When will the anger at the ex end?

[SoWhat]

I've been with my uBPD fiance for just about 4 years now. We've been engaged for nearly a year and are due to be married in a month.

When she rages, she often turns the conversation towards my ex-girlfriend, who she never met, and who she knows I haven't seen in 4 years. In fact, the rages are often directed at the beginning of that relationship - from 6 years ago! And these are just the most intense, hateful outbursts you can imagine. She's incredibly insecure and says she thinks I loved my ex more (false), that my ex was better to me (false), that I'm secretly still in contact with my ex (false), that my family liked my ex more than her (false), and so forth.

I'm very aware that other women are one of her primary triggers, and I've learned how to avoid pressing this trigger in many ways: I never, ever comment on another woman's appearance, I never mention prior relationships, I never mention events in past years where I was dating other women (so, 2004 to 2010 is basically off-limits). And, honestly, mitigating in this way isn't exactly some sort of huge sacrifice.

But none of this stops her from getting inadvertently triggered by something like seeing an actress who she thinks looks like my ex, thinking of my ex when seeing someone or something else with the same or a similar name,  etc. And she'll either rage or silent treatment me. Sometimes it's intentional as well - like looking up my ex on facebook, or looking at paper printouts she made of my facebook posts with my ex (before I deleted them all and blocked her).

It's been nearly half a decade since I last saw or spoke to my ex. Does time ever heal this insecurity? If not, what can I possibly do?

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[an0ught]

Hi SoWhat,

I'm very aware that other women are one of her primary triggers, and I've learned how to avoid pressing this trigger in many ways: I never, ever comment on another woman's appearance, I never mention prior relationships, I never mention events in past years where I was dating other women (so, 2004 to 2010 is basically off-limits). And, honestly, mitigating in this way isn't exactly some sort of huge sacrifice.

Excellent. I mean she does not have to deal with anything upsetting ahh normal. You fixed the reality for her. You only cut 50% of the population out of your interactions. Hmm, maybe not so excellent after all... .  

SoWhat what you are doing is avoiding triggers. This is a dead end that almost all of us run into and it is called walking on eggshells. She is suffering from irrational fears and there is no change of reality that will fix that. But once you done a fix and bought some short quiet period you believe you got a winning streak. She of course will dysregulate again and you give it another shot. Intermittent feedback is deceiving our instincts - it is really gambling addiction that is kicking in on your side.

Should you avoid triggering her?

 - yes, generally if the trigger is invalidating her and there are valid validating alternatives. Really a lot of times we invalidate without care and this badly erodes the emotional stability in the relationship. Not only that but invalidation is one of the most common triggers. Reduce invalidation and most of the triggers are gone. But don't do it because it is trigger but because invalidation is not a loving respectful way to interact and pwBPD are hurting from it badly even if they do not trigger.

 - not at all cost, not unless you want to live in fear. It is better to have a series of smaller conflicts and manage the outcome than to live in fantasy land and once in a while (and with increasing frequency) come crushing down to earth while everything else also falls apart.

By giving in to her fears you saying to her - your fears are justified and by controlling me the situation can be contained. I am untrustworthy. - You are not making her fears go away, you confirmed them again and again.

There are two strategies to deal with her fear (most issues on this board can be framed in these two strategies)

 1) Validation - Telling her she is afraid you are cheating on her. Telling her she is afraid that your old GF still has a grip on your. Telling her that she is insecure as you had a GF 4 years ago. Communicating to her that she feels ugly. Indicating to her that she feels hungry. - Whatever is the actual truth from her perspective as far as you can tell. The point here is demonstrating understanding of her emotional situation - possibly something she can't herself put a finger on. The other point here is - nothing real to be done.

 2) Boundaries - You just do whatever you were about to do. You have a right to control your life - she has not. She gets upset. Her problem to get a grip on. She will freak out, there will be an extinction burst and provided the relationship is not breaking up when all is set and done everything will be a LOT calmer. Boundaries need some planning as badly executed boundaries backfire - read up on workshops.

