How to break free from this?

[Depression = 72% of members]

This is the only place that I have left where I hope someone will believe that what I perceive is really manipulation, cause it got so complex and subtle that anyone else would look at me in disbilief. Of course, I still have doubts myself of not being the crazy one, witholding support to an aging, giving and always present father.

To keep a very long story short: I have been strictly LC with him from last September, and the more I try to escape the more the guilt tripping and sofistication in manipulation in keeping me in a cage made of control, self doubts and confusion is increasing; I have always been financially very independent sincee my twenties and never had economical problems until last year, when I’ve lost my job. I have recently started working as a freelancer, I’m renting a room in my house to a student, I’m doing many sacrifices as the money is not much at all but I know that I can make it if I have all my strenghts with me and my mental clarity;  of  course he’s taking full advantage of my precarious financial situation as a great chance to show me how I am at risk of becoming a homeless, that without his money I won’t be able to survive, offering me to buy me things I didn’t ask for and never accept (and it’s SO hard to explain to others that this is NOT pride, I would like so much to be able to accept some of that money, but maybe some of you know the price you have to pay if you do, literally a piece of your soul. I’ve been there, and I’m not doing it again).

To complicate things further, I have accepted a few years ago to put my name on his bank account, just in case he becomes ill and he needs me to take money for him. I understand that this is logical, and I wouldn’t have any money to pay for his hospital bills or other things he might need, but he’s using this as an excuse to keep contacting me, or using my mother to bring me letters in which he asks me to pay bills for  “communal things of the family”; these are namely, the family car that I sometimes (really rarely) use too and the expenses for a holiday house.  He doesn’t drive anymore, and he doesn’t want to go to the holiday house, while my mother and I still go sometimes, so it makes perfect sense that I do this little favor to him, it really seems nothing and that Im making a huge fuss about it... .

The reality is that the day I put my name on his account I got literally physically sick, and that everytime a letter, a phone call arrives I feel such revulsion, fear, and anger for something that is so difficult to explain, still ... . it’s there, and I know I’m not making it up. It’s like a slap in the face, like he’s whispering in my ear:”See, what would you do without me?”

I'd like so much to pay everything with my money, even if I use the house or the car once a year... . but I don't have it, I simply don't.

I have asked my mother a million times to help me and protect me from this, with no result. She’s one of those who will never understand how subtle his manipulations can be, and I don’t have the strenghts to explain this to anybody anymore. Either you see them, or you don’t.

After an unpteenth effort on his part tonight, I’m on the verge of doing something final; taking my name off his account, writing him a letter saying that I’m not going to the holiday house anymore and that he can sell the house and the  car if he wants since he’s not using them. I don’t know. I really can’t take any of this anymore. I tried to establish some boundaries but he’s playing on my honor and sense of obligation more and more and it’s so not fair.

I understand I have responsabilities with my aging parents and I don’t want to go totally NC.

I’m the only daughter, so I have told him that I will always be there in case of emergencies and that I will go to visit him every three months. But I don’t want that these responsabilities will become excuses for him to assert his control and power over me; if I let this happen, I won’t have the mental, emotional and spiritual strenght to make it in this new job and not even for caring for them when they will really need it. For my life with him, and other close experiences with BPD and Narcissism I’ve been diagnosed complex PTSD. My health, my immune system specifically, has been going downhill in these last few years and I’m putting all I have in recovering and starting a new life. I really can’t afford it.  This  financial entanglement is making me feel sick, fake, and tied with a chain on my ankle.

What do I have to do? I know I should keep my head cool and be firm once I take a decision; tonight I sent the letter and the money back and told my mother I don’t want to know about any of these things anymore. Am I being completely irrational? I know that once I will earn real money again and have a good relationship I would feel much stronger and maybe all this would seem small, but now it seems huge. Please help me understand what to do in practice. Any tip or ideas will be very welcomed. And, if I'm being too dramatic please do tell me.

Thank you so much for reading me, I know it was very long.

