very very confused

[willy45]

I am very confused. Just got off phone with ex. I'm pretty sure she is still crazy but we had a great talk. I told her about having PTSD and how much the walking on eggshells really hurt. She said she understood. Still blamed me for the rage because I didn't integrate her into my family or commit to her. But, she did take some responsibility for her behavior. I think.

We agreed to chat once every few weeks and try to rebuild trust. I asked her if she was still seeing the guy she was with and she said she was 'unincomberred' but never really answered. She knows I'm with someone else and that doesn't seem to bother her. I asked her what she wanted and she told me she wants to be friends like she is with her other close friends. Call every couple of weeks, email, etc... .

I told her how the contact hurt me. She says it doesn't affect her at all. The only thing that hurts is when I tell her we can't talk anymore.

Ug. This is hard. I guess I do still love her. And I'm guessing she does still love me.

But what to do now? My head says stay away. My heart says the other. Plus, I feel really guilty for having this conversation with her because I'm with someone else and really like her a lot. I don't want to loose her over this. And I don't really want to go back to my ex. I mean, a part of me does, but the rational part knows she is trouble and troubled. So confused.

[maternal]

I'm sorry to say it, but you'll lose the one you're with if you don't let go of, get away from your ex.

Trust actions, not words.  So far, what you have from her is a bunch of words.  They mean nothing without action to back them up.

[willy45]

Yeah. Its true on both accounts. Thanks. I will loose my girlfriend. And I don't want that. And words are not actions. But how do I test actions? Seems as if I do that, I loose my current girlfriend.

[willy45]

Ug. Also, she wants to put the old relationship behind us. Agreed. So do I. But what she wants doesn't make any sense to me. I mean really. She wants to talk every couple of weeks and hang out when we can? We live in different cities. And I'm so tired of having to think about this all the time. I want to focus on my life.

[1989]

Same thing happened to me, he wanted to stay in touch, talk at least once a week ( at first) and begged me not to say goodbye (I'm married and told him that was too frequent.). Anyway, two months after telling me he wanted me in his life forever he decided he was going to ask his new g/f of 8 months to marry him because he could see himself being happy with her for the rest of his life.  A month later I called because I knew I had been discarded again and I asked him "What do you want?" and he said "I want us to say goodbye because I'm going to marry her and have a family with her.  It's my turn to have a beautiful life."


She is the third person he has chosen over me in 22 years (I know, stupid me.). This happened three years ago, and just to make a point that they don't change (and I still care enough to look) he is alive and well on a dating website as I type this.  

Willy, this isn't love.  She wants you in her life until she finds a replacement then she wants you out of her life because you're in the way.

[myself]

But how do I test actions?

They've already been tested. They got you where you are right now.

She's told you she's not going to change. That she is who she is.

That your feelings don't really matter.

what she wants doesn't make any sense to me

I want to focus on my life.

What you want doesn't make sense to her, either.

The realities are very different. Good luck merging them.

FOG makes it much harder to focus. Time to choose? What's best for you?

The confusion is from not letting go.

From being practically done, but still involved.

[BorisAcusio]

But what to do now? My head says stay away. My heart says the other. Plus, I feel really guilty for having this conversation with her because I'm with someone else and really like her a lot. I don't want to loose her over this. And I don't really want to go back to my ex. I mean, a part of me does, but the rational part knows she is trouble and troubled. So confused.

Nurturing an ex while you're in a relationship sounds a bit dishonest. Like you don't want to lose your safety net but deep down, wishing to pursue something more rewarding.

Ug. This is hard. I guess I do still love her. And I'm guessing she does still love me.

After spending nearly two years on the board. You still think she loves you? Well, there lies your problem.

[Tausk]

I am very confused. Just got off phone with ex. I'm pretty sure she is still crazy but we had a great talk. I told her about having PTSD and how much the walking on eggshells really hurt. She said she understood. Still blamed me for the rage because I didn't integrate her into my family or commit to her. But, she did take some responsibility for her behavior. I think.