Staying and normalizing the relationship with a pwBPD requires you to learn ( i.e. develop skills = ability to execute under duress ) these two skills and employ them often in a combination like:

 - validate but limit time spent on validation. Let her do the work to calm down further.

 - boundary but validate afterwards her being upset and abandoned

 - SET (validate and inform her of your boundary) and then boundary when line crossed

etc.

I suggest you start with avoiding invalidation and learning validation. However I have to caution you - anger is often a sign of weak boundaries and you will have to face this conflict at one time.

The LESSONS contain pointers to workshops on invalidation, validation and boundaries. Changing back your ways from where you are at the moment will not happen overnight and will be a struggle. With the tools it is however possible and along the way she may learn to deal with some of her fears alone. You can't help her much there - except for some validation - her job to learn that. In any case you will get part of your life back.

[SoWhat]

Thank you so much for the response. You're right and I know you're right.

I've been reading and re-reading the lessons and workshops. I suppose I've been trying more for validation, but I can see now that it's come across as just a series of weak band-aids.

I'm not sure what sort of boundary is appropriate for the aforementioned 50% of the population. I just don't know what would represent a clean, hard boundary. Any suggestions?


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Just some examples of what's going on:

Two years ago, she told me she liked to go to rock concerts as a teen because she found the musician guys hot. I said "I can only think of one female singer I thought was cute, _____." She went silent the rest of that day and still gets mad if she hears one of hit__'s songs on the radio.

We were looking at potential movies to watch on Netflix. She saw Actress C was in one and said "Actress C is so pretty. Don't you think so?" I made some tenuously-related joke about her films and dodged. She kept asking, eventually yelling at me to answer honestly. When I said "Yes, she's attractive", she got even more enraged. She later told me I should have lied about it.       

She's told me that if my office hires a secretary she thinks I'd find pretty, she'd talk to my boss (to fire the secretary?). 

She once said her friend looked old in a particular picture. I agreed, and then said "She looks much better in this other picture." She narrowed her eyes and asked "So now you think my friend is hot?"

My ex was a certain race. The fiance sometimes asks if I still find women of that race attractive or if I've realized it was a big mistake on my part yet, because no one of that race is attractive. Most recently, thinking I was setting some sort of boundary, I said "I find some women of every race attractive." That really set her off.

She gets on my computer when I'm not home and logs into my facebook and looks at the profiles of my female friends. She then asks me who X,Y, or Z is. As a result (and I see how this is dumb now), I've unfriended just about every female who I'm not related to. I'd love to get off of facebook entirely, but she's told me that she'd find this really suspicious.

Re: facebook: she asked me to ask every member of my family and all of my friends to unfriend my ex-girlfriend AND all mutual friends they have with my ex.

Early on, I had a lot of questions about WHAT exactly she wanted - for me to be a homosexual? asexual? for her to be the ONLY person I'd EVER been physically attracted to in any way? She'd get mad  at those sorts of questions and only answer sarcastically. I'd point out that she'd often comment on guys she found attractive; she responded by saying she'd just stop that, rather than carry on the double standard.

[elemental]

Obviously there is a lot of trouble around her fighting with you over other women being around.

Does she say why she feels so strongly about it?  I mean literally did you ask her if something has happened to make her so afraid? Because while it is annoying and restrictive to you to comply, there may be a reason to her that is very powerful for her feeling and acting this way.

Any idea?

[SoWhat]

She's told me that her first husband cheated on her with some of his nurses.

She admitted once to having an emotional affair on him too.

She's told me that she had a similar fixation on one of his exes before his cheating and maintained the "I can find other people attractive but you can't" double standard for the duration of the marriage.

No reports of anything like that with husband number 2, though that marriage was very very short.

She's 33, I'm 29.

[SweetCharlotte]

Doing the math, by 29 she had been married and divorced twice?

That's quite a track record.

It's nice of you to be so careful in avoiding her triggers, but as AnOught said, that turns into walking on eggshells--a dead end as they move the signposts over on the playing field. Don't you love the mixed metaphors of BPD advice?

