She got a new job - advice needed.

[maxsterling]

I fear a potentially rough few weeks ahead, and could use some advice.  She got hired yesterday for a job in social work as a case manager.  She starts in two weeks.  Personally, I think this could be a job she could be good at and enjoy, but then again, I don't have a BPD brain. 

Some background - She's been living with me a year and had 3 jobs.  Two paying, one volunteer.  She hasn't lasted more than 2 months at any of them.  Every time she tries to work, it she becomes irritable and depressed, lashes out at me, hates her boss, until she eventually quits.  A teaching job last summer stressed her out enough she wound up in the hospital, and hasn't worked a paying job since. 

So here's what happened:  Over the past few months she finally has gotten some social services for herself, including disability, and eligibility for training classes and therapies.  One training class made her eligible for working in a social work field either with peer support or case management.  She started feeling the urge to start working again, so she interviewed of Friday.  Of course, she obsessed all week before the interview, and all weekend kept obsessing, saying she hoped she got the job.   Yesterday morning, they called and said she got the job.   By lunch time, the anxiety was already setting in.  She was debating whether to take the job.  She was worrying about how she would manage her schedule with the new job.  She was complaining that the pay was not that good, and that at 38 she should have more money.  She was worrying about anything and everything.

Thinks kept getting worse as the day wore on.  By nightfall she was worrying about how she would get to AA meetings, to therapy, what her cubicle would be like, how to manage her health care, her disability money, what to wear, how to exercise.  She woke up at 5am this morning and claimed she could not shut her brain off and was worrying about everything.  She claimed she wished she was "normal". 

So here is where I need help.  I want her to work at some point, not so much for the money but just to show me she can take care of some of her own needs, and to show me she can handle some stress.  Personally, I think she should start part-time just 10-20 hours per week somewhere, just to prove to herself she can handle it, but she's feels too much pressure over money (for no reason other than shame).  I think for the future of this relationship I need to see her handle some kind of job.  I'm capable of picking up the slack, but not the whole rope.  But if yesterday afternoon and this morning are any indication, things could be going down that bad road again, and I fear I need to brace myself for another melt down or hospitalization.

She is constantly asking me what she should do.  I have a hard time giving advice.  I've told her that, and that I don't want her to make decisions based upon my advice.  But she can't make decisions on her own.  How should I approach this situation so that I give her the right amount of support without being enabling?  How do I protect myself against what I think is likely to happen?  I want her to choose her own path, yet she is constantly asking for my advice.  What should I do here?  How do I reassure her that getting a job is a good thing to be proud of?  How to I support her once she has a job in such a way that she can meet her own needs, without doing everything for her?  Trust me, she's going to be all over me again to take care of all the household needs, and I've never felt comfortable giving her "chores", despite that is what she asks me to do.  Yet, I feel the only way to handle this is to have set schedules with set duties.  Thoughts here?

[Waddams]

Thoughts:

1.  She needs to be able to work.  Every needs that.  She's afraid of failing.  Failure = bad = will be left because not worth anything.  Just tell her that she's strong enough to succeed and figure everything out as she goes.  She doesn't need to have all the answers to her concerns at the start.  Sometimes it's okay to just give it a go, realize tomorrow will come no matter how today goes, and you'll be there to wake up.  If things don't go well on a particular day, tomorrow is always a chance to grow and figure it out and increase your own strength of what you can do.  She has opportunity to grow, the employer recognizes it, you do too.  It's okay for her to do so as well.

2.  Sometimes lower paying jobs are the obstacles we have to clear to get to higher paying jobs.  She has a chance to take this job, learn it, get good at it, and then move up and on to a higher paying job.  It's a building process and she's got a chance to start.  It's a lot more than what a lot of people have these days, and again is recognition by the employer she has potential and talent.  At my job, we never hire based on someone as they are today.  It's always what else can they can also grow into?  The ones that get hired are the ones that seem to have the highest ceiling.

3.  Tell her you want to see her succeed.  You know you'll be proud of her, and you want to see her and be along for the ride as she succeeds.  You're looking forward to seeing her achieve good things and you know she won't fail.

4.  As to not wanting to tell her what to do, I understand that.  Frame it in terms as not you telling her what to do, but you two together coming up by mutual agreement whose going to do what.  You can propose things, she can agree, she can propose alternatives, etc.  But come up with it together, and not one person telling the other what to do. 