We agreed to chat once every few weeks and try to rebuild trust. I asked her if she was still seeing the guy she was with and she said she was 'unincomberred' but never really answered. She knows I'm with someone else and that doesn't seem to bother her. I asked her what she wanted and she told me she wants to be friends like she is with her other close friends. Call every couple of weeks, email, etc... .

I told her how the contact hurt me. She says it doesn't affect her at all. The only thing that hurts is when I tell her we can't talk anymore.

Ug. This is hard. I guess I do still love her. And I'm guessing she does still love me.

But what to do now? My head says stay away. My heart says the other. Plus, I feel really guilty for having this conversation with her because I'm with someone else and really like her a lot. I don't want to loose her over this. And I don't really want to go back to my ex. I mean, a part of me does, but the rational part knows she is trouble and troubled. So confused.

The person you are seeing know about this? Does she know your feelings?  Have you been honest?  Is this cheating.  My exwBPD did this type of crap throughout and never took responsibility.  She always wanted backups.  I wouldn't accept that so we are done.  So both of you have back ups now.

If i'm going to interact with the Disorder, I'm going to try and limit the damage to me.  Bringing in innocent outsiders and deceiving them and hurting them and wasting their life, time and emotions is a... .for a lack of better word... .cowardly sin.

My only requirement of myself and others is to try and communicate honestly.  I'm seeing someone, but I've expressed that I'm not ready for something serious.  I've been very honest about where I'm at and my emotions.   I have clear boundaries.

I have dignity in my relationships today.

[Caredverymuch]

Ug. Also, she wants to put the old relationship behind us. Agreed. So do I. But what she wants doesn't make any sense to me. I mean really. She wants to talk every couple of weeks and hang out when we can? We live in different cities. And I'm so tired of having to think about this all the time. I want to focus on my life.

Willy, take your own advice and focus on YOUR life. Your ex lives in a different city, has already set the tone in re-contact that you should isolate yourself from someone you really like to be fully available ( to her) ... ."to hang out, when and if we can?"  Ug is right.

[willy45]

Yup. Fair enough. Thanks for that post Tausk. You are right. It isn't OK. And my GF deserves more. And you are right. A part of all this is having my ex as a backup, if I'm going to be honest about it. And the crazy thing is she is a TERRIBLE back up. I just feel guilty now because I did end up talking to her.

The craziest thing and this is the kind of manipulations that are making me sick... .

I emailed my ex last night saying we needed to talk. I wanted to understand why she was constantly calling me (idiot me... .as if she is actually going to tell me... .). She emailed back and said 'sure' as long as I wasn't going to 'break her heart again'. Then she emailed back to clarify that she meant 'break her heart and tell her to not contact me'.

Ug. And that is why I WAS calling her back. To understand why she was calling me and to try to explain to her why it was upsetting to me. I told her I had PTSD from our relationship and that her calling me was a trigger for all my PTSD symptoms that I had spent a long time getting over.

But Tausk, you are so right. This isn't cool. At all. My current GF is truly a lovely person and it isn't fair at all to her. I really didn't intend for all this drama and I've been working really hard to distance and get away.

Here is my issue. She contacts me over and over and over again. I eventually cave. And then I get sucked back into the 'love' feelings again, of wanting her, of wanting to be with her. And then all the FOG sets in again. She tells me how miserable she is and how lonely and isolated she is. And I want to save her. I know all this. This is going to happen over and over again. I can't stop it.

So, the best strategy is to change my phone number. That is #1. If I can't resist the call and talking to her trying to explain how the calls damage me, I have to remove the option of a call. Email, I can just delete.

So many weird things were said on the phone. I kept asking her why she was calling me. She said that she can't imagine a world in which she has such limited time and knowing that there is someone out there who is so connected to her walking the earth at the same time and not being in contact with them. What the heck. I'm such a friggin' sucker.

