Relocation and custody. Off to war

[mrsthomps]

Hi, all.

My husband has received his offer letter to a new position that will pay better and allow me to stay at home with my children. My dBPDex is pitching a fit now and claiming he is going to get full custody of our son if I try to move.

My ex currently lives 2 hours away from us. We would be adding an extra hour onto that drive time. I've already offered to meet him halfway for every exchange and told him that he can even have a few extra days every month to make the drive worth it, on top of cutting his child support in half to account for the gas money. In the end, he is ending up with more than he has now but he is still adamant that even though he lives in a completely different city, he is not going to allow me to move because his other child is living in the same city that I am.

It's so frustrating to hear him tell me that he is going to take our son away from me and "contempt of court this" and "contempt of court that". Bahhh. I'm already tired of dealing with his antics.

I found out today that he is representing himself because his attorney dropped him.

My husband has already accepted this job and he is so excited to be moving up and to give me the chance to raise my kids without using my mom as a sitter. Hopefully our dreams won't be dashed!

Any advice as we head into this relocation hearing and battle yet again?

[ForeverDad]

You must consider any offers you made before resorting to court as withdrawn.  If he starts trying to "make a deal" later when he's finally desperate he will almost surely try to use those offers against you and guilt you into agreeing to them or as a starting point.  You response must be consistent, display no weakness - reasonableness will be perceived as weakness and encourage more demands - "Those offers were my attempts to work it out with you to avoid the time, expense and heightened conflict of family court.  It didn't work out and they were withdrawn.  Any prior offers that were refused and failed are not binding on me."

Parents move all the time, some even across the country.  Courts have ways to deal with it.  Be prepared for the lawyers to pressure you to settle.  Settlement may happen, however don't be guilted into a settlement that very well could be worse than what the court would order.

[livednlearned]

My ex currently lives 2 hours away from us. We would be adding an extra hour onto that drive time. I've already offered to meet him halfway for every exchange and told him that he can even have a few extra days every month to make the drive worth it, on top of cutting his child support in half to account for the gas money. In the end, he is ending up with more than he has now but he is still adamant that even though he lives in a completely different city, he is not going to allow me to move because his other child is living in the same city that I am.

[/quote]
Be careful that you don't start negotiating with yourself. That's a common mistake that people make when they're negotiating. Not just here, but everywhere. You think, "If I make the deal sweet enough, this person will agree." That's not how it works with skilled negotiators, and that's definitely now how it works with BPD.

You are asking the court for permission to relocate, not your ex. Let the court determine what is fair -- it will be better than anything your ex offers, and probably less than what you offer.

When my ex considered taking a job in another state, my lawyer did not make any firm offers and N/BPDx began negotiating with himself. He kept writing things to my lawyer, and she said that there was no point discussing it until he had a firm job offer and filed a petition to relocate. N/BPDx just kept offering more and more things, which was pointless, because we weren't considering any of the offers. He was just negotiating with the silence, interpreting it as us saying no when we weren't even engaged in the negotiation.

Also, there is a very good chance that your ex doesn't want custody, although in practical terms, that may not change the negative engagement in court. If your ex is going to represent himself, it's going to add up financially, especially if you hire a lawyer to defend yourself. Some judges are very lenient with pro se litigants, some are sticklers for details. Your ex, as a pro se litigant, has to learn a lot of technical and procedural side of family court. If his goal is to just make threats and rattle your cage, he probably won't make the effort to learn how things work. My ex is a former trial attorney  -- you would think a lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer. But no. N/BPDx has the training to figure out how the law works in family court, but didn't ever take the time. He just wanted to stir up a storm. I don't even think it bothered him that he lost the court battles, because he knew he was winning the financial war with me.

Set up a legal fund if your ex looks like he is actually going to put some effort into this. Hard to imagine anyone with BPD who will keep it up, but you never know. It's not easy for someone who is mentally fit, much less someone who equates feelings with facts.

