why am I undecided?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I sometimes wonder if I'm also suffering something more than PTSD (from living with her... )

My wife is just the worst person I've ever met.  I guess I sympathize with her- she had a horrible childhood, and mine was generally happy (no abuse, very typical middle class family), but at the same time, I just hate her.  Parts of her I cannot even figure out if it's the BPD, her upbringing, or just who she is...   She's lazy, unmotivated, has almost no life skills, no social skills, and is a complete drain on me both emotionally and financially.  Yes, we have a child together, and that has a huge impact on the decision for some unique reasons, but at the end of the day, what I have is a woman who doesn't cook, doesn't clean, does the bare minimum with child care, and can't keep a job.

Every job she gets, she finds someone who she cannot get along with and ultimately gets angry and quits because of them, or gets fired.  Nobody will even hire her now.  She will sit at home doing nothing all day, but have every light in the house turned on, every TV in every room, and cranks the heat to 80 in the winter and the AC down to 65 in the summer, causing electric bills as high as our monthly mortgage payment.  We're drained, and struggling.  I've begged her to keep the job she's had for almost a year now, but she keeps having problems with people, and keeps calling out sick.  Any excuse, including car accidents (many, many accidents) keeps her from having to work, and our insurance is also as high as our car payment.  Her car is held together by duct tape and rope in some places from all the wrecks... I can't afford to fix it.

I'm just totally depressed right now... she's completely incapable of surviving if I leave, and I'm just too nice to do that to somebody, but I truly wish she would just vanish from my life.  From our lives.  She's not fit to be a parent, or a wife.

[Kabooma]

I sometimes wonder if I'm also suffering something more than PTSD (from living with her... )

My wife is just the worst person I've ever met.  I guess I sympathize with her- she had a horrible childhood, and mine was generally happy (no abuse, very typical middle class family), but at the same time, I just hate her.  Parts of her I cannot even figure out if it's the BPD, her upbringing, or just who she is...   She's lazy, unmotivated, has almost no life skills, no social skills, and is a complete drain on me both emotionally and financially.  Yes, we have a child together, and that has a huge impact on the decision for some unique reasons, but at the end of the day, what I have is a woman who doesn't cook, doesn't clean, does the bare minimum with child care, and can't keep a job.

Every job she gets, she finds someone who she cannot get along with and ultimately gets angry and quits because of them, or gets fired.  Nobody will even hire her now.  She will sit at home doing nothing all day, but have every light in the house turned on, every TV in every room, and cranks the heat to 80 in the winter and the AC down to 65 in the summer, causing electric bills as high as our monthly mortgage payment.  We're drained, and struggling.  I've begged her to keep the job she's had for almost a year now, but she keeps having problems with people, and keeps calling out sick.  Any excuse, including car accidents (many, many accidents) keeps her from having to work, and our insurance is also as high as our car payment.  Her car is held together by duct tape and rope in some places from all the wrecks... I can't afford to fix it.

I'm just totally depressed right now... she's completely incapable of surviving if I leave, and I'm just too nice to do that to somebody, but I truly wish she would just vanish from my life.  From our lives.  She's not fit to be a parent, or a wife.

[GreenMango]

Have you tried talking about the things the family needs from her?

[sharlock]

You probably stay because of your child.  Even though your wife may not be much of a parent, she's still your child's mother.  Maybe you're afraid you'd hurt your child if you went through a divorce.  My guess is your child is already feeling abandoned by her mother.

Talking about the problem wasn't enough for me. Now, I'm in counseling and it has really helped.  I've really been able to separate myself from my friend with BPD.  Allowing *me* to make choices versus my emotions making choices for me. I hope you're with a good counselor. A lot of the tools on this site are very helpful like" Why "Choosing a path; Why should I choose".

[tired-of-it-all]

It is easy for me to see what you should do; however, I cannot take my own advice.  Your situation is very similar to mine.  My wife will not work.  Has poor social skills.  Deliberately sabotages social situations that might lead to her having a job.  Is neglectful of our children.  Is down right abusive to some of them when I am not around.

I too feel sorry for her because of her childhood.  In my heart, I am afraid of what will happen to her if I leave.  I know that I can gain custody of the children.  I know that my grown kids will testify on my behalf. 

