The price of pretending to have as much power as your childhood abuser

[Depression = 72% of members]

About a month ago someone suggested that I make a separate post about a subject that came up in the last thread I wrote, because it might be potentially helpful to some. It took a long time because I’ve been more than a little preoccupied with other stuff lately but here goes.

It goes without saying that when children are abused they often tend to develop all kinds of coping mechanisms that can be maladaptive in all kinds of different ways.

I think there are at least two very common types victims (or rather: two common approaches to one’s own victim status):

A. The ones that see themselves as victims. Pros: they don’t feel at fault for the abuse. Cons: they perceive all the power as being in the hands of the persecutor and that leaves them feeling helpless (and abandoned, in the case of children).

B. The ones that don’t see themselves as victims. Pros: 1. It leaves them with a sense of power [sometimes imaginary], 2. It enables them to continue seeing their persecutor in a positive light (especially important for children). Cons: 1. They blame themselves for the abuse (and often develop a tendency to later blame themselves for everything), 2. They become very confused about the meaning of power, responsibility and blame and this can mess up their relationships in a number of ways.

Both approaches often leave the victim stuck in place. The type A victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll feel powerless and unable to change anything, and the type B victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll be in denial of it.

Both approaches can also have a devastating effect later in life, but this thread is mostly about the type B victim and the ways in which he can continuously fall into the role of victim while being completely oblivious of it.

As for examples…I have to admit… I don’t really have what it takes right now to go into all the gory details that I went into last time, so to sum it up:

One time I was being sexually harassed by an employer and rather than do the mature thing and leave that job right away and report him, I instead managed to convince myself that I wasn’t really being harassed and gave myself a false sense of control by convincing myself that I “really wanted it” (only to find out that I really didn’t but was too afraid of saying no).

As it turned out, this was an adaptation I’d learned from my mother. For many years I’d managed to convince myself that there was no abuse and actually believed that I had as much power in the relationship as she had.

Looking back, I’m realizing now that she’d actually put quite a bit of effort into convincing me that we were on equal footing, as far as the power distribution went. On a conscious level she might have thought that she was empowering me by doing so but in practice it was also an excellent way of making sure I’d remain oblivious of the abuse.

In the book “The Emotional Incest Syndrome”, Dr. Patricia Love writes about how, in the normal family setting, parents and children are never on equal footing and the parent child relationship (unlike every other relationship out there) is meant to be a one-way street. It was shocking at first for me to read this because it somehow didn’t seem “fair”.

One extreme example that comes to mind is like when I was about 12, 13 and 14 and my mother and I did sexually inappropriate things with each other, somehow it didn’t seem “fair” to think of that as something bad she did to me, after all; we both played a part in it. in theory you’d think that that would mean for me that we were “both to blame” but in practice I took it a step further and ended up taking all the blame on myself, in order to completely clear my mother’s name.

It took me a long, long time to understand about adult power and adult responsibility because somehow I’d always thought that I’d always had adult power and adult responsibility of my own. From the time I was a child my mother told me that we were equal “partners” and would confide in me about all her secrets, rant about the difficulties of her day and sometimes even consult with me about major decisions like where to move. Later, in my teens, when she started having back problems, she told me that I was “the strong one” (“empowering” me even more) and thus it became my responsibility to run all the errands. Even though talking assertively to bureaucrats and social workers on the phone doesn’t require any physical effort, somehow that became my responsibility too. It was around this time that any time I’d get angry or impatient with her, she’d tell me that I was being “abusive” and that she was “afraid of me” (admittedly I did start having fits of rage a few years later but at the time it was still within the normal range of anger or impatience).

Those sentences: “you’re the strong one”, “you’re abusing me”, “I’m afraid of you” and “help me, I need you!” all gave me a sense of power (which was probably one of the main reasons I accepted them instead of seeing through them) mixed with a sense of guilt and obligation. In my mind I thought I was the strong one, the one with all the power in the relationship… but in practice, it meant that every time my mother ordered me to do anything for her; I’d go running. She could be as snarky, b*tchy and demanding about it as she wanted to be and scream at me to do it faster or more efficiently… and I’d apologize profusely and hurriedly try to do a better job of it. On the other hand, if ever we were late for an appointment because she was taking too much time and I’d tell her to hurry with the slightest hint of impatience in my voice – she’d tell me that I was abusing her and she was afraid of me and rant and scream at me that she wasn’t willing to put up with “the same” kind of treatment she always got from her father and ex-husband etc’. What all of this meant was… I ended up being subservient, submissive, afraid of raising my voice or talking back to her… all the while thinking that I was the one in power.

A friend once told me that she once heard that “Victim” is actually the most powerful of the three roles in the drama triangle.  I have to admit that I don’t really know enough and haven’t read enough about the subject to know whether that’s true or not, but what I can say (at least from my own experience) is that sometimes we can deceive ourselves into believing that we’re “Rescuers” or “Persecutors” or even “Rescuers + Persecutors” in a desperate attempt to not feel like victims… and somehow end up being victims anyway, even [and especially] while refusing to see it.


Anyways… anyone else ever notice experiences like that with their families? And other people later on in life?

[justnothing]

About a month ago someone suggested that I make a separate post about a subject that came up in the last thread I wrote, because it might be potentially helpful to some. It took a long time because I’ve been more than a little preoccupied with other stuff lately but here goes.

It goes without saying that when children are abused they often tend to develop all kinds of coping mechanisms that can be maladaptive in all kinds of different ways.

I think there are at least two very common types victims (or rather: two common approaches to one’s own victim status):

A. The ones that see themselves as victims. Pros: they don’t feel at fault for the abuse. Cons: they perceive all the power as being in the hands of the persecutor and that leaves them feeling helpless (and abandoned, in the case of children).

B. The ones that don’t see themselves as victims. Pros: 1. It leaves them with a sense of power [sometimes imaginary], 2. It enables them to continue seeing their persecutor in a positive light (especially important for children). Cons: 1. They blame themselves for the abuse (and often develop a tendency to later blame themselves for everything), 2. They become very confused about the meaning of power, responsibility and blame and this can mess up their relationships in a number of ways.

Both approaches often leave the victim stuck in place. The type A victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll feel powerless and unable to change anything, and the type B victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll be in denial of it.

