Heading for a recycle?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am finding myself in a situation with my ex wife where I feel like things could potentially end up being bad again. We have suddenly and recently been getting a long a lot better. We had to meet last Friday to talk about some things related to our daughter and I was really surprised by the way that the conversation took a very personal, intimate tone. We had been getting a long really well for the past almost 8 months now, with the divorce final (after almost 2 years) this past June. She told me a week ago now that she wanted to be friends with me. She cried a little and said she missed me, that I had been her best friend (Yet she left me?) and various other things. It was so hard to listen to. It made me realize how much healing I have left to do over what happened with us. Then on Monday I had already agreed to help her with some things and we ended up spending the entire day together. I picked her up in my truck Monday, as we had to go pick something up for her. Then we spent the day together, went to a movie and she even cooked me dinner. It was actually a wonderful day and we had some incredible, deep conversations. We spent the evening together on Tuesday night with our daughter and she made the comment that it was like we were playing house and we had not just spent time like that together in a really long time. Then today we saw each other briefly and talked more about some things. We are having some really good talks about a lot of things that have never been talked about.

Yet today I realized that she still doesn’t see what she did to me, or her part in it at least. If she does she cannot or will not acknowledge it to me. Her best friend is still this crazy woman who smeared me all over town, a woman who talks/talked trash about me and fed my ex lies about me. This woman is well known to have BPD and if there was anyone I have ever hated in my life it is this woman. Hate might be strong but I have never disliked someone to the degree I dislike my ex wifes best friend. And I don’t know how she would stay friends with someone who not only treats the father of her child so badly but also has a reputation for being a backstabbing crazy “B” …. That is a separate issue but sad to me because it is only a matter of time before that situation goes south I am sure of it.

So anyway the topic also came up of a physical relationship, friends with benefits or something maybe. Not that it was going to happen but rather just generally exploring our relationship and seeing where it might go. Yet for days now all I can think or feel is like I have lost my freaking mind? How could I so easily forget all the bad? Why would I even want to be friends with her let alone entertain the idea of possibly sleeping with her again? I am really struggling to remember why I am glad we are divorced, why it is better, how bad she treated me, all the broken promises, lies, blackmail, trash talking me and other craziness? I feel like when we talked last Friday pandora’s box of emotions for me was opened up or something and I am struggling to get them under control again almost like I am in quicksand or something. I fear we are heading for disaster, or a recycle and I have a difficult time imagining how it would be good in the long run even if the sex we great or it was good for a while and yet I feel like I can not or do not want to stop it. We have been broken up for almost 2 years now, have not slept together in that long. It was almost 2 years ago that things got really ugly. I feel helpless almost to her seductiveness. She is taking my daughter out of town for a 5 days starting tomorrow which I am sad to miss my daughter but I think it couldn’t be better timing really. Then I am going hunting for 10 days not long after they get back so the time away I am really hoping will help me get my perspective back. I just don’t know what to do or how to make myself remember why any kind of relationship where I trust her is a bad idea. I want to believe she is changed, I want to be able to trust her and yet at the same time I know it is probably a bad idea but my emotions wont stop. It is like a friend of mine says to me sometimes, he says “we get frustrated because we see a turkey and we want to believe it is a pigeon so we expect it to fly but then it can’t fly and we get mad even though we knew it was a turkey the whole time. Yet we keep going back hoping the turkey will fly, when it can not nor will it ever fly” I think I am in that space of wanting a turkey to fly. So any words of encouragement or just in general words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[thisyoungdad]

I am finding myself in a situation with my ex wife where I feel like things could potentially end up being bad again. We have suddenly and recently been getting a long a lot better. We had to meet last Friday to talk about some things related to our daughter and I was really surprised by the way that the conversation took a very personal, intimate tone. We had been getting a long really well for the past almost 8 months now, with the divorce final (after almost 2 years) this past June. She told me a week ago now that she wanted to be friends with me. She cried a little and said she missed me, that I had been her best friend (Yet she left me?) and various other things. It was so hard to listen to. It made me realize how much healing I have left to do over what happened with us. Then on Monday I had already agreed to help her with some things and we ended up spending the entire day together. I picked her up in my truck Monday, as we had to go pick something up for her. Then we spent the day together, went to a movie and she even cooked me dinner. It was actually a wonderful day and we had some incredible, deep conversations. We spent the evening together on Tuesday night with our daughter and she made the comment that it was like we were playing house and we had not just spent time like that together in a really long time. Then today we saw each other briefly and talked more about some things. We are having some really good talks about a lot of things that have never been talked about.

