Bochner's comments on recovery

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

The borderline individual's chance at recovery from their desolate and chaotic state, unfortunately, only occurs in extraordinary circumstances. Recovery requires frequent contact with a person who can simultaneously demonstrate, with unwavering certainty, that they care very deeply for the borderline and that they will not tolerate interference with their own boundaries. Such a person must possess supreme confidence in their own personality. They must be able to manage every kind of attack or manipulation with kindness and understanding, and yet never give in. Giving in to the borderline's merger fantasy, or accepting their withdrawal, rage, or blame, results in the borderline believing they are in control. True recognition of the borderline's independence cannot thus occur and the borderline can never achieve a feeling that they are truly independent. In the end, only the recognition of their true self, given from a truly independent yet loving other, can permit the borderline to build within themselves the confidence they need to truly be independent. In the end, only the recognition that no one has control in relationships, and that everyone must control themselves, a recognition that is made possible only by becoming truly independent, can save the borderline from never-ending sorrow within relationships, and can finally make the borderline feel whole by themselves and capable of living full and integrated lives within relationships and among others.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

This is very intersting so basically a borderline needs emotional superman to swoop down and withstand all attacks while not budging an inch in regards to them and still validating theyre emotions. All this while constantly putting your foot down and resetting boundaries over amd over and over again. While also not needing any form of companionship or validation yourself. While also becoming a parent to a grown adult. No thanks. Ill take my chances with someone normal who wants to see me flourish and vice versa.

Mod Note; This thread is a split from

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=232905.0

[AG]

The borderline individual's chance at recovery from their desolate and chaotic state, unfortunately, only occurs in extraordinary circumstances. Recovery requires frequent contact with a person who can simultaneously demonstrate, with unwavering certainty, that they care very deeply for the borderline and that they will not tolerate interference with their own boundaries. Such a person must possess supreme confidence in their own personality. They must be able to manage every kind of attack or manipulation with kindness and understanding, and yet never give in. Giving in to the borderline's merger fantasy, or accepting their withdrawal, rage, or blame, results in the borderline believing they are in control. True recognition of the borderline's independence cannot thus occur and the borderline can never achieve a feeling that they are truly independent. In the end, only the recognition of their true self, given from a truly independent yet loving other, can permit the borderline to build within themselves the confidence they need to truly be independent. In the end, only the recognition that no one has control in relationships, and that everyone must control themselves, a recognition that is made possible only by becoming truly independent, can save the borderline from never-ending sorrow within relationships, and can finally make the borderline feel whole by themselves and capable of living full and integrated lives within relationships and among others.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

This is very intersting so basically a borderline needs emotional superman to swoop down and withstand all attacks while not budging an inch in regards to them and still validating theyre emotions. All this while constantly putting your foot down and resetting boundaries over amd over and over again. While also not needing any form of companionship or validation yourself. While also becoming a parent to a grown adult. No thanks. Ill take my chances with someone normal who wants to see me flourish and vice versa.

Mod Note; This thread is a split from

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=232905.0

[AG]

Bingo this is the nail on the head for me. Noone is a robot and everyone has a weak point. Healthy partners do not keep scanning for that weak point and then attack it over and over. Healthy partners might see a weak point but they are not going to attack it until the other one buckles. With this article it is blatently still a one way feed into the BPD. That is not friendship and that is not a relationship. Codependant non codendant tomatoes tomato whatever you want to call it. It is still a one way feed into the BPD. No energy or very minimal energy is placed back to the healthy partner. Friendships and relationships are two lights sustaining themselves and at the same time feeding each other essentially becoming stronger lights. Not one light that can deflect and withstand while feeding another light source that cannot sustain itself.

[AG]

When I look back I can trace back constant boundary placement on my end and not budging. However this article does not mention the exhaustion from doing this for extended periods of time. I think it lasted longer for me because of those boundaries but all it did was feed the chase on her end. The chase to find ways to break through those boundaries. There is no doubt in my mind I came into that relationship whole. As time passes a steel door will start to concave with a battering ram constantly being ramed at it. I will agree with you on this article explaining very well on the manipulative behavior of a BPD and the benefits of holding your ground with them. We are not steel doors and even if we were there will always be a weak point codependant or not.