[HazelJade]

This is the only place that I have left where I hope someone will believe that what I perceive is really manipulation, cause it got so complex and subtle that anyone else would look at me in disbilief. Of course, I still have doubts myself of not being the crazy one, witholding support to an aging, giving and always present father.

To keep a very long story short: I have been strictly LC with him from last September, and the more I try to escape the more the guilt tripping and sofistication in manipulation in keeping me in a cage made of control, self doubts and confusion is increasing; I have always been financially very independent sincee my twenties and never had economical problems until last year, when I’ve lost my job. I have recently started working as a freelancer, I’m renting a room in my house to a student, I’m doing many sacrifices as the money is not much at all but I know that I can make it if I have all my strenghts with me and my mental clarity;  of  course he’s taking full advantage of my precarious financial situation as a great chance to show me how I am at risk of becoming a homeless, that without his money I won’t be able to survive, offering me to buy me things I didn’t ask for and never accept (and it’s SO hard to explain to others that this is NOT pride, I would like so much to be able to accept some of that money, but maybe some of you know the price you have to pay if you do, literally a piece of your soul. I’ve been there, and I’m not doing it again).

To complicate things further, I have accepted a few years ago to put my name on his bank account, just in case he becomes ill and he needs me to take money for him. I understand that this is logical, and I wouldn’t have any money to pay for his hospital bills or other things he might need, but he’s using this as an excuse to keep contacting me, or using my mother to bring me letters in which he asks me to pay bills for  “communal things of the family”; these are namely, the family car that I sometimes (really rarely) use too and the expenses for a holiday house.  He doesn’t drive anymore, and he doesn’t want to go to the holiday house, while my mother and I still go sometimes, so it makes perfect sense that I do this little favor to him, it really seems nothing and that Im making a huge fuss about it... .

The reality is that the day I put my name on his account I got literally physically sick, and that everytime a letter, a phone call arrives I feel such revulsion, fear, and anger for something that is so difficult to explain, still ... . it’s there, and I know I’m not making it up. It’s like a slap in the face, like he’s whispering in my ear:”See, what would you do without me?”

I'd like so much to pay everything with my money, even if I use the house or the car once a year... . but I don't have it, I simply don't.

I have asked my mother a million times to help me and protect me from this, with no result. She’s one of those who will never understand how subtle his manipulations can be, and I don’t have the strenghts to explain this to anybody anymore. Either you see them, or you don’t.

After an unpteenth effort on his part tonight, I’m on the verge of doing something final; taking my name off his account, writing him a letter saying that I’m not going to the holiday house anymore and that he can sell the house and the  car if he wants since he’s not using them. I don’t know. I really can’t take any of this anymore. I tried to establish some boundaries but he’s playing on my honor and sense of obligation more and more and it’s so not fair.

I understand I have responsabilities with my aging parents and I don’t want to go totally NC.

I’m the only daughter, so I have told him that I will always be there in case of emergencies and that I will go to visit him every three months. But I don’t want that these responsabilities will become excuses for him to assert his control and power over me; if I let this happen, I won’t have the mental, emotional and spiritual strenght to make it in this new job and not even for caring for them when they will really need it. For my life with him, and other close experiences with BPD and Narcissism I’ve been diagnosed complex PTSD. My health, my immune system specifically, has been going downhill in these last few years and I’m putting all I have in recovering and starting a new life. I really can’t afford it.  This  financial entanglement is making me feel sick, fake, and tied with a chain on my ankle.

What do I have to do? I know I should keep my head cool and be firm once I take a decision; tonight I sent the letter and the money back and told my mother I don’t want to know about any of these things anymore. Am I being completely irrational? I know that once I will earn real money again and have a good relationship I would feel much stronger and maybe all this would seem small, but now it seems huge. Please help me understand what to do in practice. Any tip or ideas will be very welcomed. And, if I'm being too dramatic please do tell me.

Thank you so much for reading me, I know it was very long.

[StarStruck]

Hello HazelJade,

I feel for you going through this patch. Like you know it's a patch and you will get through this. Giving yourself the space and freedom to think clearly will help you improve your means/situation.

