Palimony #2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Her dog died under mysterious circumstances--be careful with your dog.  It might be a ploy for sympathy, but she has the potential of being very dangerous. 

She has her group of negative advocates which are feeding her feelings to treat you badly.  I find it interesting that they are all about CS (money) and no mention of the child needing a father.

I do strongly believe she seems receptive to keep you engaged with her on some level. 

Glad you are getting the protective order. 

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

[stoic83]

Her dog died under mysterious circumstances--be careful with your dog.  It might be a ploy for sympathy, but she has the potential of being very dangerous. 

She has her group of negative advocates which are feeding her feelings to treat you badly.  I find it interesting that they are all about CS (money) and no mention of the child needing a father.

I do strongly believe she seems receptive to keep you engaged with her on some level. 

Glad you are getting the protective order. 

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

[Grey Kitty]

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

Yes it sucks. No, your life isn't over.

You seem to be falling into a trap here, from my point of view. This list here is honest, and about what you want. It is good work.

1) Adoption in to a warm and loving home with 2 willing and receptive parents.

2) To be in her and the child's life as a "parent of a parent" so that I can ensure my investment in the child's life is not going for not and to protect both from further abuse. Perhaps cohabitating to save money and place cameras in all rooms for documentation.

3) To move away, change my name, and stay off the grid.

4) Assume full custody after a lengthy court battle.

5) Stay here, pay child support, and visit with the child.

6) Stay here and quit my job out of protest.

7) End my life.

But when I see things like this, I really worry about you:

I am in damage control mode at this point. I am trying to prevent her from pursuing child support by remaining in a quasi-rs... .

1) Be in a relationship with her... .allow her to move in so I can keep an eye on her and the child and put myself at risk for false allegations, however I can put cameras in every room to document. My basic needs are met by her in a relationship... .e.g. affection, listening, emotional support. My mid-higher level needs are not met... .truth, honesty, depth, adult love, empathy, sharing values, pride in partner... .etc. This is seeming like a worse option as I continue to think about it. Who could be happy in that situation?

If you pursue that... .you are throwing yourself at her mercy, giving her all the power. Once you start, it is her choice what sort of mind-games she plays with you in a quasi-rs.

And pwBPD isn't rational or stable, but they are extremely sensitive. If you really don't want to be there but are there out of fear and making a deal with the devil to pretend to be in a r/s with her... .she will KNOW something is wrong. She might guess right. She might guess wrong. She WILL guess something that gives her a reason to paint you black.

You've seen it already. It isn't pretty. Police were involved last time.

I really don't think the option of giving her "just enough" with some hope that she won't nail your ass to the wall for child support is a viable plan. At least its chance of success is LESS than "Try to make the best of being a lover/spouse to her". I'm NOT encouraging you try that option... .or telling you it belongs above #7 on your list. I'm telling you how little hope I have for the "quasi-rs" option.

[stoic83]

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

Yes it sucks. No, your life isn't over.

You seem to be falling into a trap here, from my point of view. This list here is honest, and about what you want. It is good work.

1) Adoption in to a warm and loving home with 2 willing and receptive parents.

2) To be in her and the child's life as a "parent of a parent" so that I can ensure my investment in the child's life is not going for not and to protect both from further abuse. Perhaps cohabitating to save money and place cameras in all rooms for documentation.

3) To move away, change my name, and stay off the grid.

4) Assume full custody after a lengthy court battle.

5) Stay here, pay child support, and visit with the child.

6) Stay here and quit my job out of protest.

7) End my life.

But when I see things like this, I really worry about you:

I am in damage control mode at this point. I am trying to prevent her from pursuing child support by remaining in a quasi-rs... .

1) Be in a relationship with her... .allow her to move in so I can keep an eye on her and the child and put myself at risk for false allegations, however I can put cameras in every room to document. My basic needs are met by her in a relationship... .e.g. affection, listening, emotional support. My mid-higher level needs are not met... .truth, honesty, depth, adult love, empathy, sharing values, pride in partner... .etc. This is seeming like a worse option as I continue to think about it. Who could be happy in that situation?

If you pursue that... .you are throwing yourself at her mercy, giving her all the power. Once you start, it is her choice what sort of mind-games she plays with you in a quasi-rs.

And pwBPD isn't rational or stable, but they are extremely sensitive. If you really don't want to be there but are there out of fear and making a deal with the devil to pretend to be in a r/s with her... .she will KNOW something is wrong. She might guess right. She might guess wrong. She WILL guess something that gives her a reason to paint you black.

You've seen it already. It isn't pretty. Police were involved last time.