And for chores - again, work it out mutually.  I usually ask/propose a chore/duty roster for me, kids, and fiancee, and always tell her that it's just a proposal.  It's not an order.  Change whatever she wants.  But just give me something I can go by so both her and I know expectations.  It's to keep us on the same page and provide a better level of "togetherness" for us.  But she always has to buy in first or I don't proceed.  One of my boundaries for me is that I'm not a dictator, and I can let the dishes go unwashed for a REALLY long time if we can't agree on chores.  LOL!

How's that for thoughts?  It's basically, setting boundaries for you, building her up, letting her know that it's okay for other things to not get done like before, and not taking responsibility for her at the same time.  Lets her know she's safe, supported, and has a mutually supporting partner that believes in her.

[SweetCharlotte]

Wow, that is good news that she has found a real career position.

Being a case worker is a fine job with a future. I think certain pwBPDs feel comfortable with it. Many people in social work have issues themselves. As long as they are aware of their vulnerabilities, they can put it to use to help others, and that in turn makes them feel better.

I hope that she keeps moving from strength to strength. She will be much less dependent on you soon.

[In_n_Out]

Max, if you can buy the kindle version of the book "Loving Someone with BPD", (www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder-Control-ebook/dp/B005JFB3OS/r), read the chapter titled "Things are awful but don't worry... . I'm handling it".  It covers *exactly* what you are asking.  It's much too long for me to summarize so I can only suggest that book.  It has many other great pieces of info in it as well too.

[seeking balance]

Max, if you can buy the kindle version of the book "Loving Someone with BPD", (www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder-Control-ebook/dp/B005JFB3OS/r), read the chapter titled "Things are awful but don't worry... . I'm handling it".  It covers *exactly* what you are asking.  It's much too long for me to summarize so I can only suggest that book.  It has many other great pieces of info in it as well too.

This is very very good advice for this specific thread and pretty much everyone who has found their way to this board.

[Surnia]

Hi max,

good news that she found a job again.

I hear your worries about a bad outcome this one too, also bc you see like it started yet again.

What about validation? She is struggling with "not being good enough", with fear.

"Gosh, honey, I would nervous too with a new job." And hold her hand or her. "You will do a great job."

I think, your wife is courageous. Not everyone is trying in the working world in her shoes.

And sometimes we have to repeat things... . it needs often more than one time.

Yes, good advice about the book.

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  It truly helps.  I'll add that book to the list of other books I should pick up. 

Last night she was better than I expected her to be.  She sounded optimistic about taking the job, but still not enthusiastic.  I was expecting the beginnings of a complete meltdown.  Different story this morning, though.  She had an early doctor appointment, and a bunch of other errands to take care of.  And this turned into a lot of stomping around and swearing, claiming that she shouldn't have taken this job because she is already stressed out over having to get her paperwork in to them, stressed because she doesn't know when her first paycheck will be, angry because she is late to the doctor, and claiming that if their HR department is this disorganized already that the job will be a headache.

uggh.  Well, at least I expected it.

So, it sounds like she is already blaming her new employer for her stress.  And she is already setting up her excuse when things don't go well.  Of course, she still blames HR of her last place of employment for making that job too stressful.  She's already expecting to fail, so it will probably be another self-fulfilling prophecy.  I'll do my best to support and encourage her, maybe try to be a little proactive.  If failing is inevitable, I need to let her try and fail, though, and hold onto my wits while it is happening.  I'll keep my fingers crossed for a better result, though, because I think this is a job that could be real good for her. 

My issue now is that I feel myself projecting into the future.  For this relationship to go forward, I really NEED to have her handle some responsibilities.  And this is IMPERITIVE if we were to have a child - something she wants.  That's a conversation we need to have sometime soon.  The problem is, to feel comfortable raising a child with her, I need her to change behaviors that I think are impossible for her to change.

[seeking balance]

My issue now is that I feel myself projecting into the future.  For this relationship to go forward, I really NEED to have her handle some responsibilities.  And this is IMPERITIVE if we were to have a child - something she wants.  That's a conversation we need to have sometime soon.  The problem is, to feel comfortable raising a child with her, I need her to change behaviors that I think are impossible for her to change.

Max,

Why throw this into the mix right now?

You know she is having anxiety, she is starting a new job - do you honestly think a conversation about having kids right now is in either of your best interest?

One of the best advice that I have seen on these boards in terms of our own mindfulness is SLOW DOWN.

Look to the right hand side - Choosing a Path.  Where are you? 