You have written so succinctly... . not lengthy or dramatic. Your thoughts not irrational in anyway whatsoever. I understand how your body has taken a knock, with chronic stress your immune system feels it but in my belief not reversible .  

I think you have a complex situation that you are dealing with fantastically, I completely understand the feelings of commitment you have towards your parents but this should NEVER be at the expense of yourself. I totally see how this is manipulation and would point blank see it in the very same terms you have.

I think you are a caring person that is wanting and attempting to put down the boundaries you need to have a good life. Reading your post I think you had no choice but to instill this latest boundary in ref to bank/finance.

I hope things pick up for you once the wake of the boundary has died down. To conclude I would say follow your instinct on this and carry on as you are.  

[HazelJade]

StarStruck,

Thank you SO much for taking the time for reading my post and for your wonderful words of support; your reply has made my day, it really has.

It's giving me the strenght to stick to my decision. I would like so much to find a way to communicate this new boundaries to him in a clear, non apologetic, but not defensive way. But first of all, I will follow your suggestion, which is precious; I will give myself time and space to think clearly.

Do you know, reading other posts on this board I was thinking last night that my problem almost pales in comparison... . so many people financially ruined by a parent who's asking THEM support, people completely trapped by relatives who constantly exploit them financially... .

My father didn't ruin me financially, quite the opposite. He's been offering me money his entire life.  I've tried hard to see this as the only form of love he's capable of, and maybe really it is, but whenever I have accepted it, there came the real hidden request, that I should give back emotionally to him. And not in a healthy "Thank you dad" sort of way; his huge emotional neediness instantly becomes guilt tripping, raging, suicide threats when someone doesn't comply to his emotional requests. 

I have recently started thinking that all the fear and anger that I feel comes from this double message; with one hand he's parentifing me - asking me to take care of his emotional needs, with the other he's infantilizing me- making sure I know how dependent on him I still am.

It's not even the anger for the manipulation that I feel, but the terrible frustration, pain and confusion of not having been able to be a parent and a child at the same time.

It's just starting dawning on me that maybe nobody can.

[StarStruck]

My father didn't ruin me financially, quite the opposite. He's been offering me money his entire life.  I've tried hard to see this as the only form of love he's capable of, and maybe really it is, but whenever I have accepted it, there came the real hidden request, that I should give back emotionally to him. And not in a healthy "Thank you dad" sort of way; his huge emotional neediness instantly becomes guilt tripping, raging, suicide threats when someone doesn't comply to his emotional requests.  

I have recently started thinking that all the fear and anger that I feel comes from this double message; with one hand he's parentifing me - asking me to take care of his emotional needs, with the other he's infantilizing me- making sure I know how dependent on him I still am.

It's not even the anger for the manipulation that I feel, but the terrible frustration, pain and confusion of not having been able to be a parent and a child at the same time.

It's just starting dawning on me that maybe nobody can.

Yes like cranial torture but you feel like you are doing it to yourself... . frustration/pain/confusion with not being able to marry the two sides of it.

[P.F.Change]

I have recently started thinking that all the fear and anger that I feel comes from this double message; with one hand he's parentifing me - asking me to take care of his emotional needs, with the other he's infantilizing me- making sure I know how dependent on him I still am.

It sounds like you are gaining some insight here. My parents have similar expectations about their gifts. Lots of strings attatched. I think in the case of my parents, it is not intentionally manipulative in the sense that they sit down and calculate how to force people to give them what they want. Rather, it is sort of running on auto-pilot as one of the most effective ways they currently know to get their needs met. More of a coping mechanism than a deliberate manipulation, even though ultimately it does serve to manipulate.

As far as the checking account goes, it sounds like you really do not want to be on it. I think you came up with a good solution to the sick feeling it gives you by deciding to take your name off of the account. This does not make you a bad daughter. Perhaps your parents can give you power of attorney in the event they are unable to manage their own checking account, that way you do not have to let your name be on their accounts indefinitely.

I tried to establish some boundaries but he’s playing on my honor and sense of obligation more and more and it’s so not fair.