I really don't think the option of giving her "just enough" with some hope that she won't nail your ass to the wall for child support is a viable plan. At least its chance of success is LESS than "Try to make the best of being a lover/spouse to her". I'm NOT encouraging you try that option... .or telling you it belongs above #7 on your list. I'm telling you how little hope I have for the "quasi-rs" option.

No that option belongs above #7. It's what I've discussed with my aunt and uncle. You are correct that she suspects that I am maintaining things out of fear.

Stoic

[livednlearned]

I really don't think the option of giving her "just enough" with some hope that she won't nail your ass to the wall for child support is a viable plan. At least its chance of success is LESS than "Try to make the best of being a lover/spouse to her". I'm NOT encouraging you try that option... .or telling you it belongs above #7 on your list. I'm telling you how little hope I have for the "quasi-rs" option.

I would give it zero percent chance of working.

You have very poor boundaries. Whether consciously or unconsciously, people with BPD look for people whose boundaries can be busted. I don't know many people (if any?) here on these boards whose situations get better when they make their boundaries weaker. It just tells her that you can be worn down. Next time you set a boundary, she will ratchet things up because your boundaries can be busted fairly easily. It will get worse, not better, the more you do this.

You're self-sabotaging with this plan.

[stoic83]

I really don't think the option of giving her "just enough" with some hope that she won't nail your ass to the wall for child support is a viable plan. At least its chance of success is LESS than "Try to make the best of being a lover/spouse to her". I'm NOT encouraging you try that option... .or telling you it belongs above #7 on your list. I'm telling you how little hope I have for the "quasi-rs" option.

I would give it zero percent chance of working.

You have very poor boundaries. Whether consciously or unconsciously, people with BPD look for people whose boundaries can be busted. I don't know many people (if any?) here on these boards whose situations get better when they make their boundaries weaker. It just tells her that you can be worn down. Next time you set a boundary, she will ratchet things up because your boundaries can be busted fairly easily. It will get worse, not better, the more you do this.

You're self-sabotaging with this plan.

I have poor boundaries? I got the police involved because she wouldn't leave me alone. I told her to leave me alone.

She may be pregnant with a child that I would be responsible for.

The child courts will burst my boundaries. Do they have BPD?

Regardless, she's not coming to my home or work anymore.

What kind of boundaries can I have, when the system enables these people to destroy lives?

Stoic

[livednlearned]

I'm referring to your suggestion that having a quasi-relationship with her is a good idea:

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

If I keep in touch with her, I can help her correct her faulty thinking patterns... .she's honestly receptive to it to some extent. She wants to be more self aware and curb her behaviors.

Calling the police and then having a relationship with her is antithetical to having clear, consistent boundaries.

A lot of people who get involved in BPD relationships have poor boundaries. It's one of the big tenets of healing -- establishing boundaries and maintaining them, consistently and clearly.

Are protective orders going to escalate things? Probably. Setting boundaries with people who bust them as a matter of course never goes over well. See: extinction bursts.

But jumping back into a quasi-rs is not the only other option to getting a protective order.

[stoic83]

I'm referring to your suggestion that having a quasi-relationship with her is a good idea:

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

If I keep in touch with her, I can help her correct her faulty thinking patterns... .she's honestly receptive to it to some extent. She wants to be more self aware and curb her behaviors.

Calling the police and then having a relationship with her is antithetical to having clear, consistent boundaries.

A lot of people who get involved in BPD relationships have poor boundaries. It's one of the big tenets of healing -- establishing boundaries and maintaining them, consistently and clearly.

Are protective orders going to escalate things? Probably. Setting boundaries with people who bust them as a matter of course never goes over well. See: extinction bursts.

But jumping back into a quasi-rs is not the only other option to getting a protective order.

Ok I agree with you. I haven't acted consistently and if I try to go NC again, it's.

A) going to make things worse with her

B) going to make things worse for me

I was almost there, and I didn't hold my boundaries. The threat of CS is so scary to me that I let down the boundaries.

I don't want to be a slave to this woman for the rest of my life.

She shouldn't be raising a child. She's sick. What can I do?

Stoic

[Grey Kitty]

I was almost there, and I didn't hold my boundaries. The threat of CS is so scary to me that I let down the boundaries.

If there is something she can do which will scare you enough to drop boundaries... .and she knows it... .she will use it. Again and again and again.

You showed her that it worked last time. She will push that one again, probably harder, because she knows it works with you!

Your only other choice is to face the fears directly. Then she can't use them against you.

I don't want to be a slave to this woman for the rest of my life.

Change how you say it.

Say "I will not let her manipulate me."

Believe it.

[stoic83]

I was almost there, and I didn't hold my boundaries. The threat of CS is so scary to me that I let down the boundaries.