[freedom33]

I think 'frequent contact with a confident person' refers probably more to a therapist and not us nons. Even therapists are asked not to take more than 1-2 borderlines in their practice a week (a friend's therapist told him) as they may 'catch fleas' i.e. basically get crazy themselves by being lost in the BPD maze. It is also recommended for therapists to get weekly supervision when treating BPD. My therapist said to me that he didn't have a borderline patient in his practice yet and thank god for that. Apparently they can be really tough work even for therapists, let alone us untrained individuals being with a BPD for long periods of time. Actually one of the ways that helped me towards the end of the rs was to take a break for a few days from her when I felt that I and my boundaries were getting weaker or I was about to get pulled into merging/cuckoo/fantasy land. I found that limiting exposure, goes a long way with a BPD.

[AG]

Yes YES and more Yes... .Youve got it exactly on point dead center this article is literally his documentation for keys to treatment on a therapist end. They are the only ones who should and are equipped to deal with this nonsense. Funny you say that about your therapist because I chose my therapist for her hollistic approach and also because she has experience working with Borderlines. Currently she refuses to work with them hmmmmm I wonder why. At the end of the day no non should feel guilty or ashamed for not being able to handle abusive behavior without batting an eye. Its called abuse for a reason and stating any reference to being equipped to deal with abuse in a relationship is absurd. We all do need self improvement but we do not ever and I mean ever need to be equipped to handle abuse or manipulative behavior unless we have no choice meaning family or children being in the mix

[freedom33]

When I was on the undecided board earlier this year I read someone's post asking for advice on what to do. A guy from the staying board came back and said... .I can understand myself trying to work on my situation as I have kids and joint assets with my wife but you don't have children together, you are not married, no assets to divide - why do you want to do this to yourself? my advice is leave and don't look back... .or something along those lines... .

This was an eye opener for me.

[AG]

We all do need self improvement but we do not ever and I mean ever need to be equipped to handle abuse or manipulative behavior unless we have no choice meaning family or children being in the mix

When I was on the undecided board earlier this year I read someone's post asking for advice on what to do. A guy from the staying board came back and said... .I can understand myself trying to work on my situation as I have kids and joint assets with my wife but you don't have children together, you are not married, no assets to divide - why do you want to do this to yourself? my advice is leave and don't look back... .or something along those lines... .

This was an eye opener for me.

Bro you are preaching to the choir. AJ mahajari suggests the same exact thing. She says and I quote "Borderline love is toxic Love". She said that with emphasis in her voice and circled toxic love on a black board then if im not mistaken took the chalk one extra time and clapped it against the board like a hard dot. Also have you ever read stop walking on egg shells? That book is literally like the holy grail for dealing with borderlines for non's. It literally suddelly sugests that if you are not family or bound by kids to just get your hat and leave them. It also siddely suggests that uf you do stay with them that you need help yourself like professional help because you are sick yourself aka codependant. What is not so suddel in the book is it outright states that no matter what if you do decide to stay that you would have to have your self esteem monitored by a professional on a consistant basis. Im so glad you posted this article because it just confirms the staying away factor even more. This article shows purposeful manipulation. It also shows purposeful vengence. It shows that even a professional who has went to school for years has to be so damn well grounded that even they have to approach with extreme caution. I see comments above of people feeling bad about not beong able to withstand someone constantly attacking while giving back scraps of care in theyre direction. Dont feel bad about that or even think for a second that you are not adequate enough because of that. It is quite the opposite unfortunately they are not adequate for us or anyone else while in that state. The main thing to reflect on would be what makes us so different that we stayed to help someone who thinks of others in this way. Why did we stay for so long. Ect Ect Ect. The answer is not always codependence either.

[Witchway]

When I look back it seems that the more I held fast with my boundaries the more extreme the fight for control and manipulation of myself by the pwBPD became. I'd even, on occasions (dark moments), blame myself for my abuse - questioning myself was I too harsh with my boundaries? Such is the power of the manipulation. It definitely looks like I was being punished in some way for having and keeping some boundaries. How can a relationship like that be sustained in any way, shape or form? It really can't.

