Now I feel sorry for her...

[Alex86]

The problem is the more I understand about my ex's condition the less hateful I become. My ex didn't cheat but she would find all the excuses in order not to be together.

My ex had explained to me that when she was in "all is perfect" mood, she didn't feel fine but the opposite.

Now let me borrow OutOfEgypt's dialog and edit it with brackets about what I believe a pwBPD really thinks behind the mask:

Them:  I'm the winner.  You're the loser!  Look at me!  Look at me!  Happy as can be!

[Oh please I can't bear losing you... . I am trying to show you a happy face but I'm dying inside]

Us:  (writhing in pain)  "No... but that's not true!  Look at all you have done!"

Them:  Oh yeah?  Well, who is the one walking away like its nothing?  Who is the happy one who has a great new life?  Not you!  Who is the one with all these new friends?  Not you!

[No you 're right... All I'm trying to do is not to face my inner problems because I'm so afraid and shamed about them... . I can't process them... I don't have a self to do that.]

Us:  But, that's not right!  You're playing games and putting that on me!

Them:  No.  I'm not doing anything.  It's simply that you cannot get over it.  It's you who is the problem.  I'm innocent.  I'm just a happy person, and you're the unhappy one.  I'm right.

[I'm trying to put the blame on you but deep inside I know I'm an awful person... and my feelings of shame are overwhelming... I don't really know how to control them... ]

Us:  (burning with anger)  Grrrrrrrrr  (churning ourselves up inside)

Them:  See?  Look at you.  It's your fault.  You're the loser, and I'm fine.  Others agree.  I told you for years it was you.  I'm right.

[For one time I want to feel that I'm right and be in control... Please tell me that I'm right because your opinion matters and will prove me that I don't deserve to be with you]

Us:  (burning with anger) Grrrrrrrrrrrr (churning ourselves up inside more, feeling lower and lower, as our bitterness squelches our life and we "become" the loser in the game.  We fulfill the role they wrote for us.)

------

Isn't this right? She did tried her best to be the most loving partner. She did what she could by mirroring us because this is what she has learnt to do in order to survive in reality. She didn't know how to do it properly because she may not have felt what is the real love. And that terrified her.

In the end, isn't true that we also sometimes "lie" about our true feelings? How many times have we put on a happy face at work in order not to show the other people that we are sad and not feeling well?Isn't this our defense mechanism?

Please bear with me. Maybe my co dependency wants to excuse words and actions. Maybe I want only to keep the good memories. Ahh I don't know anymore, all I want is her hug.

[enlighten me]

I too feel sorry for my exs.

Knowing that they will never find what theyre truly seeking and that the only chance they have of getting anywhere close to it is to do what they fear most and open up to someone and put their heart on the line.

I have heard a lot of different analogies as to what a person with BPD feels and how they act and have a thought of my own.

It reminds me of when you have visitors and your dog comes to you for attention. You fuss the dog but send it away as its too demanding. The dog moves onto someone else and gets some fuss but eventually is sent away again. The dog goes around everyone being fussed and then rejected. It doesn't mean that the dog prefers someone else to you but that it is not getting the fuss it is after from you so seeks it elsewhere.

Now don't misinterpret this as Im saying a person with BPD is a dog or has the mental capacity of a dog. What I am doing is over simplifying the behaviour.

The rejection that they feel even if unjustified leads them to fill their need from another source. Whether this is a friend telling them that they are a good person, the unrequited love of a family member or another lover.

It is not something they can not control very well and not intended in my mind to hurt us but to fill a need within them. We have all unintentionally hurt someone for our own selfish wants at sometime in our life. A lot of the times we have probably not even realised we have done it and so I believe it is for a person with BPD

[OutOfEgypt]

Hey Alex.  I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling sorry for them.  Sometimes I am furiously angry, but then when I remember the truth it mellows that anger and I see that she's more like the Wizard of Oz.  It's all show and smoke screens and flashes.  It's an act.  Underneath it all is someone who is very, very empty.  They are just wonderful at covering it up.

