Do you think they remember what they say and do during a rage?

[nevermore]

My BPD mother claims not to remember anything.  I don't think I believe that but wonder what you think.  She has always behaved in such a way that when she stops being angry no one is ever supposed to mention it or react in any way.  She blows up and then we are supposed to walk away on egg shells and greet her with a big smile.  What has been your experience with this?

[isilme]

I think it's a big maybe.  I know my dad would disassociate badly when he was raging, to the point where he'd get what I thought of as "dead eyes" - no one was home back there when he was at the scariest, threatening murder-suicide to me and my mom, and then would seem to not be aware the next day.

My mom, on the other hand, I'd have to say was so good at pretending to herself she was never wrong, never abusive, etc., that I feel she 'might' remember, but would bury it so deep so as not to face the shame of being in the wrong.  Does that make sense?

(yes, I drew the lucky hand of two unstable, BPD parents  ).

So it's probably a big mix of really not being in control when raging, acting on pure emotion so there is little conscious thought to remember, and then not wanting to face up to what CAN be remembered.

[Deb]

I waiver on this. SOme parts of me think that when my dBPD sister is in a rage, she really does not know. On the other hand, I have seen her acknowlege what she has done as wrong and then go back and deny it happened. She is such a good kliar, that maybe when she realizes that it was "not ok", she lies that she did not do/say whaterver it was and then convinces herself it's true.

[BlueCat]

I don't know either. My mother claims to not remember anything that she did to us. She will admit to not being a good parent but only in a vague way. Whenever you bring up anything specific she "doesn't remember" it.

I think it's a mix. I do know that, as has already been said, they can dissociate. Non PD people can do it too under extreme stress, so of course PD people can too.

But I also think that sometimes my mother lies to herself until she believes it. I think maybe in the beginning she knows what happened but then she talks herself into it being something else.

I'm not really in her head of course. Maybe she remembers it all. But my gut says she really is telling the truth when she says she can't remember. Which doesn't let her off the hook for her abuse in my opinion, but realizing this it did make me understand there is no point in talking to her and strengthened my resolve to walk away.

[Sasha026]

My mother always knew what she said in a rage. She feigned innocence but she knew because later something would always slip out. Most of her rages were followed by weeks/months of silence. There is nothing like coming home from school to a quiet house where no one talks to you... .no one wants to know how your day has been and no one cares. You're on your own and invisible. I was being punished. When she finally decided that I was worthy of her company, she acted like nothing happened. When that happened, I was happy that the storm was over so I also behaved like nothing happened, until the next storm hit. I never quite understood what I did to provoke these tantrums. Probably nothing, but I knew that I had to ride them out. When I was a child, I would go to church and pray that God would make me a good girl so my mother wouldn't be angry at me anymore.

The problems only got worse after I was married. She would visit, invent an insult, then react. When our eyes would meet, her eyes would burn with hatred. When I made the mistake of asking her what was wrong, she would deny that she was angry... .but still wouldn't talk to me. She would bury herself in a book, walk around my house like a specter and separate herself from the rest of the family. She did this every time she came to my house creating arguments between me and my husband. He hated her visits. I always had hope because after these visits she would wait two weeks, then call me like nothing happened, yet again (wash, rinse, repeat - I was glad the storm was over and didn't want to provoke her). All I wanted was some semblance of normalcy but what I got was an insane dance.

Also, if she was provoked into answering why she was behaving in an angry way while at my house, she would dissociate into her "little girl" personality and talk like a small child using baby talk... .and yet I still asked her back to my home. I always had hope that something would change, but it never did.

I finally told her that I couldn't stand her visits anymore because of what she did. Her response? "What did I do? I didn't do anything. What did I say to make you angry?" How do you describe this type of behavior when you have no idea what was going on or why she was doing it... .it must have been my fault, yet again.

[Legacymaker]

Hi Nevermore,

I am new to these boards and just beginning to explore the topics.  I have posted more about my family dynamics on the New Members board and would still appreciate feedback.  My T has recently suggested that my mother is uBPD.  I am 50yrs old and had never been to counseling before last year.  Wish I had discovered these answers long before now, my life might have been a little more peaceful.  I found your post most interesting, since I just asked my husband this very question last night.  My mother has just ruined yet another Christmas with her raging.  In her latest rant she "took me down" again with her razor edged words.  She yelled at me for over an hour, then seemed to disassociate and started projecting at me. We haven't spoken since Dec 26th. 

