Reignite the Fire - "Therapists Suck for Relationships... "

[learnandgrow]

So I'm seeing a therapist tomorrow for the first time to help me not only with the end of this BPD relationship but other underlying issues I might have.

I came across this article, which seems to dislike what mosts therapists recommend quite a bit www.reignitethefire.net/therapists-suck-for-relationships-and-options-are-king/


I just wanted to know how many of you here would agree/disagree with this and why. Is my BPD-ex into the new guy because of his passion and desirability? Is she going to treat him differently like this article says, or will he eventually meet the fate I and others have, one that most of the community here believes is typical?

Just looking for input and insight. I'm looking everywhere for help (understandably) to make sense of this and move forward.

[Turkish]

So I'm seeing a therapist tomorrow for the first time to help me not only with the end of this BPD relationship but other underlying issues I might have.

I just wanted to know how many of you here would agree/disagree with this and why. Is my BPD-ex into the new guy because of his passion and desirability? Is she going to treat him differently like this article says, or will he eventually meet the fate I and others have, one that most of the community here believes is typical?

Just looking for input and insight. I'm looking everywhere for help (understandably) to make sense of this and move forward.

There are a few things in there that I might agree with a little, but I see his overall tone as immature, condescending, and full of black and white thinking.

It may help a few of us understand why our BPDexes went for replacements that are obviously "beneath" us. Mine went for an immature college boy with blatant Narc traits, as opposed to me: self-made from nothing, six-figure salary, financially sound, mature, stable, a responsible Father.

So what are we really talking about? Do we want to change who we are to attract immature and fickle partners?

I encounter people like this blogger where I live in the California. By my judgment, this town is full of adults who act like teenagers, with about the same emotional maturity. Can't we do better to project what we want to attract, rather than being attracted to emotionally needy people?

I'm attracted to waifs. I chose to start a family with a person who said in so many words that she feared commitment, at an almost pathological level. That's on me. The fact that she abandoned me and chose to neglect our children to start a r/s with a kid, basically, who's immature even for his age; well, that's on her. My T told me a while back: "Next time, choose wisely!"

[WhatTheFrank]

My therapist never told ”Tell her you’re not sleeping with anyone else, you’re not going anywhere and that you want children with her.”

My therapist told me to leave in the healthiest way possible... . and it took me over a year to take her advice.  She saw the writing on the wall that was in invisible ink to me.

As far as therapists "A lot of them are crazies to begin with so they (naturally) make it a life mission to help people be not as crazy as them."

Some of this may be true, but mine definitely wasn't.  I think she saw all the crazies around her and it it her life mission... .

When my therapist first walked in, it was a woman in her early 60s, grandkids (I'm a 33 year old male), I thought "What am I going to have in common with this woman? and What am I going to be able to talk to her about?"  The first discussion we had was sympatico, and I'm so glad I gave it a chance.  She is/was like my Yoda

And the type of person that the author of that article lost to the musician?  Those are the exact type of women I've been trying to avoid all my life.  I thought my exBPDgf wasn't like that, or at least had grown out of that (judging by her chequered past), but I misjudged.  Now I have better knowledge and attitude, and know that I would rather be alone than be with that type of person again.

[Vatz]

Turkish used "condescending" and "black and white" to describe the article. I'd say he's *REALLY* on to something.

So I'm a chump, huh? That why my SO did what she did? Standing between my BPDSO and the idiot she got in a confrontation with makes me a-what was it? A wuss? Or all those times I had to physically restrain her when she either tried to hurt me or herself? Oh yeah, I'm such a sissy.  

As for the other bit about the "other guy" being artistic, I myself can draw. I'm the artistic loser who makes little money. Guess what? Somehow being THAT guy never really landed me many options. I don't treat my drawings like my life though. I'm chasing a different dream.

It looks as though the author is creating a caricature of a man, and using him as an example. Wait, that's what they call a straw-man, yes? Guess what though? Looks matter. Finances matter. All those other things do too. I guess these girls just gotta have it all.  

Another thing, someone's gotta put in those 40 hours at a desk job. I mean, not EVERYONE can just say F-it and pick up a guitar. So, do the all the Joes and Janes out there doing the boring work suddenly deserve no love?