I don't know that I feel "sorry" for her in the sense that I am like "awwwww... . poor thing... . it must be so terrible for you.  I wish I could help you."  I'm past that.  I feel sorry in that I see the truth and feel sad for what could have been.  I feel sorry that she lost someone (me) who TRULY loves/loved her.  And I feel a sense of relief in seeing that her bravado is all an act.

[Strangerinthemirror]

I know how you feel. I agree with OoE that there's nothing wrong with feeling sorry for your ex. It IS a sad situation. The thing is, it seems to me (and my T) is to not the sympathy change your plans for reclaiming your life. In my case, i've endured countless, literally, texts and emails from my ex deriding, belittling, criticizing, blaming, and abusing me -- yet the moment I told her I've hired a lawyer and am getting advice, I've had hundreds of texts and emails (until I blocked her) begging me to reconsider, offering to "do anything" to change my mind. But all the while, if I bother to read her texts, I can see she is still blaming me as though I am acting out of anger and hurt over something trivial (like her demand I get therapy for anger management, something my new T thinks is really her issue not mine; mine is around spending 5 years trying to rationalize her behavior and save her). She has no capacity to see her role in any of this and to understand herself. So, while I feel sympathy, I'm not going to get dragged back into the fantasy and live through it again. I wish her well and hope she eventually finds peace. I just wish the same for myself, too.

[Alex86]

She has no capacity to see her role in any of this and to understand herself. So, while I feel sympathy, I'm not going to get dragged back into the fantasy and live through it again. I wish her well and hope she eventually finds peace. I just wish the same for myself, too.

I suppose my case is not as complicated as yours with cheating, lying (or I believe so) etc. I had the blaming and all the other stuff but I don't have such a solid basis to hate her.

Yes I feel sympathy for her. At the same time as OoE I also feel so sad and angry how things turned out. It was really so simple to just ask for help and I would try to help her with all my heart. Of course she didn't do it.

Sometimes I feel ashamed about this whole codepedency thing.

Thanks for listening.

[Strangerinthemirror]

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate my ex. Never really did. I hated her actions, not her. I just don't have any more reserves left to tolerate the situation.

As for shame, I'll bet there's not a single one of us who doesn't experience that emotion.

Stay strong.

[peiper]

Im just coming to grips with this. I do feel sorry for her after learning about this but it doesnt make the hurt and anger any less.

[woodsposse]

All this talk about feeling sorry for the ex and their disorder is all warm and fuzzy and the like... . but lets be real.

They are not insane and know exactly what they are doing. You can feel sorry all you like and have empathy and such... . but to say they can't help it like they have cancer or something does a disservice to you and tour well being.

Where were they when they raged or heated or blamed you for things you didnt do or didnt sayand lleft you holding the bag trying to figure out up from down.

No... . dont hate them... . butpplease for all that is good... . accept otout for what it is and move on.

[OutOfEgypt]

I agree 100%.  Well said.

[peiper]

In my case its hard to accept it for what it is. After what shes done I go from saddness to anger. The only thing I really did wrong was put up with it and hope it would get better. After talking to my T I understand no matter what I would have done the outcome would have been the same. I dont hate her but at the same time I have no good will towards her at the moment.

[OutOfEgypt]

It's hard to accept it for all of us.  But its a matter of life and death.  We either continue to choose to face reality and let go of the "ooey gooey" fantasy-based feelings that still put them on a pedestal and paint them in this goddess-like light, or we stay stuck on them for the rest of our lives.  But I understand.  Part of what gets you stuck is getting to the place where you REALLY believe that there's nothing you could have done.  So long as there is a sliver of doubt, you keep running back to obsessing about what could have been.

But here's another way of looking at it.  My ex wife was somewhat correct about many of her complaints about me.  However, she ignored the fact that she a) fed into those problems with her abuse, and b) focused on those things as a way to get the eyes off of herself and have me focused entirely on fixing myself in order to be good enough for her.  Their whole thing is about getting us to feel like we are responsible and to get us to focus on them and their needs all the time.  But it is still never enough.  You can't fill a black hole.

