sibling rivalry when a parent has BPD

[caughtnreleased]

I am posting on this thread although its not directly about my uBPD mother but more about the dynamics between my sister and I as a result of my uBPD mother... .My sister and I have never been close, and I think we have alternated between being the golden child or the black sheep, and I think I've taken on the latter role much more often than the former.  Despite MY being the black sheep, I would say that my sister is quite insecure, and many times has sought to imitate me, and compete with me (I can think of so many things as a child that I took up and that my OLDER sister subsequently took up).  Also, my niece was sleeping in my childhood bedroom and there was a picture of me with short hair that she really loved, and guess what... .my sister went and got the same haircut I have in the picture  ... .maybe this is not weird? Everyone subsequently told my sister she looks exactly like me with that haircut... .I felt a little bit like the girl in the movie single white female.  But maybe I'm overreacting ?

What I would like to know is that the way I experience the sibling rivalry with my sister is that she is the one trying to compete, imitate and one-up me.   I don't like it at all.  For the most part I ignore it, and I try to stay on my own path and not let it affect me, although it does. I don't like to be imitated and I feel that it means she can't really be a true sister... .if she is just insecure and competing with me, can she actually be supportive when I'm down?  She admits to feeling satisfaction when she reads about people's unhappiness on social networks.

The other thing is that I am now experiencing close friends who are doing something similar with me... .competing, imitating and trying to one-up me.  As a result they aren't able to be good friends to me... .I recently broke up with someone I was seeing and instead of my friend being supportive, she kinda rubbed in my face that she had started seeing a really nice man (even though I know he's a BPD type so it's all a lie... ) and she told me I had to leave her house so she could call and talk to him.  That's the last time I go to her for some sympathy.  The fact is, I'm having trouble finding friends who are able to be supportive because they seem to be too busy competing... .I feel I am playing into this dynamic somehow, but I really don't know how... .Does anyone have similar experiences and perhaps some solutions given that this dynamic is being replicated elsewhere in my life?  Can ANYONE relate?  do I sound crazzy? Sometimes I feel like I am  

caught

[trees]

You don't sound crazy at all, at least not to me. Out of curiosity, did your mom compare you too when you were younger? Or drive a wedge between you? Or use the divide and conquer approach?

I hope these aren't too personal questions-- I only ask because I used to be really ashamed about how my sibling and I used to fight all the time when we were kids and how we were super competitive with each other. And then I realized one day that a lot of that was because that was the dynamic that my mom created. To this day, she tries to manipulate us and drive a wedge between us; the only difference is that it doesn't work anymore because we now know what she is doing. She also used to split us and treat us both as good and bad at different times.

When I was the "bad" one, she would tell me how my sibling was so much better than me and vice versa. Most of this was done in solitary so I never realized that she was doing the identical thing to my sibling. My sibling was equally ignorant; we both suffered in silence & each thought we were getting the brunt of her rage and the other one was getting of easy.

I caught my mom in a lie about something that my sibling supposedly said about me when I was going through a terrible time (I was in cancer treatment). I finally realized that many of the things/thoughts that I had attributed to my sibling were really lies my mom had told me.  I reached out to my sibling, and we finally had an open and honest talk for the first time about our childhood, our feelings and our mom's abusive behavior. We also apologized to each other and forgave each other for things that we actually did do to each other.

We also cleared the air about all the nasty things that our mom has said we had said about each other through the years and realized they were all lies. It was painful and hard to dredge it up but amazingly freeing.

It's really been the best thing that has helped me on the path toward healing because I went from having an ok relationship with my sibling to one that's amazing, warm and loving. I finally have something that's like a normal and positive family relationship with a blood relative.

[caughtnreleased]

Wow! What a fantastic story. Thank you so much for sharing it It's really nice to hear that siblings can overcome this, and that a lot of good and healing can come from such difficult experiences. 

Yes my mother used to always praise my sister to me and tell me I should be more like her.  I remember she once told me that she didn't like my friends, and I should find friends that were more like my sisters.  And I know she did it, and STILL does it to my sister. One very recent example, I decided to use an alternative to shampoo recently, and my mother made a horrible disgusted face about it when I told her... .well, a week later my sister tells me she's doing the same thing. Why? My mother was ranting and raving to her about how I was trying this new thing with my hair... .

So my sister is aware of it, but not enough to really be AWARE of it (or understand how it affects her)

I have told my sister that I suspect my mother has BPD, and she has started to connect the dots, but my sister is still completely enmeshed with my mother... .so it's like she'll have moments of lucidity, but then she just gets pulled back into the BPD black hole.  So yes, we have managed to get a bit closer more recently, but she is still quite competitive, and continues to mimic/imitate certain things I do... .perhaps she is simply not aware that she is doing it... .