[willy45]

ACK>> >> >>   I really, really hate this.

One thing that really gets me is that she said that contact with me 'doesn't affect her at all'. The thing that affects her is when I tell her to stop contacting me. What the heck? I get all caught up in knots and feel ___ty and smoke a million cigarettes if she even emails me and I delete it. And if we talk, I'm a total and complete mess. And for her, it doesn't affect her at all. This doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[willy45]

And blarg. Sorry for venting here. You guys have been awesome to me.

I've been on these boards for 2 YEARS. This is just idiotic. I totally get that. Trying not to be too hard on myself for being so stupid. But, this is craziness. I don't get anything from this relationship. Nothing. I don't get any validation. I don't get any comfort. I get no sleep. I can't eat. I smoke like a fish (I'm assuming fish smoke but have never actually seen it). I get super pessimistic about life. She drags me down. She is drowning. And she is dragging me down to be with her. This makes no sense. I really don't get any benefits whatsoever. So, why do I feel like I 'love her'. It's so annoying.

[willy45]

Also... .Sorry for this... .just trying to not contact her again to ask this question... .

When I asked what her boyfriend thought of her contact me like this all the time, she told me she was 'unencumbered'. What does that mean? I mean, I  know the definition. But, what does she mean. Last time we spoke a few months ago, she told me she was in a relationship and wouldn't ever considering getting back together with me (not that I asked... .). Now, when I ask her how her boyfriend feels about her calling me all the time, she tells me she is 'unencumbered by such constraints'. I kept asking and I kept getting that response. Obviously she seemed annoyed that I was asking. Seemed pertinent though. If I am even going to try to attempt to have any kind of contact, I want to know that this effort isn't going to be quashed by her boyfriend, and vice versa. I told her I would have to discuss this why my GF. I know that she would freak out.

This whole thing just doesn't make any sense and it is freaking me out. I literally feel like I'm trying to communicate with a crazy person from another planet.

[AwakenedOne]

And I want to save her.

Save yourself Willy.

The phrase "The disorder always wins" is spoken a lot at this site. The disorder won Willy. You can stay and invite the disorder back into your life though if you choose to suffer.

Probably the most important thing I ever learned at this site is that BPD love isn't love it is NEED. Therefore you are an object being used for her need. That's why she doesn't care what your needs and concerns are and refuses to grant NC and move on.

I don't think doing the endless changing your number and ignoring her cycle is the solution in your case at this point. Is the time now to be strong and respectful but exercise your rights?

My advice is carefully & casually write a letter of closure to her and post it here first before you send it, so others can help give advice to edit it. A letter thanking her and wishing her well and saying your going on with your life and you feel that is best for you to do and that you hope she understands. When she emails you back NO. Ignore her. It isn't a negotiable letter which she can refuse your rights.  

[willy45]

Thanks AwakenedOne,

That's good advice. Unfortunately, I did that a few months ago. It was nicely written, thanking her for her offer of friendship, and that I didn't want to be in contact. I ignored her for four months. And I got roped back in. I think what I need to do is stop all mechanisms for her to contact me. I think that is the only thing I can do at this point. I clearly don't have the will power to ignore. I get worn down. And I get back to being stuck. The problem here is with me and not being able to just ignore.

[patientandclear]

She said that she can't imagine a world in which she has such limited time and knowing that there is someone out there who is so connected to her walking the earth at the same time and not being in contact with them. What the heck. I'm such a friggin' sucker.

See, this kind of thing can drive you crazy. If she feels that way -- that's not when you split up or let the r/s die!

That would be so hard for me to resist. I completely get why you are finding it hard to draw a line here.

[patientandclear]

ACK>> >> >>   I really, really hate this.

