I am still in search of some scientific evidence of that [split]

[Numbers]

Split from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=220992

Not everyone attaches to a Borderline and they say we tend to be attracted to an emotional equal.

I am still in search of some scientific evidence of that.

Seeing this mentioned on this and many other boards triggers huge anger in me. I understand all of this is a deeply personal journey and experiences may and do differ, but seeking a failure in myself that justifies obvious, provable and inexcusable malicious intent is hugely invalidating.

I also understand that in order to heal you must accept what you did wrong. And I am sick and tired of acceptance.

But, what if that is a wrong path to healing? What if instead of accepting our "defficiencies" that are implied but in many cases not felt, we need to embrace our excellence in walking en extra mile were many, many would succumb. To say that I attracted someone emotionally similar to me by direct analogy means that my kindness, compassion, empathy and all the energy invested in false hope is equal to acts of disordered person? For me, personally, it does not.

In essence, this is equal to someone burning your house down, raping your wife, mutilating your kids and then courts say "ah , well, you brought this down on yourself because you were not sitting on a porch with a shotgun 24/7".

I am sorry if this is triggering (), but I just needed to let this thought out - listening to her for years how great a failure I am and then listening to the same thing in many support groups just makes me want to scream.

[Clearmind]

Statements like that can appear to lead to self blame. It's not meant to trigger blame it's meant to balance out the relationship demise and help us look within for answers and not continue to blame the Borderline 100%.

It's about accountability. Any relationship takes two and we (me) need to dig deeper than my BPD did this - that thinking will not help us detach.

I have been a member for a long time and have seen so many members come and go. The ones that begin to focus on themselves detach a lot quicker and go on to have healthier relationships...

Take this opportunity with your ex as a blessing - a wake up call to finally out yourself first and not someone who is disordered.

Work on those triggers 4815 because no one should be able to drag you under - work on your self worth and not listen to others - especially don't listen to what a disordered person says about you. I'm not attempting to trigger you or hurt you.

[NyGirl8]

I am very new to detaching.  BUT, I do see the truth in this message.  I have often felt the same thing.  I think though there is a very fine line between admitting failure and admitting I allowed someone to cross my boundaries.  Oh yes, he manipulated my love for him, oh yes he did.  He took advantage of my basic personality that wants to help others and be loved in return, that he did!  And I think it is then another layer to look at the fact that he did just that... . but to not feel the shame in it.  To just accept that it happened and be aware.  To let go of the shame, and as you said... . look at also what we did "right". 

Thanks for the thoughts 4815!  It helped me to process a similar feeling I have been having!

[Skip]

Not everyone attaches to a Borderline and they say we tend to be attracted to an emotional equal.

I am still in search of some scientific evidence of that.

This is from "Bowen's Family Theory".  Bowen was one of the top psychiatrists of all time. Rather than "emotional equal", it might be better to stay "someone of equal emotional maturity".  We don't need to look much further than the relationship squabble to see this.

Seeing this mentioned on this and many other boards triggers huge anger in me. I understand all of this is a deeply personal journey and experiences may and do differ, but seeking a failure in myself that justifies obvious, provable and inexcusable malicious intent is hugely invalidating. I also understand that in order to heal you must accept what you did wrong. And I am sick and tired of acceptance.

I'm a skier.  When I take a skiing lesson, my instructor tells me what I'm doing wrong. I focus on it and fix it so that I can ski better.

But, what if that is a wrong path to healing? What if instead of accepting our "defficiencies" that are implied but in many cases not felt, we need to embrace our excellence in walking en extra mile were many, many would succumb.

The Mayo Clinic defines codependency to b when one partner wants the relationship to continue far more than the other.  This sets up a very unequal and imbalanced partnership.  Most codependents would say they did everything they could and walked the extra mile.  But is that how relationships work - we serve the other person and they return love for it?

I know when I learned to ski, I fond I made the most progress when I accepted that I had to change sometimes and embraced the change.  At times I fought it and I have little to show for those times.  