Both approaches can also have a devastating effect later in life, but this thread is mostly about the type B victim and the ways in which he can continuously fall into the role of victim while being completely oblivious of it.

As for examples…I have to admit… I don’t really have what it takes right now to go into all the gory details that I went into last time, so to sum it up:

One time I was being sexually harassed by an employer and rather than do the mature thing and leave that job right away and report him, I instead managed to convince myself that I wasn’t really being harassed and gave myself a false sense of control by convincing myself that I “really wanted it” (only to find out that I really didn’t but was too afraid of saying no).

As it turned out, this was an adaptation I’d learned from my mother. For many years I’d managed to convince myself that there was no abuse and actually believed that I had as much power in the relationship as she had.

Looking back, I’m realizing now that she’d actually put quite a bit of effort into convincing me that we were on equal footing, as far as the power distribution went. On a conscious level she might have thought that she was empowering me by doing so but in practice it was also an excellent way of making sure I’d remain oblivious of the abuse.

In the book “The Emotional Incest Syndrome”, Dr. Patricia Love writes about how, in the normal family setting, parents and children are never on equal footing and the parent child relationship (unlike every other relationship out there) is meant to be a one-way street. It was shocking at first for me to read this because it somehow didn’t seem “fair”.

One extreme example that comes to mind is like when I was about 12, 13 and 14 and my mother and I did sexually inappropriate things with each other, somehow it didn’t seem “fair” to think of that as something bad she did to me, after all; we both played a part in it. in theory you’d think that that would mean for me that we were “both to blame” but in practice I took it a step further and ended up taking all the blame on myself, in order to completely clear my mother’s name.

It took me a long, long time to understand about adult power and adult responsibility because somehow I’d always thought that I’d always had adult power and adult responsibility of my own. From the time I was a child my mother told me that we were equal “partners” and would confide in me about all her secrets, rant about the difficulties of her day and sometimes even consult with me about major decisions like where to move. Later, in my teens, when she started having back problems, she told me that I was “the strong one” (“empowering” me even more) and thus it became my responsibility to run all the errands. Even though talking assertively to bureaucrats and social workers on the phone doesn’t require any physical effort, somehow that became my responsibility too. It was around this time that any time I’d get angry or impatient with her, she’d tell me that I was being “abusive” and that she was “afraid of me” (admittedly I did start having fits of rage a few years later but at the time it was still within the normal range of anger or impatience).

Those sentences: “you’re the strong one”, “you’re abusing me”, “I’m afraid of you” and “help me, I need you!” all gave me a sense of power (which was probably one of the main reasons I accepted them instead of seeing through them) mixed with a sense of guilt and obligation. In my mind I thought I was the strong one, the one with all the power in the relationship… but in practice, it meant that every time my mother ordered me to do anything for her; I’d go running. She could be as snarky, b*tchy and demanding about it as she wanted to be and scream at me to do it faster or more efficiently… and I’d apologize profusely and hurriedly try to do a better job of it. On the other hand, if ever we were late for an appointment because she was taking too much time and I’d tell her to hurry with the slightest hint of impatience in my voice – she’d tell me that I was abusing her and she was afraid of me and rant and scream at me that she wasn’t willing to put up with “the same” kind of treatment she always got from her father and ex-husband etc’. What all of this meant was… I ended up being subservient, submissive, afraid of raising my voice or talking back to her… all the while thinking that I was the one in power.

A friend once told me that she once heard that “Victim” is actually the most powerful of the three roles in the drama triangle.  I have to admit that I don’t really know enough and haven’t read enough about the subject to know whether that’s true or not, but what I can say (at least from my own experience) is that sometimes we can deceive ourselves into believing that we’re “Rescuers” or “Persecutors” or even “Rescuers + Persecutors” in a desperate attempt to not feel like victims… and somehow end up being victims anyway, even [and especially] while refusing to see it.


Anyways… anyone else ever notice experiences like that with their families? And other people later on in life?

[Kwamina]

Hi justnothing

Thanks for starting this thread! You have been the victim of both covert and overt incest and I am very sorry your mother put you through this. From your post it becomes clear that you've come a long way and have been able to reevaluate your experiences and your own behavioral patterns. There's definitely a significant imbalance in the power relationship between a parent and a child.

One time I was being sexually harassed by an employer and rather than do the mature thing and leave that job right away and report him, I instead managed to convince myself that I wasn’t really being harassed and gave myself a false sense of control by convincing myself that I “really wanted it” (only to find out that I really didn’t but was too afraid of saying no).

As it turned out, this was an adaptation I’d learned from my mother. For many years I’d managed to convince myself that there was no abuse and actually believed that I had as much power in the relationship as she had.

I find the point your make here very interesting as I believe it's related to 'reality acceptance'. The reality of what you were experiencing with your employer was conflicting with how you perceived yourself or wanted to perceive yourself. So to solve this conflict, you altered your perception of what was going on.

You directly link this behavior to how your mother treated you. Looking at how you describe how she treated you, I too believe there's a strong link here. Step 5 of the survivor's guide for adults who suffered childhood abuse, is 'I accept that I was powerless over my abusers' actions which holds THEM responsible'. Accepting that you're powerless can be quite difficult because it means acknowledging that you were indeed abused and that you can't control everything. This isn't an easy thing to do but I feel like you've definitely come a long way in your healing Getting out of denial and accepting reality can be quite scary and overwhelming but is absolutely necessary to start the healing process. Because how can you heal anything if you don't even acknowledge that something abusive happened. If you don't acknowledge it, it's just like it didn't happen so then there's nothing to heal. Unfortunately beneath the surface these things often still have a hold on us and paradoxically by denying the reality of the abuse, we are in a way actually giving the abuse and abuser more power over us then would be the case if we would be able to confront reality as it is. Even though it might not always feel so, the steps you're taking right now are actually very empowering And this time it's real empowerment!

[Kwamina]

Um… incidentally… rather than just modifying, how does one delete an accidental double post?

Yeah I've had some accidental double posts too but that's just the way it is  I really like your emoticon here so why don't we just leave this double post right where it is

[justnothing]

Thanks a lot Kwamina I think you summed it up quite well and made some good points. I didn’t realize ‘reality acceptance’ was a term but I can see how it would be useful for a lot of different situations. Human beings have a funny way of refusing to believe whatever clashes with their core beliefs.