My counselor says that she will survive.  She actually says that my wife will just find another man and make him keep her up.  She says that my wife, like most BPD's, will be whatever she needs to be until she catches the next sucker.  That is a hard pill to swallow but I am sure it is true.  My daughters say that she will hook up with someone else in less than two weeks.

With that said, I still haven't pulled the plug.

When you figure out why we do this, please let me know.  I don't understand myself.

Good luck my friend.

[Kabooma]

Thanks for all the responses.  I guess I'm really frustrated.  The decision used to be easier, in the sense that she used to be mean to me and my anger helped me understand what had to be done, but when the breaking point seemed near and inevitable, it's like she knew... and reached out for help.  She's been seeing a psychiatrist since then, who has prescribed drugs.  The drugs she's on have changed her dramatically in some ways, but the BPD still comes through.  She's much more docile now, but still has all the same social sabotage issues at her work.  She would likely have the same issues with friends, if she had any left.

When I say more docile, I mean it too- she's always apologetic, and has become increasingly insightful, but to the point of depression.  Most of her issues over the last two weeks have been even worse than the anger issues- she's gotten upset and left work many times.  They finally got sick of her and I was sure they would fire her, but they threw her a bone really by only demoting her and reducing her hours... which to me is a bright side compared to being fired, but of course she crumpled into a crying mass of insanity, and I'm really struggling to console her. 

And this is why I'm so on the fence...

I KNOW most of these problems she's brought onto herself, through her nasty demeanor, social sabotage, and the plain fact that she's just abrasive to most people, and at the first hint of being treated poorly, she mentally declares them as an enemy and will forever cause problems with them from that day forward.

How do I console her when I know this?  I've struggled with times when I wanted to tell her that she's BPD, but in the end, I know it won't help and would likely just make things worse.  Nothing seems to make her episodes better because she immediately wants validation, and frames the circumstances in a way that makes me look uncaring or that I don't love her if I don't agree with her / her circumstances.

Ugh... such a nightmare.  Her Psy clearly doesn't realize it's BPD and treats her for depression and anxiety disorder, which I'm starting to think isn't working.

[Kabooma]

Have you tried talking about the things the family needs from her?

Yes, a while ago, so now she claims her anxiety is worse because of the added pressure that she's letting her family down.

She has the victim role down to a science.  I'm not really witty, so I fail to find workable responses in the middle of the discussions.  I've tried to prep myself by reading here and elsewhere on tips to handle her "ways", but every time I use a method, she just switches up and hits me from a different side.  I fear she's just too far gone to help.

[GreenMango]

Unfortunately if she has BPD drugs alone don't resolve it.  The drugs can help stabilize the most extreme mood issues but the learning of new life skills falls into the realm of therapy (dbt is clinical proven with BPD).

How involved are you with her treatment plan?   

[Kabooma]

Unfortunately if she has BPD drugs alone don't resolve it.  The drugs can help stabilize the most extreme mood issues but the learning of new life skills falls into the realm of therapy (dbt is clinical proven with BPD).

How involved are you with her treatment plan?   

Not very, her psy excludes me from her sessions, so I have zero input.  Of course my wife thinks I'm the problem and wants me to go to marriage counseling, but reading how many MC's don't recognize BPD which seems to additionally make things worse, I've been standoffish about seeing a MC.  I'm thinking of seeing a counselor on my own just to get some direct outside help.  I simply cannot take much more of this... she's playing the victim and I'm apparently the problem... it's so damn frustrating and stressful.

[Kabooma]

Since I'm airing all this out, I might as well state the following as well.

I mention how frustrated and stressed I am, but I'm also angry- very, very angry.  I've done everything I can for so many years, supported her, coddled her, fought for her.  I stood by her, and even when I didn't agree (most of the time), much of that time I've taken the brunt of her anger and drama.  I'm just so tired of it.  I have the stable job, stable relationships with friends and co-workers.  I feel like I'm always cleaning up her messes, including having to console her and stroke her ego every time she gets down.  Which is often.

Part of me wishes she would just leave me, in whatever way she chooses.  Leave us, that is.  She's incapable of being a good parent, much less a dependable provider.  So much rage within me... I've been passive all these years, but now I just want to hulk-smash everything in sight.

Ah well, just venting really- it is what it is.