And also, if he does represent himself, he won't have a filter. That's good for you. The judge will be able to see your ex more clearly than if he was hiding behind a lawyer.

[mrsthomps]

Also, there is a very good chance that your ex doesn't want custody, although in practical terms, that may not change the negative engagement in court. If your ex is going to represent himself, it's going to add up financially, especially if you hire a lawyer to defend yourself. Some judges are very lenient with pro se litigants, some are sticklers for details. Your ex, as a pro se litigant, has to learn a lot of technical and procedural side of family court. If his goal is to just make threats and rattle your cage, he probably won't make the effort to learn how things work. My ex is a former trial attorney  -- you would think a lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer. But no. N/BPDx has the training to figure out how the law works in family court, but didn't ever take the time. He just wanted to stir up a storm. I don't even think it bothered him that he lost the court battles, because he knew he was winning the financial war with me.

Set up a legal fund if your ex looks like he is actually going to put some effort into this. Hard to imagine anyone with BPD who will keep it up, but you never know. It's not easy for someone who is mentally fit, much less someone who equates feelings with facts.

I honestly do not think that he wants custody of our son. He has been on this path of vengeance since I refused to take him back after his ex wife declined to have anything to do with their marriage any longer. When I got remarried this past summer his behavior escalated very quickly. Unfortunately, he is very high functioning and is just smart enough to figure out what to say and how to say it. He has pissed off his attorney to the point that the law community in this area won't work with him.

I guess it just bothers me that he thinks I'm an unfit mother. I know that isn't the truth but we were supposed to be co parents in raising our son and I feel like I'm in a war that I can't ever win. It just won't ever stop.

If mediation doesn't work then I don't even know how court will go. He filed a contempt motion, which to be honest, I was in contempt. He kept having these crazy, irrational conversations with me over the phone and it scared me. So when I had an emergency and had to leave my son with a new daycare at the last minute, I didn't tell him immediately because I was afraid of what he would do. Of course he found out anyway and kidnapped our son from that daycare facility. He was arrested and put on a 24 hour hold.

Needless to say, he has a history of extreme behavior. I was reading on this forum a few weeks ago about a "pwBPD painting their exes black" and didn't quite realize what that meant. I think I'm getting it now. No matter what I do, it's going to be wrong. He has made up his mind that I'm a terrible person and an even worse mom and that's what I'll always be to him.

[livednlearned]

Unfortunately, he is very high functioning and is just smart enough to figure out what to say and how to say it. He has pissed off his attorney to the point that the law community in this area won't work with him.

I understand what you mean when you describe him as high-functioning. But can you see how little that means -- he has pissed off his attorney and the law community. He isn't functionally high-functioning, if that makes any sense  We tend to be people who believe our exes. That doesn't mean that other people do.

I guess it just bothers me that he thinks I'm an unfit mother. I know that isn't the truth but we were supposed to be co parents in raising our son and I feel like I'm in a war that I can't ever win.

Focus on being a good mother and as much as you can, don't engage with him. Ignore his comments. He will say anything to get you to negatively engaged and knows that insulting you as a mother is hitting your emotional target. If you didn't care about being a good mother, he would move onto the next thing you cared about.

If mediation doesn't work then I don't even know how court will go. He filed a contempt motion, which to be honest, I was in contempt.

Mediation will go as well as you let it. You are the boss -- your lawyer works for you. The mediator is hoping to settle out of court because that improves his/her reputation as an effective mediator. Most mediators are not psychologists and won't understand BPD. You will be the only person in that room who knows what is best for your child and for you. Have a bottom line that you can't be budged from. Find out in advance how mediation works where you live. Will you be in the same room? Is that best for you? Can you confer privately with your lawyer? What negotiation tactic will you take? Who is paying the mediator?