Yet today I realized that she still doesn’t see what she did to me, or her part in it at least. If she does she cannot or will not acknowledge it to me. Her best friend is still this crazy woman who smeared me all over town, a woman who talks/talked trash about me and fed my ex lies about me. This woman is well known to have BPD and if there was anyone I have ever hated in my life it is this woman. Hate might be strong but I have never disliked someone to the degree I dislike my ex wifes best friend. And I don’t know how she would stay friends with someone who not only treats the father of her child so badly but also has a reputation for being a backstabbing crazy “B” …. That is a separate issue but sad to me because it is only a matter of time before that situation goes south I am sure of it.

So anyway the topic also came up of a physical relationship, friends with benefits or something maybe. Not that it was going to happen but rather just generally exploring our relationship and seeing where it might go. Yet for days now all I can think or feel is like I have lost my freaking mind? How could I so easily forget all the bad? Why would I even want to be friends with her let alone entertain the idea of possibly sleeping with her again? I am really struggling to remember why I am glad we are divorced, why it is better, how bad she treated me, all the broken promises, lies, blackmail, trash talking me and other craziness? I feel like when we talked last Friday pandora’s box of emotions for me was opened up or something and I am struggling to get them under control again almost like I am in quicksand or something. I fear we are heading for disaster, or a recycle and I have a difficult time imagining how it would be good in the long run even if the sex we great or it was good for a while and yet I feel like I can not or do not want to stop it. We have been broken up for almost 2 years now, have not slept together in that long. It was almost 2 years ago that things got really ugly. I feel helpless almost to her seductiveness. She is taking my daughter out of town for a 5 days starting tomorrow which I am sad to miss my daughter but I think it couldn’t be better timing really. Then I am going hunting for 10 days not long after they get back so the time away I am really hoping will help me get my perspective back. I just don’t know what to do or how to make myself remember why any kind of relationship where I trust her is a bad idea. I want to believe she is changed, I want to be able to trust her and yet at the same time I know it is probably a bad idea but my emotions wont stop. It is like a friend of mine says to me sometimes, he says “we get frustrated because we see a turkey and we want to believe it is a pigeon so we expect it to fly but then it can’t fly and we get mad even though we knew it was a turkey the whole time. Yet we keep going back hoping the turkey will fly, when it can not nor will it ever fly” I think I am in that space of wanting a turkey to fly. So any words of encouragement or just in general words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[Mutt]

I am finding myself in a situation with my ex wife where I feel like things could potentially end up being bad again. We have suddenly and recently been getting a long a lot better. We had to meet last Friday to talk about some things related to our daughter and I was really surprised by the way that the conversation took a very personal, intimate tone. We had been getting a long really well for the past almost 8 months now, with the divorce final (after almost 2 years) this past June.

As I began reading your post it reminded me of The Vulnerable Seducer Phase in our How a Borderline Relationship Evolves article.

Snippet:

It is this intense way she has of bearing down on you emotionally that can feel very seductive.

She cried a little and said she missed me, that I had been her best friend (Yet she left me?)

She wants a rescue - Waif.

how bad she treated me, all the broken promises, lies, blackmail, trash talking me and other craziness?

^Remember this, as this is soon to follow thisyoungdad You've been there, done that. You have a Divorce Decree as proof^

What's going on in her life? Any attachments? Is their r/s on the rocks?

She's putting her feelers out. I suggest reading through the article as a reminder how these relationships evolve.

