For those who experience emotional incest, how do you feel about other parent?

[Trollvaaken]

So, my uBPD mum and I have always had an emotionally incestuous relationship. Just to give you an idea:

- We slept together and she would dress me until I was 14, to be honest, I knew it wasn't normal, but didn't resist since my father snored and I was needy and lazy(though my mum, as the parent, should have told me to sleep in my own room way earlier);

- She treats me like her therapist (she even called me her "in-house psychologist" when I was living at home);

- She worked abroad for a while to get away from my dad, but during skype chats with me would ask me if he had changed as she was going to base her decision to divorce him on my thoughts (can you imagine the pressure?)

I am the last of three daughters and I would say that I am the one with whom my father has the best relationship.

Throughout our lives, my mum has complained to us about our father and threatened to divorce him. My dad has a low emotional IQ and is very cheap. It isn't just my mother who thinks he is cheap, we all do and even people from his FOO think he is too, but I think he is even cheaper because my mum spends a lot on frivolous things. He is very bad at expressing himself and when they argue, he can get nasty because he feels trapped.

I love both my parents and both are far from perfect. My mum has done way more for me (in terms of encouraging me to take up hobbies, education and helping me out in times of need) than my dad has. So despite all the messed up situations my mum has put me through, I still feel somewhat betrayed by my father for not intervening. I know it is common for fathers, especially from his generation, to think that a mother knows best, but I feel like he could have done more as the adult.

It's situations like these that really make you realise things aren't all black and white.

I remember reading in this book about child sexual abuse, that some victims of sexual abuse feel guilt because their abuse wasn't violent, so they feel almost like they went along with it. I feel like I am in a situation where my mother smother-loved me and in exchange for support, she required obedience whereas, my father didn't really do anything, so I feel like there is no where to turn and how maybe this would be easier if one parent was all good and the other all bad.

I am going to see a psychologist about this soon, but it took me a long time to make the decision because of FOG, thinking that I was ungrateful and that there are people who have it so much worse than me I should just grow up and move on.

[HappyChappy]

I do feel for your position and well done on figuring it out and surviving it. I also initially struggled with “why did dad allow this.” But then I realised it took me most my life to figure it out, so why should he. I also realise now that a BPD will specifically target those they feel they can manipulate. Quiet often emotional stunted people (like my dad). Add to that the BPD are experts at projecting the blame onto us all, Dads included.

I think what saved me, is having a wife that insist we look at the evidence. We judge based on what people do, not what they say. She spent her career in the Police, so never had much truck with my BPD’s fairy tails (as she calls them). I think the problem we have is the emotional involvement and the FOG. But you seem aware of this, and if you get your Psycologist I’m sure you’ll resolve it all.

[Trollvaaken]

Wow, thanks HappyChappy, what you said about judging people on their actions instead of on their words is blatantly obvious, but I didn't think about it.

I think in the last few years, I have started seeing through my mother's lies or exaggerations, but I haven't tried to see through the ones of the past which I hold as true. I know my father is far from a perfect man, but regarding the things my mother told me about him, especially when I was a child, I cannot really hold that against him. It might be true, or it might just be my mother's distorted perception of things. Either way, it didn't involve me so that is between my mother and him.

My mother might also have helped me accomplish goals that didn't necessarily coincide with my father's values, but that doesn't mean that "she is the only one looking out for us, whereas he would be content doing nothing." (Obviously, black and white thinking right there.)

I remember as a teenager and even recently, feeling bad for my dad as I felt like even if I am the closest to him, he doesn't share a lot with me and I worry about him being depressed. Maybe he is trying to reach out in his clumsy way.

I should try to make my own opinions, instead of letting things from the past, that I didn't even witness affect my judgement.

[claudiaduffy]

I absolutely do feel like my father should have done more to intervene with my uBPDmom, who used me to make up for what she saw as his failings. As a child, I appreciated it that he never talked badly about her to me, but also didn't defend her actions to me: he handled that part well. There were a couple of times when he put his foot down about not punishing us for things she thought were wrong, that he saw were just her paranoia and unreasonableness.

