Second post: Not sure what to think

[JMS]

After reading up on personality disorders, etc, thinking about the various lies, excuses, etc., the way that she lied to her previous boyfriends, etc, I got a weird feeling in my gut.

I knew that it was largely me, and I debated whether to say anything to my wife.

I finally did on Saturday, I didn't go out and accuse her of cheating on me, but after asking her a few questions on Friday and Saturday morning, I got the feeling that she was hiding something.

So, late Saturday morning, I told her that I had a weird feeling, that I had caught in various lies, exaggerations and different excuses for the same things over the years and I just wanted to know that she had been faithful to me.

She cried a little for about thirty seconds, asked me why I would even think that way, then started telling me about how she's been stressed out, this happened, that happened, etc.

I told her I just had a weird feeling for some reason and I just wanted to be sure and that I was being open with her.

She insisted that she had never done anything, that she never would, etc.

She then started saying I was crazy, I was a fruitcake, started laughing about it and just generally seemed like she was having a good time with it.  In a way, it almost seemed like she was gloating.  For the rest of the afternoon, every once in a while when I would walk by her, she would whisper "suspicious" and laugh.

Then I noticed that if I went somewhere else in the house or yard without telling her, she would show up a few minutes later, "I was looking for you."

I deliberately went out in the front yard for a few minutes while she was in the backyard, and sure enough, she came looking for me.

Later that night, I was in the kitchen and had some wine and was making myself a drink and she came out from the bedroom, obviously angry.  She told how one of my old friends had said that I was wild when I drank, then started bugging me about when we had broken up, "You were trying to pick up girls."  I reminded her that she had found herself a boyfriend pretty quick and she again said "You were trying to pick up girls."

I mentioned the boyfriend again and she "You broke up with me" and I said "Yes, and we were free to see whoever we wanted."

"You broke up with me."  This went on for a few minutes, then the part that has me wondrering happened:

Wife: "Aren't you supposed to go on orders for a week and then three weeks?"

Me: "Yes, but we're not sure if we will."

Wife: "Well, I want you to go now."

Me: "Why do you want me to go?"

Wife: "The house will be quiet, I won't have to deal with you."

Me: "Why do you want me to go now?"

My wife got quiet, she stared at me with a blank expression on her face, but I could see the anger in her eyes and she didn't say anything.

Me: "Oh, so this how you get back at me, huh?"

Wife:  :)oesn't say a word, her eyes shift back and forth, then stares at me again.

Me: "So, this is what you do when you're really mad at me?"

Wife:  :)oesn't say a word, her eyes shift back and forth, then stares at me again.

Me: "You want me to go so I'm not in the way."

Wife:  :)oesn't say a word, her eyes shift back and forth, then stares at me again.

Me: "You don't want me around so I can't interfere."

Wife:  :)oesn't say a word, her eyes shift back and forth, then stares at me again.

After that, she went to bed.

The next day, we talked about it, she told me she loved me (she's been saying it frequently since then), that she couldn't understand why I would even think that she would do anything.

I reminded her that she had lied to her other boyfriends, but she said "That was different."  I also told her that the way she behaved the day before isn't how a guy would expect his wife to respond and so didn't instill a lot of confidence.

She said that she thought it was perfectly normal and claimed she didn't know what I meant about getting back at me.

To my wife's credit, she, at her insistence, spends a lot of time with me, she goes to drills with me, we go everywhere together, so we only end up apart a couple of times a year.

Even when I'm gone, she expects to be able to call me and talk to me whenever she wants and, with a couple of exceptions, I've always been able to get ahold of her when I called her.  Of course, her exboyfriends called her when she was with me and she lied about who she was with and where she was, so... .

So, I don't think she would be cheating on me regularly.  

She has this idea in her head of a perfect family, she wants to project that picture to everyone else, she wants to look like the perfect wife, the perfect mother, I'm the perfect husband, etc.

She's also close with her family, she's an only child and she talks to her mom and dad daily (her parents are invovled in our life, in making decisions, etc.) and she has aunts that she also regularly talks with.