[Dutched]

Alex 86 / outOfEgyt,  You are right with that dialog!

That is what it is, they did it to us.  

Never the less all the criteria/behaviour that belongs to the disorder.

Never the less our part in the R/S or our hurt inner child, etc.

Yes, I understand that we must “move on”, work on that, however we come from an abusive r/s.

Yes, we find comfort, motivation, insight and a lot of wisdom among our friends in BPD Family, live saving friends in many cases, for which I thank all!

However, we are hurt at the deepest and most vulnerable place in our soul which we opened in trust and love for what WE loved most on this blue ball  

Any break up (as in my case after a 30+ yrs) leaves long lasting marks.

I am aware of that, aware to move forward, find a total new live again (can’t even rebuilt my savings any more for my retirement…), lost my daughter in the “process” too, etc.

But… from what kind of r/s did we come from? A “normal” one?  (never had another one). I really didn’t think so.

Based on others that did have a “normal” relationship and divorced/left, etc. I spent a lot of time searching for answer on the effects of a divorce on children (have 2, better have 1 left…) and stumbled on the book of

Mrs. Judith S. Wallenstein & Sandra Blakeslee,  “Second Chances: Men, Women & Children a decade after divorce”. It was the most thorough long term study ever undertaken about the effects.

BTW, “normal” relationships…

Incredibly, one-half of the women and one-third of the men are still intensely angry at their former spouses despite the passage of ten years. Because their feelings have not changed, anger has become an ongoing, and sometimes dominant presence in their children's lives as well.

... . A third of the women and a quarter of the men, mostly the older ones, feel that life is unfair, disappointing, and lonely. It is sobering to see how unhappy they are at this stage (p. 29).

... . There is no evidence that time automatically diminishes feelings or memories; that hurt and depression are overcome; or that jealously, anger, and outrage will vanish. Some experiences are just as painful ten years later; some memories haunt us for a lifetime. People go on living, but just because they have lived ten more years does not mean they have recovered from the hurt (p. 30).

Wallerstein explains that our society has an unprecedented number of parents and children who have gone through divorce, but that does not seem to make it any easier. The causes of divorce have not changed, nor have men's and women's feelings changed. The amount of suffering is no less. People like to think that because there are so many divorced families, adults and children will find divorce easier or even easy. But neither parents nor children find comfort in numbers. Divorce is not a more "normal" experience simply because so many people have been touched by it.

From a summary found at www.waynegrudem.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Summary-of-Judith-Wallerstein-book-on-consequences-of-divorce1.pdf

Were did we come from, "normal"?

Her “4 yr old brain” tilted as a pinball machine and as a consequence made a decision “in ultimate despair”, “in ultimate survival mode”. However, her mature brain knows very, very well all the consequences, no doubt whatever (at least in my case with a high functioning BPD).

And in my case years before she blew all up, she knew “something” was wrong, refused treatment, total denial, etc

So I don’t feel sorry for her, she made a choice and has to live with it, as she will have to carry that burden (in fact now 2 already, as she did the same with her parents when she was 18yr.). As she told me years and years about her now heavy weight burden with her parents, I know this 2nd time it will be a burden that will break her one day. Never the less the mask, “friends” an a future r/s which will in her case be hollow superficial as she can’t give him any trust anymore, fearing intense that abandonment.

With all my knowledge gained in a 6-7 yrs. now, I am stuck at:

I don’t hold ex responsible for her disorder, I do hold her responsible for refusing treatment and ruining my family.

[Tausk]

The problem is the more I understand about my ex's condition the less hateful I become.

A cornerstone of the healing for me was when I was able to at times see both the positives and negatives about my interactions with my ex.  Not thinking in black and white.  Finding the grays, which leads to compassion and maybe someday forgiveness for both me and my ex.

And not hating is a first step.  :)o they deserve our pity?  Absolutely.  They live in the horror that only a traumatized three-year old living her worst nightmare would understand.  I used to think that I'm emotionally tough, but I know now that my emotional maturity is so low that I would go insane if I were forced to feel my ex's caustic and eviscerating terror even for a second.   I'd just go mad.  So I feel pity and compassion for her because she doesn't even have any of the tools to deal with her shame.