Having a sense of your boundaries does not mean other people are going to understand or accept them. They are a way for us to take care of ourselves, not a way to convince other people to care for us. If your father has a PD, he isn't going to be able to be "fair." He isn't going to be able to understand why you need him to stop doing what he's doing. Boundaries don't change other people. They just show us where we need to say "no." To me it sounds like you have taken care of your boundary by deciding what you will do and not do. That is a good step.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[HazelJade]

Thank you, P.F.Change.

You are absolutely right here:

it is not intentionally manipulative in the sense that they sit down and calculate how to force people to give them what they want. Rather, it is sort of running on auto-pilot as one of the most effective ways they currently know to get their needs met. More of a coping mechanism than a deliberate manipulation, even though ultimately it does serve to manipulate.

I'm totally aware that the manipulations are not something he strategically plans, and yes, they are some sort of protection/self defense mechanism.

At they same time, it hurts. Cause no matter how old you are, you will always have a liitle child inside of you, who wants to be loved unconditionally by a father, not manipulated into "giving" something all the time. I don't think that rationally understanding my father can't give me this will ever shut up that little child's voice completely. Im being really honest here.

As far as the checking account goes, it sounds like you really do not want to be on it. I think you came up with a good solution to the sick feeling it gives you by deciding to take your name off of the account. This does not make you a bad daughter. Perhaps your parents can give you power of attorney in the event they are unable to manage their own checking account, that way you do not have to let your name be on their accounts indefinitely.

It is a good suggestion. The bank account, I realize, has such a strong symbolic meaning. It's at the same time a way I can take care of him paying for his needs when he won't be able to do it himself, and a way to always keep in touch with the bills' excuse, to know that Im still around and haven't abandoned him, but also a way to assert his power over me; it looks like he has the need to see our two names together, while keeping my mother out of it. Which is precisely what terrifies me the most.

Having a sense of your boundaries does not mean other people are going to understand or accept them. They are a way for us to take care of ourselves, not a way to convince other people to care for us. If your father has a PD, he isn't going to be able to be "fair." He isn't going to be able to understand why you need him to stop doing what he's doing. Boundaries don't change other people. They just show us where we need to say "no." To me it sounds like you have taken care of your boundary by deciding what you will do and not do. That is a good step.

I understand what you are saying here. Of course, I was just venting. I know oh too well how boundaries don't change other people and I don't have this expectation anymore, even less that he takes care of me. I feel just sad that if he could respect my boundaries maybe we could find a way not to get to final, harsh decisions that will impact also on him; I haven't taken my name off his account yet as he's old, and not exactly healthy. If he needs a caretaker at home, a nurse, anything (he doesn't want to be hospitalized or go into a hospice), how on earth am I going to pay these expenses?  I'd love that he could understand that calling me every second week and using the account thing as I mean to reconnect playing on a sense of obligation and disregarding completely the distance Im trying to keep is risking to turn the whole thing into a real abandonment. Which is maybe exactly what he's been trying to prove and achieve all his life. It's just really, really sad. But. I will find a solution.

Thank you guys for supporting me. It meant a lot to me.

[czarsmom]

Hazeljade said "At they same time, it hurts. Cause no matter how old you are, you will always have a liitle child inside of you, who wants to be loved unconditionally by a father, not manipulated into "giving" something all the time. I don't think that rationally understanding my father can't give me this will ever shut up that little child's voice completely. Im being really honest here."

You are spot on with this.  I've recently come to this realization.  Be gentle with that little child. 

[HazelJade]

Thank you, Czarsmom.

Your comment and validation of this feeling means a lot to me, more than I can say.

Awareness, and then total acceptance of a PD are fundamental but yes, Im realizing exactly what you are saying; we should be accepting of that child too. It's such a difficult balance to achieve.

I've read somewhere that we shouldn't just grieve the loss of the relationship we never had, but also the loss of the person we could have been and has somehow become so difficult to become. It is so true, for me.

Thank you so much for your support.

