I know that NC would be best, but the guilt is terrifying me.

[losingconfidence]

A few years ago I started coming to terms with the fact that there was serious abuse in my childhood and that abuse will continue if I go home for any reason (even a short visit). My parents both enforce an atmosphere of denial. I'm not allowed to believe the abuse happened and they'll mine me for signs that I do - constant questions from my mother like "am I a bad mom?" where I have to say "no" or else there's a fight. She uses questions like that as a form of gas-lighting to basically make me come up with reasons why it didn't happen to appease her. It kills my progress and sets me back in coming to terms with the trauma. I feel like I'm half-in, half-out when it comes to dealing with my denial.

Any time I talk to anyone about this, though, (whether they're a therapist or just a friend) we end up going around in circles. They ask me if there are any ways besides NC to deal with this. I come to recognize that there aren't. Then they ask me why I don't leave, and I say I feel guilty. They ask why I feel guilty and I give reasons that they don't buy and then nothing gets fixed.

I guess I feel guilty and afraid for a number of reasons.

1. I worry that it is somehow objectively immoral to leave my parents.

2. I worry that my parents are overall good people or they're "just ill" and therefore do not deserve the heartache of being cut off.

3. My parents have paid for a lot of things and I think they sort-of love me in that "as long as you act exactly how we want" way.

4. I'm scared of the letters, the e-mails, the possible unannounced visits, and all of their attempts at reconnecting that will hurt like hell and make me feel like the worst person alive.

5. I can't stand the fact that after 25 years of trying to be forgiven for whatever I was constantly being punished for, I have to just accept that I'm garbage in their eyes and that I just have to be the bad guy who hurts them and does the unthinkable ie: leaves her poor parents.

6. I have an elderly grandfather I can't easily visit without visiting them and I'll feel guilty because he won't understand me cutting them off and they'll undoubtedly vent at him about it.

7. I keep feeling the judgment of my old church and Sunday school teacher (even though I'm not Christian anymore) for being "selfish" and a "bad little girl" or whatever.

8. I want them to get it, to get how badly they hurt me and how they enabled cult abuse in my life and I am having a really hard time letting go of that.

9. I feel bad because if they're sick (with BPD or whatever) then isn't leaving them all the more cruel? I don't know.

People (including therapists) seem to expect that just telling me "but it's not immoral" or "but you didn't deserve it" or "but leaving's better for you" or "but the abuse did happen" or "but their feelings don't matter" will magically make it okay for me to do this, but it doesn't.

I'm curious. What was the "I can do it" point for you after which you didn't feel all that guilt anymore?

[Sitara]

Did you notice all of your reasons revolve around what other people think and all but one revolve around your parents?  What do you want?

I worry that it is somehow objectively immoral to leave my parents.

Society plays a large part in this and I think it's fairly hypocritical. It's more generally accepted to leave a bad marriage, but you must never leave family? Being family does not give them a free pass to abuse you. Is it not immoral for parents to abuse their own children?

I worry that my parents are overall good people or they're "just ill" and therefore do not deserve the heartache of being cut off.

I feel bad because if they're sick (with BPD or whatever) then isn't leaving them all the more cruel? I don't know.

These are essentially the same thought. Is it sad that they are sick? Yes. Are they ill? Yes. Is this an excuse to abuse? No. My mom seems to live in a world full of misery, and although I find it incredibly sad, it does not mean I need to live in that world with her.

I'm scared of the letters, the e-mails, the possible unannounced visits, and all of their attempts at reconnecting that will hurt like hell and make me feel like the worst person alive.

You can ignore letters and emails. I tend to build up things way worse in my head than actually happens. You may expect one thing to happen and get something much less spectacular.

I can't stand the fact that after 25 years of trying to be forgiven for whatever I was constantly being punished for, I have to just accept that I'm garbage in their eyes and that I just have to be the bad guy who hurts them and does the unthinkable ie: leaves her poor parents.

Staying won't change this. They tend to find something wrong in any situation. Staying just makes you a target.

I have an elderly grandfather I can't easily visit without visiting them and I'll feel guilty because he won't understand me cutting them off and they'll undoubtedly vent at him about it.