[Tausk]

I'm sorry for your pain.  It hurts like hell.  I got triggered yesterday, after two years out, and I'm also feeling out of sort today.  I've been angry.  I feel like I've been a victim.  I want revenge, retribution, vindication, closure... .  But it's not so bad today as has been in the past.  And I know that I have found freedom from the pain by following the guidelines suggested.  Of course your case may be different

To say that I attracted someone emotionally similar to me by direct analogy means that my kindness, compassion, empathy and all the energy invested in false hope is equal to acts of disordered person? For me, personally, it does not.

I don't understand this statement.  For me the first part means that because of my shortcomings and FOO issues, I moved into the interaction with my exwBPD, and I continued to try live in the fantasy of a relationship that never was.  And I lived and gave to that unattainable fantasy because my emotional maturity was low. It doesn't mean the actions are the same, but it means I was a willing participant in a destructive endeavor.   Just as some immature children can devote countless amounts of emotional energy into an impossible cause, I did so as well.  

For example, we've all seen teenagers who are emotionally devastated after a breakup.  And they feel that they are going to die.  And they will do anything to fix things.  But as an adult, we should be able to see that it's just something that they are feeling at the moment and it's a life lesson.   But those on this side of the board are like those teens (and even worse) because we moved into a messed up fantasy from the start, and continued to stay there due to the FOG.  

So, if I don't recognize this fact, and deeply accept that I move toward the interaction, and I stayed, and it's my FOO issues that kept me in the FOG, then I'll never be able to get better.  I'll never be able to depersonalize the actions of my ex.  I'll just stay a victim.

In essence, this is equal to someone burning your house down, raping your wife, mutilating your kids and then courts say "ah , well, you brought this down on yourself because you were not sitting on a porch with a shotgun 24/7".

just makes me want to scream.

Maybe this was your interaction with your ex.  Mine was closer to the concept of:



I gave permission to someone ahead of time and supported the actions while they were burning my house down, raping my wife, mutilating my kids .

No one held a gun to my head.  My ex has BPD. She's filled with shame.  She really couldn't do anything that wasn't OKed by me.  :)id I OK the cheating, not directly, but I OK all the insanity that included the cheating.  And in her Disorder, she will do what she needs to do to survive.

And I allowed it.   Unless someone is tying me up and torturing me, no one is making me do anything.  I chose to move into the interaction and participate in the insanity, b/c of my FOO issues.   I COULD HAVE LEFT AT ANYTIME.  I CHOSE TO REMAIN.  But again, that's my experience. Maybe your interaction was different.

That's the acceptance part.  And then I can look at my FOO issues.  Then I can have compassion for myself. Then I can forgive myself for accepting all the crap. Then I can heal and grow and hope that things will be different.  

It doesn't make the actions of my ex right, or good, or nondestructive.  But it takes away the concept that I was a victim.  There's nothing worse for my recovery than victim ideology.

But that's just me and what has helped me.   I know how hard it is.  As I said, I say her only friend yesterday at the most important place in the world to me, and my actions with my ex, have put a very black mark on the place of worship.  But I still will move on.  I hope you can as well.  

[LettingGo14]

This is from "Bowen's Family Theory".  Bowen was one of the top psychiatrist of all time.

This article, by a Bowen acolyte, is as close as I've ever come to understanding "differentiation" of self and his theory that we match with people.  Sorry it's a bad copy.

www.ftp.columbia.edu/itc/hs/nursing/m4050/baker/8571Su03/Kerr.pdf

[Cumulus]

Split from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=220992



[quote author=Clearmind link=topic=220992.msg12403022#msg12403022 date=

But, what if that is a wrong path to healing? What if instead of accepting our "defficiencies" that are implied but in many cases not felt, we need to embrace our excellence in walking en extra mile were many, many would succumb. To say that I attracted someone emotionally similar to me by direct analogy means that my kindness, compassion, empathy and all the energy invested in false hope is equal to acts of disordered person? For me, personally, it does not.