[almostmarried]

Go ahead and ask her WHY she treated you so bad.

INSIST on an answer.

See what comes up as an answer.

A answer which does make sense.

THERE IS NO ANSWER WHICH WILL MAKE SENSE.

THE ANSWER IS:SHE HAS BPD.

I wish you the best.

[woodsposse]

 

It is a recycle.  There is no heading about it. 

It's the same pattern you have probably seen countless times - but this time you are far enough on the outside and on the other side of the fence to see it and feel it.

I agree... .she is putting out feelers - something is amiss in her world and she needs a fix... .a rescue.  And, here is the straight truth - if she isn't getting if from you, she is or will get it from someone else.  It's just that simple.

And... .lets say you do get your answers to why she did things she did, or she is upfront on how bad it made you feel... .then what?

You start the cycle all over again.  Only this time, it won't take as long for things to turn to crap - because they are already at crap.  You are just trying to rationalize and cover up the fact that you walked right back into crap.  And that's okay too... .just know that that is what you are doing.

My question for you is... .what is going on in your head (and heart) that you need to have these feels from someone who did all the horrible things to you?  Yes, it is comforting to feel that they are sorry and can rally back to you (put you back on a pedestal)... .but... .for what?

There are billions of people on this planet - and probably millions of people who live near or around you who are willing from day one to treat you with dignity and respect that you are willing to treat them.  so... .why go back to the one person who treated you so badly?

At the end of the day - your happiness starts and ends with you.  Never let someone else dictate how you are going to feel.   

[inthenow]

just run.

you don't owe her anything,- we are each responsible for our own happiness.

[ajr5679]

wow I could of wrote everything that you wrote. I went back to my ex. the first two months was great. then it started she would not even go out to eat with me . she would not do anything I wanted to do. it was like my life was turned over to her . when she split me black again . I knew how everything was going to play out I even new the day she would leave. it was like I was watch a movie over I knew the ending . then I had to start all over again. she wont change mine told me she change but she never did . h ell she did not even get a new script. she even said the same words. run forest run.

[KeepOnGoing]

Here's the thing. We are addicted to the seduction. Also, how many times have you had this "reunion" played out in your mind? And now here it is! See, when we've been painted black, we go over and over in our minds the scenario of what it would be like to reunite. But remember, the reunion in our minds is not reality! The reunion in our minds is with someone who suddenly realizes everything they did wrong, and all is normal. That's the problem. BPD is a disorder. And these folks will never be normal.

[talithacumi]

Sucks to find yourself having to deal with these kinds of feelings and questions, this youngdad. Been there, done that, it feels, a hundred times since the relationship with my expwBPD ended. Take a deep breath. Take a short mental break. Step away from all those crazy/conflicted feelings for a moment, and have a good long cry.

I don't think it's ever going to be easy for you to deal with the feelings your ex elicits from you - good or bad. It's obvious you love, and care for her very deeply. Always have. Always will. Finding a way to live, having those feelings about someone who suffers from this particular disorder, is the thing all of us here struggle with the most, I think - myself definitely included.

There probably is something going on in her life that triggered her insecurities/fears, prompted her to reach out to you for caretaking/rescuing again in the way she did. Doesn't really matter what that something is really. Could be anything. Couldbe  something that isn't even real to anyone but her. All that really matters is how she's reacting/responding to it, and how that's effecting you - especially since you have a child involved.

Perhaps it will help to remember that all she's really trying to do is make whatever bad feelings she's experiencing in the moment go away. If it works, she won't feel bad anymore and will stop doing it. If it doesn't work, she'll try something else - and probably with someone else - until she finds a combination that will. Either way, in my experience, it won't last and you'll find yourself being treated once again in exactly the same indifferent/hostile way you were before this latest crisis arose.

The best you can do is simply understand that it's a temporary thing - even if - no, make that ESPECIALLY because she won't feel, think, talk about, or act like it's temporary or anything but the genuine article at all - and set some emotional boundaries with yourself when dealing with her so you don't end up getting anymore hurt by the way things have worked out than you already are.