Just because it's not easy doesn't mean it's not possible, and you might be surprised. Some people have found that other family members understand better than they think they will.

I keep feeling the judgment of my old church and Sunday school teacher (even though I'm not Christian anymore) for being "selfish" and a "bad little girl" or whatever

It's hard, but you can't base other people off your parents. Not everybody is judging you. Why is this person so important to you if they aren't in your life anymore?

I want them to get it, to get how badly they hurt me and how they enabled cult abuse in my life and I am having a really hard time letting go of that.

Maybe the workshop on Radical Acceptance can help with that. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

People (including therapists) seem to expect that just telling me "but it's not immoral" or "but you didn't deserve it" or "but leaving's better for you" or "but the abuse did happen" or "but their feelings don't matter" will magically make it okay for me to do this, but it doesn't.

It's not magic and it takes time.  Sometimes it helps to hear those truths over and over before it actually starts to sink in.

I'm curious. What was the "I can do it" point for you after which you didn't feel all that guilt anymore?

There wasn't one particular point. For me it was a long series of events that built up to my breaking point. As I grew up more and more (college, marriage, kids, house) she started acting out in more obviously crazy ways and I started slowly seeing things weren't quite right. Seeing her treat my kids and my husband the same way as me was a big one. Realizing I was getting migraines after dealing with her, having panic attacks just from driving to her house made me realize my relationship was harming my health and I wasn't willing to give her physical years off my life in an attempt to keep her happy. I realized that my major bouts with depression had the common denominator of her making the situation worse. I had made several attempts to mend our relationship, and none had worked. I just finally realized that no matter what I did I couldn't change things with her, so I had to change things with me. I needed to focus on fixing my personal issues so my children didn't grow up like I did. I went through a range of emotions; guilt, anger, frustration, and now it's mostly sadness - sad that I can't have the family I want, sad that I couldn't change things. But my life is better now. Things aren't easier, just healthier, working towards happier.

No one can make this choice for you and no one can magically make you feel better. Only you can do that. And it is hard because we like to think that we always have two choices, one good and one bad, but sometimes the reality is that we have to make a choice between two really sucky ones. 

[lucyhoneychurch]

Sitara walked you through so many good concerns and questions for you to analyze and breathe through. 

"People... . seem to expect that just telling me ... . "

I'll put it like this even though there isn't a thing to add to her comments.

If you are standing beside a toxic cesspool of fumes and liquids and you can see that you are being in turn poisoned, possibly for the rest of your life or *already* have been via PTSD, for example - do you stand there and keep inhaling the fumes and soaking in the liquid waste and runoff and putridness or do you MOVE AWAY from the source of your illness and sickness?

Unless you look at going no contact as a way for you to survive vs some way you somehow think it's punishing them, I think your guilt is going to increase. Because at some point your frustration and profound grief about your life is going to simply creep into further dysfunction. Mine did. And that was as I was trying to grapple with my abusive mother and nurture my small children.

Mine got to levels where I thought death itself might be the better "choice" because I was so fearful of every last thing you listed. Abuse will push you to the wall where that list gets longer with even more terrible desolate "options," one of which can be so permanent and total it makes our previous worries about hurting them look trite. Suicidal ideation became my blanket. My comfort hidey-hole. I never ever made a move that would've been considered a suicide attempt, but I am telling you at some point your psyche will break against this type of battering.

You are the only one who will know when enough is enough. It sounds like that to me and I bet to you that it's way beyond that point, but you are holding onto guilt THAT IS NOT YOURS TO BEAR.

It might finally get bad enough, even though I think it already is for you, that you will not give a damn what NC might mean for someone else - only that it is psychological oxygen.

You aren't living right now.

I wasn't alive with my family's abuses heaped into my soul and only increasing every time I saw her/them.

I was an instrument of my own torture, because I was the only one putting me back into that cesspool. No one else made me.

I was no longer the little girl so so far out in that ocean of pain, except in my head.

You are still in the ocean and blinded by the waves of codependency that you owe them anything.