[Harri]

I think there really needs to be a disclaimer put in at the end of the article regarding the last paragraph, at least for the people on this site who are reading it looking for answers or help in dealing with an SO, parent or even an ex.  As Freedom33 and AG pointed out, that last paragraph is probably *not* referring to a NON being able to do all that. That paragraph perfectly describes the qualities needed by the therapist who deals with BPD patients.  At least I hope it is not referring to a Non in that role.  IMHO, that role with a BPD is simply not sustainable 24/7.  I think some may get the wrong idea here or may feel like they somehow failed by not being able to do this.

Recovery requires frequent contact with a person who can simultaneously demonstrate, with unwavering certainty, that they care very deeply for the borderline and that they will not tolerate interference with their own boundaries. Such a person must possess supreme confidence in their own personality. They must be able to manage every kind of attack or manipulation with kindness and understanding, and yet never give in. Giving in to the borderline's merger fantasy, or accepting their withdrawal, rage, or blame, results in the borderline believing they are in control. True recognition of the borderline's independence cannot thus occur and the borderline can never achieve a feeling that they are truly independent. In the end, only the recognition of their true self, given from a truly independent yet loving other, can permit the borderline to build within themselves the confidence they need to truly be independent. In the end, only the recognition that no one has control in relationships, and that everyone must control themselves, a recognition that is made possible only by becoming truly independent, can save the borderline from never-ending sorrow within relationships, and can finally make the borderline feel whole by themselves and capable of living full and integrated lives within relationships and among others.

[freedom33]

I believe so too that it is likely referring to a therapist - Skip has asked clarification from the author on this point. Regardless of what the author's intentions are I think we can all agree that it is very difficult even for qualified professionals to treat borderline people. Sometimes within one hour in the therapeutic session they can push the buttons of the therapist. You can imagine how challenging it is for someone seeing them for longer periods of time or even being married to them i.e. 24/7. Here is something I read about this topic i.e. of us nons trying to take the role of the therapist and saviour below. It is an excerpt from a longer article you can find on-line

Borderline Personality Disorder: Profile and Process of Therapy

by Paul J. Hannig, Ph.D., MFCC, CCMHC, NCC

Many disordered personalities show a splitting and projection of the good-parent/bad-parent introjects. When a client becomes aversive to being touched by a spouse, we can assume that an old abuse is being reactivated, creating a withdrawal of libido from sexual activity with the once-valued partner. The mate may get seduced into helping fix her spouse's serious problems out of unrealistic altruistic reasons. This is common to many psychological disorders. When someone has a serious personality disturbance, expecting an unqualified, untrained spouse to try to fix or correct the person's long standing illness will have disastrous results. This is especially true because emotional involvement with a disturbed person should not include quasi roles of the pseudo-patient and healing-spouse partner. Relationships and marriages do not heal personality, mood, or anxiety disorders. The clinically disturbed person should seek out a professionally trained therapist and not project the need to be cured onto a partner. When transferences erupt into full bloom in these kinds of pseudo-relationships, the consequences are quite unpleasant.

Any spouse, lover, or partner who tries to be a therapist in order to satisfy the other person's therapeutic need is asking for failure. You cannot be a spouse and a therapist at the same time when the other person is seriously impaired. The disordered person may narcissistically want to save face by not openly sharing and discussing the problem. He will avoid going to see a trained therapist. Remember, disturbed people have difficulty forming strong, stable emotional bonds; and this deficiency leads to resistance and avoidance of assuming the appropriate task of forming the therapeutic alliance.

[Skip]

Bringing this back to the center line... .

In his article, Bochner offered a reasonably plausible explanation for some commonly "unexplainable" or as sometimes referred to by members, "crazy" behaviors that some of us experienced.  If we explore his explanation for what our partner may have been doing/experiencing and we overlay what we were doing/experiencing, we may see start to see the dynamic of what was going on. We can start to see the push and pull we engaged in.  We can also start to see where:

~ things that were happening that we could not have understood,

~ things that were happening that we should have seen / obvious

~ how we acted in ways that helped

~ how we acted in ways that made matters worse

~ and where we were unhealthy in the relationship.