[BabeRuthless]

HazelJade: Just want to offer some support and encouragement... . you are not alone. I so understand what you are saying about an aging parent, and being terrified and needing to set boundaries but not wanting to go NC. At times, I still believe that setting boundaries will change others, or somehow bring about the relationship I want. And at times, that small child inside still wants my uBPD mother's love and attention, and wishes her pathetic neediness would disappear.

I read something good recently about loving and respecting that small child inside us... . to have great compassion for her or him, and not to self-shame that, as adults, we still feel this yearning for a parent's true love and acceptance. To just let the feeling be there, have great patience with it, but not act on it or let it dominate. Boy, is this hard.

Keep up the good insights and good work. You are not alone.

[HazelJade]

Thank you, BabeRuthless  

Knowing that I'm not alone does makes me feel better, it just does.

And yes, finding a balance it's very, very hard. It feels like ... . all this struggle ... . and you already know that no matter what you achieve, even if my father will finally leave me alone, either because he choses to, or because he dies, that place in my heart will always be empty. And if he dies, he will die without understanding that detaching was a matter of life or death, for me, for my mental health, and not lack of love.

On the other side, if the opposite happens, and I give up all my boundaries and give him all he asks, he will always be unhappy anyway.

There must be some hope, somewhere, that right now I can't see.

Maybe it is in being totally accepting, and in a better communication, but right now, without a steady income and without somebody beside me, I feel too fragile for risking seeing him. The last interactions I had with him left a mark on me.

As StarStruck suggested at the beginning of the thread, right now I'm taking some time to feel stronger and reflect on what is the best course of action; I'm away for work, so there won't be any other interaction with him anyway for a while.

I won't have time to write in the next few days, but I will for reading.

What is your story? How often do you see your mother?

HazelJade: Just want to offer some support and encouragement... . you are not alone. I so understand what you are saying about an aging parent, and being terrified and needing to set boundaries but not wanting to go NC. At times, I still believe that setting boundaries will change others, or somehow bring about the relationship I want. And at times, that small child inside still wants my uBPD mother's love and attention, and wishes her pathetic neediness would disappear.

I read something good recently about loving and respecting that small child inside us... . to have great compassion for her or him, and not to self-shame that, as adults, we still feel this yearning for a parent's true love and acceptance. To just let the feeling be there, have great patience with it, but not act on it or let it dominate. Boy, is this hard.

Keep up the good insights and good work. You are not alone.

[BabeRuthless]

HazelJade: Hope you're doing okay today. Thanks for asking about my mother. She lives on the opposite coast from me, thank goodness, so I am not in a position to have to interact with her very often right now.

My mother is uBPD/NPD. She is a creative, talented, high-functioning person in some ways, and a desperate "waif" in other ways, with "queen" tendencies, as well. She was sexually abused as a very young child by her maternal grandfather, with whom she was left for about five years. Her biological father rejected her for her entire life. She married as a teenager, had my older half-sister, then returned to her parents' home when she left that husband. She then re-connected with my father, with whom she'd been friends, and they got married and had my twin sister and me. When we were eight, she apparently had secretly been seeing another man also got hooked on amphetamines, and my parents divorced. She felt she couldn't take care of us -- and neither did my father -- so we were left in the care of his uBPD mother, to disastrous effect.

My mother is the neediest, most narcissistic person I have ever known. She doesn't try to hurt or alienate others... . it just happens, over and over and over again. Almost no one who really knows her can tolerate her and her "black hole" quality, grandiosity and unbelievable self-centeredness. She is like a five-year-old in an adult body. She has made impulsive, poor decisions her whole life, is unbelievably dependent, and has such trouble managing her emotions. She has always relied on her children to meet her emotional needs. She "bleeds," emotionally, all over others, and has few boundaries. When my first husband died of a brain tumor nine years ago, and I was writing thank-you notes to people who had sent flowers, she began to sob and told me she was afraid to be a widow. She had said to my husband, just a few days before he died, "What's happening to you is killing me." Everything is about her. 