Peace,

SB

[maxsterling]

Thanks, SB -

The thing is, I DON'T want to bring up marriage and kids now.  I've been avoiding the subject ever since she got physically abusive with me one night last summer.  I'd be happy if she would just work on taking care of herself.  But the problem is, she can't.  She brings up marriage or children about once per week.  I've tired to have calm discussions with her about these subjects, but her emotions take over within a minute, and then my reaction is to disengage to avoid a full blown rage.  She DESPERATELY wants both, and NOW.  When I say we need to have this discussion soon, I mean that discussion is inevitable, and it's really not fair for either of us to keep going on forever and avoid the elephant in the room.  And this is why I am having a hard time choosing a path.  I'd be okay with committing to staying if she would be okay with keeping things as-is for right now.  But it doesn't seem like she can just take time to work on herself - everything has to have a future purpose that involves marriage or children.  And thus, the "undecided".  I don't know what I would be committing to.  I could commit to stay with the status quo and have no expectations, but I don't think I can commit to marriage and children. 

[seeking balance]

Thanks, SB -

The thing is, I DON'T want to bring up marriage and kids now.  I've been avoiding the subject ever since she got physically abusive with me one night last summer.  I'd be happy if she would just work on taking care of herself.  But the problem is, she can't.  She brings up marriage or children about once per week. 

Thanks for clarifying - I thought this was you wanting to bring it up.

Tactically, what is your boundary around this?

Try using DEARMAN here and set your boundary regarding discussing children

But it doesn't seem like she can just take time to work on herself - everything has to have a future purpose that involves marriage or children.  And thus, the "undecided".  I don't know what I would be committing to.  I could commit to stay with the status quo and have no expectations, but I don't think I can commit to marriage and children. 

Sounds to me like this has you square in Step 4 - Embracing the REALITIES of BPD.

Can you see that she is looking for stability externally to manage her internal chaos?

Please do not hesitate - purchase this immediately.  Right now, you have to understand who you are in this relationship (step 3) so that you can clearly make decisions.

"Loving Someone with BPD", (www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder-Control-ebook/dp/B005JFB3OS/r),

Posting on the boards and supporting others can be helpful in stopping the bleeding; it sounds like now you are in the true midst of steps 3 & 4 which is going to require a bit more work on your part to understand at a deeper level the reality of BPD.

She is scared, marriage & kids feels secure to her - try using DEARMAN or SET here and practice the conversation with us - the ones who make it, really do this here and it does help.

Peace,

SB

[SweetCharlotte]

She is 38. It is only natural for her to bring up the subject of having a baby every day.

Whether a woman has BPD or not, at this age if she has a male partner and she always intended to be a mother, she will bring this up daily if not on the hour. Believe me, I know 

[maxsterling]

Thanks again.

SB - I'll pick up that book as soon as I can. 

SweetCharlotte - If she weren't BPD, we could probably discuss the situation rationally. And that seems to be the problem here.  She's 38, feels her clock ticking, and wants to rush the relationship.  Meanwhile, she has BPD, and "rushing" the relationship means manipulation and guilt tripping.  And that makes me want to take it slower because things are so unstable.  And this keeps me undecided, because I wonder if I am in a no-win situation and now can't just take things slow.  She wants a child.  I can respect that.  And if she was stable, perhaps I would want that, too.  But she isn't stable, and probably will never be.  If I knew she would be okay with possibly not having a child depending on her stability, I'd commit to staying in this relationship.  But if she insists on a child no matter what - that may push me to leaving.  And I can't really discuss this with her now, because she is too unstable (she got so frustrated today that she threw her papers all over the floor and screamed at the cat), and if I even so much as hint that I have reservations, the *real* ugliness will come back. 

So yeah, I am in step 3 on "choosing a path".  I am recognizing who I am now within this relationship, and seeing if I can live with that.  I don't think I am in a place where I can get back to what my priorities are in life (such as a child).  The embers from the fires of the last year are still burring too hot.

[DiamondSW]

You know the deal

Don't even think about having a child with an unstable/dysregulated BPD.  They can't even look after themselves, let alone a baby. 

Marriages can be annulled after a huge expense and emotional pain.  Children can't be. 

My exBPDgf wanted a child.  She had no career or anything of value, no home, savings etc, so this was something 'she' could have without having to prepare for -someone else could do all that (me). 

Urgh, don't do it.  Children need 2 happy parents or at least 1 healthy, loving one.  A BPD mum and a depressed, belittled father is not a good plan. 

