Intimacy.. Or lack thereof?

[Stalwart]

Strength I'm so sorry to say this and I am trying to be supportive but a lot of people with this don't have the ability to focus too far out of their immediate needs and surroundings. Being away is a big thing to you, you will miss her, think about her, worry about her, hope for her. That doesn't necessarily mean that's the way she thinks and how her mindset works. The fact is so many are so focused on their immediate needs and filling them that you could be around the corner and she may only think about what's immediately in her availability.

I know it's cruel to say but you might want to read more on some of their abilities to just "turn off the switch". Google it combined with borderline personality disorder and do some reading. It's not good reading but it doesn't necessarily apply to all of them and it won't.

Watch closely and percieve even more closely what you think but keep on learning - most of all though guard your heart and hopes. You're not in a relationship with a 'normal' person. You're getting into a relationship with someone who is subject to and directed by a mental illness that can be debilitating for them and for you.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Strength27]

Thanks. I appreciate any information I can get my hands on- no need to apologize for anything! She reached out and texted me today and she was upset I hadn't been talking to her. Of course I replied and she disappeared again.

[Strength27]

So I've done some reading... And I have a question. I regards to "flipping the switch... . " When she gives me nothing,  reciprocate the nothing. She notices this within a week or so... And attempts to contact me, and then makes me feel bad and questions my feelings for her. When I cave, and communicate with her, it's always the same. Short worded, better things to do than talk to me attitude, followed by another few days of ignoring me. It's a never ending cycle. The typical I hate you don't leave me Wayne thinking I suppose. What's the best way to handle this? I always remain calm and cool and collected, and remind her that I love her. Very rarely does she say it back. Am I doing the correct things?

[DreamFlyer99]

So I've done some reading... And I have a question. I regards to "flipping the switch... . " When she gives me nothing,  reciprocate the nothing. She notices this within a week or so... And attempts to contact me, and then makes me feel bad and questions my feelings for her. When I cave, and communicate with her, it's always the same. Short worded, better things to do than talk to me attitude, followed by another few days of ignoring me. It's a never ending cycle. The typical I hate you don't leave me Wayne thinking I suppose. What's the best way to handle this? I always remain calm and cool and collected, and remind her that I love her. Very rarely does she say it back. Am I doing the correct things?

i honestly have no real ideas about this, but i'm wondering if you can take a few deep breaths, sit back and think about the bigger picture of it all and see what your gut says about it. Because you don't need to be badgered and made to feel bad, and you can have boundaries around how she talks to you.

[Strength27]

Yeah, I'm just confused. As cliche as it sounds, I wish I could think with my head and not my heart. From a logical standpoint, it doesn't make any sense to want to be with a woman like her. But when it comes to love, logic goes out the window.  I did wind up sending that letter, and I did try contacting her. I am sure she hasn't seen the letter yet, but when we do talk, it's obvious she's not invested to the point I am. I realize mentally I'm very weak, but I'm going to attempt nc again. If only for a week or so. I know that seems insignificant, but for me that's huge. It seems to make all the difference

[Strength27]

An update. I gues she received the letter. I got a message early yestsrday that said "I'll call you tonight or maybe tomorrow." Well she called last night, and I wasn't able to get to my phone. I tried calling her back this morning, and of course I got the inevitable don't bother calling me, have a good week, etc. do I try to call anyway as play this game or just wait it out until the next time she contacts me? I know I said I was doing nc, and I was- it's just that I didn't expect to hear anything back from her. I am due to visit in just over a month now, and I don't even know if she wants me to come or not.

[DreamFlyer99]

Are you actually enjoying this relationship? Do you see this cat and mouse game as something you can deal with for your future?

[Strength27]

As much as it doesn't make sense- I do. I don't enjoy not trusting her. I don't enjoy how much more I put into this than she does. I don't enjoy the countless nights of sleep I've lost thinking about her with other men, or putting me on the back burner. All that being said, that's what I signed up for. No one deserves to be treated like that. She's in therapy now, and I am hoping things will improve. We still text every few days, and talk on the phone every now and then. Every time I try to talk to her less, she breaks the silence. I have learned not go get worked up any more, and I've been doing a lot better coping with all of this. The latest is that we ironed out some more details about my visit, and for now, she seems happy about it. I'm not dumb, I know there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel, I'm just trying to string together more good days in a row than bad. I didn't choose to love her, it just happened.

[DreamFlyer99]

Well, that's the answer then isn't it? When we love someone enough to try to ride out the storm and change our responses enough to spend more time in the quiet eye of the storm, we do. I've been married for nearly 38 years now to my uBPDh. When it was more "storm" than "eye" I stepped out a few months ago, and that's caused him to go to counseling. So we'll see how the changes go! But good for you being willing to learn new skills yourself for how to relate in a more effective way with her.

What are your favorite new skills so far?