[GreenMango]

Being angry on top of being tired is pretty common for most of that came here in the beginning.  Resolving that ( with your own therapist can be a plus ) is going to help.  Usually getting on a path of handling things differently ... . communication and boundaries from the staying board lessons give some breathing room.

There's a mixed review on marriage counseling.   Some try it to open the door to expand both parties individual therapy.  Some find it becomes a forum where they get beat up more.   But definitely your own therapist is must. 

Want reason not to start your own therapy?  Have you read the staying board lessons?

[Kabooma]

I have read most of the material here, as well as other sites.  To me, it's all too generic.  For instance, I will break down the first part 'stop the bleeding' and how it fails to help me:

1: accept the futility of the cycle of conflict

Believe me- I did that a LONG time ago.  But she hasn't and doesn't.

2: Identify the words or actions that upset you

(and) 3: visualize how you could better respond the next time you are confronted with those triggers

Well, that's the pickle isn't it?  What triggers me IS the conflict.  That she's unreasonable, over-bearing, and hyper-focused on her problems that she ultimately created for herself through sabotage, reckless behaviors, and completely backwards thinking.  But usually the triggers are when she splits on me or pulls the martyr complex (painting herself as the victim).  So how do I respond to those things?  I sure would like to know because I've been thinking about it for years, and I've never found the right answers, other than to agree with her on EVERYTHING, and allow her to use all those excuses to support her poor decisions like:  Not working, not caring for our child, not helping with household duties, not contributing whatsoever to the relationship, home, livelihood, etc. of our family.

The ideas in 2 and 3 just don't work.

4: Rehearse

Rehearse what, failure?  I do that pretty well in the live environment.

S.E.T. (Sympathy, Empathy, Truth).

Ok, I already do and always have done the sympathy and empathy.  It's the truth part that kills me every time.  No matter how passively or aggressively I present the truth, and no matter how little or how much of it I deliver- if it differs in any way from the way she sees things, then she will immediately split black and now I'm part of the problem, moreso now because I just made it worse, making her feel worse, and now everything is more my fault.  It's like a feedback loop.  I tried just this morning to "suggest" an alternate way to look at todays specific misfortune, and I got a hateful and resentful remark in return, pushed away, and bad attitude since.  This will last days, and that's only if I eventually give in and apologize and re-affirm all of her beliefs are correct in how she sees it.  It's futile.

I do agree with the philosophy behind "stop the bleeding", but there's no specific examples on specific circumstances, so people like me are left to feel around in the dark for a light-switch that doesn't really seem to exist.

I'm also starting to realize that combined with depression, GAD, PTSD, and god knows what else- I may just be in an impossible situation. 

[ugghh]

Kabooma,

I followed your path for 25 years of marriage - until I didn't... .

First and foremost, I cannot recommend enough that you get a counselor just for you.  Not marriage counseling.  To be honest many of us who are in r/s with pwBPD over long periods of times eventually get to the point where we are just worn out.  Tired of doing the dance of validating thoughts and actions that your rational brain is screaming out for you to just be honest and tell the pwBPD that they bring their grief on themselves.

I spent about 18 months in counseling until I reached a decision that I could not stay with her.  I told my counselor that I thought it would take another 18 months before I worked up the courage to follow through on the divorce - it took about 30 days.  My counselor and I had a frank discussion about it and I asked him if my experience was common.  He said it was not uncommon for nice people who come to true realization.  Ultimately you must process and answer some questions that will help you reach a decision:

1) How likely is it that my pwBPD will change their behaviors?

2) Do I believe I have tried everything reasonably possible to salvage this relationship?

3) Am I willing to live the rest of my life with this reality?

For me working through 1 and 2 took the 18 months, and 3 took the 30 days.  Essentially you must give yourself permission to consider the alternatives.  For me I had 3 late teen kids to consider.  However, over the years each of them individually came to me and said mom is crazy, why do you stay?  I came to realize that if I am doing all the work anyway, it is actually easier to be a good parent without the drama and complications of my uBPDw. 

[waverider]

My partner is identical to yours except now I dont want her to apply for jobs she believes she can do as she will start workplace drama and get sacked/leave for the same reasons you mention, probably within the first week.

Before I knew about BPD and especially before she acknowledged it, there was high conflict and projection everywhere. Her coping mechanisms were extreme alcoholism and medication abuse.