[Harri]

Hi Caught.  I can relate.  I hate competition and one-up-man-ship (is that one word ... .I have no idea!)  Before I get into experiencing that though, I wanted to comment about your sister.  If she was mostly split white and was primarily the golden child, then it makes sense that she would be imitating you, even though she is the older sister.  She would be more insecure as well.  A lot of times GCs do not know how to function on their own.  They have always looked to mom/dad for direction or have always done what the parent wanted them to do.  The scapegoat is essentially forced to figure things out on their own, to be self reliant and to break new ground.  So it makes sense to me that she would look to you as a leader and want to be more like you.  It is like a role reversal with you being the big sister with the annoying kid sister tagging along and basically being a pain in the butt.  So see if that fits for you and if it does, maybe you can change your perspective enough that her imitation no longer bothers you to the point it is bothering you now.  (I hope that made sense.  I am having a hard time finding words tonight)  I don't think you are overreacting at all.  That kind of stuff is annoying and hurtful.  I have not had that problem with my brother but I have with co-workers and other friends.  It definitely puts limits on how far I allow myself to share and trust them.  I used to cut them out of my life, but have more recently just worked on accepting that there are different levels of friendship.

I don't like to be imitated and I feel that it means she can't really be a true sister... .if she is just insecure and competing with me, can she actually be supportive when I'm down?

Unfortunately, I don't think people like her can be truly supportive without thinking about how whatever event or problem you are experiencing is impacting them.  They can't separate and will either overreact because it is something they can relate to or they will minimize because it is not something they can relate to or they feel threatened in some way.  The part about your sister saying she feels satisfaction to hear of other peoples unhappiness stems, I think, from her insecurity.  The same thing goes for friends.  

I have no solutions for making this not bother you.  It hurts to know the people you care about and who 'should' care about you are unable to detach enough to see you as an individual and separate you from their own insecurities.  I have tried a couple of times telling people that I feel like they haven't ever seen me except through their own filters, but as you can imagine, it usually did not go over well.  You might try saying something like I did but use different words (I have a knack for pissing people off sometimes  ).  :)o NOT say "Oh lordie, here you go making this be all about you again!" while rolling your eyes. That definitely does not work!     Other than that, all you can do is accept that they are who they are and either lower your expectations or drop them.  I have a hard time with this... .knowing there are shades to everything is hard when you are used to black and white.

Oh!  I just thought of something.  I can be a rescuer sometimes... .I like to offer solutions that I see... .but sometimes I used to really over do it.  I have gotten better at not fixing, but still need work on it.  One of my friends (a truly kind and wonderful person) will say to me "Now Harri, I need you to be a good *listener* on this one"... .I have known her for years and she can say that to me.  I get the message when she says that!  Hahaha  I feel a bit embarrassed but I also feel like she loves me even when I am a bit exasperating and annoying too.  Maybe saying something like that to your sister might work?

[caughtnreleased]

I have no solutions for making this not bother you.  It hurts to know the people you care about and who 'should' care about you are unable to detach enough to see you as an individual and separate you from their own insecurities.  I have tried a couple of times telling people that I feel like they haven't ever seen me except through their own filters, but as you can imagine, it usually did not go over well.  You might try saying something like I did but use different words (I have a knack for pissing people off sometimes  ).  :)o NOT say "Oh lordie, here you go making this be all about you again!" while rolling your eyes. That definitely does not work!     Other than that, all you can do is accept that they are who they are and either lower your expectations or drop them.  I have a hard time with this... .knowing there are shades to everything is hard when you are used to black and white.

Thank you Harri! That is really helpful and a lot of your points really hit home.  Yes, my sister has frequently been the golden child... .or maybe just the one who wasn't AS bullied and villified as me.  I still don't see her as having had it easy either though, which is why I don't think I was envious of her (consciously at least).  Your description really describes quite a few of my friendships.  I just couldn't understand how none of them were able to simply be supportive when I needed them, and either completely overreacted, or completely dismissed what I was feeling.  I hadn't quite connected the dots that they in fact were not sufficiently detached to see me for me! But that makes a lot of sense, especially with the one friend I am thinking of. WOW!

BUT... .this brings me to my next question.  I look around, and I am having a lot of trouble finding people who ARE detached from me, and able to be supportive friends.  Do they exist? Do they exist for people like us? Is it largely a function of the kind of people we are friends with, or the kind of attachments we are prone to (I guess the question is does a person's attachment style depend on the other person they are with?).  I want real, supportive friendships, and right now I look at some of my "closest" friends and... .I'm coming up pretty empty! 