If your ex won't budge on your must-have items, then find out how to end mediation. No need working through it for 7 hours only to find out you're on the hook for the mediator's bill and your ex doesn't owe a dime to you, has no lawyer to pay, etc. Be prepared to go to court, especially if he is representing himself. Be prepared for a lot of delays and obstructions, and everything being everyone's fault except for his. In other words, imagine how he has behaved in the past and multiply it by 10. That's how he'll be going forward.

[mrsthomps]

Unfortunately, he is very high functioning and is just smart enough to figure out what to say and how to say it. He has pissed off his attorney to the point that the law community in this area won't work with him.

I understand what you mean when you describe him as high-functioning. But can you see how little that means -- he has pissed off his attorney and the law community. He isn't functionally high-functioning, if that makes any sense   We tend to be people who believe our exes. That doesn't mean that other people do.

I guess it just bothers me that he thinks I'm an unfit mother. I know that isn't the truth but we were supposed to be co parents in raising our son and I feel like I'm in a war that I can't ever win.

Focus on being a good mother and as much as you can, don't engage with him. Ignore his comments. He will say anything to get you to negatively engaged and knows that insulting you as a mother is hitting your emotional target. If you didn't care about being a good mother, he would move onto the next thing you cared about.

If mediation doesn't work then I don't even know how court will go. He filed a contempt motion, which to be honest, I was in contempt.

Mediation will go as well as you let it. You are the boss -- your lawyer works for you. The mediator is hoping to settle out of court because that improves his/her reputation as an effective mediator. Most mediators are not psychologists and won't understand BPD. You will be the only person in that room who knows what is best for your child and for you. Have a bottom line that you can't be budged from. Find out in advance how mediation works where you live. Will you be in the same room? Is that best for you? Can you confer privately with your lawyer? What negotiation tactic will you take? Who is paying the mediator?

If your ex won't budge on your must-have items, then find out how to end mediation. No need working through it for 7 hours only to find out you're on the hook for the mediator's bill and your ex doesn't owe a dime to you, has no lawyer to pay, etc. Be prepared to go to court, especially if he is representing himself. Be prepared for a lot of delays and obstructions, and everything being everyone's fault except for his. In other words, imagine how he has behaved in the past and multiply it by 10. That's how he'll be going forward.

[/quote]
We've been to mediation before. We reached an agreement and before we could get it in front of a judge, his ex wife called me and told me about an incident between the two of them that terrified me. I backed out of that agreement and told him we would have to revisit the issue at a later date. The plan we had agreed to would have given him more time with our child and based on what I was told, I wasn't comfortable giving him that extra time anymore. We will be separated for mediation, which is fine with me. It allows me to speak to the mediator about why I'm unwilling to waiver so she won't keep pushing certain issues. And unfortunately, I have to pay for it or he is refusing to go. I could wait until the court orders it but it's going to be 6 months before we can even get in front of a judge, let alone schedule mediation. Our move date is early December and I just KNOW that he is going to drag this out in hopes that either my husband's opportunity will pass or I'll give up.

[ForeverDad]

In many jurisdictions a settlement isn't binding until it is filed with the court and signed by the judge and/or declared an order.  So, did that daycare event happen before the settlement was filed and ordered?  And wasn't it your parenting time anyway?  Then your lawyer may take the position that it wasn't enforceable yet and you had learned additional information that led you to the decisions you made.

Also, courts do have some flexibility.  That you had heightened - and apparently valid - concerns about him will be taken into consideration.

I recall what happened just a few weeks after my Final Decree was issued.  Previously my ex had had no compunctions against blocking me and failing to abide by every term of the temp order.  It was whatever she could get away with.  Well, she had said she would take son with her on a vacation out of state to visit her sibling during Spring Break.  Well, I never got anything in writing, she never went anywhere during his Spring Break from school and even asked for a trade and said I could have son on Friday overnight at the end of Spring Break week.  You can guess what happened, I went to pick son up from daycare and son wasn't there.  I called her and she said she was already a couple states away.  So son missed the next week of kindergarten and my lawyer said I had a solid case for Contempt due to lack of proper notice.