So whats changed. I reduced the rescuing/enabling, though there is still some of this. I stopped making things worse using all the things you can learn here. Most importantly I put me at No 1. Rebuilding my life and having fun became number 1.

My partner also can now by very insightful about the disorder now she accepts it, but the behavior is still there and she seems still unable to address it properly. Wanting to attend treatment then pulling the same old no show/put on a front routine. Expecting everything to be fixed with a new pill. Soaking up the S & E, then running when the T came out. In her mind it was someone elses job to fix it not hers. It even became an excuse for behaviors. "I can't help it I have BPD, I thought you understood"

We are slowly heading in the right direction but it is slow. We have no more conflict between us as the mud flinging no longer sticks. This led to her internalizing it in turn this let to depression and self harm, endless ODs. This was necessary for her to take appropriate methods more seriously.

After stripping away all the aggro that used to be directed at me and the kids away, we get on well. Main issues now are still the lack of effort in everything, housework etc as you mention. This leaves me in more of a carer role than a partner. The hate and resentment has gone though now, replaced by periodic frustrations. Respect is something that will have to be rebuilt. Trust now has realistic limitations on it.

As she starts to stabilize, we can work on the hypochondria and pill dependency (docs seem to have  finally have woke up to this). She will rebuild a better sense of "can do" this will lead to more functionality. Contributing to house etc.

Black and white thinking leads to a perception if they can't do a good job of something, they wont even try, and cop out. They will not do anything out of obligation or responsibility alone. The fact the slack is left to you to pick up barely registers.

In short if I were you just do what you want, worry about doing what you want, and cut back on the rescuing. That just band aids the issues. Her stuff/your stuff is an important line to be aware of.

Am I happy now? Yes, because I know me far better, and I have learned to take control my life. My partner can follow me. That is now her choice not my obligation to try to make it happen. I will have a good life. If she chooses to waste hers away one day at a time, I can't control that and it will not cripple mine.

[Kabooma]

Kabooma,

I followed your path for 25 years of marriage - until I didn't... .

First and foremost, I cannot recommend enough that you get a counselor just for you.  Not marriage counseling.  To be honest many of us who are in r/s with pwBPD over long periods of times eventually get to the point where we are just worn out.  Tired of doing the dance of validating thoughts and actions that your rational brain is screaming out for you to just be honest and tell the pwBPD that they bring their grief on themselves.

I spent about 18 months in counseling until I reached a decision that I could not stay with her.  I told my counselor that I thought it would take another 18 months before I worked up the courage to follow through on the divorce - it took about 30 days.  My counselor and I had a frank discussion about it and I asked him if my experience was common.  He said it was not uncommon for nice people who come to true realization.  Ultimately you must process and answer some questions that will help you reach a decision:

1) How likely is it that my pwBPD will change their behaviors?

2) Do I believe I have tried everything reasonably possible to salvage this relationship?

3) Am I willing to live the rest of my life with this reality?

For me working through 1 and 2 took the 18 months, and 3 took the 30 days.  Essentially you must give yourself permission to consider the alternatives.  For me I had 3 late teen kids to consider.  However, over the years each of them individually came to me and said mom is crazy, why do you stay?  I came to realize that if I am doing all the work anyway, it is actually easier to be a good parent without the drama and complications of my uBPDw. 

Thanks for the insightful response Ug-

To answer:

1) How likely is it that my pwBPD will change their behaviors?

She will change for temporary periods of time, mostly when she realizes how screwed we are financially (because of her) or when I become depressed and despondent over the situation (at times, I will get so frustrated and upset about it that I simply withdraw from the emotional side of our relationship and give her zero affection).  Once I come out of my coma (when things get better), she will then revert back to her BPD self.  So the short answer is "Unlikely"

2) Do I believe I have tried everything reasonably possible to salvage this relationship?

Can anyone really say yes?  I've tried, hard.  Everything?  I guess the key term in that question is "reasonable".  I can't say that I've tried all reasonable possibilities, but what is reasonable to her and me are two different worlds as well.  Perhaps I'm over-thinking the question, but I've become so frustrated with the relationship, that I'm not willing to go as far to 'salvage' it (say, salvage the peace after a fight) than I used to.  This is the ticking time bomb to me- as every "incident" I feel just a little bit less invested in the relationship as a whole.  I'm personally wondering these days when the final straw will happen, and I just completely lose my desire to go home ever again.