Yes, she may know what she does, but she doesn't really have the capacity to process her flaws.   So the shame just builds up.  PwBPD don't get better for the most part.  They become really bitter old cat ladies or curmudgeons who yell at kids on their lawns.  Or look at the homeless bag-people on the street.   Look into their eyes and interact with them.  You'll find your ex in many of them.

The Disorder always wins.  The only way not to lose is not to engage.  And the only way to leave the Disorder is as a victim.  

But this does not mean I excuse my ex's behaviors.  I don't enable them.  They are wrong and destructive.  And I will not participate in her destruction anymore.  

It means that I move on.  Accept the Disorder for what it is.  And look at my issues.  Find compassion for myself.  Find forgiveness for myself... . and for my ex, pity ,compassion and one day if I can... . forgiveness for her.

One of my favorite lines from poster 2010:

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

[OutOfEgypt]

It means that I move on.  Accept the Disorder for what it is.  And look at my issues.  Find compassion for myself.  Find forgiveness for myself... . and for my ex, pity ,compassion and one day if I can... . forgiveness for her.

Accept *her* for what/who she is.  Focusing on how monstrous they are is useful only to a point.  At some point it has to turn into acceptance.  Acceptance doesn't mean "it's ok... . so let them back into my life."  But it does mean coming to peace with the truth and with how things are so that you don't have to hold onto them anymore -either out of dazed sentimentalism or hateful bitterness.  Forgiving them is huge.  It just means you no longer hold them hostage in your mind/heart for their crimes against you.  You let them go.  I find the times I do the best, at least for me with where I'm at, is where I genuinely wish her well and support her as the mom of my kids, as dysfunctional as she is. 

[Strangerinthemirror]

Lot of wisdom in OoE's last post. Resonates with me. Thanks, OoE.

[Blimblam]

tausk,

I disagree I think the disorder itself and the behaviors of the disorder are their tools for dealing with their shame.  They are very powerfull tools for dealing with shame. Unfortunately this shame is projected onto others.  We identify with this shame, or else why would we stick around?  We have our own trauma that causes us shame at our core.  Now our own inner shame has been brought to the surface.  What are the origins of our shame?  Ive been investigating this and it is in my FOO.  WHere are the origins of their shame? Within their own FOO.  It has been passed down through generations.  Archaic wounds. Shame.

Every advertisement on TV I see, shame.  It is everywhere.  Why do we *need* to buy a bunch of usless crap? To hide from our inner shame.  It is the foundation of an entire system of controls.

[strong9]

It's hard to accept it for all of us.  But its a matter of life and death.  We either continue to choose to face reality and let go of the "ooey gooey" fantasy-based feelings that still put them on a pedestal and paint them in this goddess-like light, or we stay stuck on them for the rest of our lives.  But I understand.  Part of what gets you stuck is getting to the place where you REALLY believe that there's nothing you could have done.  So long as there is a sliver of doubt, you keep running back to obsessing about what could have been.

But here's another way of looking at it.  My ex wife was somewhat correct about many of her complaints about me.  However, she ignored the fact that she a) fed into those problems with her abuse, and b) focused on those things as a way to get the eyes off of herself and have me focused entirely on fixing myself in order to be good enough for her.  Their whole thing is about getting us to feel like we are responsible and to get us to focus on them and their needs all the time.  But it is still never enough.  You can't fill a black hole.

Is it wrong if I don't feel ready to forgive her?

[OutOfEgypt]

No.  I don't think I would say it's wrong.  It's just a part of the healing process, a goal to head toward.  In fact, admitting our inability to get there right now is important, too.  We need help.  I don't know if you believe in God, but I do, and I look to Him for help for sure.