I know that if she did get caught cheating, her family would pretty much disown her.

So, she's got some strong incentives to not do anything, but the only question in my mind is when I'm gone and particularly, when she's mad at me, and she would be reasonably sure that she wasn't going to get caught.

When we were broken up, she told me that she had slept with her new boyfriend for the first time because she had seen my at a club with some of my friends having a good time without her and that made her so mad that she went home with the guy that night and slept with him.

We live in a small town now, so if she has done or does do anything, somebody will see her sooner or later and word will eventually get around to somebody I know.


So, it ate at me this weekend, after talking with the therapist yesterday, I feel better and I'm in the "trust but verify" mode at this point.

If anybody reads anything in this that they've been through before, I'd be interested to hear it, how you dealt with it, etc.

I'd also like some insight from those that have caught their SOs cheating on how to or not to deal with it.

I told her this weekend that if she ever has done anything and she tells me about it, we can work on things, but if I ever found out from somebody else or caught her,  everybody we know would know about it.

I also told her that I would expect her to be the same way with me.

Thanks for listening.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[JMS]

Quick update, I just found out that my wife has been texting her girlfriends from work and deleting the texts.

The texts she sends to me, her mom and dad and the free carrier texts we she got are all there, all of the texts from her friends are gone.

She never used to text much at all, but she started texting a lot and talking to her friends from work (mostly females, but a couple of guys occasionally) a lot since our son died.

I knew that she communicated with them more since then, she they showed a lot of support for her, but I didn't know how much she was texting and talking with them.

[Love Is Not Enough]

When we were broken up, she told me that she had slept with her new boyfriend for the first time because she had seen my at a club with some of my friends having a good time without her and that made her so mad that she went home with the guy that night and slept with him.

Were you even with a new woman when you were there? Either way your experience shows how overboard they can go sometimes.

My gf went to visit her ex that she had been broken up with for over seven years the last time I went out of town. I know they did not do anything, but her just communicating at all with this guy is a deal breaker for me. He is NPD and I believe really "activated" her disorder. If even half the things she told me is true about the abuse then it was pretty bad. I still feel he has some control over her and I was very upset when I found out. Still am over a year later. I stopped seeing her for a month and set a firm boundary that she not contact him again. I don't know if she has crossed it or not. I have been working on my own issues in that department.

Which brings me to my next point. You are on a very slippery slope with looking at her text messages. Spying is an addiction and not a fun one. Mine started when my ex wife cheated on me and then I started doing it again the first inkling I had that my current gf was talking to her ex. I have utilized almost every tool that exists to find out information. The paranoia grows and it is an endless downward spiral. You can never get enough information and you waste so much time analyzing it. All of this will literally drive you insane. Then it creates many problems when you get caught.

Now I know what you are thinking, so how do I find out if she is cheating on me if I don't look for clues? That is a great question and that is a work in progress for me. I have forced myself to stop 95% of my spying while at the same time detaching from her. By not investing so much in her emotionally I am protecting myself from any fallout. I should be making that emotional investment in myself. I think that is part of becoming less codependent. I tell myself that no matter what happens I will be fine and that I am a worthwhile guy that any woman would be lucky to have. Of course I have to conduct myself in this way if I am to believe this! So spying is not something that is part of a healthy relationship and most women would frown upon it. I guess you would have wait until something happened that was very obvious. Is that what "normal" people do? I don't know, maybe someone else can enlighten us on this.

I hope I am making any sense here. I haven't put all of this together until now. Like I said, it is something I struggle with everyday. I assume she is still communicating with her ex somehow. I dont care anymore. If it makes her happy to be brainwashed about religion by some NPD pedophile psychopath, then good luck to her. Phew. Detect any aggression there?

So I guess the key is CONFIDENCE in yourself?

[JMS]

When we were broken up, she told me that she had slept with her new boyfriend for the first time because she had seen my at a club with some of my friends having a good time without her and that made her so mad that she went home with the guy that night and slept with him.