[Strength27]

Well I'm not sure if I'd call it a skill, or say it's my favorite, but I've developed the ability to not take things personally. I've also started to accept her for who she is. It's not my job to change her, or even help her. That's entirely up to her. I've also come to the terms that if she's talking, she's most likely lying. I've stopped trying to question her and get the real "truth," as I'll never get it anyway. She knows I love her, she knows I'll do anything I can to support her and be there for her. At this point, there's just nothing else I can do except let things play out. If she decides to put in the effort, fantastic. If not, then as they say, "that's the way the cookie crumbles."

[Stalwart]

Hey Strength: I thought I'd drop you one more line on this. It's a bit long but it's worth the read.

In a continuous search for learning and understanding I converse with a lot of people, primarily women that have BPD. It's difficult sometimes to find people that can articulate their feelings well and once in a while you hit the ticket.

The problem is in dealing with most issues of someone with BPD we try to rationalize a situation or their actions using our structure of logic- 'sane' logic. We forget that in most cases that just isn't possible because they are not dealing with any resemblance to a sane logic in the way they think or function. We react to past experiences, our egos and feelings and mirror them into that logic and it's impossible to come to even remotely correct analysis of their thinking. As much as we think we're on the right line of thought, typically we haven't even entered the right ball park from the beginning but we keep playing out the innings in our mind.

Here's what one person says about this detachment issue from her perspective and I think it holds true to a lot of people with this infliction. It's interesting and for someone who hasn't considered this before it's an A HuH moment to identify with it. Pour a coffee and sit down for a minute because it's long and involved but it's worth ever minute to read it all thoroughly if you want to try and better understand that this may well be the same situation you're facing.

“Borderlines have problems with object constancy in people -- they read each action of people in their lives as if there were no prior context; they don't have a sense of continuity and consistency about people and things in their lives. They have a hard time experiencing an absent loved one as a loving presence in their minds. They also have difficulty seeing all of the actions taken by a person over a period of time as part of an integrated whole, and tend instead to analyze individual actions in an attempt to divine their individual meanings. People are defined by how they last interacted with the borderline.”

Object Constancy - They may have problems with object constancy. When a person leaves (even temporarily), they may have a problem recreating or remembering feelings of love that were present between themselves and the other. Often, BPD  patients want to keep something belonging to the loved one around during separations.

Out of sight, out of mind: For me, I don’t believe people hold me in their memories. If I’m not around, or I am not in some form of contact/communication with them, I don’t exist in their world. I have an extraordinarily hard time holding onto the thought that people remember me, hold me dear or care for me when I am not in their physical presence. Out of sight, no longer connected. I'm sure to most people this is not how they perceive relationships (be it friendship, dating, familial). I think it should be a consistent progression of emotions and experiences that build together to form a deep bond. I also have a hard time holding onto the strong emotions I feel for those I care about, and when I do manage to I also manage to convince myself that I am the only one that feels this way and no one else could possibly share my depth of emotion though I desperately hope they do. This creates a feeling of panic and loss for something that may actually be there and I need to find a way to reaffirm these feelings in myself and others every time I am back in contact with them. It’s a maddening cycle of doubt, loss, connection and disconnection.

Holding Time:  I have a hard time holding together one event after the other. I remember events just fine, but holding onto the sentiment of events in series that something is bound. It doesn't always feel to me that everything is connected. One thing may happen after another, but it does not seem like things hold together in essence after the former has passed. Like if I'm gone too long, that I was there before will cease to be relevant. There is no continuum of events. Everything is like a single instance in time and I have to completely reestablish how I am connected to the event, the environment, the people every time.  It’s very difficult for me to remember that everything is NOT a series of individual events. They ARE a continuum. The attachment of one event bleeds into the sentiment of the next giving life to yet another. That continuum is what binds memories, sentiment, and relationships. Yes? At least that is what I imagine it should be. I imagine so, I don’t feel it.

I often have terrible anxiety when people leave. There’s a desperate need to understand how others feel about me, hold me to them, our connection, because I can’t hold onto this concept myself. On the other hand, when people do leave, abandon me, never to return, after a while it’s as if they were never in my life. I have memories of experiences with people, but no emotional connection to the memories. It’s like I’m remembering a story someone else told me. Sometimes this happens immediately, other times it takes weeks of panic at the loss before I break from the emotional attachment I’ve been able to build. Lately though, I notice this happening more and more quickly, with less time spent obsessing over every instance that lead to the break.

My dissociation helps me here because after the initial fear and anxiety, my emotions deaden. I become numb to the experiences I have just been through. I feel detached from my own body and it becomes logical that others wouldn’t be attached to me when I am not even attached to myself.

How attached are things, moments in time, events, really? How does it feel to be so strongly bound by sentiment that you feel indefinitely connected by a series of things? I simply don’t know.


Like I said Strength long but worth every bit of the read. What do you think? Is it possible that your friend thniks in this same way? I only ask because if you think so there are certainly ways you can help out the situation when you can understand it better.

Hope it helps.

[Strength27]

Woah. To be honest, I see a lot of myself in all of that. Treating relationships as a series of isolated incidents, object consistency... Even out of sight out of mind. I know that she thinks like this for sure, but the more I read, the more I think I may have the same thing. I don't mean any disrespect and this is obviously not something to trivialize... But all of this seems way too familiar.