Thanks for reminding me about step 5 btw, it has been a while since I read the survivors guide and forgot about that step. I think the first few times I read it I didn’t realizes its significance yet. I’m only now realizing that it’s a way of gaining power rather than “giving it up”, like you pointed out.  

Yeah I've had some accidental double posts too but that's just the way it is  I really like your emoticon here so why don't we just leave this double post right where it is

Hehe… okay then…

[Kwamina]

I didn’t realize ‘reality acceptance’ was a term but I can see how it would be useful for a lot of different situations. Human beings have a funny way of refusing to believe whatever clashes with their core beliefs.

Here's some more about 'reality acceptance':

Reality acceptance skills are the skills that you need when really painful events happen in your life. And you can't change the painful event.  You can't solve it. You can't make it go away. And, you can't turn it into a positive.  It's a negative that just won't become a positive.  And you're miserable.

When that happens, practice reality acceptance.

So what are you going to practice? First, you're going to practice accepting radically. You're going to want to accept that the event has actually happened. You're going to need to accept that there's a cause. It happened for some reason.  You may not know what the reason is, but there is a reason.

And, you're going to want to accept that you can move through it.  You can develop a life that has satisfaction, meaning and worth in it. Even with this painful event in your life.

In order to do that, you're going to have to turn your mind over and over and over.  When you reach the fork in the road, with pain in the middle of it, turn your mind to acceptance. Away from rejection.

And practice willingness. Practicing willingness means recognizing that you are part of life, that you are connected to things. But it's more than that. It's not just recognizing that you're part of life but it's actually agreeing to be part of life.

These are the skills of reality acceptance.

Such a cute little emoticon

[Ziggiddy]

Man that was an interesting read, justnothing.

You wrote with clarity and self honesty and I resonated with a lot of your mixed feelings.

I have read an amazing book on some of the paradoxes that are set up in childhood called 'The Tao of Fully Feeling.'

In one of the chapters he discusses ambivalence and how children especially have a low tolerance for it.

What happens is that 2 contrasting feelings are sensed simultaneously and it is very difficult to tolerate them so we adjust our thinking to fit one or the other of them into our schema.

So like Kwamina said, your situation with your employer was intolerable to the sense of self that you had and in order to find a line, you adjusted your thinking and took responsibility for it.

You mentioned maturity but I don't think it's that - sometimes a whole boatload of other things are responsible for it. i don't think you lacked maturity as much as knowledge that you could really approach it in another way which wouldn't bring further harm - maybe in the form of escalation or job loss or whatever the motivation was for you to stay in an unpleasant situation.

People who are willing to abuse like that are very good at sensing who will tolerate it.

Children who have been tampered with sexually have a very hard time of placing blame because at times they may have had feelings of enjoyment or pleasure - either in the act or in the feeling of being wanted or cared for or rewarded for participation.

To clarify that, any sexual act that is deemed consensual relies on these things: that the participants are both adult enough to understand what the act means mature enough to be able to decide if they want to participate and completely willing to be part of it. You can possibly see that you were not mature enough to be able to do all those things and therefore what happened to you was not with adult express consent.

This means it was abuse.

I try and explain this concept to people who sincerely believe that if they didn't stop it or scream or fight, that means they consented. No! Your yes has to be 100% yes with eagerness and willingness or it is not with consent.

Power balance and reasoning are  semantics. Ways to survive what is an awful thing. Your mother should NEVER have done inappropriate things with you. NEVER! She is your parent! It simply is not your fault in any way. Same with your employer.

Is it possible that you had a repeat of your previous experience that you justified in order to feel some semblance of control?

As far as some of your earlier comments go I found your characterisation of your r/s with your mother very interesting.

It clarified some things for me as well.

I have a hard time accepting what I can intellectually describe as abuse into my heart. Or rather, I find it impossible to think of her only as an abuser as there were times when she was incredibly kind to me.

She treated me as her child, her mother, her best friend and her husband.

And I enjoyed the influence I had over her.

And that is the ambivalence I can't tolerate! if I knew what the source of her actions were, the motivation for the good things I might better understand the awful things.

[justnothing]

Thanks for the reply and sorry it took a while to reply back, been kinda preoccupied in the past few days.

I agree about people like that being good at sensing who would tolerate it. In that guys case he didn’t start with the harassment from day one but rather took a few days to test my reactions to him being gradually more and more inappropriate. Ironically, I can say that at least one good thing came out of it; I learned for the first time about the importance of having boundaries.

Is it possible that you had a repeat of your previous experience that you justified in order to feel some semblance of control?

Well, it’s funny but before that experience with that guy I’d always had two weird concepts in my mind: I always felt that if someone was attracted to me that meant that A) I owed him something and B) I had power over him. I think both of these ideas came from the illusions of power and obligation I had with my mother. Up to that point they had given me both incentive to enter relationships (“he’s attracted to me and says he likes me so I ought to give him a shot”) and a sense of security while I was in them (“he’s not going to abuse me, I’m the one in control!”). They both came crashing down after that experience with him though, which was the main reason why I pretty much went celibate for the next 4.5 years (no more incentive and no sense of security).

I have a hard time accepting what I can intellectually describe as abuse into my heart. Or rather, I find it impossible to think of her only as an abuser as there were times when she was incredibly kind to me.

She treated me as her child, her mother, her best friend and her husband.

And I enjoyed the influence I had over her.

And that is the ambivalence I can't tolerate! if I knew what the source of her actions were, the motivation for the good things I might better understand the awful things.

I know exactly what you mean. I was my mother’s child, mother, best friend and husband too and when she died it kind of felt as if I’d lost someone who was all of those to me, even though I’d spent years trying to distance myself and overcome the enmeshment. And yes, it’s an extremely ambivalent mix between good and bad.

I think part of the problem (when it comes to being able to make sense of it all) is the black and white thinking, kind of like what you mentioned at the start of your post.

Back when I joined this site, one of my main reasons for doing so was the extreme ambivalence. Before she died I had devaluated her, right after she died I idealized her… a few months after she died, something triggered me and all of a sudden I found myself caught between the two. Whenever the anger tried to have its’ say, it would get overrun by guilt… and whenever the guilt tried to have its’ say, it would get overrun by anger (both at her for what she did but even more so at myself for having allowed the abuse to happen just for the sake of “being under the illusion of being loved”).