[In_n_Out]

Not to derail this thread but a quick note on the "Loving someone with BPD" book.  I was reading it earlier today and came across a part that talks about some common physical ailments that BPD's have.  One of them is Interstitial Cystitis‎.  My BPD ex has IC.  She says that doctors couldn't figure out what she had and she did some research online and figured it was IC. IC is fairly rare and many doctors fail to diagnose it properly.  So long story short, I told my ex that wow, the book about LOVING someone with BPD mentions IC.  I sent that in a text with some validation and extra goodies sprinkled around it.  No response.

So just a while ago, my ex was over and she used my bathroom... . er, she went in to my library, and came out with the "Loving" book.  I had my bookmark on the page that talks about IC.  She sat on my bed and started reading and she's mumbling "holy $hit!... . why?  How?".  And then she reads on about the jobs part and how BPD's can handle the task that the job asks for in many cases, it's their interpersonal skills where they fail at.  My ex says "I get along great with people.  New customers come in and I greet them and... . " and I said "no baby, what's its saying is that you can do the job at hand.  You are great with people.  But certain people, fellow employees or usually a boss, will trigger you and then you get emotional.  You get emotionally dysregulated."  She said "and that's when I go in to the bathroom and sit on the floor with my knees to my chest crying".  "Yes" I said.  

She read a few more pages from the book but obviously it's like looking in the mirror to see this horrid reflection of yourself so she could only take so much but the little that she did read was very enlightening for her and it was a GREAT opening to our discussion about her job and about how I just didn't understand her and her emotions and how I would get frustrated and then say things that I would instantly want to take back but it was because I was protecting myself.  It was a great conversation and that book opened the door for that to happen.  

So yeah, grab the ebook version for $5 or $9, whatever it is.  Or wait and grab the paperback version but it is really a great book for all of this.  Maybe I should put it in a book review here.  So sorry if I hijacked the thread a little bit but there is some relevance here to your story Max and the job thing and her competence and your validation/invalidation of her competence and how to approach that is all in there for you.

Edit to add: she just sent a text: "can you order me a copy of that book?  I'll pay you back for it". 

[maxsterling]

in_n_out - perfectly fine to derail this, because it does bring up an interesting side discussion.  Did it also list fibromyalgia as being associated with BPD?  My GF complains of that, and it seems many of the women she knows through AA also have that.  My GF is a bit of a hypochondriac, too.  She wants to go to the doctor about everything, and wants me to do the same.  So if I have a slightly sore back from doing yard work that a couple of advil will solve - to her is a major issue and she insists I go to a doctor.  There is always something ailing her, and I don't think we have had a day in the past year without her complaining of something (this doesn't include depression or anxiety).  If it's not pain, it's dry skin, wrinkles, stomach pain, breathing issues, or teeth.  She even does the same with the pets.  She will hear her guinea pig make noise and then ask me what the noise was, and ask me if we should take her to the vet.  I can't imagine if we had a kid - she would want to take him or her to the doctor every time he coughed. 

I'm not sure if this ir rooted in the lack of identity or the fear of abandonment, but she generally worries about the unknown future, and can't seem to have any faith that things are fine.  That's why she is worried about the job - she's constantly worried about the worst case scenario.  Tonight, she was trying to figure out how much money she would take home per month, and asking me if she would need to get a second job.

!

A second job?  I wish she could just concentrate on keeping the first one longer than 3 months.  She also said that she wished I would get a raise so that we could have more money. 

[In_n_Out]

Yes it does.  This book will really open your eyes and if she feels comfortable getting some glimpses of it, she will feel like she is reading a journal about herself that someone else wrote.  I ordered my 2nd copy for my ex last night.  Seriously, it was $12 new in paperback.

Here's that page that my ex and I read together last night:

If you've reached that point, the first thing I need to tell you is that some of the crises are not of your loved one's creation.  People with BPD often have catastrophic physical problems.  There is a constellation of problems called the depressive five - TMJ, migraines, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), and interstitial cystitis - that is very common among those with BPD, along with myasthenia gravis and rheumatoid arthritis.  Physical pain and discomfort make all of us more vulnerable to emotion, and as you can imagine, for someone who is highly emotionally vulnerable these physiological conditions just make things worse, making additional crises even more likely.  Physical conditions like these also may cause your loved one financial stress, job stress, and relationship stress, leading to crisis from those secondary problems.