What do you owe yourself? If you ever have children, what do you owe them? Now is the time to navigate this, not when very small innocent beings rely on you like mine did... . I came extremely close to letting them down forever. And I cheated them, *I* cheated them, no one else, of alot of calm and good times with their young mom, ME, by maintaining contact.

No one gave me permission to move away from the sepsis of it all.

You've heard so many good reasons. I don't know why you are keeping the chains around you, but only you will know when enough is enough. Just don't make some future children bear the brunt of it with you.

That would be the answer to your question of how "i can do it" came about for me - when it was being turned on my children by her, in my presence, and I knew it's me or her.

You can do it.

You don't have to wait. But you will know best.   

I had alot to add, but not in substance to Sitara's very astute thoughts. Just wanted to re-boot you with my heart's desire that not one more soul goes through one more day of this pain.

[StarStruck]

Hi losingconfidence -

You have put your concerns very eloquently. I know exactly what you are going through; I was LC for years then went to VLC for a couple then recently decided I had to NC. It was a really tough decision and how I was to go about it, took a lot of planning. I really thought about the best way I could possibly do it, my idea was to get what I needed and to hurt them in the smallest way possible. It wasn't about bitterness as you are probably aware (not to say there weren't times in my past that would make me bitter). It was love for myself.

I feel for you that you are in this situation at all, it's awful. I was very worried about being hurt by mom getting in contact after I had sent an NC note. What I did to counter this though was to run though this scenario and then reinforce to myself the reason why I was doing this - made a decision that if that happened (the worse case scenario) I would hold firm.

What is great if you decide NC, is that its a very final decision (like someone has died). You are not permitted to take their messages, return their calls, open mail from them. This is for a very good reason; so you don't end up with a dilemma in your mind as well as the grief of losing your parents. If my parents turned up to visit I wouldn't open the door, if they sent mail I wouldn't read it.

I also thought the same as you if she's sick I should help but discussed this at length and came to the conclusion that she wouldn't even take it on and would lead to more hurt for me. I came to the conclusion that she would never get it, if she did she wouldn't have done all she had in the first place. Some people in an NC letter do state all the reasons why they leave. Some don't feel they need to send a letter at all, just disappear of the radar.

I think the hard thing is, if there are other relationships that you want to keep, your grandfather. I would have a good think about how you can best do that, to see if there's a way or if not to then go through the process of thinking, are you prepared to lose the relationship if you have more to gain by going NC. He may surprize you and have his own ideas or just want you in his life still. You would have to explain after NC that you would rather not talk about the NC thing with him. You don't want any triangulation going on.

It is not immoral to stand up for yourself (to NC your parents). Also don't worry about other peoples judgement in your head at all.

In answer to your question;  What was the "I can do it" point for you after which you didn't feel all that guilt anymore?

My growth was accumulative and I needed more room to house my happiness - so I made more room for it

You are doing all the right things; you sound very considered in your approach, this will mean that whatever decision you make, you will know you did the right thing. Take this at the pace you need, be kind to yourself. Remember, stay true to yourself, believe what you know to be true and listen to what you think you can do for yourself to have a better life.

All the very best with this & keep posting   x

[rebl.brown]

Hi, thank you for sharing your struggle with guilt.  I needed to read that today.  The responses were great too hopefully they will help or at least part of something said will encourage you.  I know every situation is different.  The guilt is what keeps you tethered to these relationships.  I've never really understood why it is so powerful.  You care because you're supposed to care for family and this mental illness causes them to choose to use that against you.  I went NC with my mother about 10 years ago and the guilt has slowly gotten better.  I don't have any guilt anymore but I had to work through it over and over and I wasn't even seeing her!  I just stopped contacting her during a big crisis time of suicide attempts because I couldn't do it anymore.  It truly was a choice of either I want to live and have my family or I am going to die continuing this relationship.