Passion and excitement are important, but can you REALLY remain in that state every day? As for having options, that has more to do with you, and you can feel confident and secure. Use the fact that other women want you as a way to keep your woman in line? Wow, like, if a woman constantly reminded her husband how many men are after her, won't dudes call her a you-know-what?  Your "options" aren't going to be in the back of the woman's mind unless you keep reminding her, which is kind of a crummy thing. If you're attractive, she'll want to keep you around just for that reason alone.

But this guy seems to think that having options means losing someone isn't gonna bother them. If I had options I'd STILL grieve the end of our relationship. Honestly, if other women wanted me, it wouldn't have made a difference. I'd still have stuck with my BPDSO for the same reasons. I was in love, I thought her personality was unique, and I wanted to spend my life with her. I never bought into the "be a nice guy" stuff, either. I was nice because I WANTED to be. It's in my nature to look out for someone I'm with.

As for my ex, man, eventually all the abuse and what not caught up to me, and I was depressed. I wasn't fun anymore, but also I wasn't able to help her with her problems either. I am a rock, but even a rock can get worn down over time.

Regarding therapists, mine basically said "She's the weights tied to your ankles." At first I didn't want to look at her that way but, you know... . there comes a point where you realize that this relationship is wearing you out, not in a good way. Did my PWBPD find someone new? Probably? Does it hurt that she doesn't want to be with me? Incredibly so. Does it automatically mean that this other guy is better than me? Nope. I'm way cooler .

But I'm no chump for having put up with all the BS. I was in love, or is being in love a sign of weakness?

One thing that I say has merit is this: Look at ACTIONS. That's the one thing I came away with. Look at how the person acts. If you see these:  , then yeah you gotta do something. Usually the best thing is to stay away, but if you don't, always at least plan an exit strategy just in case you find yourself wanting to walk, but dug a hole. Mistake mitigation and all that, because we can't always avoid mistakes.

As for the author, he's like a bunch of other guys who write blogs about what turns women on. They all say almost exactly the same thing, there's always a condescending tone to it, like they're somehow better than most people.

Anyway, interesting topic Learnandgrow. Also, when I say "you" I don't literally mean you. I mean the straw-man that I'm talking to/about  .

[LettingGo14]

We each have a personal zen koan after our relationships.  A koan is defined as, "a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment."

We want answers.  We want logic, even in the illogical.  Yet, we are forced by the riddles of our relationships to twist and turn variables like a Rubik's cube.   Personally, I don't agree with the approach, or logic, or direction of the author in that article [no offense meant, learnandgrow, but it's like some jocular tool selling his brand of cool, not good mental health].

A good therapist, in my humble opinion, provides an environment in which you make realizations about yourself.  He or she may act as a guide, but you do not enter with an instruction manual, nor do you leave with an instruction manual.  You have moments of lucidity, and moments of "aha" and moments of acceptance.

Freud, I think, said -- "remember, repeat, work through" in his model of talk therapy.  Yet, sometimes, we think therapists are like emergency room doctors who will have a prescription, a band-aid, or some surgery to make us well.

Instead, in my experience, we do the hard work in therapy.   We do the digging.  We unpack the puzzle pieces, put them on the floor, and wonder how do they all fit together.

The T can help.  But be prepared to look in the mirror, to roll up your sleeves, and to "feel" rather than to "think."   That's where I think the real work is done.   Once I started to "feel" rather than "think" I started to have epiphanies.

Let us know how it goes.

[AG]

I cannot say that I acted exactly like this article states but I'll tell you that alot and I mean alot of my BPD ex behavior I just simply was not having. When she raged on the phone I hung that ish up. When she demanded to meet my family before I was ready I said no not until I'm ready. I would explain after her raging on the phone and me hanging up that she was yelling and screaming and that was unacceptable for me and that if she wanted to talk I was always there for that but not to be a punching bag. I tried to take Salsa classes to learn to dance with her since she danced Salsa and I did not and I thought it would be romantic only for her to rage about that and say I wanted to date women. I got so turned off that I ended up not going anymore. She raged about spending more time when we first started dating and said her ex used to spend everyday with her. I refused as we were only dating about 2 or 3 months at the time and hadn't progressed to the level of spending so much time together. I also told her that maybe we could spend each day together but he has to let it get there and raging was not going to make me do that any faster. I can list time after time again where I put my foot down.

