Update. I do have custody now.

[manicmuse]

Went to court wendsday and we've been busy since then getting settled.

Her DYfs worker showed. He stated she can't pass a drug test. Refuses counseling even when provided transportation and the school had called 6times this onto alone.

She was high and uncontrollable and even still on denial.

There was no choice and everyone saw the concern.

The judge didn't even care where they'd be living didn't ask if I was ready it was that bad. Now to try and help the kids get over it all. In all the 6daya they've been here not one time have any of them said they miss her. Sad really   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lever.]

I'm pleased to hear that you have secured your grandchildren's safety and wish you all the best with the task of settling them in and supporting them.

It is indeed sad about your daughter and I hope things improve for her in the future.

[HealingSpirit]

What an absolute NIGHTMARE!  I am so sorry to hear this.  It must be so sad to see your DD screwing up her life and the lives of her children.  Those kids are soo lucky to have you and that you are willing to take them in.  My heart breaks for them.  But from now on, they can look forward to a loving, stable home.  Manicmuse, you are an angel for doing this!

[pessim-optimist]

Hello again, manicmuse.

You are right, it's a sad victory. But at least the kids are safe, and you can give them some stability. 

Now to try and help the kids get over it all. In all the 6daya they've been here not one time have any of them said they miss her.

This kind of trauma is complicated. Kids tend to love their parents no matter what, and even if they are afraid of them, they crave their love. It's been too short of a time since the traumatic chaos, and also, they may have been conditioned to NOT talk about certain topics, or they may not even know how they feel... .

Do you think you will be able to provide a therapist for them? There is a long road ahead of them... .

[manicmuse]

Yes I actually contacted BACA who helped with advice about saving them. They came yesterday too do an intake. They won't be the only therapy but it's a start. A counselor was with them. They were great. BACA  is Bikers Against Child Abuse.

The horror stories are plenty. Also she's calling Dyfs the police making all kinds of false reports instead if getting help.

The judge told her she doesn't even see how she's affecting her children. He was right.

I nean they made the oldest kill a kitten. Their cat has a litter or 2 every year that's how they get rid of them. She told me they made her tie it up in a bag walked her to a dumpster and throw it in. She carries that now. And feels guilty.

She also used my heart attack last yr as an excuse to go out. She said she visited be and I said I wished I'd died so that I didn't have to see her face. She never even called and I don't speak that way to anyone let alone my child.

I did I think figure out where her BPD comes from. We were separated when she was 10daya old. I had a blood clot in my lung. 10 days in the hospital. A therapist told me that would do it it's mostly separation issues.

[InnerSpin]

Manicmuse, I am sorry to hear of your struggles but glad you now have the children safe with you. Please don't forget to look after yourself and make sure you get some 'me' time.

I have to comment on the so-called therapist who claims that a 10 day old baby, separated from its mother for 10 days can 'get' BPD. I think that therapist is sick in the head themselves and needs in-depth therapy to stop making such ridiculous claims.

Good luck to you x

[pessim-optimist]

Yes I actually contacted BACA who helped with advice about saving them. They came yesterday too do an intake. They won't be the only therapy but it's a start. A counselor was with them. They were great.

That is so good to hear, manicmuse... .

I did I think figure out where her BPD comes from. We were separated when she was 10daya old. I had a blood clot in my lung. 10 days in the hospital. A therapist told me that would do it it's mostly separation issues.

While your therapist is correct that the 10 day separation may have created some separation trauma/issues, in otherwise healthy children that by itself would not pose a major problem.

Children, who later develop BPD, tend to have a bit different neurological makeup. They are usually highly sensitive as babies and parents looking back often spot little things in the past that were a bit off... .

In other words - the research tends to come to the conclusion that there is a predisposition to BPD.

So, in your case, the separation may have been a major contributing factor to your daughter's budding BPD, but please don't blame yourself for 'causing' your daughter's illness by being sick at that time... .

[manicmuse]

I really don't blame me anymore. I have for 28 years worked to help her. I can't do anymore. She has to want to change her life now. I fear for her life but it's the path she's choosing. At least I was able to get the kids out of that nightmare.

If you knew my daughter and I we are night and day. I know she's sick but thesers a darkness there I'll never understand. I do things out of love. I can't imagine a life of manipulation greed and surrounding yourself with child molesters and even one of her friends was arrested for killing her grandmother for 40 dollars.

I just can't and won't ever get it.