Nowadays (in part thanks to all the processing I got to do here) I’ve come to accept that she really did love me and also that she really did abuse me. The love was in many ways conditional, twisted, narcissistic and seriously lacking… but in her own unhealthy way she did love me. The abuse wasn’t intentional and, to be quite frank, if I hadn’t been lucky enough to get all the therapy I got and if I had been in her shoes, working two jobs while raising a child alone… I actually don’t think I’d have been able to do as good a job as she did at raising me (and don’t think coming to acknowledge this part was even remotely easy) but… the abuse was still abuse.

The thing about black and white thinking is that it makes life so much easier and, in many ways, far less upsetting. Take the idea that love and abuse can never go hand in hand for example, it helps take away so much emotional turmoil. If the person we love isn’t abusing us, then we don’t have to leave them. If the person abusing us doesn’t love us, then we don’t have to give a thought to what they’ll feel if we leave and… just leave. Combine the two scenarios together though and you’re caught between your sense of loyalty to someone you love (and if you were raised on conditional love that means you were brought up with the idea that being loved means “owing” something to the person who loves you) and your loyalty to yourself... .and you’ll hate yourself whichever choice you make. And if you were raised with the illusion of power/responsibility over your abuser, that makes it even less clear which choice would be the right one because it leaves you feeling “equally responsible” for them and for yourself.

Sorry about the long winded response btw, it was just part of what came to mind when you wrote:

And that is the ambivalence I can't tolerate! if I knew what the source of her actions were, the motivation for the good things I might better understand the awful things.

Maybe it’ll be easier to think of her as being several people all in one… because to a great extent that may be the case.

You know, despite everything, I rarely ever felt like I had difficulty understanding my mother or relating to her. For that matter, throughout most of my life she was the only person I felt like I could really relate to. Even when I came to acknowledge the abuse and even when I felt like I hated her, I still felt like I could relate to her and understand where she was coming from and what she was feeling. And you know what? That only made it all the more painful.

[Ziggiddy]

I always felt that if someone was attracted to me that meant that A) I owed him something and B) I had power over him. I think both of these ideas came from the illusions of power and obligation I had with my mother. Up to that point they had given me both incentive to enter relationships (“he’s attracted to me and says he likes me so I ought to give him a shot”) and a sense of security while I was in them (“he’s not going to abuse me, I’m the one in control!”).

Good grief  - you know I could have written that. Exactly the same.

I’ve come to accept that she really did love me and also that she really did abuse me. The love was in many ways conditional, twisted, narcissistic and seriously lacking… but in her own unhealthy way she did love me. The abuse wasn’t intentional and,  but… the abuse was still abuse.

That was so insightful. I'm interested in the idea of the abuse not being intentional.

That narrows the parameters somewhat.

I'm not sure what to make of it though. I mean if I were to flog my child I would feel terrible about it - does that make it abuse? And because my mother feels as though she did the right thing by flogging me, does that mean it wasn't abuse? At least in her eyes. Is that what you mean by unintentional? That they don't see it as behaving abusively?

I'm also curious about your definition of love.

To be honest I don't know how to define love. It makes me incredibly sad. I guess I know a lot more about what love isn't than what it is.

The thing about black and white thinking is that it makes life so much easier and, in many ways, far less upsetting. Take the idea that love and abuse can never go hand in hand for example, it helps take away so much emotional turmoil. If the person we love isn’t abusing us, then we don’t have to leave them. If the person abusing us doesn’t love us, then we don’t have to give a thought to what they’ll feel if we leave and… just leave. Combine the two scenarios together though and you’re caught between your sense of loyalty to someone you love (and if you were raised on conditional love that means you were brought up with the idea that being loved means “owing” something to the person who loves you) and your loyalty to yourself... .and you’ll hate yourself whichever choice you make. And if you were raised with the illusion of power/responsibility over your abuser, that makes it even less clear which choice would be the right one because it leaves you feeling “equally responsible” for them and for yourself.

Ok lightbulbs flashing.

Because my FOO all engage in b/w thinking it seems clear to me that I am not the same. This^ is making me think though that it is relative (pardon the pun)

I DO think like this! WOW I do engage in b/w thinking but I never classed it as that.

This is on the money and helps me no end. thank you.

You know, despite everything, I rarely ever felt like I had difficulty understanding my mother or relating to her. For that matter, throughout most of my life she was the only person I felt like I could really relate to. Even when I came to acknowledge the abuse and even when I felt like I hated her, I still felt like I could relate to her and understand where she was coming from and what she was feeling. And you know what? That only made it all the more painful.

I can relate to that. If you lacked empathy/insight or didn't relate it would be a whole heap easier. That shows your own emotional strength. It's a hard thing to do. You should be applauded for it

[justnothing]

That was so insightful. I'm interested in the idea of the abuse not being intentional.

That narrows the parameters somewhat.

I'm not sure what to make of it though. I mean if I were to flog my child I would feel terrible about it - does that make it abuse? And because my mother feels as though she did the right thing by flogging me, does that mean it wasn't abuse? At least in her eyes. Is that what you mean by unintentional? That they don't see it as behaving abusively?

Um, sorry if I wasn’t clear in the way I put it earlier. The behavior itself (flogging, beating up, etc’) is abuse, regardless of if the parent considers it abuse or not and even regardless of if he or she is fully aware of the fact that what they’re doing is abuse. That being said, I still give my mother some credit for not being consciously aware of the abuse and I don’t think she’d have ever done any of it if she were.

When I was little, the authorities tried for a while to take me away from her because there was some suspicion that she was sexually abusing me (mind you, she hadn’t done anything overt, that I can remember). For many years after that she was always enraged at the very thought that anyone would think that she would ever hurt or abuse me in any way… and then, many years later, when I was in my 20’s, she started asking me if I thought there was any truth to it. Over the years she must have asked me several dozen times: “Did I abuse you?” (sometimes even accompanied by “are you sure?” and “come on, you can tell me, I want to know!”) and even when I wanted to scream “yes” at her, my answer was always “no”. Part of it was because I never felt ready or willing to accept an apology, part of it was because I didn’t even want to go into it with her, a big part of it was because I didn’t want to upset her and part of it was because I figured that even if I did tell her the truth and even if she was capable of handling it OK, shedding off her denial and expressing genuine remorse… it would only last for a moment, or an hour, or a day, or something… and then she’d sink back into a state of denial or anger or anger and denial or something… and then it would be out in the open, on the surface, but still in denial-land under the surface and I was SO not willing to deal with what that would have been like.