I have read that article before and have wondered if the reason we were together so long was because I kept putting my foot down. However let me tell you what is bull ish about this article based on my experience. When you put your foot down with these people theyre behavior just keeps escalating higher and higher. My boundaries kept getting weaker and weaker over time. When I read the book stop walking on eggshells it talks heavily about boundaries and I didnt realize until I read it that towards the beginning for about the half of the year or maybe even more that I was already executing exactly how you are supposed too put your boundaries up. Let me tell you by the second year I was exhausted and feeling sick(mentally sick). By the second year it escalated so high that she swallowed a bottle of pills to keep me from going home. That was when my boundaries full fledge broke way the hell down and she had my full fledge sympathy.

You are not a chump at all dude. There is not doubt in my mind that before I met her I had very and I mean very good boundaries. There is no doubt in my mind that I was healthy. However do you know what would have been the best boundary? To leave her ass the first time she raged. I had sympathy though and belief in her having a good heart. I kept making excuses for her with belief that she could get better. So sure there is some truth to this article. They will keep chasing you so long as you keep them at bay but they will keep uping that bar every damn time until you crack. Over time you will crack I dont care how strong you are. So ask yourself who really is the chump you(a person who believed in her) or is the chump really her(a person who can't believe in themselves and uses others for temporary strength until she has drained the host)?

[goldylamont]

great conversation fellas. so, first off i hope you don't hate me, but i was kind of "that guy" in the article--meaning that i play guitar in a band and i had/have options. oddly enough though for me i never got women through playing music. i mostly do local shows, small time stuff, but music is a huge part of my life. when i play i'm extremely passionate, it's a huge emotional outlet for me, something i feel very lucky to have. only recently in the past year or so have i slowed down (one band ended on good terms), and switched to playing drums in a different band (a secret dream of mine for a long time). now i'm more focused on working out and business projects.

yet, here i am

first of all, regarding musicians, "getting girls" and the whole lot. look. i know tons of musicians. most of these guys are *not* swimmin' in women. and neither was i. whatever 'options' i had were because i worked at talking to women. because i had a stable enough life, decent enough living situation and because i feel like in general i'm a pretty cool dude. trying to get girls just b/c i was in a rock band just seems like such a cover for your own insecurities... . but i digress.

the truth about attraction is that people tend to be attracted to someone who is doing something, trying to be something, or simply about something. musicians can be attractive because they show intense emotions and this is a big turn on for women. athletes can be attractive because they are, well, athletic and respected if they are good. doctors, pilots and lawyers can be hot because they make good money, have high status and for some reason uniforms tend to turn a lot of women on   but no matter what you are, or what you do, the first thing that makes you attractive is your perceived status, confidence, humor, etc. good women want more and will demand integrity and honesty, and if it's their intention, stability. but we're really only talking about the initial stages of attraction here, before you really know the person. also what really makes someone attractive is simply how good they are at whatever they do--trust me, a spot on, successful, respected and talented accountant is more attractive than a so-so musician who isn't that good.

many of you know i like to play the devil's advocate from time to time. i do agree that the article is over the top and is drawing crazy generalizations out there. there are absolutely good therapists out there with excellent advice like others have pointed out. but, the particular advice the therapist gave the guy in this article was flat out *horrible*. telling your patient to basically impale himself on a good-guy spear thinking this would create attractiveness with the ex was terrible advice. and i think the author is correct (although in an over-the-top dick-ish way) that the guy has no business trying to impress or get his ex back in this situation. stop giving her narc supply and improve your own life is the harsh but best thing to do.

to me the author has a much better understanding of youthful attraction than either the therapist or the patient in this case. of course it's not true that all women are drawn to men with 'options', etc. just like it's not true that all men are drawn to women because of their looks. but, ask yourself, how attractive did you find your xBPD? and are you saying that this had *no* bearing on why you loved them so much? women also have qualities they find attractive, it doesn't have to be what defines who they are with though, but it exists and it's not a mystery.