I'm not sure I understand what AnOught says about validating her more. It sounds like she needs to do some work on herself.

[Nonamouse]

Hey SoWhat

I'm very sorry for you and I've been there. an0ught's advice is great, had I followed that format from the beginning things would have gone a lot smoother for me.

It took over two years for my dBPDw to stop losing her mind over one person with whom I had a short fling - 2 years before we actually ever met! She too never met this person. She went through all my emails and mapped dates/places we were together. It's mental.

I'm still guilty of walking on eggshells to a certain extent - for instance, I still have to avoid playing any music from bands with whom I went to concerts with this person. I've also pretty much given up friendships with people who still know this person.

The thing is, it was so insignificant. It wasn't even a relationship. It's like you're not allowed to have a life prior to them because it invalidates them.

She hasn't mentioned her in months though. She's still super insecure about me mentioning any woman - female colleagues, actresses, the elderly cleaning lady - but validation helps keep it from escalating to full retard. Setting boundaries enabled me to be able to go to work where I <gasp> encounter women.

Also, I think it's pretty standard fare for BPDs who have this specific trait to say they've been cheated on and that's the reason behind why they act the way they do. Mine sure laid that one on thick. And maybe it's true, I don't know, but it was definitely part of her vulnerability ploy in the beginning of our relationship.

It's really hard. You really do have to change yourself. My life has gotten better as I've learned to cope but it will never be close to normal. I'm back here from time to time, when things get stressful, or if I forget a lesson, lose my temper and invalidate her. And then pay for it with 10X the dysregulation.

Sorry for repeating my whole issue in response to yours. But it just reminded me so much of what I went through. Good luck.

[elemental]

Probably best, then to stick to validation of her feelings. She has them for a reason, and it may be that once she realizes that she is "safe" with you, she will continue to calm it down.

I, personally, cannot come up with a boundry for you. I have been on the receiving end of cheating from my current boyfriend, and the only things that helped me that he can do in the end is not to cheat, not to appear to be cheating by spending nights at his ex wife's, the woman he cheated on me with. And to tell me he knows I have valid reasons for why I feel the way I do.

You are kind of having to do extra work to validate and reassure when you weren't the guy to cheat on her. It sucks, at the same time, once she trusts you, the anxiety and obsessing may die down.

As for being cut off from 50% of the population... . maybe temporarily. I don't know. It's likely she will always feel the way she does to some degree. It's up to you to decide if you are unhappy with her requests and try to make some boundry. I am pretty sure she won't take it well. I am personally not of the opinion of terrorizing someone who is in such a difficult state in order to enforce an boundry that you can't even come up with... . boundries follow your personal values. Do you have a value that says "I will not tolarate my girlfriend making me avoid becoming close to other women"?

Maybe you do. Do you?

[SoWhat]

elemental: I don't have any desire to get "close" to other women. My main concern is to not get screamed at for having dated someone else at some point in the past. It's hard for me to totally disentangle that sort of irrational extreme jealousy from the extreme irrational jealousy of things like:

Me: so, once in high school... .

Her: I bet you had a teacher you thought was hot and you still think about her when you masturbate. <commence silent treatment>.

The more I reflect on it, the more it seems to be part of the same issue. And she's told me she raged at both of her exes about past girlfriends and about finding other women attractive - even before the infidelity.

This weekend, there was no raging but there was silent treatment and then an anxiety attack. We watched a comedy which included some implied nudity - a woman's bare shoulders as she was seducing a guy. My fiancé stopped talking with me for the next few hours until breaking down, crying, and then having an anxiety attack (not being able to breathe, shaking uncontrollably). She said she never wanted to watch movies with anything "like that" again and if that meant neither of us ever watched a movie again, she was fine with it. I validated repeatedly but then tried to gently set a boundary; I told her my parents never had a problem letting each other watch movies of whatever content and that I wanted to be treated like an adult like that. She said "maybe I'll be more secure in the future... . "

[SoWhat]

Hey SoWhat

It's like you're not allowed to have a life prior to them because it invalidates them.