The magistrate instead ruled that ex had an "inability to comply" with the order.   How so?  The terms of the old order she had violated didn't apply because it was no longer in effect.  The terms of the new order she had violated didn't apply either because it had only been in effect for a couple weeks and so she couldn't meet the 30 day notice requirement.  So she totally ignored both requirements, never giving any specific dates nor notice in writing and still got "a hall pass from the teacher" after the fact.

My point is that most courts are unwilling to condemn the parent acting poorly unless they really have to.  And if you did have basis in your mind to make the choices you made then most likely the court will look for ways to consider them favorably as it went out of it way to do for my ex.

[mrsthomps]

In many jurisdictions a settlement isn't binding until it is filed with the court and signed by the judge and/or declared an order.  So, did that daycare event happen before the settlement was filed and ordered?  And wasn't it your parenting time anyway?  Then your lawyer may take the position that it wasn't enforceable yet and you had learned additional information that led you to the decisions you made.

Also, courts do have some flexibility.  That you had heightened - and apparently valid - concerns about him will be taken into consideration.

I recall what happened just a few weeks after my Final Decree was issued.  Previously my ex had had no compunctions against blocking me and failing to abide by every term of the temp order.  It was whatever she could get away with.  Well, she had said she would take son with her on a vacation out of state to visit her sibling during Spring Break.  Well, I never got anything in writing, she never went anywhere during his Spring Break from school and even asked for a trade and said I could have son on Friday overnight at the end of Spring Break week.  You can guess what happened, I went to pick son up from daycare and son wasn't there.  I called her and she said she was already a couple states away.  So son missed the next week of kindergarten and my lawyer said I had a solid case for Contempt due to lack of proper notice.

The magistrate instead ruled that ex had an "inability to comply" with the order.   How so?  The terms of the old order she had violated didn't apply because it was no longer in effect.  The terms of the new order she had violated didn't apply either because it had only been in effect for a couple weeks and so she couldn't meet the 30 day notice requirement.  So she totally ignored both requirements, never giving any specific dates nor notice in writing and still got "a hall pass from the teacher" after the fact.

My point is that most courts are unwilling to condemn the parent acting poorly unless they really have to.  And if you did have basis in your mind to make the choices you made then most likely the court will look for ways to consider them favorably as it went out of it way to do for my ex.

I know I post questions about this all the time and I really appreciate your responses! They are enlightening!

Anyway, we have an existing order that was put into effect in 2012. The mediated agreement is over 6 months old so nothing should be an issue there. My biggest fear about my ex filing a contempt motion against me is that we did take S2 out of state to visit my in laws over Labor Day and I didn't give him any notice. Our specific plan does not dictate that I'm required to tell him we are leaving the state unless it will be for 2 weeks or more (it was 3 days). My ex actually said, "You can't take him out of state without MY PERMISSION." I'm sorry, no. So we went ahead and took S2 to see family and my dBPDex called the police. They went to my house (my sister was house sitting) and asked her where we were. She told them we were out of town so they notified CPS for the 2nd time. Of course, nothing came of yet another investigation being opened. We are very competent parents. We just have gotten to a point that my husband and I are tired of trying to meet the never ending list of demands that my ex puts on us.

[ForeverDad]

Then you *probably* have nothing to fear if he tries to seek Contempt of Court.  Clearly, he reinterpreted the order, picking out selected phrases to fit his distorted and entitled perspective.

Sadly, our ex-whatevers have the uncanny ability to keep us off balance and second guessing ourselves.  It didn't happen overnight, they had lots of practice to become master manipulators.  While they may even be able to fool the court for a while, they will lose credibility over time.  Slowly, too slowly even, but eventually.

I recall the GAL's report when I was seeking custody, it included ex's belated claim I had committed DV, some ridiculous claim I had choked her or something.  We had been separated for over 5 years and divorced for 3 years.  By then the court had already questioned her credibility, though on a separate matter.  I walked out with custody.