[trees]

Caughtnreleased--  I feel pretty lucky that we have been able to heal our relationship. Goodness know that our mom tried her best to keep us fighting and apart -- I think it fit with her need to control everything about us.

I'm sorry your sister is still enmeshed; it's harder to have open communication when that happens because then the BPD parent can still wreak havoc in the relationship between siblings.

But if it gives you hope, the reconciliation between my sibling and I was a process. It was terrifying when we started,  and I was scared that my sibling would "report back" to my mom what I was saying but I realized that was just a fear that was unjustified. And it didn't happen overnight but over a series of months.

I started the process by promising to lay bare my soul and to tell my sibling the truth about absolutely anything and I owned up to any unpleasant thought I ever had about my sibling ever while we talked. Telling the truth was really essential to our process because of all the lies and deceptions we had faced through the years. (I think it was even more important than the promise to forgive, the act of forgiveness and not getting defensive about anything that came out during our truth-telling.) But what was important to us might not be important to you and your sister.

Are you seeing a therapist? If you are, maybe your therapist could help you come up with a plan? 

[Harri]

Caught, those are really good questions and I am in the same boat you are.  I do not know the answers.  For me, I feel so dysfunctional still that I am not sure I will attract healthy people in my life.   Recently I met an older lady who seems to be nice and fun and accepting.  I have been struggling with getting together with her for coffee though.  One, I am in a bit of a slump right now but also, the first time I met her for coffee she basically told me everything about herself.  I know she is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict (25 years sober!) a lesbian who had a hard time coming out and accepting herself, she is an overeater (so am I) her brother was killed, she and her girlfriend broke up a few years back (together for 17 years) and she had a breakdown and was so depressed because of it she was on disability.  I have spent a two hours and 15 minutes and drank 4 cups of coffee during that time and I know all that already.  She knows nothing about me other than I drink a LOT of coffee.  It is setting off red flags all over the place... .but I know enough that it does not matter how much baggage she has and how many of those damn red flags are plastered all over her.  What matters is me and how I handle my own baggage and how I handle my own red flag behaviors. 

But it is going to be a long long time before I open up about anything with her.  The other thing that bothered me to no end is that the day after I met her and we exchanged phone numbers, email and facebook stuff, I got one phone call, two emails, and three messages via facebook in a 24 hour period.  ZWOW!  She is one of those!  ARgggh!  I was sitting in my chair holding on for dear life because every instinct I had told me to RUN!  I think I had smoke coming out of my ears.  I killed that off by telling her I do not check my email often and use a tablet when I am on facebook and it is hard for me to type, etc.  She got the message and now I get a very doable i phone call a week and one or two facebook messages.

So I am totally rambling here, but this is a prime example of what I struggle with.  Clingers who make me want to run.  thank God when she was telling me her history she made me laugh like hell.  If she had been a whining oh pity me my life sucks kind of person I would have suddenly started having stomach problems and walked out only to send her an email a day or two later to tell her I have a lot going on in my life and need a lot of alone time.    

The other people I tend to attract are those who seem to think they know it all.  I refer to them as the Super friends because they know it all and can't ever be wrong and by the way, they have things very bad in life so nothing I say can top their story.  I just ended a near 10 year friendship with a guy who is like that.  He would project, belittle, mock, play victim, etc.  I finally said no... .okay, I got pissed and used different words, but that is a whole different thread.  Perhaps another day. 

So I just do not know.  What I do know is that I can trust people to the extent that I can trust myself.  apparently right now, I am not feeling particularly trusting or even trustworthy.

So who here has friends?  Anyone? 

BTW trees:  that is a really beautiful story about how you and your sister worked things out.  I am so glad that you guys were able to do that. 

[caughtnreleased]

I would love to hear from others on building healthy friendships for those who come from sick families.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

UBPDM drove a wedge between my u BPDs (All-Good child) and me ( No-good child with a bad case of fleas).

The result?

Sis and I never learned how to work things out ourselves (mom always swooped in to rescue poor baby sis from horrid older sis -me).

Sister learned how evil I was from BPDm  and internalized it fully being the dutiful daughter she was.

so I left home, spread my wings, and flew away to build a beautiful life.

sis and mom share a home and a stultified  belief system that in a very tidy way  keeps them in their tormented reality.

So despite all the the pain, they couldn't keep me down, and that makes me happy.

[caughtnreleased]

Hi Sparrow... .thanks for your feedback.  Good for you for being able to leave and build your own life.   How did you overcome the challenges of relating to friends in ways that were different from the way your FOO might have ingrained in you? 

For me, I've left home and I'm building a new life, but I see some recurring patterns, and I guess the last thing I want to do is leave, only to rebuild exactly what I've worked so hard to get away from... .it really is tough, and mostly when times get tough I find it hard to find solid support anywhere... .amongst friends as well.  I don't want that anymore... .so looking for insight on how to build supportive  friendships (for a start).