Some of the things she said:

"your children would hate you if your husband were dead"  (I have worked really hard to have good relationships with all 3 of my sons,  she is very jealous of this.  Still this left me gutted and insecure because my brother and I are both disassociating from her... . maybe it is possible my children will do the same to me... . guilt)

"I will always be smarter than you"  (My mom is intelligent but she is very jealous of my degree, so I've been told this since I was a teen.)

I am in a higher social class than you (we have suspected that she has felt this way for sometime by the way she is treating my husband and I.  We make about the same income, but if she needs a platform, I am willing to give it)

"you always have to be the center of attention" (I do not even speak when my mother is near, if I do, she will interupt me and talk over me as if I am not in the room)  For example, this Christmas I had my sons new girlfriend here (I think this is actually what is triggering my mother)  This grandson is "her" baby so I expected my mom to be jealous of the new girl, instead, she monopolized her and was snake charming her through the day.   I don't know the new girlfriend very well, but every time I tried to talk to her, my mother would insult or contradict me.  I am anticipating that this girl is going to be my sons partner eventually, so it was important to me to begin to form a healthy bond with her.  I gave the girlfriend a gift that I had put a lot of time into choosing, something that I had hoped would be cherished and remembered as our first Christmas together.  As she opened the present, my mom jumped up on her provervial platform and proceeded to tell her that she had found it for her! (She just happened to be with me when I bought it)  She told her all the special reasons why it had been chosen and where she had gotten it.  I was absolutely speechless as I watched this unfold.  Of course I wasn't going to contradict her, but there she was grandstanding.  She got exactly what she wanted with the praise and accolades.  She received the thank you for it and everyone in the room was amazed by how thoughtful my mother had been... . sigh

These are just a few of the lovely comments that she made to me.  They don't include the 35 years of backtracking that she also did.  She keeps track of every supposed indescretion-I swear it is like a mental checklist that comes out with every argument. 

So, thinking about your question, I will ask another;

If they can remember so much "history" about you, how is it possible that they can never seem to recall the vicious things they have said?  This is what makes it challenging for me to believe that it is not concious.

My T suggested that it is just too painful for them to remember and acknowlege what they do.  It would destroy most of them if they really had to understand and be held accountable for how much destruction they are causing.  They are damaged people, but then so are we.

[Moonbeam77]

My BPD mother claims not to remember anything.  I don't think I believe that but wonder what you think.  She has always behaved in such a way that when she stops being angry no one is ever supposed to mention it or react in any way.  She blows up and then we are supposed to walk away on egg shells and greet her with a big smile.  What has been your experience with this?

This is the exact issue I have been dealing with the past 2-3 years since my uNPD father started dating a uBPD woman.  He often would call and rage for an hour on the phone about 2 weeks before a family event.  When the event would arrive he would walk over give me a one arm hug and say "I love you."  My siblings and I would not dare bring up how nasty he was 2 weeks ago so the current moment wouldn't be ruined.  I don't think he understands how painful it is to listen to the rage.  As time has gone on, he now rages about how he is not included in family events anymore.  My sister has gone NC, I'm VLC, and my brother is LC.  A week before Christmas he laid into my brother, the only one who calls him anymore, about me and my sister's bad behavior (the low/no contact).  I think he sees absolutely no correlation with his own behavior and our reaction of reducing contact.  I feel it's as if he has his hands around our throats shaking us saying "why don't you love me or want to be with me." 

My nephew is getting baptized on Sunday so I will see him and his fiancée then.  I'm going to try to do the "medium chill".  I don't know what to do besides continuing LVC.  Any suggestions would be appreciated on how best to get through this family event and/or deal with rages and amnesia afterwards. 

[Eureka1]

Welcome Legacymaker.

I am sorry that your holiday was ruined by your Mom.  I think they dissociate to some degree but it seems like they can remember what they want too. 

I have gone almost NC with my uBPD sister.  I only have to see her one more time when we finish dividing Mom's property (A 3rd party will be present). 

I have experienced being interrupted and talked down to and it has made me angry and also have a lack of self confidence. 

I guess the healing from the rages and resenting how our lives were damaged by our BPD relatives is a life long process.

Eureka

[Legacymaker]

Eureka,

You mention a 3rd party being present.  One of the things I said to my mother was "that I would no longer talk to her without having our husbands present".  She only attacks me when we are alone.  Is this a strategy that others employ?