If there is something she can do which will scare you enough to drop boundaries... .and she knows it... .she will use it. Again and again and again.

You showed her that it worked last time. She will push that one again, probably harder, because she knows it works with you!

Your only other choice is to face the fears directly. Then she can't use them against you.

I don't want to be a slave to this woman for the rest of my life.

Change how you say it.

Say "I will not let her manipulate me."

Believe it.

This makes sense. I am trying to get in to a mindset where I'm not afraid of CS and I won't let her manipulate me. I'm getting closer.

The one thing I'm most afraid of is her using my love for a child against me.

Thanks, Grey Kitty.

[livednlearned]

The one thing I'm most afraid of is her using my love for a child against me.

Do not tell her this, ok?

[Grey Kitty]

This makes sense. I am trying to get in to a mindset where I'm not afraid of CS and I won't let her manipulate me. I'm getting closer.

It is very very very hard work, but you will get there.

It IS scary to be stuck with a huge 18-year financial obligation that is outside your control! That fear is real. It is even based on something real and possible.

Don't let the fear grab you and twist you around so you make horrible choices for yourself trying to run away from it!

The one thing I'm most afraid of is her using my love for a child against me.

Same kind of thing here. You can't stop her from acting in horrible manipulative ways.  :'(

However you do not have to give in to the manipulation.

You can still choose to act in the way that is right for you.

[ForeverDad]

I was almost there, and I didn't hold my boundaries. The threat of CS is so scary to me that I let down the boundaries.

If there is something she can do which will scare you enough to drop boundaries... .and she knows it... .she will use it. Again and again and again.

You showed her that it worked last time. She will push that one again, probably harder, because she knows it works with you!

Your only other choice is to face the fears directly. Then she can't use them against you.

I don't want to be a slave to this woman for the rest of my life.

Change how you say it.

Say "I will not let her manipulate me."

Believe it.

What Grey Kitty did was show you how to redefine, refocus and restate the situation to see things more clearly, look through the binoculars from the correct end, so to speak.  In the words above, you r statement had her in control and you forced to be subservient.  Restated, it becomes evident you have a measure of control over your own life, as in "I will not let her manipulate me."

In addition, about 18 years is the limit that the courts set on parenting obligations.  You wrote "for the rest of my life" - do you only expect to live two more decades?  Silly question, I know, but it highlights that to a certain extent you are overreacting to this dilemma in your life.  Perhaps this is some level of PTSD, your own personality traits or something else.  It is good you have a counselor with good perspective to help you.

Often the hardest thing for us to do is to look at our own situation without the emotional impact.  So one technique to use is to get a new perspective.  You're on the inside looking around, you need to be on the outside looking in.  For example, what if you walked up to your friend with a problem, he had met a couple, gotten a room with them, helped the husband out the door and might have fathered a baby with the wife, now he's overwhelmed with it all.  So, what counsel and advise would you give him?  DO you see the difference?  When it's you you are overwhelmed.  When it's another you can see the situation more objectively.

[stoic83]

Thanks for the solid advice.

Update: Earlier this week she told me that her dog passed away. She said she went to the vet and that the vet said the dog was poisoned (maliciously). She told me that she thinks a pet treat from the grocery store was injected with poison.

The dog was the one thing that she shared with her now ex-husband.

I told her that if she wanted contact with me she had to stop speaking with him. (He is obssesed with violence and is a neo-nazi).

I am sad about the dog, but I'm wondering whether she or her husband killed the dog.

She did make statements about "pushing the dog off the balcony" and "duct-taping the dog to the ceiling"... .

I am scared. I don't think I am overreacting.

Foreverdad, I appreciate you sharing with me a third-party approach and trying to look at things rationally, but you make it sound as if I am responsible or did something wrong. Yes I shouldn't have trusted her, but no I don't think I am experiencing symptoms of PTSD or some other type of disorder and neither does my aunt, the PHD in psychology. This is scary stuff.

I am the victim of horrible abuse and manipulation. I'm dealing with people who are extremely sick and possibly violent. And I am frightened at not only the financial situation, but also the "human" situation.

I may have been "targeted". I don't even know if I'm dealing with pure BPD anymore. I'm a little hurt that you think I'm acting so irrationally.

Stoic

[stoic83]

I was almost there, and I didn't hold my boundaries. The threat of CS is so scary to me that I let down the boundaries.

If there is something she can do which will scare you enough to drop boundaries... .and she knows it... .she will use it. Again and again and again.

You showed her that it worked last time. She will push that one again, probably harder, because she knows it works with you!

Your only other choice is to face the fears directly. Then she can't use them against you.