At first we're still all goo-goo-gaah-gaah over them with those gooey sentimental feelings about how much we "love" them, and we usually also feel guilty and like we failed them because we think we're so screwed up and insufficient to be loved.  As that dies down, the sense of indignation over how we've been treated (and how our kids have been treated, if kids are involved) raises up.  It can get pretty intense and turn into bitterness where we just perseverate over them and burn them in our minds with mini blow-torches.  We want to know how to stop them, how to answer everything that comes out of their mouths, how to NEVER let them "beat us" ever again.  We read all about it and find more and more validation for our wounds and our anger (which is good to a point), and we high-five with others about how monstrous they are as we see how common our stories are.  But eventually, it makes us sick.  We start to choke on all of that bitterness and it starts to consume our thoughts and fills us with tension and actual physical symptoms.  And eventually, we come to the point where we get sick of that and really want to move on, like for real.  Let them go, let the anger go -never forget what they are- but really we begin to truly want peace and a new life for ourselves more than we want lack of peace for them.  And we realize that this peace comes when we let them go and wish peace for them, too... . sending them off into their new life with a good wish and a farewell.  The truth never dies.  That dead-bolted door never goes away.  That low-level anger and resistance toward them I'm sure never dies.  But we can find peace as we finally get to the point where we let them, and their games, go.

[woodsposse]

tausk,

I disagree I think the disorder itself and the behaviors of the disorder are their tools for dealing with their shame.  They are very powerfull tools for dealing with shame. Unfortunately this shame is projected onto others.  We identify with this shame, or else why would we stick around?  We have our own trauma that causes us shame at our core.  Now our own inner shame has been brought to the surface.  What are the origins of our shame?  Ive been investigating this and it is in my FOO.  WHere are the origins of their shame? Within their own FOO.  It has been passed down through generations.  Archaic wounds. Shame.

Every advertisement on TV I see, shame.  It is everywhere.  Why do we *need* to buy a bunch of usless crap? To hide from our inner shame.  It is the foundation of an entire system of controls.

I hope to challange you to think about this a bit different.  You use words like "inner shame".  You say we identify with the shame or why else would we stick around.  You say we have our own trauma which cause us shame.  Shame, shame, shame. 

It isn't shame.  It's hurt.

Nowhere in my core is there hidden shame.  I am a functioning being who actively sought out who and what I am -  we, as "nons" can do this because we are not afraid to see who and what we are.  If there is a "problem" - we want to fix it in us.  we want to become whole.  There is no shame in this.

Regardless of what may have happened in our FOO... . what a r/s with a pwPD can do is open old wounds (whether you knew they were there are not).  This isn't shame... . it's just an awakening.

Why do we buy a bunch of useless crap?  Not to hide from some inner shame... . that's for sure.  Personally, I don't buy anything useless.  Nor do I buy crap.  The phenomenon which you are referring to is called "Marketing'".  Plain and simple - don't get the two mixed up.

It isn't a system of control.  No one or nothing controls you but you.  As I have said before and will say again - your happiness starts and ends with you. The sooner you come to that understanding, the sooner you can really start on a path of wellness.

Yes, the disorder is a monster.  I do feel "sorry" for anyone who may suffer with any personality disorder.  I feel sorry I allowed those disordered people in and around my life for so long that I thought it was normal.  Yes media and movies and TV and music make PD sound romantic.  But it isn't.

But it isn't something that can suck you in - once you know what it is.  Yes, it may have done a number on you in the past... . but now you know what it is - and tomorrow will be so much different than yesterday.

No person, movie, music, book, tv show can make you see different once your eyes are open to what it really is and to what is really going on.   

Fear, obligation, guilt... . THAT is a foundation of control.

Let it go.

[woodsposse]

It's hard to accept it for all of us.  But its a matter of life and death.  We either continue to choose to face reality and let go of the "ooey gooey" fantasy-based feelings that still put them on a pedestal and paint them in this goddess-like light, or we stay stuck on them for the rest of our lives.  But I understand.  Part of what gets you stuck is getting to the place where you REALLY believe that there's nothing you could have done.  So long as there is a sliver of doubt, you keep running back to obsessing about what could have been.