All that being said, I still acknowledge and appreciate that at least one (or maybe more) part of her would have never hurt me, if it were up to it, and even tried several times to make things right. It doesn’t make things right for the rest of her but it does make it right for that part (or those parts) of her.

Incidentally, sorry if this doesn’t clearly answer your question. By “unintentional” I meant unaware, at the time, that it was abuse, for a number of possible different reasons. Like in the example you gave of a mother that thinks she’s just “disciplining” her child… or like an emotional abuser who grew up in a completely emotionally abusive setting and thinks it’s “just the way people normally interact with each other”. Or like my mother who managed to convince herself and me that showing me porn was just a good way of giving me proper sex education and that… well… several other things were somehow perfectly harmless and even for my own good.

I'm also curious about your definition of love.

To be honest I don't know how to define love. It makes me incredibly sad. I guess I know a lot more about what love isn't than what it is.

Back when I first learned about the BPD (mine, that is) two of the questions that bothered me the most, for the first year or two, was whether what I’d always assumed were love and empathy were, in fact, “real love” and “real empathy”. I did some reading, a lot of self-exploring, consulted several times with my therapist about it and even tried observing other people, both healthy and with several different disorders, to try and figure it out. To make a long story short, I ended up finding out that the real question that was bothering me wasn’t so much “can I really feel love and empathy?” but rather “are they ‘good enough’?”. As it turned out, the answer to the first question is “yes” and the answer to the second one is “NO”.

When it came to empathy, that turned out to be kind of complex on a technical level, because there are different types (cognitive, emotional and compassionate) and while one can be impaired the others don’t have to be or vise versa. As for love, it turned out that “true love” is pretty much a Hollywood concept and that the different manifestations of “true love” we’re shown on screen are based on whatever the writer thought would best play into the audiences fantasies. That being said, there IS such a thing as healthy love and whether or not a person can feel and display healthy love depends basically on whether or not that person is healthy. By the same token, I think that everything else about love and the way it displays itself depends on the whole personality of the individual… so I guess you could say that there are as many different types of love out there as there are people (except that that too is an understatement because each individual feels several different forms of love, like for his child vs. for his spouse vs. his friends and even his favorite movies, etc’).

The thing is, because we are all sold on an idea of ideal love (which can sometimes be similar to healthy love but not always) and because we start off, as babies, assuming that love is somehow related to our own needs (“my tummy hurts, mommy’s here and rocking me but she’s not fixing the problem! She doesn’t love me! I must not be lovable!”) love from unhealthy people can be very confusing. For example, I know now that my mother loved me… but she didn’t have any empathy towards me. The way this manifested itself was that on the one hand she would sometimes say things that she really didn’t need to (if she hadn’t cared and only wanted to suppress me that is) like “I want you have self-confidence and learn to stand up for yourself, even if it means standing up to me” and even “you need to be free of me” (even if she’d later on sabotage my attempts to follow her advice)… and on the other hand she was completely oblivious of me, who I was, what I was going through and what I needed. Once, when I was in my early 20’s, I was chatting with her one day about my childhood and about all the problems I had with my teacher and all the kids who never wanted to be friends with me… and to my utter dismay she said “oh wow, I never knew that, I always assumed you were a happy well-adjusted child!”. So yeah… we assume that the idea of love without empathy is ridiculous… but that’s only because love without empathy in healthy people is ridiculous because it would never happen in a healthy person. A healthy person would have empathy and awareness and consistency and energy and… lots and lots of other things that we somehow assume mean love… but really all that they really mean is health.

The first time I ever got to spend time with and get to know my uncle was around the time of my mother’s funeral. At the time I made a point of keeping calm and holding myself together, for the funeral’s sake. He and I exchanged numbers and skype IDs and started talking regularly and bonding. One day, a few weeks later, the full force of the grief suddenly hit me and I had a meltdown. I called up my uncle and started crying to him on the phone that I “wanted my mother back”. This was the first time my uncle had ever seen me in hysteria-mode and literally didn’t know what to say. He said over and over again that he loved me but other than that he fumbled with his words and wasn’t able to come up with a single “useful” thing to say. At that moment several things struck me at once: A) my uncle came from a different world, where people generally didn’t have meltdowns, and didn’t know what to say because he wasn’t used to having to deal with these kinds of situations, B) I’d better scratch him of my list of potential people to call during a meltdown and - C) he was really being sincere when he said he loved me [D)] if this incident had happened in the past I might have assumed that him not knowing what to say meant that ‘he didn’t really love me’, but it didn’t – all it meant was that he didn’t know what to say.

Anyway, sorry about the long spiel, that was just my take on the whole love issue. As for “not good enough” I meant either for my mother (for whom I don’t think anything would have ever been good enough) and for a potential child (which I honestly don’t think I’d be competent enough to raise properly, love or no love) and for other people in general (whose expectations and needs I don’t really think I’d be able to live up to, love or no love). So I guess you could say that I don’t think you need to be sad about not knowing exactly how to define love because the real question is more like “what does it take for a relationship to be healthy, mutually satisfying and non-detrimental to either side?”

Ok lightbulbs flashing.

Because my FOO all engage in b/w thinking it seems clear to me that I am not the same. This^ is making me think though that it is relative (pardon the pun)

I DO think like this! WOW I do engage in b/w thinking but I never classed it as that.

This is on the money and helps me no end. thank you.

Hehe, well b/w thinking is relative, just like every other type of thinking. You can take comfort in the fact that everybody out there has used this as a coping mechanism, at least as a baby, and I don’t think it ever leaves anyone’s toolbox of potential-coping mechanisms, even if/when they grow into fully mature, healthy people. So don’t think of it as something that’s necessarily always bad or always a sign of being disordered etc’ because, after all, that would be b/w thinking  .

Anyways, I’m glad you find it helpful.

