The family counseling was a setup... as was her "good" behavior

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well... . if you guys remember I have been in my umpteenth round of marriage counseling.  Going about how you figured it was until about two weeks ago when uBPDw decided the entire family need counseling.

She informed everyone, kids and me via email that it was set up.  I responded and indicated the idea was acceptable but that we should all talk first, discuss how to select a therapist, etc etc.  I drew no lines in sand... max flexibility... . my only condition was a discussion first. 

At our last marriage counseling she said all the right things... her behavior matters... . she can see "her part" in this... etc etc.  The days before that and the week after that were amazingly good.  Her top topic and my top topic for that session was this family counseling.  She was so concernced "for the children"... this that and the other and that is why no discussion is possible... . the counselor seemed to be making good faith effort to reach compromise and that compromise was that I would call and set a time for appointment but that was it... just set the time... no discussion.  I didn't have to be there at appointment... it was just for kids to talk... . I could stay in lobby or not come.  In exchange... uBPDw agreed to deal with one of my relationship "complaints" that she rarely gets up in the morning, ever rarer that she speaks to me if she does get up... . yet then she b___es that we never talk.  She wants to talk at night... when I am sleeping... . whenever the crisis occurs.  But not on a regular schedule when I am guaranteed to be available... . as I'm getting up to go to bed. 

She claimed that she was concerned for me and was letting me have my alone time and had no idea I would appreciate a regular time when we could have a conversation.  She readily agreed that she could "work on being available" if I would call and make the appointment.  Board veterans... . I know the eye rolling is already starting.  You could probably write how this ended up... . then come back and finish my post... . and I bet you would be correct.

Well... . it took about a week from marriage counseling until the family counseling.  I'm sure she forgot the deal or was extra tired... . or something... . because I haven't seen her in the mornings. 

We went to the family counseling and I suspect that she has had conversations or visits with this guy before.  I have never had an intervention before... . but that is what it felt like.  All about how I have "never" dealt with PTSD... . cheated... . lied... . etc etc.  Most aired with kids present.

We went to back room just with Therapist and he claimed to be straight shooter.  Said one of us had to change or our family would continue to shut down emotionally.  I saw lots of distress on my kids faces and some crying in the family thing.  They said not one ill word about their mom even though he prompted them that they could say anything and "nobody" would get mad.  they have experienced crossing her version of reality before... . nobody bit.

Anyway... . he asked who would go first to deal with problems.  I expressed that I have been evaluated many times and all evaluations are consistent with original diagnosis.  Also expressed that uBPDw has agreed many times over last 5 years to get evaluated and deal with "her part"... . but always backed out.  Surprisingly she acknowledged this as the truth.  Therapist asked her who should go first and she said I should so "the problem" could be dealt with. 

I asked if she guaranteed that she would "get in the barrel" (Therapists term) after I got out and after lots of hesitation... hemming and hawing and some weak acknowledgment that she had backed out on previous deals... she said yes.  Therapist nodded, we set an appointment for June 3rd for me to "get in barrel", and he said he would be unavailable before then (as on vacation).

So... . this all happened when I was expecting to sit in lobby with uBPDw.  Now I'm starting to realize what happened to me... . or what I went along with.

I have an existing individual relationship with our last marriage counselor that she stormed out on.  This is Therapist that introduced me to BPD and how to deal. 

She has been clear that she believes it is unethical for two Therapists to work on same patient and not be able to collaborate or compare notes.  So... . I'm not going to hide this from her but I'm pretty sure that she will give me choice of staying with her or new guy... . but not both.  I don't want new guy but have unwisely made a commitment in a fast moving situation that I was not prepared for... . if I back out uBPDw will spread that around family as additional "proof" that the problem is mine and mine alone.

Oh... . all the talk in marriage counseling about her owning her part was gone in the family counseling... . gone.

Very bummed to realize that once again I have been played... . and I believe kids further traumatized.  This gets more and more public... . out in the family... and for some reason I continue to show restraint in front of my children in talking bad about thier mother.

So... . in family counseling she talked about how horrible I was... . how I yelled and screamed.  I owned and acknowledged my behavior.  Explained what I was working on and how I was dealing with that and implored the entire family to allow me to sleep as that was the crux of the issue.  There have NEVER... . and I mean NEVER been any PTSD or other outbursts when I have a 7 or 8 hour 7 day average of sleep.  They are guaranteed when my average is around 4 hours.  My ability to get sleep is... . for the most part... . controlled by my wife and family and if they decide to be awake and make noise... . or if uBPDw wants to talk about whores, other wives, love children and the like.