This is important to healing.  This is what is stated in Stage 2 of Detachment Leads to Freedom (in the right margin of the board):

Breakdown the loss (the situation) to understand it in a clear and balanced way - your part, your partner's part; what is normal relationship "stuff", what was abnormal; what was malicious, what was weakness, or what was ignorance. It's very important to detach from your emotions for this and look at things in a analytical way (use your inner witness). The best location for these discussions is [L3] Leaving: Detaching from the Wounds of a failed BPD Relationship. There are excellent reference articles and workshops discussions located in suggested reading.

Breakdown your feelings - try to unmask them. Our anger may really be fear. Feelings of disrespect may really be a fragile ego. Start by probing the feelings and the thoughts that drive the desire or grief or hopelessness in your consciousness, perhaps naming it to yourself (e... g., fear, weakness, disappointment, false hope, etc), and gradually come to understand who you are, who you have been. Explore the energy in the feelings. As you go deeper into this energy, its knotty, sticky quality will start to dissolve—for the time being. The best location for these discussions is [L5] Taking Personal Inventory. In addition to discussin with members, there is a clinical depression test, a personality test, and a style test which may prove helpful.

As you work through this process be patient. BPD is a very complex disorder to understand as the thought process is very different than our own. Self analysis is also a very complex process as we have are encombered by our own self image and feelings. Remind yourself that you do have resources to help (bpdfamily, your clinician, your clergy), recall helpful teachings in your life, or pray for help and guidance.

So why such a strong reaction and effort to discredit or minimize and redirect his last paragraph?  Why is why he says so threatening to us and seemingly far more important than anything else in that article.

Does Harri get to the heart of it when she says I think some may get the wrong idea here or may feel like they somehow failed by not being able to do this.?

And I'll ask the obvious follow on question for each of us to ask of ourselves (not ask the group) - if we fear discovering a balanced understanding of what happened, isn't that the root of denial?

And taking that one step further - don't the experts tells us, for everything from codependency to substance abuse to schizophrenia, that denial is the bane of healing, the reason why people get stuck and don't go forward?

This may or may not be valid for you - but is it worth contemplating periodically as we heal.  Where do you, personally (we all are in different places), come out today?

[freedom33]

Let me make a start on this. An underlying belief for me (or my personal myth) is that I am a failure if I can't make a/the relationship work. I kind of assumed that it is my responsibility. I am a fixer, hardwired since very young. The problem solver and fixer. And if I can't fix 'the problem' after so much effort then it gives me some solace the fact that no one cans. If I have one major problem is exactly that, that my purpose in this world is to 'fix problems'. Do I exist without this myth? I do but the world is not as excitingly familiar as my hardwiring requires from me from a young age.

Now other guys that were with my xgf before me may have just not been bothered about her stuff too much, having a bit of fun with her and walking away afterwards when thing started getting a bit sour. Such people do not have the assumption/compulsion that they can/want to fix the other. They take what is offered and when it is not offered anymore they walk away. They dont's ask themselves everytime they are failing 'what if I tried this now?' surely this will work... .Recipe for disaster. Such people see relationship problems as RISKS while I unconsciously see them as OPPORTUNITIES. That's why normality with a woman fails to capture my imagination.

Other people may have stayed longer with her than I have (I stayed for almost a year) but perhaps without being so passionately involved and determined to fix things as I was (only to make things worse with my attitude) or perhaps staying and enduring even more pain that I have. It doesnt matter at the end of the day. All these are speculations of mine at best and fantasies at worse. They don't do me or my healing any good. The fact of the matter is that I am here not for her but for me and my healing.

I think my inability to give myself the option that it is ok to walk, it's ok to say no deal, that it's ok to admit that I can't fix this, to give up, to lose is what pains me and leave me stuck in an either/or win/lose scenario here.  And when I hear some authority supporting that it's not you it's her and that that's how things are with 'these' people, I have to admit it provides me with some kind of solace and relief and helps to normalise my feelings and take away some of the core shame of not e.g. being able to fix her perhaps resembling relationship patterns with my early caretakers.