I think it's possible to validate her feelings and be supportive of how difficult/lonely/painful/sad things are for her right now WHILE making it clear that you're NOT interested fixing/rescuing her by having the kind of relationship you once did with her anymore which you UNDERSTAND is one of the things that makes BOTH of you so sad.

Friends with benefits? It would be nice, but, given everything that's happened between the two of you, that just wouldn't work out the way either one of you would want in the end. If that's the kind of relationship she - or you, for that matter - are really interested in having with someone at this point, it would be better for everyone involved if it were with someone with, and for whom, so many other memories/feelings don't already exist to muck up all that casual, warm, friendly fun.

You were together a long time. Regardless of what she's said, or how she's treated you, it's a major change - in your fundamental identity as well as lifestyle - that's effecting her just as much as it's been effecting you. You have your weak moments. She has hers. This is one of them. It'll pass, just like yours do.

It's sad that things have changed so dramatically, but they did. Grieve for everything you've lost. It had value. It had meaning for you. It defined, and made you who you are. It still does. Not being able to be with her anymore doesn't change that, and it never will.

All that's changed - however truly sad that may be - is how you're able to express and honor the value/meaning those things have to you.

Go slow. Have patience. Be forgiving of the many, many mistakes you will make as you look for a way to do that. It will take time, but it will come.

- TC

[Perfidy]

Hi TYD, hope you are having a good day today and that you are well. You highlited in bold a question. " Have I lost my mind?" Answer: no. You are clearly using your mind to think about going back to an abusive environment with the hope of change. Understandable. If you haven't had enough experience to know what to expect, then proceed with your research. Emotion is a powerful force. Your mind is a tool. Used properly, your mind is the best tool you have. For your mind to function properly it has to be sharper than a razor. Emotion takes the edge away. Create space between your emotion, your mind, and your body. Understand that you are not your mind, your mind is yours as part of an aggregate. This aggregate we call a human being, or a self. Your self is the possessor of your mind, body, emotion, and all of the energies that propell change. If you re-enter the relationship that you describe and your hopes do not emerge, then you are responsible for your self.

Largely, as humans we tend to place values on people and things that they do not possess. This is ignorance. This is the source of all suffering. The elimination of suffering is knowledge. Get your knowledge. Learn more about BPD. You don't have to suffer. You can stop the cycle. This cycle of hatred and desire is poisoning. Can you say toxic relationship? So, no. You haven't lost your mind. You just need it sharpened.

When the past comes to call it will have nothing new to say.

I wish you well.

[woodsposse]

Sucks to find yourself having to deal with these kinds of feelings and questions, this youngdad. Been there, done that, it feels, a hundred times since the relationship with my expwBPD ended. Take a deep breath. Take a short mental break. Step away from all those crazy/conflicted feelings for a moment, and have a good long cry.

I don't think it's ever going to be easy for you to deal with the feelings your ex elicits from you - good or bad. It's obvious you love, and care for her very deeply. Always have. Always will. Finding a way to live, having those feelings about someone who suffers from this particular disorder, is the thing all of us here struggle with the most, I think - myself definitely included.

There probably is something going on in her life that triggered her insecurities/fears, prompted her to reach out to you for caretaking/rescuing again in the way she did. Doesn't really matter what that something is really. Could be anything. Couldbe  something that isn't even real to anyone but her. All that really matters is how she's reacting/responding to it, and how that's effecting you - especially since you have a child involved.

Perhaps it will help to remember that all she's really trying to do is make whatever bad feelings she's experiencing in the moment go away. If it works, she won't feel bad anymore and will stop doing it. If it doesn't work, she'll try something else - and probably with someone else - until she finds a combination that will. Either way, in my experience, it won't last and you'll find yourself being treated once again in exactly the same indifferent/hostile way you were before this latest crisis arose.

The best you can do is simply understand that it's a temporary thing - even if - no, make that ESPECIALLY because she won't feel, think, talk about, or act like it's temporary or anything but the genuine article at all - and set some emotional boundaries with yourself when dealing with her so you don't end up getting anymore hurt by the way things have worked out than you already are.