Hi 415, this isn't in response to your question re scientific evidence of bonding between peoples of equal emotional maturity which is beyond my scope of thinking, but to do with what the above paragraph states.

I was not triggered by your post, I found it thought provoking and with truth in it.

My own understanding is that we are each given different gifts. And, that each of these gifts which are our greatest strengths are also our greatest weaknesses. The person given the gift of frugality may use it to a degree that she becomes mean and tight fisted. The person given the gift of generosity may use it until he himself is bankrupt. I believe many of us on this board were given the gifts of empathy, self direction and compassion. They are not deficiencies but great humanitarian gifts. My question then becomes at what point did my giving of these gifts become a weakness in the relationship I had with my xBPDh? I like the gifts I have been given, they are what make me who I am. At what point are they no longer a gift but my weakness? It's not a black and white line and that is why it can be so difficult to see when we are in relationship. It's like the frog in the pot of water. For me it was a crisis that finally allowed me to feel the heat. Thanks for this post. Cumulus.

[Landslide2014]

I've related to a lot of this.  Tausk, I can identify so clearly with trying to live out the fantasy that never was.  The moment I opted to begin setting boundaries, the apple cart unsettled and the imagined connection became even more distant. It has been difficult to become aware and then to accept my awareness, and then act in the best interest of my own mental health knowing that our relationship  would never achieve the healthy status I longed for. I read that loss of the illusion is often worse than walking through the rubble.  I think there is a lot of truth in that.  While the pain of the  journey is no doubt present, The anticipation and anxiety and disappointment that it will not be what I thought it would be is even more painful. I am learning to allow for that.

As far as scientific evidence, I choose to take an alternate perspective.  My FOO gave me the traits to absorb what others should be responsible for.  This in itself is a gift and a weakness.  I like being responsible, empathetic and caring. However, I know I should not own what others expect of me.  All of which I had a choice whether to take on or not.  That should be the end and if someone else wants to judge that, it's  their stuff, not mine.  My healing began when I understood that it would be hard to say "no" but I did it anyway, despite the implications it created.  Combining a codependent with a BPD, just makes sense.  One person dumps, the other owns it. In a sense it is an opportunity for both personalities to address and heal from it.  I am beyond the  point of addressing.  I have given up hope that my BPD will ever join me in the healing.  Like Cumulus said, the balance needs to be determined... . at what point is it  a strength and what point is it a weakness?  That is the chapter I am at now.  It is my belief that my higher power, not science put the uBpDH in my path so I can address that and further become a whole and healthy person.  The challenge for me right now, is that I don't know if that means sticking it out a little longer or moving on.  I think I know the answer, but perhaps need to deny it some more so that I am fully able to accept it.  Thank you all for your wisdom, strength and hope.

[Turkish]

My experience, like many here, is that I was the parent from almost the beginning with mine. The definition of a loaded r/s. Maybe not an "equal" maturity (even my T disagrees with this), but it was for sure a "match." I tried to go to her level, but fought it constantly, and got sick of trying to be something I had left behind a long time ago, or so I thought... . The bond we formed is understandable, but we were just mismatched people in a lot of other significant ways. Why I fought something I knew from the beginning, but continued it, is something I own 100%.

After one kid, then the next, she came up more to "my level" than I down to hers. When I refused to enable her teen-like behavior, she bolted. Her mom even saw her behavior deteriorate before I did. Well, I did, but I enabled it for a while, thinking it was merely something she needed to "get out of her system." It was much more than that; it was closer to who she really was emotionally.

She still mirrors the parent (of our children) half the time, and half the time, she is teen lover for a much younger guy, who is even immature for his age from what I could tell. In him, she found more her "equal."

Looking back at everything, I'm a Waif rescuer, plain and simple. I always was, no matter if they were older or younger than me.

[Conundrum]

I apologize in advance for the long post, but Bowen comes up a lot on this board, and I'm having a great deal of trouble applying his Family Systems Theory in a meaningful manner to our relationships here <me confused>.