Exactly how I've felt for so long!

It's as if she wants my life before meeting her to be totally meaningless.

And re: past infidelity - I have no doubt that it's true that she was cheated on. But I'm not so sure that was a true cause of her current behavior. As I've said, she's admitted (and her Brother In Law  has confirmed) that she was pretty much the same to her first husband, even early in their relationship.

It's strange, because her parents don't have the same level of insane jealousy. Last year, her parents and us watched a track meet on TV. Her father said "Oh, that Mexican runner is so pretty!" My heart rate instinctively, and I practically yelled in my own head ":)on't you know you can't say stuff like that?" But nothing happened. My fiance laughed, her mother chuckled, and we just kept watching. So I don't know how this is anything other than part of her BPD.

[elemental]

I'm not sure what to tell you, except to validate her feelings and offer a hug and reassurance that she is the one you care for now.

Regarding some silent treatments, sometimes people go quiet because they are trying to handle their own feelings without spilling them all over worse than they already have. Shame based life sometimes.

[SoWhat]

elemental: that's one thing I'm working on - just touching her softly, telling her I love her, and so forth, even while she's angry. I think there may have been some progress last night, though I should have actually set a boundary instead of just obliquely hinting at one.

It actually made me quite sad that I might face a future without any films because my uBPD partner is scared that there might be implied nudity in some of them. I also wondered how far it could go - books too? Can I not reread For Whom The Bell Tolls because of the sex scene? I didn't want to actually ask that question because I was worried about the answer.

We need to get into therapy.

[HopefulDad]

I've been with my uBPD fiance for just about 4 years now. We've been engaged for nearly a year and are due to be married in a month.

Postpone the wedding and if you want to make things work, get into therapy and I mean you, not couples therapy.  Your own therapy will help you see your role in how things got to this point.  Couples therapy relies on both parties being able to be rational and her insecurity is extremely irrational.  She needs therapy herself, but that only works if she wants it.

Ultimately, you will have to set boundaries on her trying to control what you watch, read, listen to, talk about, etc.  There will be extinction bursts galore and for probably a long time no matter how much you validate, SET, etc.  Get okay with that because that is probably the only way things will get better long term.

[SoWhat]

Thank you for the advice, HopefulDad.

I am trying to live my life with less fear - something most people who know me would think of as crazy talk, given the crazy risks to my own safety I've taken in my life. However, I must admit I fear the consequences of delaying the wedding.

That would be the end with my fiancé, I'm sure of it. And I honestly think she might attempt suicide. I love her very much - though it is through a glass, darkly because of her disorder.

I think you are probably right. I just don't think I can (more correct: will) call off the wedding right now. I will do my best to work on everything else in my power. Thank you for the help.

[HopefulDad]

Thank you for the advice, HopefulDad.

I am trying to live my life with less fear - something most people who know me would think of as crazy talk, given the crazy risks to my own safety I've taken in my life. However, I must admit I fear the consequences of delaying the wedding.

That would be the end with my fiancé, I'm sure of it. And I honestly think she might attempt suicide. I love her very much - though it is through a glass, darkly because of her disorder.

I think you are probably right. I just don't think I can (more correct: will) call off the wedding right now. I will do my best to work on everything else in my power. Thank you for the help.

I understand your hesitation... . "better the devil you know than the devil you don't".  It's part of what clouded my mind from acting years sooner.  But that being said, take a look at some of the words you used that I bolded.  This is FOG 101.  And you're about to get into a legal contract with this person should you go through with the marriage.  If you honestly think she's suicidal, you must seek intervention.  There are resources at this site to help you understand how to do this.

Fear shouldn't be part of the marital equation.

[SoWhat]

You're right.  I definitely need to get out of the FOG.

For the first time, I think ever, in our relationship, I initiated a conversation last night about something I found worrisome - the desire to shield me from anything she viewed as sexually inappropriate. I worked very hard on validating throughout.