There was no similar "ownership" of anything the uBPDw has done.  Kids really didn't say much other than I used to be a "good guy".  they also agreed on the timeframe that things went downhill.  Which as same time BPD trait behaviors showed up.

Very frustrating.  Sorry so long.

I'm open to ideas... . but I know I can't go back to family guy until my appointment... . that is first day he is available again.  Last thing... . that will sound paranoid... . and I acknowledge I will never know.  When I called the family guy to make the appointment he claimed to not have his appontment book handy and only wanted dates that I was available.  That he would get back to me with available dates.  I thought the time it took to get back and forth on those were a bit long... as in day or two between phone calls.  However if there were some other backchannel discussions going on so that dates could be assembled so I could be rushed through a process and then have it set so that there was no ability to communicate with him until a time when I commtted to another appointment... . that could explain it. 

I'll never know... . but given the other very obvious manipulations... . I think it is possible.

Looking for advice.  She still has the money and is obviously pulling some big strings here.  I found it interesting that he asked the kids and I what it was like to live with such a controlling woman and kids remained silent.  I expressed that it didn't feel good to not have a voice or be able to participate in decision making.

uBPDw did not respond... . T did not push.

Need help on this one... .

[formflier]

Well... . if you guys remember I have been in my umpteenth round of marriage counseling.  Going about how you figured it was until about two weeks ago when uBPDw decided the entire family need counseling.

She informed everyone, kids and me via email that it was set up.  I responded and indicated the idea was acceptable but that we should all talk first, discuss how to select a therapist, etc etc.  I drew no lines in sand... max flexibility... . my only condition was a discussion first. 

At our last marriage counseling she said all the right things... her behavior matters... . she can see "her part" in this... etc etc.  The days before that and the week after that were amazingly good.  Her top topic and my top topic for that session was this family counseling.  She was so concernced "for the children"... this that and the other and that is why no discussion is possible... . the counselor seemed to be making good faith effort to reach compromise and that compromise was that I would call and set a time for appointment but that was it... just set the time... no discussion.  I didn't have to be there at appointment... it was just for kids to talk... . I could stay in lobby or not come.  In exchange... uBPDw agreed to deal with one of my relationship "complaints" that she rarely gets up in the morning, ever rarer that she speaks to me if she does get up... . yet then she b___es that we never talk.  She wants to talk at night... when I am sleeping... . whenever the crisis occurs.  But not on a regular schedule when I am guaranteed to be available... . as I'm getting up to go to bed. 

She claimed that she was concerned for me and was letting me have my alone time and had no idea I would appreciate a regular time when we could have a conversation.  She readily agreed that she could "work on being available" if I would call and make the appointment.  Board veterans... . I know the eye rolling is already starting.  You could probably write how this ended up... . then come back and finish my post... . and I bet you would be correct.

Well... . it took about a week from marriage counseling until the family counseling.  I'm sure she forgot the deal or was extra tired... . or something... . because I haven't seen her in the mornings. 

We went to the family counseling and I suspect that she has had conversations or visits with this guy before.  I have never had an intervention before... . but that is what it felt like.  All about how I have "never" dealt with PTSD... . cheated... . lied... . etc etc.  Most aired with kids present.

We went to back room just with Therapist and he claimed to be straight shooter.  Said one of us had to change or our family would continue to shut down emotionally.  I saw lots of distress on my kids faces and some crying in the family thing.  They said not one ill word about their mom even though he prompted them that they could say anything and "nobody" would get mad.  they have experienced crossing her version of reality before... . nobody bit.

Anyway... . he asked who would go first to deal with problems.  I expressed that I have been evaluated many times and all evaluations are consistent with original diagnosis.  Also expressed that uBPDw has agreed many times over last 5 years to get evaluated and deal with "her part"... . but always backed out.  Surprisingly she acknowledged this as the truth.  Therapist asked her who should go first and she said I should so "the problem" could be dealt with. 

I asked if she guaranteed that she would "get in the barrel" (Therapists term) after I got out and after lots of hesitation... hemming and hawing and some weak acknowledgment that she had backed out on previous deals... she said yes.  Therapist nodded, we set an appointment for June 3rd for me to "get in barrel", and he said he would be unavailable before then (as on vacation).

So... . this all happened when I was expecting to sit in lobby with uBPDw.  Now I'm starting to realize what happened to me... . or what I went along with.

I have an existing individual relationship with our last marriage counselor that she stormed out on.  This is Therapist that introduced me to BPD and how to deal. 