Were you even with a new woman when you were there? Either way your experience shows how overboard they can go sometimes.

My gf went to visit her ex that she had been broken up with for over seven years the last time I went out of town. I know they did not do anything, but her just communicating at all with this guy is a deal breaker for me. He is NPD and I believe really "activated" her disorder. If even half the things she told me is true about the abuse then it was pretty bad. I still feel he has some control over her and I was very upset when I found out. Still am over a year later. I stopped seeing her for a month and set a firm boundary that she not contact him again. I don't know if she has crossed it or not. I have been working on my own issues in that department.

Which brings me to my next point. You are on a very slippery slope with looking at her text messages. Spying is an addiction and not a fun one. Mine started when my ex wife cheated on me and then I started doing it again the first inkling I had that my current gf was talking to her ex. I have utilized almost every tool that exists to find out information. The paranoia grows and it is an endless downward spiral. You can never get enough information and you waste so much time analyzing it. All of this will literally drive you insane. Then it creates many problems when you get caught.

Now I know what you are thinking, so how do I find out if she is cheating on me if I don't look for clues? That is a great question and that is a work in progress for me. I have forced myself to stop 95% of my spying while at the same time detaching from her. By not investing so much in her emotionally I am protecting myself from any fallout. I should be making that emotional investment in myself. I think that is part of becoming less codependent. I tell myself that no matter what happens I will be fine and that I am a worthwhile guy that any woman would be lucky to have. Of course I have to conduct myself in this way if I am to believe this! So spying is not something that is part of a healthy relationship and most women would frown upon it. I guess you would have wait until something happened that was very obvious. Is that what "normal" people do? I don't know, maybe someone else can enlighten us on this.

I hope I am making any sense here. I haven't put all of this together until now. Like I said, it is something I struggle with everyday. I assume she is still communicating with her ex somehow. I dont care anymore. If it makes her happy to be brainwashed about religion by some NPD pedophile psychopath, then good luck to her. Phew. Detect any aggression there?

So I guess the key is CONFIDENCE in yourself?

I appreciate the comments and I share your concern about the spying.  Up until now, the thought never crossed my mind.

I don't know what the text messages are, I only know from the phone company logs that they were sent.  I've known for a long time that she texts with her friends, she's told me herself and even shown me some if they had something funny to say, so it's not like she needs to hide it from me.

So, that she would delete only those messages is odd.

I'm not going to allow myself to get consumed by it, but knowing that she lied to other people in the past, that she's lied to me about things before and now knowing that it's a key trait of the disorder, I need to be able to give myself some peace of mind that she's not lying to me about something like this.

I just read an article about NPD where the author said that she's had NPD patients who are amazingly loyal to their spouses, wrap their entire existence around their spouse and are very sensitive to the love and approval of their spouses.

My wife exhibits that kind of devotion to me, and with the potential shame that would come with being caught, so that gives me some comfort that I don't really need to worry.

That said, knowing that I am dealing with a person who requires a lot of attention and at the same time is prone to not being rational, I guess the confidence that I need is that I can trust her on this issue.

If she needs to lie about little stuff because that's what she needs to do to make herself feel better and protect herself to get by, I don't like it, but I can deal with it.  I will stay with her and try and keep our family together for the sake of our child and in the hopes that she might get some therapy.

But, if she needs to cheat to get by, I will end the marriage, I won't put my child or myself through that.

[JMS]

And, no, I wasn't even with another woman when she saw me.  I was just there with some friends.

She said that the fact that I was out having fun without her made her angry.  I never did meet anybody before we got back together, but if this comes up, she still (including this weekend) gets extremely angry at me because I was even trying to meet somebody else.  The fact that she found herself a new boyfriend within a week and she apparently can't grasp the hypocrisy of what she's saying.

That's what has me the most concerned, when I asked her why she wanted me to go, I got the strong impression that I had caught her in the act of planning to go find somebody. 

But, I don't know if it was that or she was just angry at me for even wondering if she had been faithful. 