I can relate to that. If you lacked empathy/insight or didn't relate it would be a whole heap easier. That shows your own emotional strength. It's a hard thing to do. You should be applauded for it

Thank you. After my mother died I really wished that I could have done more, like force myself to hug her or hang out with her when she asked me to, even if it was too triggering for me. But I suppose we can only ever do as much as we can do, whether it’s ‘good enough’ or not.

[polly87]

Hi all,

Thanks justnothing for opening this topic. It's interesting to consider which type of 'victim' I would call myself... .Intellectually, I would say that in my case, all power was in the hands of the abuser (I was sexually abused by my uBPDm). Intellectually, I know that I was not at fault. This does indeed make me feel helpless and powerless up until this moment.

... .and therefore, I emotionally choose not to see myself als a victim. This means that I blame myself for the abuse (as well as for everything that can and does go wrong in my daily life). Yes, I am confused about blame and responsibility and yes, this does screw up the relationship between me and my partner.

I find that I'm not ready to accept the fact that I was not to blame for the abuse. This is not because I want to see the abuser in a positive light in any way. I do not believe she loved me. (Incidentally, I have never in my life told her I loved her.) I don't believe you can love someone whom you abuse in so many ways. I do believe she needed me for her own needs: I was her surrogate partner, someone she confided in, someone to talk to about her grown-up problems.

As for a definition of love... .from the day I met my partner I felt love is wanting to protect the other against all evil, making them feel better and wanting to see them happy.

There could not be a greater contrast between this feeling and the evil that has been done to me in my youth.

Justnothing I also wonder what it takes for a relationship to be healthy. Sometimes I worry that the two people would have to be healthy (mentally, that is) to have a healthy relationship. I worry that I'm not good enough in this respect. It makes me sad to consider how long it will take me to become healthy.

My therapist said yesterday that it is uncommon for victims of abuse to feel excessive guilt. I didn't get the point of this at all. I think that when a victim still feels guilty, that is because she/he is still trying to come to terms with what happened (especially emotionally). I did not say so to her because I was stunned.

Ziggiddy and justnothing, it seems you both share ambivalent feelings about your mothers... .To a certain extent I also feel this way but most of all, I do not ever wish to see my mother again. When she was kind to me, it was only to prepare me for the next fight. Ambivalent feelings can be difficult but maybe it is a good thing that you both have positive memories of your mothers.

I wish you both strength to deal with the terrible things you have been through.

[Ziggiddy]

Hi polly

I was really touched by you wrote your true honest feeling there.

It's a horrible situation you were in and I am very very sorry to hear you were abused and sexually abused. By your own mother.

Also I am gobsmacked at what your therapist said to you about guilt being uncommon! because it IS common. Very very common. In fact universal.

it is  common for survivors to feel incredibly high and unjustified feelings of guilt.

That you continue to feel responsible for everything that goes wrong in your daily life is also a product of a mum who abused you. One of the hardest things we all have to learn is how to divide up what we were actually responsible for and what they were responsible for.

And one of the things we are not responsible for is being abused.

Part of acknowledging the terrible state of affairs of being abused as a kid is knowing that it was NOT YOUR FAULT. At all. Not even a little.

This is much much harder for victims of incest  abuse

If you haven't had a look at it, I really recommend that you check out the Survivor's Guide over to the right here ---->

And please polly, I can't recommend enough that you get a therapist who is fully compassionate and can validate fully your experience so you can learn what you went through was real, was abuse and was not at all your fault. I guess maybe there's a chance that s/he made a miscommunication but on such a critical point it is right to be clear.

On your point about ambivalence - I had to smile. Yes that is exactly how I fee! But I'll take that over the crippling fear that it used to be!

If you don't want to see your mother then good for you! If I were deeply honest I don't want to see mine either but I am weak and vulnerable and have been enmeshed for so long that I have to separate in a way that doesn't make me feel like I wanna die.

Best wishes to you too polly.

Peace

Ziggiddy

And while I am recommending stuff

[polly87]

Thanks Ziggiddy. I'm still not quite sure what my therapist meant by that remark... .she literally said that it wasn't common for victims of abuse to feel excessive guilt after they've been told by their therapist that they aren't guilty. The victims, she said, are usually very happy to accept the view that they aren't / weren't to blame. This still puzzles me. I don't understand how you can do away with 27 years of guilt just because your therapist says so. I will discuss this issue with her in the next session. Maybe I've gotten too sensitive over the years and I've been sensing she doesn't find my feelings 'normal' and this might be why I'm not entirely comfortable with her just yet. It'll go on my list of things to talk about.

I've looked at the Survivor's guide and downloaded the Survivor to Thriver book and I find it very useful. I'm at the point where the book recommends to write down all memories about the abuse and I find I'm not able to do this. I'm scared out of my wits to see it all written down and to have to remember it all in the first place. I'm going to have to find some way to do it anyway 'cause I think it'll be a great step in my progress. Maybe it'll help to reduce the feelings of guilt as well when I see written down how I did not consent to the abuse in any way.

I understand and respect your feelings toward your mother. It takes courage to make either decision, whether it is to continue seeing her or not. I just really hope you don't suffer much (I would say "don't suffer at all" but that'd be unrealistic) from your relationship with your mother right now.

Love,

polly

[Ziggiddy]

Look it is really not my place to decide what your therapist meant but it is alarming to me that she thinks you should be cured of guilt feelings simply because she told you that you weren't responsible.

Yes I think we all feel a measure of relief to hear that but the ingraining of a lifetime's conditioning to believe it was our own fault we were abused is not overcome by simply saying it was not your fault. It takes many many repetitions to alter that brain function - a fact I will attest to and I know Harri struggles with too. Many do, in fact.

When you are a child, the hardware in your brain is just being formed and you simply do not have the capacity to decode the truth.

Our very survival survival is wrapped up in accepting that we are to blame. So as you have been subject to that condition as well as no doubt your mother disclaiming all fault which is standard operating procedure for BPD sufferers. It would have been impossible for you to believe anything else.

The goal of your therapist would be to create safety for you - an environment where you are not at fault and certainly not one where you feel you are being oversensitive. Therapists - the good ones validate all of your feelings and this helps you learn to do that yourself. be ok with finding one who fits you - you do not have to fit them. It is your very heart and soul in their hands so it is worth finding the right one.

As your cognitive powers grow, you become better able to discern for yourself what is real and what is conditioning. She should teach you and she should model this for you. A therapist reparents us and teaches us to reparent ourselves.