If the premise begins with multi-generational predictability of behavior, we're approaching probability. If the mean is: emotional maturity = realistic needs and expectations, the deviation must be, emotional immaturity = unrealistic needs and expectations.

How are the means/norms defined, making sense of the deviations, in light of so many obvious variables? The mean/norms--realistic needs and expectations are hugely impacted by selection bias. For example, there will be variables based on culture, religion, ethnicity and a host of other noticeable classifications. The emotional needs and expectations of one group may be entirely different from another. A clear example would be a highly secular couple vs. a highly devout theistic couple--would their needs and expectations be identical?

In light of the above, I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what the mean/norm is (realistic needs and expectations), and the nexus to the relative emotional maturity of any particular coupling/pairing.

If we apply this classification to what's material here (people with BPD), and make a general assumption that their needs and expectations are unrealistic, hence immature--that seems to support the premise that, anyone who becomes romantically involved/attached to a pwBPD is emotionally immature too. Isn't that a wide gap to jump over without more? To me it appears to be just a guesstimate. Furthermore, isn't it a sad premise for pwBPD too, because it labels them as only being able to enter relationships with badly damaged people.

Now one of the apparent types of non/BPD couplings seems to be the codependent/BPD. There are degrees of codependence and therefore degrees of emotional immaturity. How is it possible to determine how far that coupling deviates from the mean/norm when it's almost impossible to define the romantic/relational mean/norm in today's hook-up culture.

Finally what seems to contradict this whole premise (at least in relation to BPD relationships), is if water seeks it's own level and the non is of equivalent emotional maturity/immaturity then wouldn't the non just roll with the craziness instead of trying to instill functionality, order and maturity into the relationship. Isn't the entire purpose for SET, DEARMAN and JADE an attempt to establish a workable relationship with a pwBPD.  Aren't those techniques being used by nons an expression of emotional maturity, or are they simply a Band-Aid for continuing emotional immaturity?

If someone truly understands this theory and its relevance, can you please clue me in--I'm lost.

[seeking balance]

Now one of the apparent types of non/BPD couplings seems to be the codependent/BPD.

The other prevailing coupling is NPD/BPD

[Turkish]

Now one of the apparent types of non/BPD couplings seems to be the codependent/BPD.

The other prevailing coupling is NPD/BPD

Which is what mine cycled back to. If not full blown NPD (or BPD I suspect!), then definitely a younger guy with narc tendencies which are blatantly obvious from his social media. Looking back on what she told me about her two previous relationships, it's more her norm. I was the outlier (CD/Caretaker/Rescuer) for my uBPDx. I found a flowery letter to her from her previous bf when I was going through getting rid of the stuff she left in my house. I just scanned through it (ancient history, no matter to me at this point), and was like "Oh, wow! She actually falls for this crap!" The guy stole her car, she got an RO against him, and he later ended up in jail on an unrelated matter. Yet in the beginning, he flattered her, and she bought it. Hook, line, sinker, boat.

[Skip]

If someone truly understands this theory and its relevance, can you please clue me in--I'm lost.

In reading your summary, I think you understand Bowen pretty well.  Maybe you just don't agree with it or see it as applicable to yourself.  

Finally what seems to contradict this whole premise (at least in relation to BPD relationships), is if water seeks it's own level and the non is of equivalent emotional maturity/immaturity then wouldn't the non just roll with the craziness instead of trying to instill functionality, order and maturity into the relationship. Isn't the entire purpose for SET, DEARMAN and JADE an attempt to establish a workable relationship with a pwBPD.  Aren't those techniques being used by nons an expression of emotional maturity... .

I'm not sure I see this as a norm on the Leaving Board or a contradiction for those that do embrace and learn to apply tools. Is an alcoholic no longer an alcoholic when he tries to quit?  When a person with BPD walks away from a conflicted relationship, is that an act of emotional superiority?  Is the NPD in a BPD/NPD relationship more emotionally mature? 