But here's another way of looking at it.  My ex wife was somewhat correct about many of her complaints about me.  However, she ignored the fact that she a) fed into those problems with her abuse, and b) focused on those things as a way to get the eyes off of herself and have me focused entirely on fixing myself in order to be good enough for her.  Their whole thing is about getting us to feel like we are responsible and to get us to focus on them and their needs all the time.  But it is still never enough.  You can't fill a black hole.

Is it wrong if I don't feel ready to forgive her?

Nope.  Not in the least bit. 

Everything is a process... . not a switch.

Heck, you don't ever HAVE to forgive her or anyone.  That is well within your right... . and more power to you if that is what you need. I'd be behind you 100%.   

[Tausk]

tausk,

I disagree I think the disorder itself and the behaviors of the disorder are their tools for dealing with their shame.  They are very powerfull tools for dealing with shame. Unfortunately this shame is projected onto others.  We identify with this shame, or else why would we stick around?  We have our own trauma that causes us shame at our core.  Now our own inner shame has been brought to the surface.  What are the origins of our shame?  Ive been investigating this and it is in my FOO.  WHere are the origins of their shame? Within their own FOO.  It has been passed down through generations.  Archaic wounds. Shame.

Every advertisement on TV I see, shame.  It is everywhere.  Why do we *need* to buy a bunch of usless crap? To hide from our inner shame.  It is the foundation of an entire system of controls.

For me I've learned the basic steps to process my shame:

1: Feel the shame for my action(s).

2: Take responsibility

3. Feel Remorse/Guilt

4. Make amends

5. Process guilt and hope to not repeat action.

6. Forgive myself

7. Let go of shame.

My ex was stuck at step 2.  So the only mechanism was to deal with shame was to project it.  But projection of shame doesn't really process it.  It just creates a hole within ourselves to shove it deeper down. Think about whether in the long run you ever really felt better after denying a transgression or having an unwarranted tantrum rather than take responsibility.   We still feel the shame, but just shove it down deeper.  

Shame is how we feel about ourselved.  Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.  My exwBPD never learned to make it to Step 2 to move forward...

Is it wrong if I don't feel ready to forgive her?

No.  We forgive when we are ready and able.  And we  don't forgive them for their benefit.  We do it for ourselves if we are able.  For them, it's irrelevant. They don't feel guilt, so forgiveness is beyond their capacity to process.  And furthermore, how  and why would we forgive someone who takes no responsibility for their transgression?  

For me, to forgive too soon is toxic for me and denies the hurt, pain, and abuse I suffered.  

So in order for forgiveness to be beneficial to myself:   I'm prepared to forgive only after a long period of self validation, self analysis, and self responsibility.  And the benefit of forgiveness only comes after I am clear in my mind, which of my ex's actions actually need to be forgiven.

But not until I am ready. Not until the anger has been processed through me.  And not until I have forgiven myself.  

I forgive others because it helps me.  It allows me to let go.  It allows me to no longer be a victim and it empowers me to live free from the Disorder.  

And should we forgive?  If a traumatized three year child skins her knee and screams that she hates you, do you have a difficult time forgiving her?  Or would you rather keep the anger and resentment from the three year old's inappropriate projection of anger, fear, pain, and shame?

Forgiveness?  Yes maybe?  But not until we understand. Not until we are ready.  

And certainly not until we understand enough to determine what actions of our own need to be forgiven by ourselves and silently asking forgiveness from our exes wBPD.

[AwakenedOne]

It seems to me that if we feel too sorry for our ex's we are trapped in a love link with them and it will be impossible to detach from that link. I can't remember one story here on the leaving board of a member saying that their exBPD partner feels any sorrow in return for them. My ex doesn't care if I am alive or dead. Most of the stories I read here sound like those members partners with BPD enjoyed the cheating, lying, manipulating... . etc. Yeah, they have a high to even possibly extreme tendency to act out in these ways. I understand that. A lot if not most of our pwBPD refuse to get help though. They chose instead to step on our bodies on the way out the front door. They had sex with the mailman. Were supposed to feel sorry that they climaxed with the mailman? I just think its important to not romanticize this disorder.