But he never got her the professional help that she needed, and he couldn't stop all the yuckiness of her emotional incest and abusiveness. It made me so angry as a kid. I loved my dad - he and I are very alike in some ways, and were pretty close in a way that was way more appropriate than the "closeness" my mom tried to get out of me. But he was an adult and had power to do what I, as a child, could not - and I got so angry at him for not exercising that power.

... .most of it comes from the fact that my dad thinks psychology is a bunch of hooey, and so as long as my mom wasn't going around thinking she was Abraham Lincoln, he wasn't going to make her go to anyone for mental assessment. 

It just makes me sad now. He waited until after we kids were out of the house, and until my mom was fully healed from her bout with breast cancer, and then he moved out. They're not divorced, but he's never going to act like they're married again. And while I understand it, I still get angry at the passivity he exhibits. I let it roll over me and I know it's not my life, not my responsibility, but those are the feelings I have.

[Harri]

Hi Trollvaaken. 

I never got to know my father.  My mother used parental alienation almost constantly.  As a result, I only ever saw him through her filters that said he was weak, pathetic, etc.  The thing is though, he did have his own issues.  Issues that made it possible for him to sit and watch things take place that no adult, let alone a parent, should ever allow to take place. 

I have no idea what kind of man he would have been if he had not spent 46 years married to my mother.  At my more generous moments, I think he would have been a decent man.  I don't often feel generous towards him.  I struggle more with my feelings about him than I do with my mother.  She was out-right bat ___ crazy.  He was a whole other kind of crazy.

By the time my mother died and I got to spend some time with just him, he was so damaged and still so tied to her that I think he just gave up on life.  He died just one month shy of the anniversary of my mother's death.  I did not really get the opportunity to see him through my own eyes, though by that time I was far too hurt and still angry with him to really try.

[aubin]

My parents divorced when I was seven and after that I only got the filtered version of my father as seen through my mother's eyes. I spent years so angry at him and completely defending my mother. He and I didn't speak for many years (mostly at my insistence). He initiated contact with me a few years ago and I've learned that he isn't the monster my mother made him out to be (though he certainly did do some bad things). Our relationship now is good, if still a bit distant. He's not had a bad word to say about my mother but still managed to be fairly supportive when I decided to limit contact with her over a year ago. A rumination I have a hard time quitting: what would my life had been like if my dad had stepped up and supported me and protected me when I was a kid? What would it have been like to have a "normal" parent? I try not to get too bogged down in this thoughts but it's hard not to.

[sophiegirl]

Trollvaaken, I'm glad you will be getting an opportunity to sort though your feelings and emotions. This is a complex issue for many of us. My father just left one day, went NC. I spent years angry and hurt that he could leave me alone with a person like my mother and not take me with him and never even get in touch. But looking back (that was 46 years ago) and it took me most of that to work out, he had to make a decision. To stay and have his life and soul destroyed or leave and live a normal life without us. Of course back then a father couldn't just walk out with his young daughter leaving what would have been a very distraught mother behind, he would have been seriously vilified. So I guess your dad made a choice to stay and paid a price for that decision. Either way there are no winners.

Hope you can find some peace.

[Trollvaaken]

Thank you for all your responses and I feel very sorry for those of you who never really got to know their fathers and that it was all too little too late.

I guess I consider myself fortunate to be finding out about this at 26, than later on. Then I can salvage some sort of relationship with him based on what I know of him and hopefully, no longer let my mother cloud my judgement and make my own personal opinion. My father is clueless and emotionally stunted. I am angry at him for not taking action, but then again, knowing who he is, he wouldn't even know what action to take. I used to think that at his age, he should take initiative for his own well-being, but he doesn't have the insight for that, or at least hasn't really exhibited it.