As far as writing your experiences down - I do believe it is a wonderfully useful exercise - at the right time.

Right now, as you are in the discovery phase you need a lot of support to help you feel that you are ok and that what your mother did is not okay. You need time and space to do whatever it is you want to do. That is the right you are reclaiming and it takes time and patience. You may never have had that offered to you. If you are like me and many others, you had to respond quick smart, figure it out and act all right now before mum got mad and struck out at you somehow.

Polly write if you feel like it. Don't write if you don't feel like it. you have, in a very real sense been through a war and your wounds are deep, painful and debilitating. You have been in pain a long long while. Now is the time to care very lovingly for yourself. now is not the time to jump to anyone else's suggestions (even mine!) Your healing journey is your very own. Each step comes at the right time. you will feel it. I often find that when I am rushing it is when i get distressed. Trust your instincts.

As far as classical PTSD symptoms I don't know if you are aware - you probably are - that CPTSD is different than PTSD and doesn't necessarily present the same way.

For a very good rundown on CPTSD emotional flashback explanations and guidance I recommend having a look at Pete Walker's website. He is an excellent traumatologist and a very warm and compassionate person. I have been assisted no end by his work.

His material is available in article form via the website.

I appreciate your words about not suffering too much! I do have a tendency to martyr myself a bit which i would like to master. At this stage I am just working on being ok with all my feelings. it is really helpful. To stop being mad at myself for being mad at myself if you know what I mean!

[Ziggiddy]

By the way, it occurs to me whilst on topic I may have hijacked your post's thread somewhat, justnothing.

You made a very eloquent and concise point with these observations:

I think there are at least two very common types victims (or rather: two common approaches to one’s own victim status):

A. The ones that see themselves as victims. Pros: they don’t feel at fault for the abuse. Cons: they perceive all the power as being in the hands of the persecutor and that leaves them feeling helpless (and abandoned, in the case of children).

B. The ones that don’t see themselves as victims. Pros: 1. It leaves them with a sense of power [sometimes imaginary], 2. It enables them to continue seeing their persecutor in a positive light (especially important for children). Cons: 1. They blame themselves for the abuse (and often develop a tendency to later blame themselves for everything), 2. They become very confused about the meaning of power, responsibility and blame and this can mess up their relationships in a number of ways.

Both approaches often leave the victim stuck in place. The type A victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll feel powerless and unable to change anything, and the type B victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll be in denial of it.

Both approaches can also have a devastating effect later in life, but this thread is mostly about the type B victim and the ways in which he can continuously fall into the role of victim while being completely oblivious of it.

Anyways… anyone else ever notice experiences like that with their families? And other people later on in life?

Do you think it's possible for another category? Type C if you will: those who can perceive they were victims yet are unable to make the emotional leap to identifying themselves credibly as victims? Just a thought

Z

[justnothing]

I find that I'm not ready to accept the fact that I was not to blame for the abuse. This is not because I want to see the abuser in a positive light in any way. I do not believe she loved me. (Incidentally, I have never in my life told her I loved her.) I don't believe you can love someone whom you abuse in so many ways. I do believe she needed me for her own needs: I was her surrogate partner, someone she confided in, someone to talk to about her grown-up problems.

Yeah, I can totally understand not being able to let go easily of the self-blame. I think that one of the things about defense mechanisms is that before letting them go you need to have something to replace them with (something else to give the psyche a sense of security that is). Can you think of any way of not feeling helpless and at the same time not feel to blame?

As for a definition of love... .from the day I met my partner I felt love is wanting to protect the other against all evil, making them feel better and wanting to see them happy.

Sounds like a great definition to me . About the part of wanting to see them happy, the only thing I can think of adding to it is “even if you have nothing to gain from it”. My own mother seemed to want to see me happy but it depended to some extent on the “why” and “how”. For example, seeing me happy after spending time with a boyfriend or even a regular friend didn’t make her happy, to say the least.

Justnothing I also wonder what it takes for a relationship to be healthy. Sometimes I worry that the two people would have to be healthy (mentally, that is) to have a healthy relationship. I worry that I'm not good enough in this respect. It makes me sad to consider how long it will take me to become healthy.

I know what you mean… but then again, maybe being completely healthy isn’t entirely necessary so long as you learn and practice the rules of healthy relationships. This site is full of helpful articles and explanations along those lines.

My therapist said yesterday that it is uncommon for victims of abuse to feel excessive guilt. I didn't get the point of this at all. I think that when a victim still feels guilty, that is because she/he is still trying to come to terms with what happened (especially emotionally). I did not say so to her because I was stunned.

That is a very, very weird thing to say… like Ziggiddy said; it might have been a miscommunication. I’d understand if victims are happy to accept that it’s not their fault after a very, very long time in therapy… but I don’t see how that could happen overnight.

Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that she was talking about guilt [“I did something bad”] as opposed to shame [“I am bad”]? Afaik it’s extremely common for victims to carry shame with them for nearly their entire lives afterwards and it can cause a whole number of disorders.

Anyway, it’s good that you’re going to talk to her about it to clear things up. I know how scary it can be to face the possibility of being invalidated by a therapist twice in a row [my own therapist put her foot in her mouth in a major way a few times over the years…]… but it’s still better to clear things up. And like Ziggiddy says, worst case scenario, if it talking to her turns out to be pointless and needlessly frustrating, you can always try for another therapist.

I've looked at the Survivor's guide and downloaded the Survivor to Thriver book and I find it very useful. I'm at the point where the book recommends to write down all memories about the abuse and I find I'm not able to do this. I'm scared out of my wits to see it all written down and to have to remember it all in the first place. I'm going to have to find some way to do it anyway 'cause I think it'll be a great step in my progress. Maybe it'll help to reduce the feelings of guilt as well when I see written down how I did not consent to the abuse in any way.

That certainly sounds like a good way of facing what you went through and good luck with that. If at any point you feel like it’s too much to deal with it might help to consult your therapist on ways to make it easier. There are several different methods of self-soothing that might be helpful when trying to reconnect with traumatic memories.

I wish you both strength to deal with the terrible things you have been through.

Thank you polly87 I wish the same to you.

By the way, it occurs to me whilst on topic I may have hijacked your post's thread somewhat, justnothing.