Though I am lucky she lives far away right now, I am TERRIFIED of having to care for her when she gets sick as continued aging sets in. Before this happens, I want to learn some new behaviors and outlooks and boundaries of my own, and realize that it is not my responsibility to stop her pain or fix her. All my life, I have tried to fill that "black hole" inside her, and it has never worked. And I have never had a real mother, which breaks my heart. I feel embarrassed sometimes that I still want that.

Thanks for listening. 

[Sunnys Blues]

(and it’s SO hard to explain to others that this is NOT pride, I would like so much to be able to accept some of that money, but maybe some of you know the price you have to pay if you do, literally a piece of your soul. I’ve been there, and I’m not doing it again).

I understand. I learned a long time ago that I could get a better interest rate on my soul by dealing with the Devil than with my uBPD mother.

I too, have been on the bank account with my mother. I had another separate account, and she managed to get the account number, and she stared paying HER bills with ACH's through MY account. She then proceeded to give HER money away to her lazy family. My therapist calls it enmeshment, and the best thing I ever did was separate my finances and my obligations from her. No longer will I accept phone calls from the utilities company, because she didn't pay the bill and listed me as the "financially responsible" person on her account. After this past Mom's Day, I am now back to NC with my mother. The best thing ever- she has to pay her own bills, and take care of her own life herself. I am not available to help her with this stuff. As she likes to remind me, she's been a grown woman 30 years longer than ME!

[HazelJade]

I've come back from my work trip and just wanted to say thank you guys for sharing your stories.

BabeRuthless I can relate to so many things you say. The "black hole" quality is what has scared me all through my life, without being able to put it in words like these. Or to explain to my father why it feels so dangerous being around him. It's really too difficult to describe but it's there. It sounds like you do have solid boundaries in place, and the distance is definitely a safe one. I know what you mean by being TERRIFIED of taking care of her, cause it's the same feeling I have. Do you know, for a couple of years now I've been asking to friends what I should do if something bad happens, I'm the only person who can take care of him, and everybody's advice was along the lines of "you will cross that bridge once you'll get there". It never made me feel better. I have very recently started building some sort of small of "rescuing squad/support system"; on my list for now there are just two names, a trusted doctor, and a  nurse. It is making me feel much better, cause at least I know that I won't be completely alone. I thought to share it with you, maybe it could work for you too. You know, just for yourself, for knowing that there's an emergency plan out there... .

many blessings to you.

SunnyBlues, this was just perfect:

I understand. I learned a long time ago that I could get a better interest rate on my soul by dealing with the Devil than with my uBPD mother.

It made me laugh a little, which always helps. It's so true, though.

I'm very sorry about the financial mess your mother has created, but glad to read you have disantangled yourself so succesfully. I hope I can do the same thing too one day. A few things have happened since I'm back but I still don't know if they'll work out, so it's too soon to talk. If I will have some new insights and success I will post again, for the others, cause reading success stories is always empowering. Thank you for this:)

[BabeRuthless]

I've read somewhere that we shouldn't just grieve the loss of the relationship we never had, but also the loss of the person we could have been and has somehow become so difficult to become.

HazelJade: How are you today? Just wanted to say hi.

I re-read this entire thread and relate to so much of what you are saying... . thank you for sharing honestly. Re: quote above about what we could have been, if we'd had healthier parent(s)... . I have spent so much of life trying to keep going, that I have not really learned how to feel good. I have seldom been able to identify and pursue activities I enjoy, to counter the intense pain of family problems and lost identity and potential. Psychologically and emotionally just putting one foot in front of the other -- even when material resources have been adequate -- with energy zapped by others' mental illness and my own responses to it.

I so want to change this now. Sometimes I feel resentful about having to deal with my troubled parents and other family members as a child... . Now, just as I am starting to find my bearings in middle age, my folks are older and seem to want something from me that I'm resisting giving. I'm afraid I don't have proper boundaries. Sad because I contact my parents mostly out of guilt and obligation. Afraid I'll be "punished" somehow if I don't bend over backwards for them and sacrifice myself for them. Afraid others will consider me self-centered and unloving for finally taking some time to nurture my own soul. But I'm learning to be a little braver! 