I think the takeaway message here is that they made their choices, they are adults and responsible for their own lives and there isn't really anything I can do to change that. I feel like I have been carrying this weight for so long and that already in the few days I have been on this forum, I realised that by acknowledging and validating how much it hurts, I am actually feeling better than I have in a long time.

[Finding Courage]

I used to feel sorry for my dad, but now I realize that he was the other adult in the situation, he was just as neglectful just in different ways.  Emotional incest is quite toxic and I felt so validated the first time I heard the term.  For me, it explains everything.  And the pattern is the same as incest, using me in inappropriate ways for my mom's own gain.  With no regard for me, boundaries, or the long term impact.  Sometimes I think my dad may not have had the skills to intervene, but that doesn't make it ok because I really needed a protective parent to just let me be a kid and I didn't get that.  Sometimes when I am really struggling, I try to remember that for me emotional incest is just as traumatic as sexual incest and it is no wonder I feel like a trauma survivor most days.  Best wishes to you!

[MyLifeNow]

I also never really got to know the other parent (my mom). She opted out and went NC when I was still pretty young, which was when the emotional incest started. It was kind of a dramatic process. One day while dad was at work she basically kidnapped me, hiding me at a friend's place, and then got another friend or two to help her load up the car with things she'd need. Then she started divorce proceedings. Thing was she had never been that involved in my life. I think what was happening was dad had split us - I got white, she got black. I suppose that probably made it difficult for her to get all that involved with anyone. So when the divorce came through I actually told the judge that I wanted to stay with dad, because we actually had a relationship and I was being split white at the time.

When I was in my mid-20's I found out that she blamed me for our lack of contact while I was growing up. I can get that she didn't want to call and wind up talking to dad before she could talk to me, but it's hardly reasonable to expect an abandoned child stuck in an abusive home to reach out to the person who left them. I have a friend whose mom is likely a pwBPD and was similarly abused. When I told them about this it actually made them feel a little better about themselves, since as damaged as they are they'd never be that bad at "adulting". I was pretty angry about being blamed for my abandonment for a long time. These days I don't feel much of anything about it. It was a pretty impossible situation for her. For her own health she had to be NC with dad, but whenever she called he acted as a gatekeeper forcing her to talk to him before I could get on the phone.

She did, at least, apologize for leaving me in that situation. Even if it had been my choice that put me there. I don't really regret it either. At least I had friends and got to go to university.

[lm1109]

I struggle with this a WHOLE lot! I am 28 and left my parents home as soon as I turned 18 because the emotional incest was so bad. I got away and then at 20 my brother passed away and I was sucked right back in as her little caretaker instead of living my life. I just recently went very little contact with her because I could no longer handle it. My mother also used me as her personal therapist. I was like a bobble head listening to all her problems at the kitchen table agreeing and validating her every decision when I was just a young kid that should have been playing. I did it because our "talks" were really the only attention I received from her. I learned to never disagree with her and was very calculated with all my answers because if I said something she didn't like she would roll her eyes, get up and withdraw all love and attention. She would tell me disgustingly personal details about her and my dads relationship. She would tell me what a horrible person he was and ALL the bad things he had done to her when he was drinking, she would encourage my brother and I to make fun of him and degrade him, and we would all the time. He was a joke in our house and that's how my mother made it and wanted it. Anytime I would try to get close to him my mother would sabatoge the relationship. When I was really little my Dad would take me fishing and we would talk and laugh... .I loved it! Then one day he just stopped taking me. He never asked me to go. Years later my mom mentioned how she had told my Dad that I didn't want to go with him, she claims I told her that, which was a lie. Still to this day, my Dad can only call me secretly on his way to work, and will only talk to me for no longer than 10 minutes. He tried to establish a "ritual" of him and I going out to dinner every couple of months just him and I. We did that one time... .my mom threw a hissy fit... .because she thinks everything is about her and we were just talking bad about her(major major paranoia) A few days later she started a HUGE fight with me and said the most hurtful things you could imagine, which is what led to the very little contact. I will only speak to her via text RARELY when she initiates it, that's it. I believe the fight stemmed from my Dad trying to get close to me. I do get angry at him. I wish he had protected me. I wish he would put his foot down and have a real relationship with me, but he wont. He's a recovering alcoholic and I believe he is the major prey of my mother. He wasn't allowed to have a relationship with his mother, brothers, no one! She controls him like a puppet, and its a shame, because I like my Dad and think we could have a good relationship, if he wanted to. The worst part is that they play up the grieving parents role because of my brothers death. Meanwhile, neither of them were speaking to him when he died, and my mother was fighting with him horribly and always acted as though he was the biggest screw up on earth, he couldn't do anything right(my role now) Im sure they still grieve him and have a lot of guilt(as they should... he committed suicide) But now they are doing the same thing to me, and my Dad is allowing it to happen AGAIN! Its hard, I struggle because deep down I really like and love my Dad a lot. He is a recovered alcoholic and they say users are stifled at the age they were when they began using. He was able to kick the drugs and alcohol but has never been able to kick my mother, so I think I believe he is more stifled from all her abuse! Emotionally was probably just another scared kid in her clutches. It still hurts