She has been clear that she believes it is unethical for two Therapists to work on same patient and not be able to collaborate or compare notes.  So... . I'm not going to hide this from her but I'm pretty sure that she will give me choice of staying with her or new guy... . but not both.  I don't want new guy but have unwisely made a commitment in a fast moving situation that I was not prepared for... . if I back out uBPDw will spread that around family as additional "proof" that the problem is mine and mine alone.

Oh... . all the talk in marriage counseling about her owning her part was gone in the family counseling... . gone.

Very bummed to realize that once again I have been played... . and I believe kids further traumatized.  This gets more and more public... . out in the family... and for some reason I continue to show restraint in front of my children in talking bad about thier mother.

So... . in family counseling she talked about how horrible I was... . how I yelled and screamed.  I owned and acknowledged my behavior.  Explained what I was working on and how I was dealing with that and implored the entire family to allow me to sleep as that was the crux of the issue.  There have NEVER... . and I mean NEVER been any PTSD or other outbursts when I have a 7 or 8 hour 7 day average of sleep.  They are guaranteed when my average is around 4 hours.  My ability to get sleep is... . for the most part... . controlled by my wife and family and if they decide to be awake and make noise... . or if uBPDw wants to talk about whores, other wives, love children and the like.

There was no similar "ownership" of anything the uBPDw has done.  Kids really didn't say much other than I used to be a "good guy".  they also agreed on the timeframe that things went downhill.  Which as same time BPD trait behaviors showed up.

Very frustrating.  Sorry so long.

I'm open to ideas... . but I know I can't go back to family guy until my appointment... . that is first day he is available again.  Last thing... . that will sound paranoid... . and I acknowledge I will never know.  When I called the family guy to make the appointment he claimed to not have his appontment book handy and only wanted dates that I was available.  That he would get back to me with available dates.  I thought the time it took to get back and forth on those were a bit long... as in day or two between phone calls.  However if there were some other backchannel discussions going on so that dates could be assembled so I could be rushed through a process and then have it set so that there was no ability to communicate with him until a time when I commtted to another appointment... . that could explain it. 

I'll never know... . but given the other very obvious manipulations... . I think it is possible.

Looking for advice.  She still has the money and is obviously pulling some big strings here.  I found it interesting that he asked the kids and I what it was like to live with such a controlling woman and kids remained silent.  I expressed that it didn't feel good to not have a voice or be able to participate in decision making.

uBPDw did not respond... . T did not push.

Need help on this one... .

[tired-of-it-all]

If the counselor has any experience at all he knows she is playing games. If not then he won't be worth a ___ anyway. Like most BPD she is more interested in being right than solving the problem.  :)on't be bummed about what happened. It is what BPDs do. If the counselor is any good it will help. If not it doesn't matter what he thinks. Also, you are not obligated to follow thru with a commitment that you made while being tricked. In fact you are not obligated under any circumstances. Don't go. She wouldn't. F**k both of them.

Furthermore, only a complete dumb___ of a counselor would put you all together before he spoke to you individually.  He should know that games would be played and that kids would feel unfair pressure.  Anyone worth his salt knows that the kids are going to keep quiet about the parent they fear.  They will attack the good guy to make the bad guy happy.  This is a fact of life with these situations. 

[dreamofstars]

Hi formflier,

So very sorry you are dealing with this and especially with kids involved. However, I have been through this, you can't successfully work it out, even with the best counselor if your uBPD partner won't tell the truth, has ulterior motives, game playing, manipulative, faking it, etc. because ultimately, the foundation is no good. They are totally not logical people, its so hard to deal with them! I had the issue that my uBPD partner who goes to counseling and lies, lies, lies, in fact, the whole counseling thing is just a fake out to make me and his parents think he is making efforts to get better, but he still continues the bad, destructive behavior. Now he just finds different ways to trick us. Based on my experience, BPD is just another way of saying "possessed by the devil". They are not logical people! They don't care about what they are doing to others, they are so wrapped up in themselves. Unpredictable and scary! I encourage you to stay strong for yourself and your kids!

[MissyM]

We have been to many, many therapists.  Marital therapy has always been a nightmare, until we are now dealing with therapists (marital is a DBT therapist) that are all aware of my dBPDh's borderline personality and addictions.  The thing I find interesting, is that you also have a spouse that wants to go to therapy.  To me, that says there is a part of them that wants to get better.  My husband and I went to an intensive together, that involved numerous therapists.  This is what it took for him to be diagnosed, they had to see us together and really wore him down.  Of course, being away from home and out of his routine really escalated his BPD.  It was really expensive but gave all of the therapists a really clear picture of what they were working with.  So, maybe talk to your other therapist and get her input.  If the current marital therapist is asking if you have PTSD, makes me wonder how much he is aware of.  I was diagnosed with PTSD from living with my husband.  Apparently, not uncommon when dealing with all the abuse and gas lighting. 