My parents are divorced and I still listen to my abusive NP father and I get so mad at myself.  His judgemental tirade is going through my head right now.  I want so much to go NC with him, finding the voice is so difficult.  We were squashed and traumatized as little kids and conditioned never to speak against it.  Helps me so much to read these posts, brings me back to the reality that they always try to deny.  Blessings and peace to you and you strive to make a stand.  You are worth it and if you have to cut them all off, do it.  I hope you have a few supportive people around you that will just listen.  Assuaging and working through the guilt is hard but it gets better.

My crazy mother (I hate to call her that even, I hate the word mother) contacted my cell phone after NC for 10 years just a couple weeks ago.  Thank God I did not answer the phone.  I went out and immediately purchased a new phone and number and only had to talk about it twice to process it and move on.  You can do it.

[chickadee]

I'm curious. What was the "I can do it" point for you after which you didn't feel all that guilt anymore?

Hi Losingconfidence, Good question---I can't really say that there was a specific point in time when my NC guilt subsided.  My NC came about when my mother started a major fight with me over the phone back in 2005, and that conversation was when I decided I'd had enough.  Almost 4 decades of trying to salvage some kind of relationship with her had failed and the toll it had taken on my physical health was too much.  I couldn't give anymore of myself to her.  The damage she and my father had done to my life is something I will never overcome completely, but at least I can try to enjoy what's left of it, but only WITHOUT them in it.  NC was hard at first, the first Mother's Day for example was devastating, I felt so guilty I couldn't even leave the house.  It got better though, I guess partly because I got used to it, but also because I kept reminding myself what they have done to my life, and what they would keep doing if they were still part of it.  I have 2 kinds of chronic pain and plenty of emotional pain that I deal with every day, so it's not hard for me to forget the damage my parents have done.  These days, I hardly even give birthdays and anniversaries a second thought.

Giving up a lot of extended family in order to avoid my parents was hard.  The vast majority of them are dysfunctional too, but I still miss some of them, and my son doesn't have them in his life either.  There is only one aunt (and her husband and kids) that I still am in touch with.  She understands the situation, she knows I don't want to talk about my parents or ever see them again, and she's OK with that.  She knows what my mom is like since they are sisters.  She loves and accepts me exactly the way I am (how I wish SHE had been my mother).  She's the only one of my mom's siblings who doesn't have some sort of personality issue, so that's why I still want her in my life.  It's very comforting that I still have at least a few extended family members. 

My mom tried to strike up a relationship with me a few times after that awful phone conversation in 2005.  My response was to write her a letter begging her to get therapy because I think she has BPD, and that was the scariest thing I have ever done.  I didn't know what kind of backlash I would get.  As it happens, I never got any reply at all, and my parents both stopped all contact with me, and even with my son too.  I was relieved, but I also realize they might eventually reach out to me again, particularly when the inevitable happens and one of them dies, I think the other might try to have contact with me again.   I don't think I can ever let either one of them back into my life again though, because I keep thinking about how destructive they were to me.  Even if I laid down some very strict boundaries with them, I still don't think I could deal with it.  They have simply taken everything they can from me and I can't see myself wasting one more moment of my life on either of them.  I get tense just thinking about it.  According to my aunt, they never did seek therapy and I know they will never change. 

For what it's worth, I do know exactly what you're going through.  For many years, I know the best thing for me would be to not have any contact with my parents at all, but I was scared.  I was raised to put my own needs last, which I think is probably how you were raised too.  During our last phone conversation, I finally came right out and asked my mother "why won't you let me talk about MY feelings?".  Her response was to completely ignore that question and continue criticizing.  You know, just now as I write this, I'm remembering a snide remark she made about my chronic pain condition.  I think that must have been a major turning point for me, because she had never been scornful about my pain before that.  That's when I fully realized how little she cares for me and my well-being. 

I really hope that you can put your guilty feelings aside so that you can assert your need for NC with your parents soon.  It was a very frightening and painful thing for me to do, but I have not regretted it.  My self-esteem has grown considerably without my parents (my mother especially) in my life to keep me down.  It is such a wonderful feeling to have a better opinion of myself and to know that I'll never have to let someone possess me like my parents did ever again.  I can stand up for myself now, instead of automatically thinking ill of myself when someone tries to put me down, no matter who it is.  Having NC is the only way I have been able to move on and try to enjoy my life a little, even though my physical and mental health had taken quite a blow.  I did suffer guilty feelings about initiating NC, but those feelings never became debilitating for long and I was able to overcome them and I'm sure you will too.     Chickadee.