Unfortunately, those with BPD seem to be acutely sensitive to physical discomfort and react emotionally to it, which makes them talk about their conditions all the time.  Because of apparent competence, people with BPD can describe their physical and emotional pain without showing how bad they feel.  THis makes people question its authenticity and the person's motivation for talking about it.  Naturally, this can increase tensions between others and the person who has BPD plus a physical problem like one of the depressive five.  And it sometimes leads observers to suspect that the physical problems are either nonexistent or greatly exaggerated.  If you've fallen prey to that suspicion, rest assured that fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, IBS and myasthenia gravis are considered "true" diagnoses.  And your loved one is unlikely to be overstating her pain, physical or emotional.

My ex read those exact words and she was nodding like a bobble-head doll saying "that's why you always said that it was pyscho-sematic or was jus looking for attention.  Those words hurt me so much".  And I had to validate her emotions and then let her know that "baby, I just didn't know these things.  I knew you were in some kind of discomfort but I couldn't of possibly understood all the complexities of it until now".  And we really bonded last night after that.

[In_n_Out]

in_n_out - perfectly fine to derail this, because it does bring up an interesting side discussion.  Did it also list fibromyalgia as being associated with BPD?  My GF complains of that, and it seems many of the women she knows through AA also have that.  My GF is a bit of a hypochondriac, too.  She wants to go to the doctor about everything, and wants me to do the same.  So if I have a slightly sore back from doing yard work that a couple of advil will solve - to her is a major issue and she insists I go to a doctor.  There is always something ailing her, and I don't think we have had a day in the past year without her complaining of something (this doesn't include depression or anxiety).  If it's not pain, it's dry skin, wrinkles, stomach pain, breathing issues, or teeth.  She even does the same with the pets.  She will hear her guinea pig make noise and then ask me what the noise was, and ask me if we should take her to the vet.  I can't imagine if we had a kid - she would want to take him or her to the doctor every time he coughed. 

I'm not sure if this ir rooted in the lack of identity or the fear of abandonment, but she generally worries about the unknown future, and can't seem to have any faith that things are fine.  That's why she is worried about the job - she's constantly worried about the worst case scenario.  Tonight, she was trying to figure out how much money she would take home per month, and asking me if she would need to get a second job.

!

A second job?  I wish she could just concentrate on keeping the first one longer than 3 months.  She also said that she wished I would get a raise so that we could have more money. 

In more direct response, my ex is *exactly* the same as yours.  I am constantly her massage therapist because her back and shoulders are sore (stress) and she doesn't want a light rub, it's deep tissue massaging that she wants.  And yes, we've been to the doctor so many times together and her on her own since I've known her for various ailments.  And just last night, I mentioned that I have a doctor's appointment.  One of my BP meds is out of prescription and the doc just wants to check on me before re-prescribing.  No big deal.  My ex went in to a flurry "what time is your appointment?  Make sure that you get a full physical.  Have him check your prostrate.  You know that runs in your family.  I just worry about you". 

And it was itchy skin for my ex last night. 

[cosmonaut]

I'd add another vote for "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" by Shari Manning.  It was the first book I read after discovering BPD and realizing what I had, unknowingly, been dealing with the past few years with my ex.  I wish I had read it years ago.  I think it might have saved both of us much suffering.  We might even still be together.  Who knows?  Anyway, the book is excellent.  It's very compassionate toward pwBPD which is something that is not often seen.  I think it provides a very lucid description of what types of thinking occur in the minds of pwBPD.  I certainly gained a whole new view on my ex's behavior.

In_n_Out, my ex also suffers from NUMEROUS health problems, despite being under 30.  I about fell over when I read that too.  My ex also has IC, which I was not familiar with before meeting her, and she even has an implant to control it - that's pretty much unheard of in someone so young.  She also has severe inflammatory bowl disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and epilepsy.  She really does have some very serious health problems.  That's in addition to the stable of mental health and addiction issues.  I was also struck by how someone so young and so beautiful could be so sick.  It's part of what drew me in.  I wanted to help her.   It's something I tried to help her with over and over and over again in our relationship, with only limited success.  Honestly, I still want to help her.  I know, I know - that's one of the pitfalls, but it's still how I feel.  She really does need help - badly.  Unfortunately, I'm not even being talked to right now - for a reason known only to my ex herself.  There's so much from "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" that I want to put into practice.  I don't know if I'll ever get the chance.  It sounds like it's really helping you in your relationship with your ex, In_n_Out.