So... .

[Love Is Not Enough]

And, no, I wasn't even with another woman when she saw me.  I was just there with some friends.

She said that the fact that I was out having fun without her made her angry.  I never did meet anybody before we got back together, but if this comes up, she still (including this weekend) gets extremely angry at me because I was even trying to meet somebody else.  The fact that she found herself a new boyfriend within a week and she apparently can't grasp the hypocrisy of what she's saying.

That's what has me the most concerned, when I asked her why she wanted me to go, I got the strong impression that I had caught her in the act of planning to go find somebody. 

But, I don't know if it was that or she was just angry at me for even wondering if she had been faithful. 

So... .

Oh the impulsiveness... .

And the hypocrisy... .

So very frustrating to say the least.

Those nagging feelings are the worst. My anxiety goes through the roof as the departure date gets closer. At the moment I don't even feel comfortable leaving her alone. I am going to have to at some point.

I wish I had more for you. I hate when they drive you crazy chasing your own tail. Nothing with them is ever straight forward or simple. I'm so stuck in my routine I am already thinking of suggesting things for you to check on her while you are gone. It really becomes an addiction.

Just do what you know is right and if you are replaced then you will know you did your best. You can't control her. I feel for you having a child in this situation though. It is really hard.

My gf is similar in her devotion, but I just can never overlook the impulsiveness. She has never given me a straight forward answer why she went to see her ex. It has always been "I think" or "I'm not sure". Trust may just be a mirage in a rs with a pwBPD.

[waverider]

Is the real issue the actuality of cheating or is it the living with constant suspicion and distrust that brings you here?

You can get caught up in playing hide and seek, followed by tit for tat. This can screw with your life without ever having proof of anything.

The untangible can be more destructive than the tangible.

Is there a resolution to this that doesn't entail you finding out the answer you dont want in order to resolve the issue?

The more suspicion and lack of trust the more it makes her the victim, in her eyes, and fuels her justification to look elsewhere for a rescuer. It is a very hard cycle to break, how can you step outside of this process?

Fear of being caught doing anything will not stop a pwBPD, they act on impulse then worry about covering up afterwards. Stopping the impulse is about the only way to avoid inappropriate behavior of any form.

[JMS]

Is the real issue the actuality of cheating or is it the living with constant suspicion and distrust that brings you here?

You can get caught up in playing hide and seek, followed by tit for tat. This can screw with your life without ever having proof of anything.

The untangible can be more destructive than the tangible.

Is there a resolution to this that doesn't entail you finding out the answer you dont want in order to resolve the issue?

The more suspicion and lack of trust the more it makes her the victim, in her eyes, and fuels her justification to look elsewhere for a rescuer. It is a very hard cycle to break, how can you step outside of this process?

Fear of being caught doing anything will not stop a pwBPD, they act on impulse then worry about covering up afterwards. Stopping the impulse is about the only way to avoid inappropriate behavior of any form.

It's the upheaval of my entire life.  I always thought I could trust my wife, I would catch her telling a lie once in a while, usually when she was angry, and I always chalked it up to her being angry.  She frequently makes up different excuses for why she will or won't do things, I always chalked those up to her just being a pain in the butt.

I always figured she knew it was wrong when she did it and knew better than to tell me any serious lies, I always told myself that she couldnt possibly not know it was wrong. 

The fact that all her behaviors point to NPD is like getting hit with a ton of bricks.  The concept that she may very well not know or care that it's wrong and could have been lying to me for the past 13 years is a lot to take.

Her deleting the text messages from her coworkers show she's hiding something.  It could be nothing, she could be completely faithful to me, but how do I know?

I feel like I'm trapped.  It's obvious that she's not going to tell me anything and without any proof, as you said, she'll make me out to look like I'm crazy or something.

So, what do I do from here? 

As you said, if I get into tracking what she's doing, I risk getting sucked into into driving myself crazy.

If I don't, then I just have to hope that she's not doing anything and if she is, hope that someday, she slips up and I can catch her.