[clljhns]

You have had wonderful responses. I wanted to share mine as extra support for you!

I can tell you that the defining moment was when my mother had invited herself to my house,(as she often did) knowing that I was giving a dinner for two very dear friends anniversary. She read the card I gave them, and I saw her face drop. I knew the look, and I refused to be hooked by it and ask what was wrong. I tried calling for three days to make final arrangements for my father's birthday. Finally, after leaving several messages, my father answered the phone to tell me that they had not answered my calls because I had hurt them. The reason, he explained, that they were hurt was because I wrote "Love always" in the closing of the card. I asked why this would hurt their feelings, and he went on to state that if I felt that way about them, then I obviously didn't love them. It was at this moment that a veil was lifted and I realized how crazy they really were. It was my moment of epiphany. I was 38.

I went to therapy and had the courage to confront my father over the abuse of myself and my siblings at both of their hands. He denied everything and told me that I was out of the will and wouldn't get anything of theirs. He just didn't get it. I never wanted any of their material possessions, only their unconditional love. This was something that none of us kids ever received. There were always strings attached to anything they did for us. And they lorded it over us, never let us forget. We had to give them complete allegiance, and unconditional love. We had to agree with everything they said, or we were told that we did not love them.

I was angry with my mother, so I did not confront her directly. I was truly afraid that I would not be able to contain my anger and that she would physically attack me, as she had done so many times in the past with one of my sister's and brother. I know through my oldest sister that my mother denies any abuse.

I want to tell you about my oldest sister as a cautionary tale. When I broke off communication with my parents, she did also. My brother and other sister had been thrown out of the family fifteen years before, so we reconnected with them. My oldest sister was really struggling with not having any contact with our parents. I didn't realize at the time how mentally ill my sister was. She began therapy and then started to invade my life. She would come to my home and cry to me for hours. I didn't have time to begin my own grieving and healing because she became an energy vampire. My other sister, living in another state, was also compelled to use me as her personal therapist. My oldest sister went so far as to act as if she had multiple personalities to gain all of the attention. I didn't know that was what she was doing at the time. I was so overwhelmed with reconnecting with two of my siblings, cutting all ties to my parents, and finally dealing with my childhood abuse, I had to take a month off from work. Here is now the cautionary part of my tale. Even though my oldest sister continued with therapy, she had a deep need to see our parents. I cautioned her, and told her to wait until she was stronger. It had only been three months. At this point, she has now continued contact with them for the past ten years and recently told me that it was aliens that abused us. I just want you to understand the depths that she fell to, albeit willingly, to have a relationship with them.

I leave you with the famous words from the Labyrinth, "You have no power over me!"

Remember this. They have no power over you. Only what you are willing to give to them. It takes time to get past the feelings of guilt and pain, but it does pass. I grieved very much the first year. After that, it was easier to focus on the positive things that I wanted for my life.

Many blessings to you, for you so richly deserve them!

[coraliesolange]

If you're really this afraid and guilty maybe you could try to back out slowly.  NC is a choice that you have to make, it isn't just a thing that happens, so if you aren't ready then it isn't going to happen.  Maybe you could limit contact to an hour a week when you go visit your grandpa or something.

[losingconfidence]

Thank you, all.

What I want is to be able to believe and deal with my traumatic memories without feeling guilty for going against my parents and without hearing their voices in my head telling me I'm lying or experiencing false memory syndrome. I would also like the freedom to say I was raped without worrying about implicating them and their inevitably hostile reactions to that. I don't want to deal with their transphobic comments about my best friend or their "advice" which basically amounts to "be normal."

The problem is that I keep thinking that they aren't abusive enough to make it okay to leave. Like... . a lot of people talk about their parents just hating their guts and being mean and spiteful 24/7. My parents aren't like that. In fact, sometimes they're very nice and amicable but it's the overall thing where I never know what side of them I'm going to get thing that makes it impossible to stay. That and the fact that they don't support me at all in dealing with the sexual trauma and in fact lie to cover it up.