If a principle or theory doesn't make sense to us and reading about it doesn't help, then we may want to dial up a professional.  

I remember some assertions a therapist made to me 10 years ago.  One in particular was that he wanted to know what all the women in my past relationships had in common.  I said very little, I've had some very diverse people in my life - he winced and we moved on - and I buried the question in background bringing it up to myself from time to time.  And then one day, years later, I saw it - clear as can be.

It's a journey.  Self-awareness is the hardest part.  I saw an interview with a researcher last week who stated that how we see ourselves is often very different than how others see us.

Good discussion here.

[Turkish]

I saw an interview with a researcher last week who stated that how we see ourselves is often very different than how others see us.

I see myself as much worse than everyone (and that is yes, everyone, even uBPDx to an extent) sees me. I've learned to be more honest with myself, and silence the critical inner parent, but it's something I will probably be working on the rest of my life. My T even "fought" with me about it, "You don't take compliments well, do you?" The only part of my life where I am not critical of myself is as a father. When people compliment me about being a "good father" I just think, "I'm just doing what I am supposed to do." Ditto when people call me a "good son." So maybe I'm still not being honest with myself.

[Numbers]

Bowen defines "differentiation of personality" as measure of one's emotional maturity. This is not how average board member would define emotional maturity and I can now see why is it so hard to be labeled as such. Most of us (visible even from answers to this thread) define emotional maturity as conformation of our emotional life with value systems. In blunt terms, e.g. "I am not a cheater" equals to "I am more emotionally mature". I do not know how emotionally mature I am, even Bowen says it is impossible to measure (am I right?), but I do know there is a difference between staying out of fear and leeching for survival.

Second is that we were attracted to someone who masterfully misrepresented him/herself. I wonder if this figures into "emtional maturity match". Sure, there were red flags, but how can an average person not accustomed to such relationships know what will these flags bring? And by the time masks came down, there were many other systems at play, other then initial attraction. So, all peachy, we were in fact attracted to something that appeared much healthier. Still think that relationship was a product of emotional immaturity?

By the same reasoning, codependency is not officially recognized. Why then are we using the term to label members?

An argument can be made that I am slowing my own healing and growth by challenging concepts above, but honestly I do not feel so. Actually, I feel validated for expressing and sharing after years of walking on eggshells.

[charred]

You might want to check out the book "A general theory of Love"... it is fairly compelling reading on the science of attraction and how we pick our mates. I can understand your reluctance to accept that people find a person that is an emotional equal to them.

The science doesn't exactly say that... it does however say we find people who meet our model of what love is, and that we get that model by observing our FOO.

I didn't think there was anything to it, my mother is reserved, somewhat easy going, my pwBPD could have been the poster girl for BPD... and was downright scary when angry... . like she could kill someone. Both are BPD, one turns it inward, one outward.

Took a long time to see any similarity... but I see it now.

My mother is waif BPD... quiet, turns things in against herself, it comes out as passive-aggressive actions. My pwBPD is the more normal kind... I wanted someone more expressive than I was used to... and she is hyper expressive... when angry could kill.

So... if the science says that I look for what I saw as love... it was right... . and the "water finds its own level" analogy is correct as well. Thought I grew up in a dysfunctional household and made it through unscathed. Well I grew up... but am amazed at my own ego defenses and core wound... . and it turns out the pain in a BPD r/s... . doesn't come from the pwBPD... it is from old FOO issues typically.

So... it is all a lot to accept,

Freud was not the crackpot I thought he was,... . he was right about quite a bit.

So... is a pwBPD your equivelent... probably not exactly...

I don't have a PD either... . but I do have a lot of baggage/fleas.

If you are sure you are totally normal... take some tests, look on-line for the schema therapy tests and interpretation guides. Or pick up the book "Reinventing Yourself"... it is a schema therapy test and guide for figuring out how to address fleas... .