You see there's a superman fixer myth that I am living in. This is where I get my kicks, my supply from and now by seeing that this superman might be someone else but not me it causes my ego to split since it is so identified with with this role. To hell with this role. I don't want to live this myth anymore.

[Skip]

Thanks Skip - Let me make a start on this. An underlying belief for me (or my personal myth) is that I am a failure if I can't make a/the relationship work. I kind of assumed that it is my responsibility. I am a fixer, hardwired since very young. The problem solver and fixer. And if I can't fix 'the problem' after so much effort then it gives me some solace the fact that no one cans. If I have one major problem is exactly that, that my purpose in this world is to 'fix problems'. Do I exist without this myth? I do but the world is not as excitingly familiar as my hardwiring requires from me from a young age.

Now other guys that were with my xgf before me may have just not been bothered about her stuff too much, having a bit of fun with her and walking away afterwards when thing started getting a bit sour. Such people do not have the assumption/compulsion that they can/want to fix the other. They take what is offered and when it is not offered anymore they walk away. They dont's ask themselves everytime they are failing 'what if I tried this now?' surely this will work... .Recipe for disaster. Such people see relationship problems as RISKS while I unconsciously see them as OPPORTUNITIES. That's why normality with a woman fails to capture my imagination.

Other people may have stayed longer with her than I have (I stayed for almost a year) but perhaps without being so passionately involved and determined to fix things as I was (only to make things worse with my attitude) or perhaps staying and enduring even more pain that I have. It doesnt matter at the end of the day. All these are speculations of mine at best and fantasies at worse. They don't do me or my healing any good. The fact of the matter is that I am here not for her but for me and my healing.

I think my inability to give myself the option that it is ok to walk, it's ok to say no deal, that it's ok to admit that I can't fix this, to give up, to lose is what pains me and leave me stuck in an either/or win/lose scenario here.  And when I hear some authority supporting that it's not you it's her and that that's how things are with 'these' people, I have to admit it provides me with some kind of solace and relief and helps to normalise my feelings and take away some of the core shame of not e.g. being able to fix her perhaps resembling relationship patterns with my early caretakers.

You see there's a superman fixer myth that I am living in. This is where I get my kicks, my supply from and now by seeing that this superman might be someone else but not me it causes my ego to split since it is so identified with with this role. To hell with this role. I don't want to live this myth anymore.

Great honesty and openness.  I commend you for that.

We talk a lot about dysfunctional coping here on the boards when we speak of pwBPD traits.  Any members are both frustrated and amazed that their partner doesn't see it in themselves.  Self-awareness is hard for a pwBPD traits, and frankly for everyone to different degrees.

Do you see any unhealthy coping on your part in any of this?

[willtimeheal]

I found a major problem was my exBPDgf could run to her family when she couldn't bend boundaries with me. She knew I hated this more than anything. So she would run to the safety of her dysfunctional family who were just as messed up as her. So no matter how I keep those boundaries or pushed  for independence for her there was a place she could escape to and this  people were more than happy to feed her need.

[Witchway]

For me it was the fear -fear of what he is capable of. With regards always managing the attack with kindness and understanding but never giving in - I think I managed half and half in this respect... .if I'm honest. Looking back I did have strong boundaries, but maybe on occasions I could have implemented them with a bit more undrstanding. He always upped the ante when I wouldn't budge on the boundaries though, which led to more extreme behaviour that I just could not take. I don't know if that is my problem though? From my perspective I see BPD as extreme or certainly capable of becomming extreme and therefore may be biased in this way and therefore sruggle with this. I will say though that the last incident with myself and the pwBPD I cannot get past thinking he does not deserve kindness and understanding for that.  Which is why I am NC and will avoid any further contact with him at all costs. I saw the true person and I believed him.     

[freedom33]

Of course. It is a form of denial. It does help momentarily to reduce the tension the cognitive dissonance so to speak. But at its core it is an abandonment of my own vulnerability and needs. So far, it has always been easier to fix someone else - to assume the responsibility. I was probably doing the fixing to some extent in all my relationships up until I met the one that cannot be fixed no matter how hard I tried, a rubic cube for problem-focused: coping mechanisms and now I have to to face my own facts.  