[coraliesolange]

The fact that you never know what you're going to get is part of the abuse.  It causes fear and anxiety, confusion and so on.

[chickadee]

The problem is that I keep thinking that they aren't abusive enough to make it okay to leave.

This is exactly what abusive parents want you to believe.  They downplay and rationalize their abusive behavior and then criticize you to distract you into thinking that you're really the one to blame, and they are VERY good at this.  My parents always tried to make me think that all of our conflicts were 100% my fault, especially my mother.  She was so good at criticizing me, which worked well for her because it distracted me so that I couldn't try to suggest that she should bear some of the responsibility for our relationship problems.  She was a master when it came to using guilt to make me feel terrible about myself.  The biggest problem for me was that I couldn't think straight.  Logically, there is no way that maintaining a good parent/child relationship should be 100% the child's responsibility, it's just not fair, but that is how it was in my dysfunctional family and that belief was handed down to the younger generations. 

Like... . a lot of people talk about their parents just hating their guts and being mean and spiteful 24/7. My parents aren't like that. In fact, sometimes they're very nice and amicable but it's the overall thing where I never know what side of them I'm going to get thing that makes it impossible to stay. That and the fact that they don't support me at all in dealing with the sexual trauma and in fact lie to cover it up.

  People with personality disorders can behave completely normal at times.  Their disorder is not always apparent and they can be very nice and loving at times, and not always just because they are trying to fool you.  I believe that at least some of the love my parents expressed to me from time to time was genuine.  BUT that disordered personality is always lurking beneath the surface, no matter how kind they are being, and it will pop up again eventually and there's nothing you can do to stop it.  Living with that kind of stress is very bad for you, both mentally and physically, and you don't deserve that. 

The fact that they refuse to validate your pain regarding your traumatic experience must be incredibly painful for you, and I'm really sorry for that.  I strongly suspect that I might have been sexually abused when I was very little, but I have no solid memory of it, and I only tried to talk to my mother about it once, and wow, her lack of interest and concern for me was appalling, so I have some idea of how you feel. :'(

I think that eventually you will decide enough is enough because your situation with your parents is unlikely to change for the better.  I'll tell you the truth, the first year of NC was very hard for me.  I actually had physical reactions to it, like my heart constantly beating irregularly,  just to name one.  But getting away from my parents was definitely one of the best things I've ever done for myself, because without their negative influence I was finally able to think clearly enough to see that I'm not a terrible person and their situation is a direct result of the choices they have made for themselves, and I'm not the one who bears responsibility for that... . Best wishes, Chickadee.

[Lise]

Dear losingconfidence,

I believe, I completely understand your fears, I had all the same ones when I was considering NC, the mere thought made me sick with fears of all the terrible consequences there might be from what I couldn't help to think of as my betrayal, the final act that would once and for all prove to the world that she'd been right all along, I was a crazy, ungrateful, selfish daughter.

I guess the final veil fell from my eyes when she sent me a letter so full of mean, untrue accusations that I finally realized she'd never be the mother, I'd wished for, no matter how hard I'd try, she'd never be able to like me, and there was nothing I could do about that.

I gathered up all my courage, wrote her a note stating that I would not tolerate being talked to that way anymore, and that she shouldn't contact me ever again. My head went all-in with fantasies about all the horrible things that almost certainly would happen, if I sent the letter. I have a vivid imagination, that isn't always a blessing. 

In the days following sending the letter, the guilt intensified, I had nightmares, panic attacks, didn't answer my phone, stayed away from the windows, and looked carefully down the road before I went outside. ... . But it got better, the fear subsided and gave way to an amazing feeling of freedom and strength. None of my fantasies came true, they were, after all, just fantasies originated in the mind of a scared, little girl.

I only wish I'd done this 20 years ago. 

I'm sharing this in the hope that it might be helpful to see that there can be something good in wait if one is able to act in spite of the fear and the guilt.

All the best, I hope you find the solution that'll work best for you

Lise