I don't want to be a slave to this woman for the rest of my life.

Change how you say it.

Say "I will not let her manipulate me."

Believe it.

What Grey Kitty did was show you how to redefine, refocus and restate the situation to see things more clearly, look through the binoculars from the correct end, so to speak.  In the words above, you r statement had her in control and you forced to be subservient.  Restated, it becomes evident you have a measure of control over your own life, as in "I will not let her manipulate me."

In addition, about 18 years is the limit that the courts set on parenting obligations.  You wrote "for the rest of my life" - do you only expect to live two more decades?  Silly question, I know, but it highlights that to a certain extent you are overreacting to this dilemma in your life.  Perhaps this is some level of PTSD, your own personality traits or something else.  It is good you have a counselor with good perspective to help you.

Often the hardest thing for us to do is to look at our own situation without the emotional impact.  So one technique to use is to get a new perspective.  You're on the inside looking around, you need to be on the outside looking in.  For example, what if you walked up to your friend with a problem, he had met a couple, gotten a room with them, helped the husband out the door and might have fathered a baby with the wife, now he's overwhelmed with it all.  So, what counsel and advise would you give him?  :)O you see the difference?  When it's you you are overwhelmed.  When it's another you can see the situation more objectively.

And in Oregon it's up to 21 actually for unwed parents. Having a child is a huge sacrifice and commitment. Bigger than marriage. To be commited to that without my knowedge, consent is shattering. Being a parent is a lifelong commitment, "Forever"dad.

What would I tell the person in that situation? Oh it's going to be fine... .you guys will work it out. Aren't you a little excited to be a father? Do you have any friends and family that will help?

If this were a normal situation, then it would be traumatizing as is... .and I wouldn't be here on bpdfamily.

It makes it entirely different when you are dealing with someone who has BPD and possibly ASPD and you don't know which and they are a compulsive liar, manipulative, makes violent comments, and has a psychopath for an ex-husband, it's a little different.

Is she going to be abusive. Are you going to be forced to pay for the abuse of a child, because you can't prove it? Are you going to be killed? Is the psychopathic ex going to be lurking in the shadows?

How sick is she? How sick is he?

Stoic

[ForeverDad]

I hope you understood my intent.  We're here to help with peer support and perspective as best we can, not perfect but better than nothing.  I saw that you had two competing trains of thought, either to have full custody/involvement or no custody/involvement.  Most of the time we don't see either here, often if the courts are involved they make it a blend between parents.

[stoic83]

I hope you understood my intent.  We're here to help with peer support and perspective as best we can, not perfect but better than nothing.  I saw that you had two competing trains of thought, either to have full custody/involvement or no custody/involvement.  Most of the time we don't see either here, often if the courts are involved they make it a blend between parents.

I understand your intent. It must be frustrating to sit there and watch me spin round and round. I think the all or nothing train of thought is hurting me, but I am worried about a lot of things regarding the future. I am trying not to worry too much, but it's hard. I don't know what she's capable of, but all the things I read on the internet about coparenting with a borderline or sociopath are awful.

This is the second time I've been involved with a pd woman, and let me tell you... .the first time almost destroyed me.

Some people are more cut out for this kind of stuff. I am a peaceful person. I just want to live my life in peace and with as little stress as possible for the time being. I have been through a lot already.

Thanks for your compassion foreverdad. I really wish I was more optimistic about the future. I think it's really holding me back.

[Grey Kitty]

It must be frustrating to sit there and watch me spin round and round.

Yeah, it can be frustrating or discouraging... .but I'm sure it is nothing compared to living inside it!

I think the all or nothing train of thought is hurting me

You said it. I believe you.

One thing I learned from a meditation teacher was to notice myself going back onto some sort of thought obsessively... .and when I do it, say to my mind: "Thank you for sharing that. You may go now."  (And then go back to focusing on my breathing)

This is the second time I've been involved with a pd woman, and let me tell you... .the first time almost destroyed me.

There is an encouraging way to look at this, statement too... .you DID survive it the last time!

[catnap]

Her dog died under mysterious circumstances--be careful with your dog.  It might be a ploy for sympathy, but she has the potential of being very dangerous.  

She has her group of negative advocates which are feeding her feelings to treat you badly.  I find it interesting that they are all about CS (money) and no mention of the child needing a father.

I do strongly believe she seems receptive to keep you engaged with her on some level.  

Glad you are getting the protective order.  

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

My apologies stoic, I misunderstood.  

When I read this: So going the protective order route, could've have been damaging, as I don't want to be in the CS system. Period. It's slavery.

I apparently stopped reading after the bolded part.