[Marcia]

Neither my sister or I will spend one minute alone with my mother... . too toxic!

[lost and found]

I think they do remember. My BPD mom and npd dad both would claim to not remember hurtful things that they said, but I think its a way of evading responsibility. How can you stay mad if they cant even remember what happened?

I think they learn how to distract and cover up and forgetting is an easy way to do this. I once was discussing a situation with my mom, and she kept pulling up different excuses out of thin air, including not remembering. I finally told her I thought she was going to keep saying random things until I gave up and went away. Then she was speechless! "uh, ummm, er, well... . " She was caught and she knew it. No, she never owned up to what we were discussing.

Legacymker, I read your other post and our moms sound similar. My mom would become extremely jealous and would remind my sister and I that she had been prettier, more talented, smarter, etc. I think she felt so lousy about herself that she wanted to take others down a notch. She couldnt stand to see other people happy. If you felt lousy too than its even. Legacymaker didn't you say that you had recently celebrated an anniversary [congratulations, by the way]? And she hated seeing the happy messages on facebook? Raining on other people's parades. It hurts though - your mom is suppossed to be happy for you.   

[Sister62]

I have heard that having someone else present is a good idea for the reasons you stated. We recently decided that we couldn't talk to our brother without someone else present to help keep the conversation focused and encourage him not to spiral into negativity. Good luck!

[Sister62]

Legacymaker,

I'm SO sorry for what you have experienced. Wow. That's really intense. It's such a challenge when so much is up to us, the non-BPDs - to swallow our pride, to let the negative stuff flow through us and not take it personally, to choose the right way to say things and when to say them. I really appreciated the advice in some of the books about taking care of ourselves first so I hope you can do that!

[momtara]

Well, my exH often had a different take on what he said/did, because he (like many) had trouble coping with his bad behavior, which was so different from his normal self.  I think they DO remember on one level, but can't cope with it so they twist it in their minds.  After I left him, he confessed to all these things he said and did, things he had lied about.  Soo they know, but can't come to terms with it.  And sometimes remember some of it wrong at first.

[blake1974]

I have heard that having someone else present is a good idea for the reasons you stated. We recently decided that we couldn't talk to our brother without someone else present to help keep the conversation focused and encourage him not to spiral into negativity. Good luck!

This is something I need to do. How do you initiate this? Do you tell them you will not be alone with them or do you just start doing it? I know my mom would get very suspicious and paranoid if I just started, but telling her the reason would throw her into a rage.

[Legacymaker]

One of my safety nets was to make sure to go to bed at the same time as my husband. 

When my mother visited, she would want me to stay up with her.  She doesn't go to bed until about 2am-her brain is so active that she can't sleep without use of Ambien.   So even though I knew I would end up feeling bad, I stayed up with her.  I swear the woman would wait about 30 minutes, until she knew everyone in the house would be asleep, she would then start throwing out what I call "fish hooks"... . things that aggrevate me.  She would condemn my kids, my husband, me etc.  Once I would take the bait, all hell would break lose. We would end up fighting or I would end up defeated, sometimes both.

So my husband suggested that I control it by going to bed at the same time as he did.  That seemed to easy, but I started and low and behold, the problem was solved.

This year she noticed that everyone kept leaving the room at the same time that her husband went to bed and called us all on it.  My safety net started to unravel, because my answer seemed lame even to me (I just told her I am getting to old to stay up late).

My mother needed a new target, so she started singling out my adult children (I have 3). They are all boys and often playfully aggrevate each other when they are together.  They are all adults (26, 24 and 21) and live independently.  Generally they get along well. They were staying the night over Christmas. My mother favors the oldest son.  She had made him stay up with her the night before.  I had heard part of their conversation.  My mother was being negative towards my middle son, the oldest was taking the bait.  I warned him that it wasn't okay to speak negatively about his brother, unless his brother could defend himself.  (Really it was meant as a warning to my mother, but I had to deliver it through my son).  I went to bed.  The next day, there had been some serious arguing going on between the boys, which is not normal for them.  I pulled each one aside and confronted why they were being so hostile to each other.  My mother usually singles out the middle child and this year had been no exception, she had been insulting him for a couple of days.  Usually he has several defense measures that he employs against her attacks, but he had finally broken and was in tears (this is not normal for him).  When I got to the bottom of it, I realized that my mother had been pitting them against each other with almost every conversation.  Naturally they began confronting each other trying to defend themselves against these unknown accusations. Hearing my children threaten to not come home for Christmas because it is no longer a safe environment is heartbreaking for me.  I am coming across as controlling because I am having to "manage" all the conversations.  My kids love their grandmother and I don't want to change that, but I can't let the bullying and negativity continue to undermine my immediate family. 