[sophiegirl]

I feel like I'm sabotaging your post here, but as always other peoples experiences are so thought provoking that ideas spring into mind and really there's nowhere except here that we can share them.

After reading the responses so far I presume that as the waif my mother attracted a man who took care of her, who rescued her from all those people who were causing her grief. No doubt at some point he realised that he hadn't rescued her at all, her need to be cared for was constant, perhaps he thought her state of mind was all his fault. Maybe he felt as uncomfortable in this role as I do. So she introduced a baby into the mix because that will make her happy and he realises he's trapped with her for another 16 years unless he gets out, so he packs his bags and leaves when she's out one day and leaves no note, reason or contact address.

For the first time I think it may have been a dreadful decision for him to make. I have just two photos of him cradling me in his arms as a baby. His freedom I'm sure came at a high emotional price.

If he had stayed would things have been any better? I think probably not.

again, Trollvaaken, sorry for running off on a tangent on your post.

[HappyChappy]

So a post about emotional incest has turned into one about passive partners and our anger with them. But the way I see it, if you weren't passive then you fight the BPD. A BPD has endless energy in a power struggle, so a partner like that would leave, divorce. Not good for the kids either. If my dad had left my BPD... .that would have been far worse, to be left alone with my BPDm I shudder to think. So the passive partner, in a way may have done the right thing for the kids. My dad certainly did. Let’s not let the expert projection the BPD has, work.  

[Harri]

I think the takeaway message here is that they made their choices, they are adults and responsible for their own lives and there isn't really anything I can do to change that. I feel like I have been carrying this weight for so long and that already in the few days I have been on this forum, I realised that by acknowledging and validating how much it hurts, I am actually feeling better than I have in a long time.

Trollvaaken, I agree 100%.  I am glad you will have the chance to get to know your father outside of the context of your mom.  I am also glad you are able to embrace the hurt you feel (though I am sorry you *are* hurting).  It has taken me a very long time to uncover the hurt, anger and rage I feel about my dad's passive participation in the abuse.  It is important to validate and embrace those feelings.  Those steps are, I believe, necessary before we can release the hurt or anger and move on, though I am not sure I will ever reach a point of no anger and no hurt.  However, I do want to be able to feel it, express it and then release it rather than stuff and dismiss it.  So I will place blame and hold him (and my mother) responsible for the abuse I experienced and I will hold him responsible for the poor choices he made.  Surely that too is a requirement for moving through and reaching a place of forgiveness?   

[claudiaduffy]

So a post about emotional incest has turned into one about passive partners and our anger with them. ... .the passive partner, in a way may have done the right thing for the kids. My dad certainly did. Let’s not let the expert projection the BPD has, work.  