[formflier]

I do think that uBPDw "knows" something is wrong and is trying to sort it out.  Just my guess... or my hope. 

I would guess that some of my PTSD is from the relationship.  Repetitive screaming sessions in middle of night will do a trick on you. 

I consider PTSD "well managed"... . as long as I keep sleep numbers up I can work through things. 

Thanks for advice and please keep it coming

We have been to many, many therapists.  Marital therapy has always been a nightmare, until we are now dealing with therapists (marital is a DBT therapist) that are all aware of my dBPDh's borderline personality and addictions.  The thing I find interesting, is that you also have a spouse that wants to go to therapy.  To me, that says there is a part of them that wants to get better.  My husband and I went to an intensive together, that involved numerous therapists.  This is what it took for him to be diagnosed, they had to see us together and really wore him down.  Of course, being away from home and out of his routine really escalated his BPD.  It was really expensive but gave all of the therapists a really clear picture of what they were working with.  So, maybe talk to your other therapist and get her input.  If the current marital therapist is asking if you have PTSD, makes me wonder how much he is aware of.  I was diagnosed with PTSD from living with my husband.  Apparently, not uncommon when dealing with all the abuse and gas lighting. 

[waverider]

Unfortunately pwBPD almost need therapy to make them ready for effective therapy. It is normal for the totally wrong attitude to be taken into therapy. Going in with an agenda to seek validation, any competent therapist can see this, as it is all too common. They dont usually challenge it at first as they use it to observe just how the client ticks.

Involving more people in the therapy just provides more avenues of projecting responsibilities. Dont know why he allows kids there, but he may want you there so he can observe how you interact with each other.

[Grey Kitty]

formflier, in this post I see two questions that are woven together, and I think you will find better answers for yourself  by trying to separate them:

1. Which therapist, treating which combination of people in your family will be effective at improving things.

2. What do you do when (if?) you wife is manipulating the process, the therapist(s), etc. to keep the spotlight away from her and on you.

A few more thoughts:

Regarding the first question, I saw this from you:

I have an existing individual relationship with our last marriage counselor that she stormed out on.  This is Therapist that introduced me to BPD and how to deal. 

If you are finding that T useful to you, keep going to that T. Do not accept any form of treatment that would stop you from seeing that T.

What I've seen on these boards is that famliy T or couples T with a pwBPD has an uhm, dubious track record. While it may help, it is often very ineffective. Still, you pick your battles with a pwBPD. It may not be worth your energy fighting this one when other matters are more pressing.

I consider PTSD "well managed"... . as long as I keep sleep numbers up I can work through things. 

And in that is a good answer for you. Spend your energy on setting boundaries to keep your sleep numbers up.

Has your wife been raging at you when you should be going to bed or asleep recently?

A series of boundary enforcement actions might look like this:

If she tries, disengage from discussion? "I will not talk about this now, I need my sleep."

If she won't stop talking, leave to sleep on the couch.

If she follows you to the couch, get in your car and go elsewhere to sleep.

Please note: This is the best thing you can do for your wife, not just you. It is not kind to your wife to let her push you into sleep deprivation where you will subject her to PTSD triggered attacks.  Don't expect her to believe this or even try to convince her at the time tho. 

Hang in there!

 GK

[formflier]

 

Thanks for input... . and for separating out issues.

Sleep disturbances have been way down lately.  I had a couple weeks with none!  Felt glorious.  The next after the "setup" family counseling thing.  She rummaged around room at about 230 and woke me up.  Not really to talk... . she was just making noise.  Kept me up for several hours... . however... . I was pretty worked up about the counseling "ambush" thing.  I did not talk to her at all.

Couple nuance things to get a reaction from you (grey kitty)... . or anyone else. 

I use a CPAP.  In addition to PTSD... I have a number of other disabilities I'm trying to manage.  CPAP works well... .   So... there are several things that affect sleep.  Which is a bummer because I can have cpap or breathing thing one night... . wife keep me up another night... . who knows what else another night.  You guys get picture... . not just one thing messing up sleep.

However... . I have adjusted my lift and I go to bed at a regular time and stay there till I get up at a regular time.  If that upsets the rest of the world... . I'll hand them a tissue. 

That hopefully explains the next attitude I have taken.  That's the bed I sleep in and the bedroom that I use.  I'm not leaving it.  If my wife wants to go somewhere else... . that is her choice.  Note:  She regularly does.   Once even "moved out"... . (I had no idea)... . she confronted me a couple days later and asked if I was angry at her for moving out of the bedroom.  Had to work hard to not laugh... . or not laugh to much.  I seriously had no idea.  She is always moving crap around the house anyway... .   Some of the BPD stuff I can laugh at now... .