After another nasty rage by my mother, she and her husband left early from our holidays.  They did say goodbye to our kids, but I am currently on NC for the past 17 days.  I do not want to come between my kids and their relationships, but I can't let this continue.  I do not know how to approach teaching my children to put up their own safety nets.  I do not know how I want to proceed with future holidays and contact.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[DreamFlyer99]

I've lived with that for years, the one minute I'm getting the full on "you're so self centered blah blah blah!" and then the next day I'm shaking my head in disbelief because he (my uBPDh) is acting like nothing ever happened!

I did something a couple of days ago that made me proud of myself. He dysregulated all over me after I'd told him I don't like when they (family members) dump stuff on the counter and leave it for me to deal with. I was getting the "center of the world" speech one minute, and then he's turning back to the tv like nothing ever happened. I got up to do something else (not wanting to be there with him after that!) and he said "what are you doing now?" I said "You can't just talk to me like that and then act like everything is just fine."

He decided to take himself off to bed early, and I didn't interfere.

Our boundaries, especially when we are just learning to actually set them, WILL cause waves, sometimes of the tsunami type. But we have to be willing to just live those boundaries quietly and firmly, because for most of us, our pwBPD would just blow up if we tried to explain those boundaries.

I'm a talker, and I'm somebody who really wants to understand what's behind someone else's actions. My T has worked hard with me to understand that the best thing is to realize that I need to choose my boundaries based on what I need, and then just uphold them, live them out. Neutral tone is best. Less inflammatory.

I guess what I'm saying is, whether or not they remember and know what they've done, and whether or not they're willing to own up to what they've done, we still need to think about self-care as we set up the boundaries around what we allow to be done to us or not. Holidays seem to be great trigger times (yay) and my T has me asking myself ahead of time, "what do I need to be prepared for?" so I can have my healthy boundaries at the ready.

I know when my uBPD/NPD mother was alive, we had gotten to the point that we no longer stayed with her when we visited, but got a hotel room. I think if it was my mother coming to my place I would get her a room for the time. We don't have to explain everything to them either, about the why. We can say "alright, let's take Grandma back to her hotel for the night and get some sleep" without answering a million whys. It takes a heck of a lot of practice!

WHY oh WHY does it have to be holidays? For years I would give into my uBPDh's blue moods at Christmas and give him one of his presents early! All I was doing was keeping him in that childlike state of unhealthy "being taken care of" instead of letting him work through his own issues around the holidays. My enabling made the holidays harder on all of us.

[Pilpel]

I don't think my uBPD sil really gets how crazy and scary she is when she rages.  I think she sees herself as the most emotionally needy, as #1 victim.  She perceives past emotionally charged experiences with huge blind spots.  For instance there was an episode years ago where she, my brother and my parents were all getting together with some other people for Bible studies.  What I heard from everyone I know who attended, she was outright verbally abusive to my mom, treating her like a dog, raging at her for little things in front of everyone.  My brother and my dad didn't step in on my mom's behalf, so another couple did.  They just couldn't stand by and not do or say something.  Their confrontation was a "trigger" that SHE wanted an apology for.  I had a relationship with this couple.  And when I talked to my brother, I advised him to let it go, to not persue and apology for their confrontation.  Years later, SIL brought this up. Over time she had completely twisted facts around, saying that my purpose was to convince my brother to divorce her. 

It's interesting, because if I had treated my MIL so badly, I would consider it justified if her kids gave me a piece of their mind.  But rather than be grateful that I didn't personally rip her a new one, she finds fault in me just for giving my opinion to my brother that they back off harrassing the couple for an apology.   

[StarStruck]

This is a good question... .

I think that mine could definitely remember but after would justify her behavior in some way to herself... therefore she doesn't put in into the... . 'I've just been a crap parent' box. So then in time forgets it.

I have known her to remember some incidents, when prompted... . but then carries on with a fixed bemused look on her face then will try and change the subject somehow.

My brother once reminded her on something she did 8ish yrs after the incident and she actually laughed.