when i first started on these boards i was bombarded with the question, "well, what's wrong with you? why'd you stay in the relationship with her so long then?". i always hold my tongue about my true thoughts on this so as not to offend, but i'll just be straight up with you guys on this thread. i stayed in this r/s as long as it was more good than bad. when it was way more bad than good, i left. and, why did it last 4 years and was the longest for both of us? honestly i feel like because i wasn't like most of the men she's used to being with. i remember early on my ex tried making me jealous by drifting off and talking with other guys. i never even brought this up with her. when she turned around, there i was talking with a group of people and cute women were giving me attention. she stopped that ___ quick. no arguments. and honestly it wasn't that big of a problem throughout our r/s after that. i think the power dynamic between us was relatively even which is why the r/s lasted so long. she was a looker and was used to men giving her what she wanted and giving her their hearts on a stick in no time flat. i was aloof, always loving and fair, my emotions were real, but i don't even think we started talking about being a committed couple for months. i made her wait. and she made me fall in love, which used to be very hard for me to do. so there was a balance. i'm sure my ex felt insecure within the first year we were together, but she didn't up and leave i think because i had more to offer her. i wasn't giving in and doing everything to try and please her, but i was still loyal and in my opinion more even tempered than other 'nice guys' she had dated that probably freaked out whenever she threatened their insecurities. what i'm saying is that i think the author of the article is onto something when he talks of 'options'. i didn't want anyone else but my ex. but i had options and she knew it. contrast this to the two r/s i knew about after we broke up--instead of 48 months, they lasted 4 months, then 6 months each. both guys fawned over her, over communicated, over loved and eventually bored her. (she actually told me this about the first 'replacement'

i was reading a thread by pwBPD and they were openly discussing how they saw patterns in the types of men they chose to be with. they would seek out weaker, more malleable men who wouldn't trigger their abandonment fears so much initially and were easier to control. and then when this got boring they'd go for something more 'exciting' until they couldn't stand their lack of control anymore, then run back to someone where they felt they could control themselves (and subsequently the man) more.

listen, at the end of the day none of this matters -- a pwBPD can be with both ends of the spectrum, from a very insecure person to an overly confident narcissist and anyone in-between. yet none of the relationships will work out. so there's nothing inherently wrong with you or i why they chose to freak out and leave.

in fact, if anything what gets to me about the article is that **everyone** there is giving way too much credibility to what the pwBPD was saying. sure, there's laws of attraction and this plays a part. but this plays a part in healthy r/s too. the reason the pwBPD left is b/c she's a pwBPD. the reason she said those hurtful things to her ex is because that's what many pwBPD do. it's *not* because he's some hot guitarist that is better than this guy. sure, 'options' play a role in attraction. but my ex rubbed her new bf in my face and idealized him to no end. want some irony? the only time i met him was when he helped her move out of my apartment. i'm so glad i saw him because immediately i was shocked--i do not participate in trying to diminish my replacements because in my case they seem like nice enough guys, but honestly, i can tell you with authority that this guy had far less 'options' than i. IT DOESN'T MATTER   oh, the irony was that while they were moving out i was practicing drums in my studio with my new band at the time. i had invited friends over so i had some support and because i was worried that my ex would try and start something between me and her current bf in my damn house. so if that's not a reversal of the story from the article then i don't know what the hell is!

, hey guys, have a great great weekend! it's warm and gorgeous out

[goldylamont]

They will keep chasing you so long as you keep them at bay but they will keep uping that bar every damn time until you crack. Over time you will crack I dont care how strong you are. So ask yourself who really is the chump you(a person who believed in her) or is the chump really her(a person who can't believe in themselves and uses others for temporary strength until she has drained the host)?

can i buy you a beer?  loved your post

[AG]

They will keep chasing you so long as you keep them at bay but they will keep uping that bar every damn time until you crack. Over time you will crack I dont care how strong you are. So ask yourself who really is the chump you(a person who believed in her) or is the chump really her(a person who can't believe in themselves and uses others for temporary strength until she has drained the host)?

can i buy you a beer?  loved your post

Thanks man . Just read your post it was a good stuff too.