Well, the post topic asked how we felt about the "other" parent.  I don't think this is a thread of people succumbing to BPD projection; it's a thread of people navigating their own way through having, in reality, two parents who allowed abuse in the home. Just because a passive presence may have mitigated some overt abuse doesn't mean that the passive presence was healthy, either! I unfortunately had to unlearn a lot of enabling behavior that I saw my dad exhibit over the years.

My uBPDmom's abusiveness was not my dad's fault; but neither was his passive enabling HER fault. It did me no favors to make him a hero and her a villain, as I did for several years. Soberly recognizing his complicity in the abuse system is part of the way I am maturing as an emotionally healthy adult, and it actually helps me have a better - though still healthfully limited - relationship with each of them.

[Trollvaaken]

My uBPDmom's abusiveness was not my dad's fault; but neither was his passive enabling HER fault. It did me no favors to make him a hero and her a villain, as I did for several years. Soberly recognizing his complicity in the abuse system is part of the way I am maturing as an emotionally healthy adult, and it actually helps me have a better - though still healthfully limited - relationship with each of them.

My dad has his own issues (not just the passivity) that pushed me further into my mother's arms/deeper into emotional incest. These issues have been proven to be not just my mother's projections, but even co-workers and relatives of my father have noticed these faults.

HappyChappy, it would be impossible for our parents to have known unless they read the most recent research, but sometimes divorce is a healthier solution for the children than living in a home with constant conflict. One good thing about my parents staying together is that at least my dad was the bad guy, so it took some pressure off us.

That is why I asked people how they feel about the passive parent in their lives. In my case, it really wasn't black and white. At this point, I'm just trying to sort out fact from fiction.

[Sofie]

Great thread! And so much here resonates... .

My father died of a heart attack when I was 14. To be honest, I did not really care much. And the fact that it did not really affect me much has been a major source of guilt most of my life, because I thought it meant that I must be some kind of emotionally numb psychopath. He was my dad, right? I SHOULD feel sad.

In recent years, my outlook has changed a bit, though. I have come to realise that the reason that his death did not affect me much was due to that we never bonded in the first place. He was a weak and enabling man who allowed my abusive uBPD/NPD mother to abuse and control our entire family.

When I was a child, he was quite ill several times, and I grew up with that "we should all feel sorry for Dad." And yes, I AM sorry that he was ill, he was not a cruel nor a bad man, but I blame my mother and him for bringing my sister and I up to believe that we should emotionally caretake for our parents. So, over the years I have come to realise that I am not a bad person for not feeling sorry that my father died - I just never developed a bond to him that would cause me to feel sorry.

[Pingo]

I hope it's okay I chime in.  My mother is the uBPD and my father the enabler.  I didn't quite see it like this growing up, it has only been in the last few years while I was in a r/s with my uBPDexh and the learning I've done since we split 4 mths ago.  I was the youngest of four and my mother's confidant.  She told me all about her abusive, incestuous childhood, her depression and thoughts of suicide... .way too much for a small child to handle. I was her therapist/best friend.  I used to feel sorry for my father, thinking why did he stay with her when he's normal and she is crazy?  Now I am starting to realise that his enabling her and at the same time keeping a great emotional distance from her is the reason why she had to come to me with all that crap so many years ago!  She had no one else to confide in.  She had no close friends, she was estranged from her family and her husband was aloof and unavailable.  I'm starting to realise he wasn't so innocent after all.  To this day he defends her craziness, he feels it's what married couples should do, support their spouse.  Meanwhile he has lost his r/s with his kids because they don't want anything to do with her.  So frustrating that the non-crazy parent can't validate my experience and continues to support the crazy one!  Some of the stuff he's defended her on is out of this world!  I just don't understand it except to say that he is obviously very troubled as well.  Sometimes it makes me feel like perhaps I am going crazy as well! 

Btw, I'm very LC with my Dad, we speak a few times a year on the phone & cards at holidays.  My Mom and I have only spoke once in 4 yrs.  It's the only way to cope at the moment.

