault!

[Moonie75]

DEFINITELY!

They seek the proof that we will abandon them! If it's not there, they invent/create it!

[LilMissSunshine]

Geez, she really did that arn?  What a complete f$%ked up setup.  If it makes you feel better my frontal lobe has been exploding evah sense I first heard of BPD.

Do you guys think that because I never snooped on him (believe me had plenty of opportunities, but it's not my thing) that may be the reason he just started telling me stuff like it was no big deal?  I guess he had to in order to get some kind of a reaction from me in order to complete the invent/create, rage, devalue, abandon, discard process?

Moonie, what do you mean by the invent/create it?  The fabrications?  The twisting of facts?  One of his biggest complaints about me was my so called "jealousy", yet I truly was never jealous just reactive to what he was "bragging" about.  What a trap.    For 5 1/2 years, over and over again.

[Moonie75]

LilMiss,

Basically, they project their inappropriate activity with people (one or more) onto you & accuse you of it. They see you interact with another person & straight off the bat (founded or not) assume you are upto what they're doing when they interact with another party.

Then, they use your 'behavior' (which they've projected onto you) to justify their own, convince themselves that you are not trust worthy, thus fueling their race to find another attachment.

Then when they leave it's because you broke the relationship, they had no choice but to leave. They are the victim!

[arn131arn]

I knew that she was Triangulation with other moms at the playgorund.  One in particular was going through an ugly divorce and cheated on her uhsband.  I knew they would go out on the weekends and drink while I was at work.  I told her I didn't like the realtionship and she turned it around on me because I was being too controlling.  She also would ask "What?  i can't have male friends?"  uuuuum no! NOt when I've never met them or don't know a thing about them.

In the states if you get arrested for DV you are by law seperated for a month, the second time 6 months.  Well, each time I was arrested I let her stay in MY home through the 1 month (1st time) and 6 moths (2nd time)... . This only goes to show MY PART in this relationship... . She was calling the cops and I truly believe NOW she needed another split, and I was ONLY enabling or rewarding her behavior for letting her stay there.  God, it made me sick just writing that... .

[Iwalk-Heruns]

Geeeez, she really did that arn?  What a complete f$%ked up setup!  If it makes you feel better my frontal lobe has been exploding evah sense I first heard of BPD.

Do you guys think that because I never snooped on him (believe me had plenty of opportunities, but it's not my thing) that may be the reason he just started telling me stuff like it was no big deal?  I guess he had to in order to get some kind of a reaction from me in order to complete the invent/create, rage, devalue, abandon, discard process?



Moonie, what do you mean by the invent/create it?  The fabrications?  The twisting of facts?  One of his biggest complaints about me was my so called "jealousy", yet I truly was never jealous just reactive to what he was "bragging" about.  What a trap.   For 5 1/2 years, over and over again.

LMS,

Yes I believe this is part of it too. I would add that they bring up other people for a couple other reasons I have found:

1 to test you to see how far they can push your boundaries and how much they can get away with or how trusting we are.

2. I think some get a kick out of being able to almost flaunt something in front of you. My ex on the night he flipped out and discarded me was one minute telling me how much he loved me and how he was a little jealous of some guy who we knew who came to look at my air conditioner that day. After I insisted there was nothing to worry about he started showing me a picture of some woman at work and when I really wasn't interested in seeing it he kept pushing it on me. Well turns put he was cheating on me with her. Sick! He just wanted to rub my nose in it and then tell me he dumped me because I'm insecure and jealous. It's was a game to him. He baited me into a fight in order to dump me. I don't think he was even jealous of that guy. He just brought that up because it would be a good Segway into showing me a picture of this chick! I look back and wonder how long he was planning his break!

[LilMissSunshine]

A person in a relationship that truly cared about you would not be texting, comunicating with the opposite sex, especially an ex. They would bend over backwards to not have even the look of impropriety so as not to lose you.

I would try to talk to him about this but he always blew me off.  Your right, I knew this deep down inside but ultimately I accepted it.

Basically, they project their inappropriate activity with people (one or more) onto you & accuse you of it. They see you interact with another person & straight off the bat (founded or not) assume you are upto what they're doing when they interact with another party.

Then, they use your 'behavior' (which they've projected onto you) to justify their own, convince themselves that you are not trust worthy, thus fueling their race to find another attachment.

Then when they leave it's because you broke the relationship, they had no choice but to leave. They are the victim.

So interesting Moonie.  He did do that all the time too.  My god, like I said earlier I didn't have much interaction with males.  Yet, like with Arn I would get accused of all sorts of bizarre hit_.

Thank you everyone for helping me understand this dynamic.  You've helped me clear some of the FOG from my head.  This was huge for me in terms of understanding "what exactly happened here?"  

[Starlight607]

All I can say LMS  and others this has been one of the best set of posts for me. So many common threads. My BPD bf has three friends, all female and exes. He has a poor relationship with his small family and what I always found strange absolutely no photographs in his house. He texts and emails female work colleagues, flirts outrageously and always said how they just keep contacting him! I totally realised also he keeps everyone of his female contacts. He never deletes any. One ex was just like your situation LMS, and I asked him to respect our engagement by breaking off contact. She was not even aware we were together. He recycled me with her 6 times over 3 years! Of course he did not tell her about me. There is no respect I have realised too and that hurt big time. I walked away 6 months ago. It has been hard and I have broken NC several times, especially when he has contacted me.

Your posts have now given me greater strength to go NC permanently as I see how I am kinda ok after all and even though he flipped everything to be able to blame me I am not totally to blame at all. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Changingman]

It's amazing the no friends side of the disorder. I remember thinking when I first read about the symptoms no she has some friends. I talked to the one friend I liked and thought that we had started a genuine platonic friendship. I said why didn't you warn me? Your one of her best friends! She said

I was always uncomfortable when she said that. I hardly know her, I've never had a real conversation with her ever. Just a college I went out for drinks with.

She had all her ex sex partners though ( boyfriends a bit too deep a term for them )

I was always uncomfortable about it and would turn up with her... . what is this s***, I never wanted to have a RS with them.

I'd put down boundaries and she would act shocked that I had such trust issues... . ha

Trust was used against us

I'll never know and don't want to know how many she was still sleeping with. My educated guess now is yes all of them, even ones I suspect she didn't.

Impulsive, I think she slept with guys she had just met at the pub once and did it there and then.

I'm not splitting her black, just seems at the end the revelation followed that kind of twisted logic.

She had slept with 55 men and 4 women ( one a prostitute ) when I met her, so she said.

I must have been mad to not realise what this meant, thought she wanted something else.

Ha wishful thinking!

No friends, because she causes chaos and stink everywhere she goes. Everyone either has a shallow non RS with her or if they get closer they get fried.