[strong9]

It seems to me that if we feel too sorry for our ex's we are trapped in a love link with them and it will be impossible to detach from that link. I can't remember one story here on the leaving board of a member saying that their exBPD partner feels any sorrow in return for them. My ex doesn't care if I am alive or dead. Most of the stories I read here sound like those members partners with BPD enjoyed the cheating, lying, manipulating... . etc. Yeah, they have a high to even possibly extreme tendency to act out in these ways. I understand that. A lot if not most of our pwBPD refuse to get help though. They chose instead to step on our bodies on the way out the front door. They had sex with the mailman. Were supposed to feel sorry that they climaxed with the mailman? I just think its important to not romanticize this disorder.

Bingo. Part of me feels more empowered to not feel sorry for her I will stand my ground and make sure there are repercussions for her actions. Not for her but for me. While her actions aren't a crime, they are morally reprehensible and actions she would hate her own daughter to do. Not sure how or why I give her a free pass on that.

[Alex86]

All this talk about feeling sorry for the ex and their disorder is all warm and fuzzy and the like... . but lets be real.

They are not insane and know exactly what they are doing. You can feel sorry all you like and have empathy and such... . but to say they can't help it like they have cancer or something does a disservice to you and tour well being.

They chose instead to step on our bodies on the way out the front door. They had sex with the mailman. Were supposed to feel sorry that they climaxed with the mailman? I just think its important to not romanticize this disorder.

We don't suppose to feel sorry but we, nonBPDs, have empathy right? Is it really a choice? Do they have the ability to control their feelings and therefore their actions? If a person with cancer blamed you one day for all his/her illness what would you think?

When my ex was in therapy she told me that she was afraid to continue because she would lost her inner child. I.e.:

she would be able to think like an adult.

All they think about is fear and shame.

It seems to me that if we feel too sorry for our ex's we are trapped in a love link with them and it will be impossible to detach from that link.

Yes I feel that way too. The easy way would be if there was a strong excuse/justification in order to detach. But maybe even then it wouldn't be enough.

[StillAlive]

It seems to me that if we feel too sorry for our ex's we are trapped in a love link with them and it will be impossible to detach from that link. I can't remember one story here on the leaving board of a member saying that their exBPD partner feels any sorrow in return for them. My ex doesn't care if I am alive or dead. Most of the stories I read here sound like those members partners with BPD enjoyed the cheating, lying, manipulating... . etc. Yeah, they have a high to even possibly extreme tendency to act out in these ways. I understand that. A lot if not most of our pwBPD refuse to get help though. They chose instead to step on our bodies on the way out the front door. They had sex with the mailman. Were supposed to feel sorry that they climaxed with the mailman? I just think its important to not romanticize this disorder.

Bingo. Part of me feels more empowered to not feel sorry for her I will stand my ground and make sure there are repercussions for her actions. Not for her but for me. While her actions aren't a crime, they are morally reprehensible and actions she would hate her own daughter to do. Not sure how or why I give her a free pass on that.

This line of thought has been tremendously helpful for me in establishing healthy boundaries. New repercussions for myself and not another person.

[enlighten me]

Personally sorrow for them is part of my healing process.

the hurt, self pity, anger, sorrow and then indifference.

All these feelings in whatever order they come will eventually lead to indifference. The problem is you have to go through them all first.

If any one of those feelings hasn't been dealt with then they will eventually come up.

Please believe me on this. I went through it with my ex wife. She dumped me when I was in Afghanistan by email. I got home and she recycled me then dumped me again on my return to Afghanistan. I was a mess. I lost over 3 stone. Couldn't eat, sleep or do my job properly. I got home and into a drawn out messy divorce. I am now happily indifferent to her. The only time I get worked up is about my children with her but any normal couple would have this. Im so indifferent to her that Im not bothered in the slightest about her impending wedding. She is part of my past and will remain there.

[mywifecrazy]

It means that I move on.  Accept the Disorder for what it is.  And look at my issues.  Find compassion for myself.  Find forgiveness for myself... . and for my ex, pity ,compassion and one day if I can... . forgiveness for her.