In other words... . moving sleep locations is a bit of an issue.

Anyway... . I've also adopted the same mindset with regards to leaving the house.  If she can't control herself to prevent conflict or whatever... . I'm confident I have monitoring in place in the house and on my person that I won't go to jail because of whatever she may claim. 

Next question/issue.

My current plan is to give the "family guy" a couple sessions.  As I have calmed down and thought through it... uBPDw may have inadvertenly stumbled onto a good thing.  My next big decision will be what to do if/when spotlight gets to her and she bolts.  She has made this public now that there are "problems".  So... if in front of kids Daddy is "doing the right thing and going" and Mommy "refuses to go"... . I don't see myself being quiet or protective of her image.

Trying to think all this through.  As I look around her family and the multi-generational evidence of BPD... . I think there has been a conspiracy of silence or passivity. 

Looking at myself in the mirror when I say that.  Trying to figure out how hard to be on myself because on the one hand... . I didn't know... what I didn't know.  And... . lots of family things should be private.

But... . I think the light should be shined on the behavior problems that women exhibit in this family. 

Such as:  When my uBPDw posted on facebook that I was participating in a plot against her (this was before I knew about BPD)... . her sister and mother both posted that they were proud of her... . she should be strong... etc etc.  The plot is a complete fantasy... . but nobody brings it up.

How do I shine this light?  If this causes them to stop coming around... . fine by me.

Her mom has stated that is OK to do wrong... . as long as you are trying to "help" someone by pointing out a flaw in them.  Nobody called her on it (including me).  I thought it eccentric at the time... . now I know better.

More later.  Keep the observations coming.

[Grey Kitty]

Glad you are getting better sleep. As long as your wife is respecting your bedtime pretty well, your approach sounds good. However I'd be ready to move myself and my CPAP elsewhere if she started regularly interrupting your sleep again.

My current plan is to give the "family guy" a couple sessions.  As I have calmed down and thought through it... uBPDw may have inadvertenly stumbled onto a good thing.  My next big decision will be what to do if/when spotlight gets to her and she bolts.  She has made this public now that there are "problems".  So... if in front of kids Daddy is "doing the right thing and going" and Mommy "refuses to go"... . I don't see myself being quiet or protective of her image.

Sounds like you have a good plan here.

I wouldn't "do" anything about this, if she does bolt--it is a secondary problem (her not accepting treatment).

I'd recommend you leave trying to "do" something for direct behaviors of hers that cause you or your family problems. Keep the focus on solving the problems, and perhaps that will re-direct you to getting her into therapy as an attempted solution. Or perhaps other solutions will work better.

You have a new balance to strike here--covering up her bad behavior is enabling, and you don't want to do that anymore. Sometimes staying quiet about things is still the best path though, if you have a good option to remain quiet. (i.e. no direct questions, etc.)

If somebody doesn't "catch" your wife's bad behavior, perhaps you don't need to point it out to them.

If somebody does catch on to what your wife is doing, perhaps they just don't bother speaking of it, and again don't need to hear anymore of it from you.

I found that the best course for me in this realm is to speak of my wife's behavior directly, without talking about her reasons, any mental health issues diagnosed or otherwise, etc.

In this case, if the family therapist does figure out your wife's issues... . let him speak to them, since he is running these sessions and has his own reasons to mention or avoid them. If he's unable to catch on to her issues, he probably won't be much help if you try to explain them to him.

But... . I think the light should be shined on the behavior problems that women exhibit in this family. 

Such as:  When my uBPDw posted on facebook that I was participating in a plot against her (this was before I knew about BPD)... . her sister and mother both posted that they were proud of her... . she should be strong... etc etc.  The plot is a complete fantasy... . but nobody brings it up.

How do I shine this light?  If this causes them to stop coming around... . fine by me.

Not sure what you mean. I can imagine lots of ways to stir up a hornet's nest so to speak... . but not much effective action, especially for past behavior.

I would say that using boundaries to protect yourself from any new bad behavior on the part of your wife's family is an excellent idea.

[KateCat]

I'm just wondering, per GreyKitty's post directly above, if you have yet had a personal therapist assure you that you are indeed an abused spouse, based on the events you've described here. If you really accepted this fact, fully and firmly, maybe some of the need to "shine a light" on the behavior of your wife and her family of origin might recede.

You sure as heck need some affirmation of what you've been through, and some validation that things need to change, but being careful and diplomatic just now are probably great ideas.

And boundaries, as GreyKitty also mentions.