[hergestridge]

The bleak (but realistic) picture of what it "treatment" is and what can be expected from it painted in the article is noteworthy. It sort of makes you question wether you really had the chance to be anything but "unhealthy" in your rs with a pwBPD.

[Skip]

if I'm honest. Looking back I did have strong boundaries, but maybe on occasions I could have implemented them with a bit more understanding. He always upped the ante when I wouldn't budge on the boundaries though, which led to more extreme behaviour that I just could not take.

It's a really good lesson to take home.  What is the difference between "values and healthy boundaries" and "stubbornness and conflict cycling"?  I think you point it out and its a good lesson to take forward.

My "boundaries" were like yours and they got the same reaction - from everyone.

"Values and healthy boundaries" should be about kindness, cooperation, communication. Learning this lesson has helped me in future relationships.  

It's not that we fix anyone with boundaries or that anyone should be bound to follow our rules.  We only manage 50% of the relationship.

It's that in a relationship we need to be independent and giving and be able to be that without banging heads.

Bochner points out that when we engage a pwBPD (or ADHD, NPD, OCD and a host of others for that matter) this independence will be challenged a lot.  And it goes without saying that if we are at all "dependent", will we be inclined to solve things with the wrong tool - one that makes matters worse. We need to be constantly mindful of it.

As for our partners, many of whom are not severely borderline, some will be positively affected by it and others will rebel against it.  We have to make that read and the call of when its not going to work.

They take what is offered and when it is not offered anymore they walk away. They dont's ask themselves everytime they are failing 'what if I tried this now?' surely this will work... .

This is a really good point.

I like the authors point. To be healthy we have to be able to know when the normal chaos moves into the abnormal column. In the instant replays I've read here over the years, this is where a lot of us struggled - to know when it went to far and let go.

Turbulent beginnings are nothing new or unusual in budding relationships. When people are trying to meet that special someone, they often have all their feelings on the line. That level of vulnerability can bring out both the best and the worst in people. Emotions run hot in these circumstances. We want to impress, but we don't want to seem desperate. We want to be attractive, but not too sexy. Many people start to look for future potential long before they even know the other person. Intense or poignant desires and fantasy about the future can lead to tension, conflict and exaggerated behaviors. (normal)

However, in some relationships the intensity and the duration of the turbulence goes far beyond the norm.(abnormal)  What then?

[myself]

We only manage 50% of the relationship.

We have to make that read and that call of when its not going to work.

this is where a lot of us struggled - to know when it went to far and let go.

That's definitely where some of the frustration grew, holding up our end of the r/s (and then some) and expecting our partners to do the same. Expectations due to their proclamations and promises, yes, plus hope and love, but hanging on when we knew their actions didn't match their words was ultimately on us. Staying too long may have given them the impression that they were right/we were wrong, that they weren't really so out of control after all. That they didn't need to change but we did. Which is true, the part about us, isn't it?

[Skip]

Expectations due to their proclamations and promises, yes, plus hope and love, but hanging on when we knew their actions didn't match their words was ultimately on us. Staying too long may have given them the impression that they were right/we were wrong, that they weren't really so out of control after all. That they didn't need to change but we did. Which is true, the part about us, isn't it?

The author suggests this for sure.  It makes sense to me.  

[Witchway]

if I'm honest. Looking back I did have strong boundaries, but maybe on occasions I could have implemented them with a bit more understanding. He always upped the ante when I wouldn't budge on the boundaries though, which led to more extreme behaviour that I just could not take.

It's a really good lesson to take home.  What is the difference between "values and healthy boundaries" and "stubbornness and conflict cycling"?  I think you point it out and its a good lesson to take forward.

My "boundaries" were like yours and they got the same reaction - from everyone.

"Values and healthy boundaries" should be about kindness, cooperation, communication. Learning this lesson has helped me in future relationships.  

It's not that we fix anyone with boundaries or that anyone should be bound to follow our rules.  We only manage 50% of the relationship.

It's that in a relationship we need to be independent and giving and be able to be that without banging heads.