You mentioned that you feel physically ill at times re: your dad... . I am sorry to hear this. And I understand. There are times when I actually fear that I will "catch" my mother's desperation and outlook, and just being around her reminds me of pain, being trapped, and self-loathing.

Didn't mean this to be so long. Hope your work trip went well. Hang in there... . And I'll look forward to hearing more.

[HazelJade]

Thank you for thinking of me, BabeRuthless.

I honestly don't know how I am.

Something I haven't written before; I came here on these boards a couple of years ago to ask support for the end of a relationship with a pwBP boyfriend. It's just very recently that I have started understanding where the problem is coming from. It's really taxing, some days I'd just like to forget about everything.  It is exactly as you say here, for me too:

Psychologically and emotionally just putting one foot in front of the other -- even when material resources have been adequate -- with energy zapped by others' mental illness and my own responses to it.

I so want to change this now.

About this:

Sad because I contact my parents mostly out of guilt and obligation.

I decided I couldn't this anymore, cause the feeling of loosing my authentic self just got too big. Back in September I made it clear with my dad why I'm not contacting him, and can't see him more than once every 3 months. For a while things seemed to get better, but recently all started to go south again, always with the excuse of financial responsabilities.

After having your support here, I eventually decided to go and see him in person to explain my position re: the financial situation in a clear but not threatening way. It took all my courage, but It was really important to me that he would understand that I wasn't abandoning him, but that I just didn't feel like being involved financially with him anymore. I even promised to keep my name on the account for emergencies but that he would have to stop calling me for the bills or with other excuses or send me letters. Has it worked? of course not.

He went into panic mode, saying that I was killing him and throwing him away.

He told me he has nothing in his life, that he doesn't get along with my mother (this in front of her) and that I am the only thing he has. He was so panicky that while talking he called me "mom". Scaring stuff, eh?

This of course just confirms me that I was right, the financial entanglement is just a way to be sure I'm still there.

I kept my cool, I told him that if he accepts to go to a doctor and take the medicines the hospital prescribed him when he was hospitalized for his suicide attempt  I would visit him more often; this is the very same thing I told him before starting LC, and of course he had the very same reaction. He yelled at me that Im the one who needs to see a doctor. Which is exactly what I'm doing, now, and more than one, because I'm spiritually, emotionally, and physically exhausted.

The reality is that nothing works, either one chooses to establish boundaries and being authentic, or one calls them or sees them out of a sense of obligation.

Today he called me again to remind me to change the oil in the car.

I was so tired that I asked him to write me all his detailed instructions, just because I can't take his calls anymore. I hate how he's never honest, he never says "I called you to know how you are, or because I wanted to chat with you", no, it's always something that I have to do for him, on his exact terms. Having power and control over people is the only way his fear of abandonment subsides. How sad is that.

I know he will write me one of his long paper of detailed instructions, because obviously I'm incapable of changing the oil in the car, or doing anything really without his instructions. I hate these papers, they have followed me all my life.

But... . do I regret what I did? No. I just shortened the telephone call to a 30 seconds flat, and today it felt much better than authenticity. I'm saying this to tell you... . Maybe your "calls out of sense of obligation" are just survival. Maybe this is the only solution really. This or total NC.

I really don't know what to think anymore, I really wanted to find a solution, but it always feels like square one.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me, it helps alot.

[StarStruck]

Hi HazelJade,

So you have tried to put a boundary in - ok it hasn't the exact fix you need straight away but it's all about your mindset, your development and to me looks like you are doing incredibly well. Its not until you start testing the area - in order to get your needs met, that you will know which way to go.

Nothing is straight forward, in a logical sense because They are not logical, well not how we would live by logic (it makes sense to them, them being disordered).

The best thing you have done is start this, you will chip away at this and sometimes you will suddenly come on very quickly, then stop for a bit... then reconsider. Until all the cracks in the wall have been filled. Then you will be looking at a blank wall for yourself and it's worth being patient for.

I came here on these boards a couple of years ago to ask support for the end of a relationship with a pwBP boyfriend. It's just very recently that I have started understanding where the problem is coming from. It's really taxing, some days I'd just like to forget about everything.  