But back to be main issue, that does help paint a clearer picture of the situation. Most if not all of it seems to fit to a t, and helps me understand better. Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that. I really appreciate it.

[DreamFlyer99]

Well I'm not sure if I'd call it a skill, or say it's my favorite, but I've developed the ability to not take things personally. I've also started to accept her for who she is. It's not my job to change her, or even help her. That's entirely up to her. I've also come to the terms that if she's talking, she's most likely lying. I've stopped trying to question her and get the real "truth," as I'll never get it anyway. She knows I love her, she knows I'll do anything I can to support her and be there for her. At this point, there's just nothing else I can do except let things play out. If she decides to put in the effort, fantastic. If not, then as they say, "that's the way the cookie crumbles."

i'd call that a skill, not taking things personally. It's quite a change of mindset for many of us.

Have you learned any of the communication skills like SET, or validation? If so how have those gone?

[Stalwart]

No hint of disrespect taken my friend at all.

I found this so amazing because it is so far from any personal or emotional experience I've ever felt. It is totally opposite to my way of thinking and I also saw so much of this in my own wife's actions that it was a revelation to read, if not a little freightening as well. I can't imagine being challenged in that way and even trying to develop or maintain a relationship. I marvel at the abilities some people do have to cope under such challenged conditions and I'm starting to develop a respect for what some of these people have lived in and still do just to make to end of a day sometimes. So many of them are so strong and it's no wonder they're in such need.

You find it a revelation because it reminds you or yourself. Amazing how differently we all think and to consider that there would ever be easy answers to anything of it becomes so much more clear all the time.

For now I find encouragement and hope going farther in learning because everyday I seem to find out something that's just so relevant and of so much 'need' to know.

Hoping for the best in your situation Strength and stay in touch.

People care.

[DreamFlyer99]

For now I find encouragement and hope going farther in learning because everyday I seem to find out something that's just so relevant and of so much 'need' to know.

So well said, Stalwart.

[Strength27]

It's absolutely a relief knowing that there are others who are experiencing the exact same things. I wouldn't wish it I anyone, but it's nice knowing I'm not alone. That really was a great eye opening read. I still have good days and bad, but the good days while the good days are stringing together nicely, the bad days are just terrible haha. I have been doing very well with validating some in my opinion irrational statements and logic, although it is an extremely challenging thing to do for me. To sit there and tell her I understand why she feels that 2 plus 2 is 5 is just... . Ugh. It does usually dissipate the situation nicely though. I still need to practice SET.

I lost it last night- I let things build up and the I explode. As shallow as it sounds (I almost feel guilty even though I shouldn't) I called her and told her how upset I was about the la of physical intimacy again. I know it bothers her, but being constantly rejected by someone who dads she "loves" you is just so difficult. I think I struggle with this issue so much because she's found that satisfaction with others. I would not care one bit if she just didn't do that. But being constantly hounded I for even saying hello to another woman when we don't even have a physical relationship just isn't fair and doesn't make sense to me. I just want to desperately understand.

The things that go through my head and that she's actually said to me:

I'm not attracted to you like that, I'm attracted to you as a person and I love you though and I want to date you.

It would just mean too much and I'm not ready for that kind if emotion.

I need to get better before I have a relationship with anyone.

I've tried to rationalize these things, and I just can't no matter how hard I try. I realize that rationalizing her ways of thinking is a very difficult if not impossible task, but it's in my nature and I can't help it. Anytime I bring it up to her, she tells me to drop it and that we've been over it a hundred times (we havent, she just avoids it).

To me, being physically intimate is a part of a healthy relationship. To not be wanted in that way by your "partner" is by far the worst feeling. I struggle every day. I have told her that if she's not attracted to me in that way to just let me go, and she refuses... Giving me the whole I love and care about you and would be really upset if you moved on speech. It's like she's using the lack of sex to keep me interested... Maybe she fears that once it happens I'll stop loving her. I don't know.

[SweetCharlotte]

The things that go through my head and that she's actually said to me:

I'm not attracted to you like that, I'm attracted to you as a person and I love you though and I want to date you.

These "explosions" can be productive. The first thing that came to your mind is pretty definitive. It makes no sense on her part to want to date a person she doesn't feel attracted to "like that" except to use him for certain qualities or resources he has. It leads to an attitude of contempt because, no matter how much she uses you, she is still unhappy in love (probably suffering on account of the last lover who abandoned her). When you show signs of abandoning her like the others, she may look on you with more respect, but don't be fooled by it.

[DreamFlyer99]

Validation isn't about telling her you "understand why she thinks 2 + 2 = 5" it's about telling her that you understand she feels that way. It's a big difference. Validation is more about letting her have her feelings and not feel rejected for her feelings. You needn't feel like you're lying just to make her happy! Here's a basic slide presentation about validation that's quite helpful. i had that same reaction to validation when i first read about it--"wait! you're telling me i have to agree with something i don't?" But no.

Validation and BPD

And here's a more in-depth workshop on Validation: TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)