Bochner points out that when we engage a pwBPD (or ADHD, NPD, OCD and a host of others for that matter) this independence will be challenged a lot.  And it goes without saying that if we are at all "dependent", will we be inclined to solve things with the wrong tool - one that makes matters worse. We need to be constantly mindful of it.

As for our partners, many of whom are not severely borderline, some will be positively affected by it and others will rebel against it.  We have to make that read and the call of when its not going to work.

They take what is offered and when it is not offered anymore they walk away. They dont's ask themselves everytime they are failing 'what if I tried this now?' surely this will work... .

This is a really good point.

I like the authors point. To be healthy we have to be able to know when the normal chaos moves into the abnormal column. In the instant replays I've read here over the years, this is where a lot of us struggled - to know when it went to far and let go.

Turbulent beginnings are nothing new or unusual in budding relationships. When people are trying to meet that special someone, they often have all their feelings on the line. That level of vulnerability can bring out both the best and the worst in people. Emotions run hot in these circumstances. We want to impress, but we don't want to seem desperate. We want to be attractive, but not too sexy. Many people start to look for future potential long before they even know the other person. Intense or poignant desires and fantasy about the future can lead to tension, conflict and exaggerated behaviors. (normal)

However, in some relationships the intensity and the duration of the turbulence goes far beyond the norm.(abnormal)  What then?

Lightbulb moment... .   

He would say that I was stubborn. And yes stubborn isn't good... .Which means my lack of being able to communicate my needs and feelings in a healthy way just produced the situation whereby he felt invalidated for his needs and feelings (I can see it now on a few occassions). Which just escalated the unhealthy behaviour by both of us.

When my boundaries were/are being threatened I'd say on 50% of occasions I become rigid - no argument, no discussion, it is how it is ! In this respect, sometimes my boundaries were/are less than friendly. So yes my ex would feel threatened by me and therefore triggered, and the toxic cycle repeats.

Thanks for that Skip.

Definitely need to look at that aspect of myself more closely. 

[Witchway]

And the more I think about it the more I realise quite a few people have called me stubborn. In the past I've looked at it as being strong - not something that is unhealthy.

[hergestridge]

The author suggests this for sure.  It makes sense to me. 

But isn't a long term relationship with a pwBPD per defintion unhealthy then?

In my case the push/pull behavior pattern made me think I my strategies to "fix" were (at least temporarily) succesful. What I convinced myself was progess what in fact this destructive circle the author describes.

The day I stopped trying to "fix" and started to treat her like a normal person the ___ really hit the fan and things went downhill for real.

[Skip]

But isn't a long term relationship with a pwBPD per definition unhealthy then?

Well, I wouldn't put "looking for BPD" in my Match.com profile - or substance abuse, or depression, or ADD... . 

I think the point is that we all end up here after we are in the relationship with a difficult partner and are now trying to make life decisions.  And many of us (not all) are dealing with partners with mild manifestations.  29% of the population has some diagnosable mental condition and some of us (not all) are in the 29%, too.

The line is often blurry.

But yes, a relationship with pwBPD is going to be unstable.

What I convinced myself was progess what in fact this destructive circle the author describes

I think many of us fueled the cycle unknowingly. Probably equally unknown by our partner.  It helps to see it spelled out.

[Blimblam]

The way I see it is things happened the way they did. Neither my ex or myself chose how we were raised what we were exposed too. The dysfunction each of us brought to the table was a product of the inherent dysfunction ignorance and corruption that exists in the world. My unwavering hope for my ex was a reflection of my hope that these same forces in the world and myself could be remedied. My compassion has been put To the ultimate test. What I ultimately sacrificed was my ego.  My false self. Many people would never put their ego on the line.  Would simply write of the pwBPD as nuts and walk away.  Many probably wouldn't even get emotionally involved In the first place seeing them as a notch on the bed post.

All the great mystics sages poets throughout the ages spoke of transcending or sacrificing the ego.  The great suffering they endured in the process. How it led them to wholeness, god, becomining awakened etc.  perhaps what is "unhealthy" for the ego is good for the soul and it is exactly this type of sacrifice made selflessly that leads to the true self; the soul.