God just that one case there puts the creeps up me, really does. Laughing at something nasty she'd done. That's unreal to me, if I had done that I'd be mortified.

I've also been on the receiving end in bad relationships (when all sense leaves their eyes... . it's like they are not connected to the grid, blank) & they did remember.

Whereas my Mom would always look like her brain was connected... . she was an angry, connected presence when flipping out. Not like like spirit had left her body. I remember my moms angry face quite well; lots of teeth clenching, eyes on fire.

[Sitara]

I think my mom sometimes did and sometimes didn't.  But she justified the things she said because, "I'm mad and I didn't actually mean the things I said so why aren't you okay with that?"

[rscjsc]

I've so often wondered the very same thing. I think my uBPD sister does but only in the broadest sense. She knows she was angry and raging but she's so irrational I doubt she remembers the specifics of the things she said and did. Also, her mind always manages to twist things around so that whatever she said and/or did it was completely justified based on whatever perceived slight or injustice she perceives to have experienced.

[dilburnt]

This is something I have often wondered about, and have been skeptical of.  My MIL is dxBPD, and while she has not 'raged' with me, as such, she raged with my DH when he was a child.  Nowadays, her rages are 'inward'... . she has these episodes where she is seething angry, and instead of being vocal and violent outward, she pulls completely inward and gives everyone constant low-grade nastiness and the most complete silent treatment imaginable... . SASHA026 described it perfectly... .

But here's the thing... . the memory problems seem to extend far beyond just the 'episodes' of 'bad behavior'.  She has no memory (or claims no memory) of many other events and circumstances... . for example, she will compliment me on a sweater or scarf... . having completely forgotten that it was her who gave it to me.  She doesn't remember that when our oldest was an infant, she spent 3-4 months of the year living with us.  She just went home after spending a month with us and was angry at my DH for not spending time with her... . having no memory that the only days off he took during her visit were spent with her... . and of course, the many many visits that have ended badly with her not talking to anyone for a week (the spector, hiding in her room that SASHA described... . )... . no memory at ALL.

So I wonder... . does the pwBPD 'edit' the stories they tell themselves to justify their current opinion of the target nonBPD?  Do they remember but deny?  Or is disassociation a bigger part of the disorder than we might think?  Do they really 'zap' it (that's the term we use... . she just 'zaps' things... . for her they really did not happen).

I would really be interested in hearing from one of the moderators about disassociation among BPDs... . any good resources to suggest?

To all who have posted with their stories of growing up with BPD mothers, my heart goes out to you.  Thank you for sharing... . my relatively short experience with a BPD MIL has been, for me, breathtakingly hurtful, but simply can't compare.  Your generosity in sharing your experience has deepened my compassion and understanding for my DH... . thank you 

[letmeout]

I think it is called selective memory. It never failed to amaze me when a rage would cause amnesia and the incident would be completely blocked out. But at other times, he would remember and claim he was justified for raging.

[Sitara]

She has no memory (or claims no memory) of many other events and circumstances.

Mine does too, but she tends to forget the good things I do rather than the things she said while raging.  I was accused of never going to their house, and when I reminded them that I was over every other weekend for 7 or 8 months, she couldn't remember.  Worse was that she acted like it couldn't possibly be true just because she didn't remember.

So I wonder... . does the pwBPD 'edit' the stories they tell themselves to justify their current opinion of the target nonBPD?

I really do feel this is the case because she would sometimes have the habit of changing her story halfway through an argument to support her side.

[dilburnt]

Mine does too, but she tends to forget the good things I do rather than the things she said while raging.

Same here!

Worse was that she acted like it couldn't possibly be true just because she didn't remember.

Also very much the case with my MIL.  She will get into a big, heated argument denying that things ever happened... . and not just a small comment, but literally situations that unfolded over several days to a week (or even longer) at a time.  It's like Swiss cheese - holes of all sizes that run through every aspect of her memory.

[Tayto]

We have a black sense of humour in our family, we say when our mother passes on we will write on her headstone

" I did not"

anytime you say to her, you done this she replies with

I did not

Never accepting any blame, and gets grand with

im your mother you don't talk to me with no respect.

You dont gain respect from being a mother, you gain it from giving respect. Don't be so rude in the future as it doesn't suit you.

mind you,  im well able for my mother so she does not bother me anymore.

I think they dont like to see themselves as they knoe they are nasty and that's alot of pain to look at.