I, unfortunately, slipped into a bad habit of mine: using hypotheticals and examples to draw out the implications of our beliefs and feelings. While I think this is an excellent tool for communicating with most people, it does not work well with my BPD partner.

The worst was probably after she told me that she thinks it's wrong for people to be physically attracted to anyone they're not in a relationship with; that it's essentially infidelity if you're in a relationship already, and bad for you if you're single. I asked her if it was wrong for me to have been attracted to HER when we were single.

She reacted with some confusion, saying "Yes, I see that's a double edged sword but... . " and then got quiet for most of the rest of the conversation.

However, near the end, I worked on SETing. I stated that she was deeply insecure (she readily agreed), that I understood how hard that is, and then stated that her insecurity is not something *I* can do anything about; that it is ultimately about her and only she can work on it.

Her response was bewildering at first - she said that she thinks her insecurities will improve once she can trust me more than she trusted her first husband, and that will happen after I've been with her longer than they were together (9 years). But then she said she wasn't positive of this, as she thinks she will continue to get more insecure as she gets older and her looks fade.

I never explicitly mentioned FOG, but I did say that I did not want to live in fear of her anger or insecurities - and that she probably did not want me to either. She agreed. I then told her that I would no longer apologize for things I didn't feel sorry for; that sincere regret/repentance only comes from within, not from fear of consequences. She was okay with that at first, but worried about how far I would "take it."

If the extinction bursts get really bad, I'll look into potential interventions. I am ready to step out of the FOG and hope this can help her too. I love this woman very much and am ready to love her from a more genuine position than one of fear, obligation, or guilt.

[HopefulDad]

This is a good start.  It's important to remember what was said and agreed upon because she will blow up again over this.  When you SET in the future over this, you need to remind her what she agreed to.

The extinction bursts will get really bad.  You need to hold your ground and weather the storm.  She will not like the "new you" one bit.  But you will love yourself for the change.

[an0ught]

For the first time, I think ever, in our relationship, I initiated a conversation last night about something I found worrisome - the desire to shield me from anything she viewed as sexually inappropriate. I worked very hard on validating throughout.

Keep going, you are heading towards Kansas!

I, unfortunately, slipped into a bad habit of mine: using hypotheticals and examples to draw out the implications of our beliefs and feelings. While I think this is an excellent tool for communicating with most people, it does not work well with my BPD partner.

You decided to step on a minefield and a few detonated. So what - you are still able to walk further. Maybe the mines were not as strong as suspected. There is little relationship with trigger and explosion. Forget about triggering her - it is unavoidable. Do however when possible avoid invalidation as it is corrosive to the relationship, corrosive to her ability to regulate emotions in general and triggering at the same time.

Her response was bewildering at first - she said that she thinks her insecurities will improve once she can trust me more than she trusted her first husband, and that will happen after I've been with her longer than they were together (9 years). But then she said she wasn't positive of this, as she thinks she will continue to get more insecure as she gets older and her looks fade.

You call it bewildering. I would call it projection unmasked. Remember how the thread started with her questioning your trustworthiness? Fast forward to here and it becomes obvious that she is struggling to trust herself. That is a good example where JADE backfires and validation helps. Claim you are trustworthy and the discussion centers around yourself. Validate that she has concerns about trustworthiness and letting go of old lovers and that enables her to regulate and face the issue.

[SoWhat]

Fantastic, perceptive response.

A lot of people bemoan the double-standards of a BPD partner; I guess this is just another one: "I can talk about my ex, you can't." Goes right along with "I can call other people attractive, you can't."

I sometimes wonder how much of the constant infidelity speculation is projection - she admitted to having an "emotional affair" with H 1, though she says it was *after* she learned of his cheating. Is she constantly thinking of cheating, and thus projects that on me? Or is it just vanilla fear of abandonment? Or maybe those things aren't completely separable.

Thanks for the help, guys. I will continue to update this post with progress or backsliding