One thing that really gets me is that she said that contact with me 'doesn't affect her at all'. The thing that affects her is when I tell her to stop contacting me. What the heck? I get all caught up in knots and feel ___ty and smoke a million cigarettes if she even emails me and I delete it. And if we talk, I'm a total and complete mess. And for her, it doesn't affect her at all. This doesn't make any sense to me at all.

When you talk, YOU aren't getting what you really want so it turns you inside out.

When you talk, SHE is in her optimal situation: she has you, knows you're there, but doesn't have to survive the challenges of greater intimacy. It's the perfect relationship for someone with BPD. She isn't troubled because this is the exact distance that makes her feel most comfortable.

[willy45]

OK. More insights... .Her boyfriend moved back to England. She lives in the States. 'Unencumbered' means single. And that makes me the fallback. I get it now.

What I find hard is hearing what she says but KNOWING what's going on probably much better than she does. I need to stay away.

And she told me details. Poor dude. Had some kind of accident and have to have surgery which bummed him and made her 'very unhappy'. I suspect I know how that played out. She in the role of caretaker. Him house bound after surgery. Yikes. I can only imagine.

[BorisAcusio]

OK. More insights... .Her boyfriend moved back to England. She lives in the States. 'Unencumbered' means single. And that makes me the fallback. I get it now.

What I find hard is hearing what she says but KNOWING what's going on probably much better than she does. I need to stay away.

And she told me details. Poor dude. Had some kind of accident and have to have surgery which bummed him and made her 'very unhappy'. I suspect I know how that played out. She in the role of caretaker. Him house bound after surgery. Yikes. I can only imagine.

I would be rather taken care by Amy Gilligan.

[willy45]

And yes PatientandClear,

You are totally correct. I'm not getting what I want at all. I don't want to be her 'best friend' and get sucked into her drama. I don't even want to talk to her. The sick thing is that when I talk to her, I yearn to be with her. And this actually makes me feel sick. The thought of it makes me want to puke. I don't want to be exposed to any more pain.

She is totally down and miserable. I'm sure part of this guy leaving the country must be to get away from her. I would imagine. Who knows. But I'm pretty sure if all was great, he would have stayed. It was his choice to leave. Not forced by work. So, that is telling.

Anyhow, I don't even want to know all this sh#t. I would think that knowing she hasn't changed and is the same miserable person I left would help me detach. Just makes me sick to my stomach. I don't want any part of this and very concerned I'm getting sucked back in.

[patientandclear]

Also note that the timing is that she needs you so much after the new ex bf has left the country. That should make your warning bells to off. You are special and important ... .Especially when she has a sudden void in her primary relationship role. That is the very dynamic that made me feel really yucky about the way my post-r/s "friendship" played out with my ex. It started to feel like I was being used.

[myself]

You can't save her, and won't save yourself by trying.

Really take some steps back. Set a goal and stick with it.

Cut this connection before it strangles you completely.

It's like you're her emotional fire extinguisher.

Already emptied but she's still squeezing the trigger.

She needs to learn to not be so careless with her flames.

We get sucked in because we go along with it.

We're looking to get something out of it.

We're avoiding something else.

[willy45]

Yes. Agreed. Thank you so much. I think this is what is making me the most ill. The warning bells are ringing at 5 alarm power. I don't understand why I haven't learned to trust my instinct instead of the words she says. Its like breathing in noxious fumes and I can't take my mouth off the exhaust pipe. The weird thing is, is that I am an incredibly intuitive person. Super high emotional IQ. I know exactly what's going on. Her new ex left the country. Ran away. She is freaking out. Pulling out all the stops and manipulations to get me back in her life in an important way. I likely could have her back. I would have to move down to the States and persue her. It would likely work. And then all the abuse would come back. Devaluing me constantly. I would be her caretaker and any perceived misstep would be used against me. I would be destroyed.

The crazy part is I don't even like her. She is truly unstable with no sense of self.

[willy45]

Poor British dude being bed ridden and not being able to meet my ex's emotional needs. Yikes. British dude, if you are on these boards lurking around, I understand your pain!  Kidding... .