You said in the above quote that you left a pwbp, then just recently started to come to terms with where the problem is coming from - to clarify, do you mean as in the root of this... the problems of pd's stem from your father... . therefore thats why you met a pwbp?... . if so

I've had this experience and it was the biggest eye opener ever. It happened in a slightly different way. I was looking into troubled parents, then discovered that the troubled partner I had was PD... . then one on my parents was PD. Partner was Narc, mom BPD. I then become very keen (understatement) to find out as much as I could and what insight that told me about myself. To learn about NPD to the degree I did then see it in action in front of my eyes was something else back then. So the partner went first... . then I went on a long process of learning about my mom.

I had a 'quick' query here for the board, but it opened my mind into things like coping strategies and boundaries. What ended up by me thinking quick plaster over actually started a new wave of thinking and what I really needed and wanted.

I've got to say though, I knew I was missing something because I had wracked my brain for ages and knew there was no solution to the initial query but with advice for people who had been through it, also knew PD, I started thinking about it from a new angle, with me being in the centre of it. In fact the only way I would have got through the challenges I had. For my situation that was from a LC to NC with my Mom. A long process to find thats what I needed. Obviously I'm not advocating it, I can only tell you what happened in my situation. It came to me, to describe... calmfully, painfully, thoughtfully & joyously.

The more you know what your needs are... . which you are coming to nicely... . the more you will know which way to go with this. How much or little of a relationship you can have with your father to have a good life. It could tern out to be more than you think or less than you think... the answers will come, be patient with yourself and be kind (that may be a novel idea Lots of  

[HazelJade]

Star Struck,

thank you so much for your words of encouragement and for sharing your story. It sounds like you have really made the most of difficult experiences, without surrendering to pain and confusion; this is a great achievement.

To answer  your question, I don't know if I met my ex pwBPD boyfriend because of my father, they seemed SO different; I just know that eventually I realized that the dynamics of power struggle and hidden emotional manipulation were VERY similar, much more than I had realized in the first place. And my personal struggle with both of them, was eventually the same, to be seen, trusted and accepted for what I am.

This is very true:

Nothing is straight forward, in a logical sense because They are not logical... .

and it's true what you say to rely on my insticts and feelings and see where they take me. I have struggled so much with mantaining stricts boundaries with so little results that I feel exhausted; today I'm not even asking myself what to do, I'm focusing on who I want to be, and the answer that spontaneosuly is coming is that that all I need is to live acting and not re-acting, from a place of authenticity. Sometimes it will be establishing new boundaries, sometimes maybe will mean giving in to less important things, sometimes it will simply be letting myself looking sad or exhausted instead of putting up a wall of fake confidence in front of my father ... . I actually really don't see much difference among these things anymore. I don't know if all this makes sense, but this is the only "strategy" I have found so far. I'm focusing on my feelings, and it feels much better.

Again, thank you so much for your post.

[StarStruck]

Hi HazelJade

today I'm not even asking myself what to do, I'm focusing on who I want to be, and the answer that spontaneosuly is coming is that that all I need is to live acting and not re-acting, from a place of authenticity. Sometimes it will be establishing new boundaries, sometimes maybe will mean giving in to less important things, sometimes it will simply be letting myself looking sad or exhausted instead of putting up a wall of fake confidence in front of my father... . I actually really don't see much difference among these things anymore. I don't know if all this makes sense, but this is the only "strategy" I have found so far. I'm focusing on my feelings, and it feels much better.

Wow, I think this is inspired! Can I be happy for you... . I can't help it. I think you've just stepped your foot into your world... it's great... . this is where I journeyed to myself... you won't regret it one bit    

This takes a lot of brain power & hard work to be in a place to write what you have, enjoy what you have done for yourself & pat yourself on back!  


(understand what you said in ref to your father and ex... my ex and mom were very different but like you eloquently described not so different in terms of how those particular bits of the character affected you)

[HazelJade]

StarStruck,

thank you. Your words of encouragement mean a lot to me.

You've been such a precious support for me in this last month. Again, thank you so much.