I was surprised to learn that of all the areas only one was in the normal range... and plenty of people agreed with the results (friends/family)... . it was spot on. The good news... no PD, however all those little things that cause friction in a r/s... . when piled in one big emotional heap... . probably add up to about the emotional equivalent of BPD. From other tests I found out I wasn't NPD (which my pwBPD accused me of)... though I am pretty codependent... . anyway, it is hard not to be defensive and want to blame the pwBPD for 100% of the r/s issues... . and they are responsible for a lot of the r/s issues... . about 50% more or less.

[Landslide2014]

I did want to comment on the use of the codependency terminology. I believe that it is often a bi-product if what happens to people as a result of being in an unhealthy relationship. It has been extremely helpful to me to identify with the characteristics when it came time for me to begin my journey toward emotional recovery. While the list of traits may be long, the behaviors are clear. And just like when I read the list of BPD traits, it was instrumental for me in developing an understanding so that I might proceed on my path to healing. Finally being able to identify to what was happening and experiencing the security of knowing I was not alone. I'm not sure how each individual feels, but for me, healing is an essential part of this process. This is the blessing that is evolving from being in such a challenging predicament.

[Tausk]

I've read many threads similar to this with themes such as are pwBPD evil?  Was I lured? Aren't I the good one trying to help? What's wrong with trying to help? What's wrong with sticking around and trying to rescue?  Was my ex abusive?

Was I a victim of Abuse?  Was I deliberately tricked?... .  

And I've seen that the answers go all over the spectrum.  And I realize that everyone's interactions were different.

But the posters whose recovery I wanted had certain themes that I've wanted to adopt that include but are not limited to:

1. Not getting wrapped up in semantics or trying to become a clinical psychiatrist in twelve short weeks.  Take what I need and leave the rest.

2. Acknowledgement that I was a really sick f'ked-up puppy when I entered the interaction

3.  Admission that I used my ex as much as she used me.

4.  :)epersonalize the interaction because it's a Disorder.

5.  Understand that I was a volunteer for the abuse... . not a victim.  I could have left at anytime.

6. My FOO issues are why I entered and stayed.  People of decent self esteem, self worth, and self awareness don't end up with pwBPD as their soulmates and true loves    

7. If I continuously think that my ex is evil or abusive, then I take away responsibility for my part, and thus limit my recovery.

8.  If I'm feeling bitter or resentful, then I've got to figure out why part of me is in shame, because a person who's so Disordered does not have that type of influence over a "normal" person.

9.  Letting go, isn't about blaming or forgetting... . it's about figuring out who I am, and not just my false ego.

10.  Understanding that I have strengths as well as defects. I am a person of character, decency, and want to support others.  But I need to have my actions be selfless, and not because I am ashamed.

11. Looking at my defective schemas.

12. Compassion for my ex due to the Disorder.  Compassion for myself due to my FOO issues.  Forgiveness of myself.  Change in myself.

13.  Understanding that I do have control issues just like my ex always claimed.

14.  50/50 responsibility in the destruction.  I could have left.  I chose to participate.

15.  The only way out of the maze of confusion is to look inward.  Learning about the Disorder provides some information.  But the way out is deep within me, not anywhere near my ex.  So I should stop looking that way.

etc, etc. etc... .

The list can go on and on. And what I've written above is just stream of consciousness and not elegant at all.  But it's the principles that  I've seen the "winners" on this side of the board adopt.  

And I want to be a winner in recovery.  Continuing to blame my ex or ignore my defects just keeps me in the Disorder, which developed its roots in my life 40 years before I even met my ex.   Very simply, if I wasn't at least partially f'ked up, why am I still stuck on an evil cheating sociopath with the emotional maturity of traumatized three year old.  Any mentally and emotionally healthy person would have long since moved on.

Recovery from my interaction is not guaranteed.  In fact many people do not recover.  Many people become trapped in their own fears and FOO defects for their entire lives.  

I don't want to grow old alone and become the bitter, sour, and mean old curmudgeon who yells at kids on his lawn.

I want to recover!