3) Am I willing to live the rest of my life with this reality?

Hard to say.  I think, like you, that I need to answer 1 and 2 better to determine the answer to #3.

I do wish I could afford individual counseling, but at this time I just don't have the money.  After two months of her sabotaging herself at her job, they didn't fire her (that's a miracle in itself), she finally up and quit.  Now she's a free-loader again, which only causes even more grief for me, as she will now focus everything on me, good and bad.

[Kabooma]

My partner is identical to yours except now I dont want her to apply for jobs she believes she can do as she will start workplace drama and get sacked/leave for the same reasons you mention, probably within the first week.

Before I knew about BPD and especially before she acknowledged it, there was high conflict and projection everywhere. Her coping mechanisms were extreme alcoholism and medication abuse.

So whats changed. I reduced the rescuing/enabling, though there is still some of this. I stopped making things worse using all the things you can learn here. Most importantly I put me at No 1. Rebuilding my life and having fun became number 1.

My partner also can now by very insightful about the disorder now she accepts it, but the behavior is still there and she seems still unable to address it properly. Wanting to attend treatment then pulling the same old no show/put on a front routine. Expecting everything to be fixed with a new pill. Soaking up the S & E, then running when the T came out. In her mind it was someone elses job to fix it not hers. It even became an excuse for behaviors. "I can't help it I have BPD, I thought you understood"

We are slowly heading in the right direction but it is slow. We have no more conflict between us as the mud flinging no longer sticks. This led to her internalizing it in turn this let to depression and self harm, endless ODs. This was necessary for her to take appropriate methods more seriously.

After stripping away all the aggro that used to be directed at me and the kids away, we get on well. Main issues now are still the lack of effort in everything, housework etc as you mention. This leaves me in more of a carer role than a partner. The hate and resentment has gone though now, replaced by periodic frustrations. Respect is something that will have to be rebuilt. Trust now has realistic limitations on it.

As she starts to stabilize, we can work on the hypochondria and pill dependency (docs seem to have  finally have woke up to this). She will rebuild a better sense of "can do" this will lead to more functionality. Contributing to house etc.

Black and white thinking leads to a perception if they can't do a good job of something, they wont even try, and cop out. They will not do anything out of obligation or responsibility alone. The fact the slack is left to you to pick up barely registers.

In short if I were you just do what you want, worry about doing what you want, and cut back on the rescuing. That just band aids the issues. Her stuff/your stuff is an important line to be aware of.

Am I happy now? Yes, because I know me far better, and I have learned to take control my life. My partner can follow me. That is now her choice not my obligation to try to make it happen. I will have a good life. If she chooses to waste hers away one day at a time, I can't control that and it will not cripple mine.

Hey waverider-  I'm curious about your first sentence.  You gave up on her working?  Yet you are trying hard and slowly patching things up? It just seems like a big contrast.  I'm on the lines of thinking that she (mine) needs to figure out HOW to make things work in the workplace.  If she can't find a way to get along with co-workers, how will she ever find a way to get along with anyone else?  I can't stand that my SO doesn't have any friends, alienated family, etc...   Just curious how you are drawing the lines I guess.

[waverider]

I came to accept the extent of her disorder, exactly how and why it causes these issues. Not being able to work with and around others has a negative impact on her disorder at the stage she is at just now.

This does not mean she will never be at a stage were she is functional enough to hold a job, or even close relations with friends or family. There is also a good chance she never will. Our RS is good, but that is down to how I have managed our interactions, and our ability to better communicate her issues.

Outsiders simply do not know how to tolerate it, and are unlikely to even try. The amount of triggers, reactions and counter reactions make ongoing close contact with anyone unsustainable. Maybe we may reach a stage were this is not a problem, but personally I cannot see it not ever being an issue. A lifetime of living on impulse and neediness is not going to reversed easily. She will let down any employer or co workers. Obligation and real responsibility are simply not in her vocabulary, apart from as lip service. Until that particular aspect has been resolved it would actually be unfair to expect anyone to work with her, or employ her, on a level playing field

I can only manage with what is in the now not keep hanging onto maybes. Otherwise it becomes difficult to be content in the now.