[Trollvaaken]

She told me all about her abusive, incestuous childhood, her depression and thoughts of suicide... .way too much for a small child to handle. I was her therapist/best friend.  I used to feel sorry for my father, thinking why did he stay with her when he's normal and she is crazy?  Now I am starting to realise that his enabling her and at the same time keeping a great emotional distance from her is the reason why she had to come to me with all that crap so many years ago!  She had no one else to confide in.  She had no close friends, she was estranged from her family and her husband was aloof and unavailable.  I'm starting to realise he wasn't so innocent after all. 

Whoa... .pretty much the same story as me. However, I never really felt sorry for my dad for staying with my mum, I felt sorry for my uBPD mum for having a husband that wasn't there for her. I realise by reading the part of this forum dedicated to those who have had a relationship with a BPD that there isn't really much a spouse can do to help, but I think my dad not only was an enabler in regards to pushing my mother into my arms instead of his, but also he was just downright mean, not just impatient. Plus, he is not the "white knight" type. My theory is that he was attracted to my mother for the usual things like looks and that she was exotic to him, but I think in the beginning he was charmed by how high maintenance she is.

I remember in my psychology classes they spoke about attachment styles and they said it is common for someone who is avoidant to be with a person that is ambivalent. So my dad withholds emotion whereas my mother is basically spilling it out everywhere making a mess of the place. And as you mentioned Pingo, I think my father thinks this is normal in a marriage (he came from a dysfunctional family too).

The thing is, I am not angry at my mother, I see her as someone that is sick and that doesn't have the insight to get help. After spending some time on this forum, I don't even really feel betrayed by my father so much either, he is emotionally stunted and who knows what is going on in his head.

Both of them are just clueless people who revolved around each other and formed a toxic relationship.

[bpbreakout]

Thank you for this post. Can I offer the perspective of the non BPD parent ? Sadly, the issues you all discussed are all too familiar and it is a no win situation.

I have two children (d15 , s13) BPDw. I thought about leaving a few years agao but stayed on in part because I wanted to live with my kids full time and in part because BPDw had a major breakdown & me leaving would have made things worse. I hindsight I think the fact that we didn't end up in a joint custody situation was best for our children at the time though may not be now. I put my daughter in therapy to help with with relationship with BPD mum, I think that's been good for her. Joint parenting with BPDw is difficult. BPDw has been verbally and occasionally physically abusive to D15 when I'm not around so had I left I guess that side of it would be worse if I hadn't been at least living in the same house. BPDw uses s13 as an emotional crutch at time and I've no doubt it would be worse as well if I wasn't around.

If I left now I've no doubt there would be a very difficult custody battle & a 50/50 arrangement at best. I think D15 would prefer to live with me but S13 would be torn in two & hence end up spending a lot of time living alone with BPDw which would not be good for him.

My daughter is angry with me for not protecting her from the verbal abuse and sometimes resents the fact she sees a therapist whereras BPDw has done very little on front - if I were in D15's position I would feel the same. My son resents being "bossed around" by his mother and I suspect is angry at me on one level for not standing up to BPDw's verbal abuse - again if I was in his position I would feel the same & he's not old enough to realise that I'm often using SET with BPDw to calm things down.

BPDw often cricitises me for not taking "her side" when she fights with our kids.

I'm not sure how much longer I want to stay in this marriage but I do not want to abandon my children & rightly or wrongly I've taken the view that the status quo is the best option up until now. If there was a way I could live with both kids full time I would do it.

It's right no one is perfect but if you are married to someone with BPD it's very difficult to show your emotions even if there are there because of the whole eggshell thing BPDw's emotions end up dominating the house.

I'm not sure where things will go with my situation but I would be very very upset if my relationship with my children were damaged because there think I did not stick up for them though there's obviously potential

I guess everyone's situation is dfferent but it's great to see so many people wanting a relationship with non BPD parent