Thanks!

[sparrowfarfrom home]

Dear caught,

It is a process that took years. If u click on my avatar in the thread you will be able to see My past posts on the process.

Friends are a most valuable part of learning how t have healthy relationships.

What I look for in a friend are he following... .

High moral standards and ethics That guide their lives daily.(no lying,stealing,gossiping about others)

Are not chaos ridden.

they like you for who you are, warts and all.

Are not jealous of friends you may make after  them.

you trust them to gently tell you where you may be stuck.

friendships take time, so be patient for that.

I also apply the rule of three's :

If a new friend disappoints you in a significant way (doesn't deliver on a promise, gets in conflict with you or someone else, displays selfishness etc.)

first time   I give the benefit of the doubt .

second  time    I apply caution but don't change anything at that point.

third time    I view it as a character issue to  be taken seriously and then at that point I adjust my view, put some distance, watch their behaviour socially, and more often than not they turn out to be people that would not be good for me to associate with, and I breathe a sigh of relief that I averted a disaster.

problem Is that people exist in little separate pods of activity nowadays. That is an obstacle  one has to find a way around.

[caughtnreleased]

Hi Sparrow,

Thank you very much for your feedback.  I now realize that at least two, maybe three, of my closest friends have some of these serious character flaws, and even less close friends as well.

The red flags have been there for years (I have known some of them now for 5 years), but I didn't see them for what they were.  I see so much of it now:

jealousy and competition (even stalking),

lack of support when I need it,

and one of them has the most chaotic life.   They are close friends on whom I depend to go out with, go to parties, have dinner parties... .etc.  I'm feeling rather insecure now that I look around and find that they are in fact, not exactly the best kind of friends for a person like me to have.  It's a bit tough for me as I come to this realization. 

Thank you so much for your help though... .I am obviously starting to recognize people for who they truly are, and that, without even knowing it, I have been replicating old patterns... .it's tough, because it makes me feel like a failure.  My friends were the one thing I thought would be what would help me to be "normal" and yet... .here I am, surrounded with friends with some truly strange character flaws (I am pretty sure one is totally histrionic, and the other has displayed weird competitive behavior and has displayed some stalking behavior as well).  I don't want to flush them... .they still bring certain things to my life, but I realize I need to keep them at a distance, because several times now, they have proven incapable of being there for me when I need them.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

Caught,

You are definitely not a failure. A failure is one who stays stuck  and does not wish to change and grow. You on the other hand are here on this forum to learn and go beyond your past, and are open to feedback.

That is a success  oriented person

As to making friends, don't forget to widen the circle of people with whom you could consider  as friends. The little old lady 3 doors down or the 13 year old girl 3 floors up, the hardworking single mom who runs  the local grocery, people with different interests and cultural backgrounds   than you may not want to 'hang out', go to dinner or parties with you, but may enjoy a cup of tea, and  sharing their history, their culture, their recipes, and their unique insights.

Friendships take work, like a garden. You plant a little seed, water it, enrich the soil, weed it.

Each little step of the way takes a little work... don't expect t friends never to disappoint. Be realistic. They are not perfect and neither  are you (or me or anyone)

PS personally I hate Facebook and after a very brief time on it, I realized what a drain it was on my time and energy. But your experience may be different.

I would rather have 5 good real friends than 100 virtual friends. But that is just me.

maybe this topic deserves it's own thread?

Hang in there

[caughtnreleased]

Hi sparrow! I con

[caughtnreleased]

... Completely agree about Facebook friends.  My friend in question who I say was stalking me completely ignores me on Facebook but has undertaken the following things which I am really disappointed by:

She showed up several times to watch me or even interrupt my socializing with new people at a class I was taking at a community centre she and I are both members of ; I confided in her about my BPD ex and she freaked out... .Not for what he did but for the confidences he made to me about his BPD and yelled at me to leave him, only to turn around a few weeks later and brag about dating a clinically depressed guy... And stalk my BPD ex at his workplace... .These are just a few things this person has done which I now look at and see are giant   .  Another one of my close friends seems to be really histrionic and mentioned casually that we should have a threesome with my BPD ex... .And yet another one can't stop bragging about how she's finally soo happy with her new boyfriend, and dishing out patronizing advice to everyone else because she's finally "made it" in life... .    this is my close circle of friends.  I agree perhaps we should start a new thread about building healthy friendships.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

Great idea.

New thread... .don't know how... .do you?

[sparrowfarfrom home]

Dear Caught,

Oops, of course I know how to start  a  thread... .brain blip.

I think you should have the honors since it was your very good idea