I find the times I do the best, at least for me with where I'm at, is where I genuinely wish her well and support her as the mom of my kids, as dysfunctional as she is. 

Just curious OOE. How do you do this? I'm not questioning you on your thoughts! It's just that I'm in the same boat and the only real pain I have anymore is when my uBPDxw hurts my sons. And she does it often in her disordered ways. She constantly hurts them by making them feel unloved or unwanted as she always puts her new r/s ahead of her own kids. I CAN'T support that even if she is disordered! As a matter of fact I REJECT IT!  Don't get me wrong I don't reject it by confrontation or name calling or anything that would hurt or confuse our kids. I reject it with NC (LC email only), I refuse to Baby her and parent her on being a parent. They don't like some of her actions that hurt them and I let them known that it is bad behavior on her part. I let them know ALL THE TIME that I love them and will never leave them. If it makes Mom look bad... .Tough $hit!  I'm am not going to play the BPD Woe is Me game anymore . That's what had me in the FOG.

Again don't get me wrong. Not disagreeing with you at heart about forgiving and moving on. Just curious how you handle it when BPD mom is STILL acting like a spoiled child and hurting your kids?

Peace... .mwc

[enlighten me]

Again don't get me wrong. Not disagreeing with you at heart about forgiving and moving on. Just curious how you handle it when BPD mom is STILL acting like a spoiled child and hurting your kids?

Peace... .mwc

This is the tough bit. My boys live with my ex wife and they are both complaining about her behaviour. Not violent but treating them like servants, always blaming them that sort of stuff.

They are confused by her behaviour. I don't say anything about their mum that's derogatory no matter how much I might want to. I also make sure that I meet all their needs when theyre with me. I listen to them, provide for them, help them with their homework. I show them what a loving stable relationship looks like. Both my boys are now of an age where they can decide who they want to live with. My eldest s12 has said he wants to live with me and if he comes then his brother s11 will also want to. I am not in a position to look after them full time at the moment as I work away a lot but have spoken to my family who are willing to cover the time Im away. I have also discussed this with my eldest and the ex wife as she says she cant handle him.

[strong9]

Again don't get me wrong. Not disagreeing with you at heart about forgiving and moving on. Just curious how you handle it when BPD mom is STILL acting like a spoiled child and hurting your kids?

Peace... .mwc

This is the tough bit. My boys live with my ex wife and they are both complaining about her behaviour. Not violent but treating them like servants, always blaming them that sort of stuff.

They are confused by her behaviour. I don't say anything about their mum that's derogatory no matter how much I might want to. I also make sure that I meet all their needs when theyre with me. I listen to them, provide for them, help them with their homework. I show them what a loving stable relationship looks like. Both my boys are now of an age where they can decide who they want to live with. My eldest s12 has said he wants to live with me and if he comes then his brother s11 will also want to. I am not in a position to look after them full time at the moment as I work away a lot but have spoken to my family who are willing to cover the time Im away. I have also discussed this with my eldest and the ex wife as she says she cant handle him.

I read mine the polite riot act. For example, mine has been awol for the last 3 months in another part of the world supposedly studying for a US college entrance exam while the kids and I live in the US and have set up house for her close by (figure that one out). Her excuse to our daughter was she, the 35 year old woman, was not being a mom to her 11 year old because she needed to be by her mom. She failed to see the hurtful irony in that but my 11 year old did. So I sent her a terse email telling her to stop messaging my daughter and to stop justifying her absence because it only made things worse and to give my 11 year old space. And when my daughter says she doesn't want to Skype with mom I damn well make sure my ex knows it. I don't pull punches but I don't name call either. She told me to get rid of her house and car and I am doing so even though her family is up in arms. She asked for it (literally) so I don't baby her. I Fi d take great them at their word sometimes and being blunt puts them in their place. Of course, mine doesn't claim to want a divorce and always talks of figuring out where we end up a year from now while she plays around so I know she won't push back. She also knows she has created a bad history with the kids so aside from dramatic, righteous claims of God being just to her motherly sacrifices, she no longer has moral authority (or the kids for that matter).