I certainly don't want to throw my marriage away over nothing, I do love her and I'm willing to put up with the NPD as long as she's faithful to me.  I've put up with it for 13 years now and knowing that she probably has it means that at least I can do my best to manage our relationship.

At this point, I just feel stuck.

[MissyM]

Well, I have a lot of experience with a dBPDh that cheats.  He is supposed to be in recovery for sex addiction but does the bare minimum and relapses a lot.  I can tell you the spying is exhausting.  I hadn't done it in a long time but my dBPDh has been off of his recovery program and i have done some spying lately.  It is just hurting myself, at some point.  If I get a gut feeling, looking to verify it is o.k.  Once I have seen proof, I don't need to keep looking.

In your case the only thing I would say, is  just take notice.  If there are several red flags, then look.  There are ways to look at deleted text messages but don't do it unless you see some indicators of infidelity.  Besides her accusing you of cheating, which is a red flag for me, I didn't really see  you express any.  You are able to get hold of her when you call, she is extremely devoted to you, etc.  So don't drive yourself crazy spying, if there isn't real reason to do it. 

[elemental]

You lost a child. I am so sorry, how devastating an event. 

She is grieving? What about you?


You sound like you are really trying to reason out that if she were cheating, everyone would know it and condemn her, and you aren't seeing this happen.


BPD will feel rejected, not be able to handle the feeling of a loss of control over what the rejection ( assumed by her to be true and is scared of what it implies ) and end up rejecting back or bolting off leaving before they can be left.

She may have felt rejected and thinking to her self that people who think their partner is cheating, often end the relationship. If she isn't cheating, how could she even prove it, except to live under that cloud and carry on her usual life ad nauseum.

If she is cheating, probably she is holding it underground enough that no one has caught her out. If she is, it's just a matter of time.

Her mockery to you is not very smart, at the same time, it is childlike and children are often very mean.

NPD is a very serious disorder.

What would you like to see happen here? For example, what would alleviate your worry?

And trying to spy on someone who may be cheating takes you right down the rabbit hole. I have done it until I am so confused, frustrated and angry... and sadly reacted on nothing at times. Other times, it was glaringly obvious that I was openly being cheated on and being gaslighted and threatened into silence by him saying he cannot stay in a relationship where he is not trusted.

No. Actually if you cannot trust, and I mean YOU or ME, and it becomes so crazy making that it is damaging to US, then WE cannot stay in a relationship with someone who cannot be trusted or who we feel we cannot trust.

It ends badly however you look at it. Examine your own self, ask what your own limitations and boundries are, then enforce them, because those boundries protect your own values and how you live your own life.

[an0ught]

Hi JMS,

could be that she is cheating? Maybe. Could be that she is having an emotional affair? Maybe.

This can be said for almost any relationship. It can always happen. Of course you need to keep your eyes open but you can't let it drive yourself crazy. There is plenty of odd embarrassing dysfunctional and thus often hidden behavior to trigger a wild goose chases all day.

I just read an article about NPD where the author said that she's had NPD patients who are amazingly loyal to their spouses, wrap their entire existence around their spouse and are very sensitive to the love and approval of their spouses.

You have a relationship now for 17 years and with that a strong connection with your wife and the other way round too. PwBPD way of forming attachments may often be dysfunctional (either not attaching or very strong and long lasting attaching). Leaving is not easy after a long time as the dramas on the leaving board show. So don't panic and transfer your fears on to your wife. While attachment is long lasting fear of abandonment can develop in break up dynamic - leave before being left. Speaking of abandonment - telling the wife that you never leave her would be invalidating her fear of abandonment and could making it worse.

A problem with spying is that it is overstepping boundaries. Getting even further involved in what is on the other side and may need to private. Generally BPD/co-dependent relationships are too enmeshed and there are too few boundaries. Then respect is lost. Then understanding of self and other is lost. Then problems start.

Getting back mutual respect is needed to restore the relationship. That requires boundaries and acceptance of the situation and emotions of the other side.