I think it's possible to validate her feelings and be supportive of how difficult/lonely/painful/sad things are for her right now WHILE making it clear that you're NOT interested fixing/rescuing her by having the kind of relationship you once did with her anymore which you UNDERSTAND is one of the things that makes BOTH of you so sad.

Friends with benefits? It would be nice, but, given everything that's happened between the two of you, that just wouldn't work out the way either one of you would want in the end. If that's the kind of relationship she - or you, for that matter - are really interested in having with someone at this point, it would be better for everyone involved if it were with someone with, and for whom, so many other memories/feelings don't already exist to muck up all that casual, warm, friendly fun.

You were together a long time. Regardless of what she's said, or how she's treated you, it's a major change - in your fundamental identity as well as lifestyle - that's effecting her just as much as it's been effecting you. You have your weak moments. She has hers. This is one of them. It'll pass, just like yours do.

It's sad that things have changed so dramatically, but they did. Grieve for everything you've lost. It had value. It had meaning for you. It defined, and made you who you are. It still does. Not being able to be with her anymore doesn't change that, and it never will.

All that's changed - however truly sad that may be - is how you're able to express and honor the value/meaning those things have to you.

Go slow. Have patience. Be forgiving of the many, many mistakes you will make as you look for a way to do that. It will take time, but it will come.

- TC

Very well worded!

[thisyoungdad]

Thank you for all the good responses, each provided a lot to think about.

I guess I didn't think it "counted" as a recycle because we aren't back together as a couple, although we have moved back into emotional territory we have not been in since before we broke up.

I know what is going on with her, and I can see now that she does want/need to be rescued. It started when she asked if she could stop and see our daughter one night after work. If we are available I always let her stop by and say hi for a minute and this particular night she said she felt depressed going home to a house alone (which I get I have felt that way myself) and so since I understand that feeling I invited her to stay. That was the start of it. Now I see it clearly. Not to say her feelings were not legit, they were I am sure and I am sure it wasn't a conscious thing on her part but it happened and it opened pandora's box.

A lot to think about and consider. What I really appreciate about this site is not just the support but the understanding I can find here.

[Mutt]

I agree. I don't think it was a conscious decision. One thing I learned is that a pwBPD really struggle with communicating what they need / feel. She could have said "Hey listen, mind if I hang out for a bit?" Instead she said she felt depressed and it pulled on the heart strings a little.

--Mutt

[myself]

We push and pull, too. We have needs and feelings, too.

Maybe it just was what it was. She was lonely. So were you.

Many snowballs have started rolling downhill from there.

You invited, with good intentions. Do differently with the same.

If it's worth seeing if things are really changing with her, go slowly.

Especially keep an eye on yourself. Be truthful. The least illusions.

[Wastedyears25]

I was in the same situation 4 years ago we had been apart for 18 months unfortunately I fell for the seduction. At first it was "your my best friend", "you understand me like no one else" then the "well we can sleep together it doesn't have to mean we're getting back together." 3 months later he moved back in with me. It was the WORST decision I have ever made in my life! He seemed to be a totally different person attentive,  loving, doting, agreeable, heartfelt discussions,  open emotionally, more so than in our entire 20 year marriage, I thought wow he really has seen the light and changed but it was short lived, he was unable to sustain the act. Within 6 months I started seeing glimpses of the old him, about a year after our recycle began the old him was back in full force. I stuck with it for 3 more years thinking that we had been married almost 25 years I couldn't just throw that away. The last year was the worst year of our 28 year relationship he was disordered almost the entire year the rages, the blaming, the silent treatment, the smear campaign, nothing made him happy, he made our D16 and my life hell on earth. I would have rather he cheated or walked out again than have to had live through that.

Mine is a cautionary tale. Think long and hard before deciding to let her back into your life as a friend or otherwise. I wish I would have never responded to his pleas to meet and talk to him 4 years ago.