[InnerSpin]

I am sorry, but with an enormous amount of respect, could I please re-post something I've posted before. I really do feel passionate about this. (and I totally don't buy that a 10 day old baby can be 'traumatised' by a 10 day maternal separation. How an earth can that be verified?)

I strongly dispute the effects of childhood experiences as the cause of BPD or any other mental disorder. I am not a physiatrist, but speak from the real life experiences of bearing and raising 3 very different children. My BPD daughter (38) was my firstborn. A longed for, beautiful, intelligent baby girl who was and is loved and adored.  My second-born is a boy (35) with Asperger’s Syndrome, equally loved. My third child, a girl, is a beautiful, clever and popular person (just married) who could confidently be referred to as ‘normal’. All the children have the same parentage.  All the children had the same love and attention and experienced the same ups and downs, including some unsettling periods. They were brought up in the hub of extended family – my sisters’ children mainly. None of them were ones for scouts, brownies or other clubs so the opportunity for any ‘inappropriate’ secretive incidents that could have traumatised them is nil.

My eldest two children were always ‘difficult’ kids, but in different ways. At the time, I admit, I used to wonder if it was me as a parent, whether I was doing it all wrong. Was I being too strict, or was I too lenient? People all had their own opinions and solutions, but this was in the days when it was ALWAYS the parents fault (a bit like no bad dogs – just bad owners).

Childhood conditions such as ADAH etc were only in the early stages of being recognised.

I certainly don’t claim to be the perfect parent. All I know is that I loved (and love) my children very much, have always been there for them and would do anything to make each of them happy.

I’m not suggesting that childhood experiences, especially, I suspect, sexual abuse would not have a devastating effect on a person, but how does the ‘world of psychology’ explain the fact that many of these people go on to live productive, loving and empathetic lives using their experiences to ensure no child of theirs will ever suffer such a nightmare.

I am convinced that many, many hours in therapists offices are wasted by digging up and raking through old memories which they can then conveniently attribute to the patients problems. This then arms the patient with myriad reasons/excuses to carry on the way they are because ‘all of this has been done to me. I’m not responsible for my actions’.

This of course, is actually true but not, in the main, because of emotional trauma. People are born with predetermined attributes including the make-up of the brain. It’s like saying you get Alzheimer’s or Parkinson’s disease because of a traumatic childhood.

I suggest no-one trains for a career in psychology before producing 3/4 offspring with the same partner and watching them grow up. Granted, there would be scant few ‘professionals’ around.

Failing that, I would urge immediate and extensive research into brain function re personality disorders to establish true cause as a base to then exploring effective treatments.

These are my beliefs based on 61 years first-hand experience.

OK, I'm sorry if I'm going a little off topic, manicmuse, but us parents already bear enough guilt knowing we gave birth and life to a tortured soul without the added guilt of thinking we did/allowed something to happen to them to cause it.

I'm not saying that earl trauma (that which is remembered) does not contribute to a persons adult make-up, but there is actually more and more evidence coming to light to prove genetics is THE major ingredient in PDs. I just pray that research continues swiftly so that we can, at last, put some effective solutions into the mix.

Thank you for listening, and I do have an enormous amount of respect for every single person that finds themselves here.

[lever.]

InnerSpin- after working in mental health services for many years and raising my two daughters I tend to agree with you.

The best model I have seen is the bio-psycho-social one. i.e - a genetically/biologically vulnerable person develops poor psychological coping skills and then melts down when under social stress.

I can see how a child with disrupted attachments at a slightly older age would be affected but not really a newborn with mum in hospital and then quickly re-united.

Just my penny's worth.

[manicmuse]

Thank you for all the replys. I actually agree with all of that.

I know whatever is wrong is organic. I also have 2 other children who are fantastic adults. Responsible caring people.

My 2 sisters and I were abused by our father all three of us are strong confident women with good jobs. Were all happy. When we butt heads though we are stubborn

The point is well taken without the organic problem a "normal" person can move on.

Her middle child is the only one who acts somewhat like she does. Now I'm not sure if she mirroring her mother or there is an organic thing going on. She did see a neurologist last month I'll get the report at the Dr on the 14th. But she is doing well responding to positive reinforcement.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kate4queen]

I was separated from my mother when I was born and taken to a hospital special care baby unit, which my mum couldn't get to easily having no car and 3 older children. Then my sisters all got measles so I couldn't go home for about 4 weeks. I didn't end up with BPD or attachment or abandonment issues.

I suspect the brain has to prewired and predisposed to make such separation a major issue.

My son who has BPD spent 4 years being carried on my hip before he learned to walk and was never separated from me for a minute.

So please don't blame yourself.