[Blimblam]

wily,

It is an addiction plain and simple. We go through life seeking something.  pwBPD somehow are able to inspire in us that missing piece that we had been seeking all along.  All that and we are also her knight in shining armour, a god, and a porn star. It is a high that no class A drug can compare to. They do there best to get us to go all in and put all our eggs in one basket. Then the trauma bonding and abuse somehow bond us even deeper.  After the discard we are left a strung out mess wanting just one more hit.

She is the sweetest poison you will ever taste, but poison nonetheless.

[willy45]

Yes. Agreed. It is an addiction and one I don't even like. I need to do some more work to focus on who she really is... .Abusive, manipulative, extremely needy, controlling. She is drowning once again and I am her lifejacket.

What void is she filling for me? I don't know... .Sex, for sure. Deep emotional connection? Not sure. I think more than anything, I am programmed by her to fold. To just lay down and fold and not stand up for myself. I am proud of myself though the last time we spoke. I told her that her rage episodes left me with PTSD and I stuck to my guns that this was true and that I would never go back to that under any circumstances. In the past, I would have tried to appease her. But I don't care anymore what she thinks of me in that regard. I told her even though it was hard for me.

What is the void? I think it is just programmed. And the sex. I had the best sex of my life with her. That is the biggest thing.

[1989]

Willy,

It was the sex for me as well.  Unlike anything I had ever experienced before and after.  Just unbelievably awesome!  I think it was because he thought I was simply amazing so I had absolutely no fear of letting go, and it was as though we were made for each other in that sense.  I'm not going to lie, I still miss it, and I think one of the main reasons I didn't want to let go is because I had hoped to get that back someday.

My conclusion:  yes, it was the best sex of my life, but it came at a very high price, too high.  Sex with my husband is nothing like it was with my BPDex, not even on the same scale; but it's pleasant, and it doesn't come with the craziness and pain that my ex brought.  I look at it as a trade in that I gave up some physical things for much better emotional things.  And when I weigh it out like that, then sex is WAY better with my husband.  

[LettingGo14]

I think more than anything, I am programmed by her to fold.

Willy -- we have spent alot of time together on these boards.  And we both want to heal.  And we both want to be free. 

I say this because we are in this together:   none of us are "programmed" by another person.   We might concede in the face of pressure from someone else... .we might not enforce boundaries... .we might let our unconscious minds overwhelm our cognitive thinking... .but we are not programmed.

The only way to detach is for each of us to own responsibility for self.  In the end, it's not what happens to us, it's how we relate to it.

Your friend,

LG14

[willy45]

Yeah. Totally agree.

I didn't mean that I was programmed with no recourse. Just noticing how my mind works when I talk to her. It's like I am totally terrified of telling her exactly what's on my mind and what's going on, for fear of offending her or having her blow up. It's actually quite hilarious if you think about. Why would I be afraid of saying exactly what's on my mind if I don't really want her in my life? That's what I mean about the programming. I'm not like this around anyone else. I'm pretty clear and set good boundaries and I'm good about discussing them with people. I run my own business so that is pretty key to any success. I'm good at awkward conversations and sticking to my guns. But with her, I think the 7 years of constantly just repressing my feelings and my hurt and her rage if I ever tried to explain to her how I felt, I am just programmed to 'walk on eggshells' around her. It's weird how easily I fall back into that programming. I can fight though. And I did the last time I spoke to her. Told her very clearly that her behaviour led to my having PTSD and I stuck to that. Told her I didn't care if she tried to deny it, that is what happened and I had to seek help for it. So, at least that's a step in the right direction.

I had another weird realization too. If she keeps coming back over and over and over again and it doesn't matter what I say to her, what's the point of censoring? It's not like I should be afraid she will go away. The only way she will go away is if I make it impossible for her to reach me.

I'm praying to the lords right now that she gets a job in Africa or something. That would be awesome.