You made a very eloquent and concise point with these observations:

I think there are at least two very common types victims (or rather: two common approaches to one’s own victim status):

A. The ones that see themselves as victims. Pros: they don’t feel at fault for the abuse. Cons: they perceive all the power as being in the hands of the persecutor and that leaves them feeling helpless (and abandoned, in the case of children).

B. The ones that don’t see themselves as victims. Pros: 1. It leaves them with a sense of power [sometimes imaginary], 2. It enables them to continue seeing their persecutor in a positive light (especially important for children). Cons: 1. They blame themselves for the abuse (and often develop a tendency to later blame themselves for everything), 2. They become very confused about the meaning of power, responsibility and blame and this can mess up their relationships in a number of ways.

Both approaches often leave the victim stuck in place. The type A victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll feel powerless and unable to change anything, and the type B victim won’t do anything to change his situation because he’ll be in denial of it.

Both approaches can also have a devastating effect later in life, but this thread is mostly about the type B victim and the ways in which he can continuously fall into the role of victim while being completely oblivious of it.

Anyways… anyone else ever notice experiences like that with their families? And other people later on in life?

Do you think it's possible for another category? Type C if you will: those who can perceive they were victims yet are unable to make the emotional leap to identifying themselves credibly as victims? Just a thought

Z

Thank you and no worries about hijacking the thread  I actually find it a lot easier to think and process better when going from topic to topic.

I think it’s quite possible that there are many other types of victims that I haven’t thought about, those just happen to be the two I’ve come up with so far.

As for those that can perceive themselves as victims but can’t make the emotional leap to identify themselves that way… I’d say those still classify as the type B victim because when I say “those that see themselves/don’t see themselves” I mean on an emotional level. It’s easy to know where the truth lies on an intellectual/conscious level but, unfortunately, being able to bring that knowledge to the emotional level is a whole other ball of wax…

[polly87]

Thanks Ziggiddy for pointing out what a good T should be like. Yesterday a good friend asked about my gut feeling when I first met her and I said "well I actually hoped I would get another T after the introduction by her"    On a more serious note, since that remark about feeling guilty for too long I've been doubting her ability to create a safe environment for me. I don't want to post-hijack justnothing's topic though!

Thanks for pointing out Pete Walker's website. I've taken a quick look and there's a lot of interesting information on there. Just scrolling through his articles I see eye-openers popping up all over the page. I don't know if you've read my reply I just posted on my own topic but I wasn't aware of the difference between PTSD and cPTSD... .I was told I have PTSD and I trusted the expert's view   I was desparate to start T so I didn't want to delay the process in any way (in the Netherlands you first have to get a diagnosis and a treatment plan to which you have to give your consent and only then you can start the actual sessions).

Justnothing I've struggled finding something with which to replace my old pattern of self-blame. Recently I've tried to pray when I blame myself or when I'm in some other sort of bad state and it works rather well . It's still difficult though and I feel there's a lot that I have to learn (which most other people, who were luckier, learned as a child).

I get what you mean about wanting to see those you love happy "even if you have nothing to gain from it". I meant that when I wrote it... .it's the difference between conditional and unconditional love, I think. If you want to control the way others are happy, it's conditional love. I don't call that love. To me, it's worse than not loving someone at all. Letting others live their lives as they please is such a beautiful (and difficult) thing. I don't mean to say that I don't wish I could control things at times... .I'll look up those articles about healthy relationships when I have the time and energy.

Self-soothing is in the top 3 of my challenges... .(I don't want to sound like I'm splitting or something but my T doesn't recommend any self-soothing strategies as she finds I have to think of them myself, so I get them from google or by trial and error   )

I hope you both have a nice weekend and I'll be back on here by Monday. (I have some DIY'ing to do... .which also happens to be a useful way of dealing with bottled-up anger.)

Love,

polly

[Pingo]

Wow, Justnothing, thank you for starting this thread!  I'm so glad I came across it today!  You have given me many things to ponder.  I recently commented on another thread about feeling empathy for my abusers.  You have shown me an alternate view of why I do this in this synopsis of the two types of victims. 

Thank you!

[justnothing]

Justnothing I've struggled finding something with which to replace my old pattern of self-blame. Recently I've tried to pray when I blame myself or when I'm in some other sort of bad state and it works rather well . It's still difficult though and I feel there's a lot that I have to learn (which most other people, who were luckier, learned as a child).

They do say that prayer can be a very useful coping mechanism for a lot of people, I’m happy to hear you’re finding it helpful against the self-blame. It’s quite understandable that it’d be difficult and would take a lot of time mind you, so don’t *blame* yourself for that  but I can totally understand [and relate to] the frustration of having to struggle with what most people acquire, without any effort, from before they even enter kindergarten…  

I get what you mean about wanting to see those you love happy "even if you have nothing to gain from it". I meant that when I wrote it... .it's the difference between conditional and unconditional love, I think. If you want to control the way others are happy, it's conditional love. I don't call that love. To me, it's worse than not loving someone at all. Letting others live their lives as they please is such a beautiful (and difficult) thing. I don't mean to say that I don't wish I could control things at times... .I'll look up those articles about healthy relationships when I have the time and energy.

Oh yeah, I did realize that you meant it when you wrote it, I just felt a need to point it out because it’s not always obvious to everyone.

Like you say, no love is far better than conditional love, conditional love is kind of like being in prison. Frankly, I think a big part of why I avoid relationships so much is because on some level I “learned” from my mother that love is conditional and so now that’s what expect people in general to want.

Self-soothing is in the top 3 of my challenges... .(I don't want to sound like I'm splitting or something but my T doesn't recommend any self-soothing strategies as she finds I have to think of them myself, so I get them from google or by trial and error   )

I suppose it’s possible that she might think [or her experience might tell her that] different strategies work differently for different people which might be why she’d prefer for you to find your own. Even so, it’s a bit of a shame she didn’t come up with some of her own suggestions.

I hope you both have a nice weekend and I'll be back on here by Monday. (I have some DIY'ing to do... .which also happens to be a useful way of dealing with bottled-up anger.)

Thank you and same to you good luck with the DIYing

Wow, Justnothing, thank you for starting this thread!  I'm so glad I came across it today!  You have given me many things to ponder.  I recently commented on another thread about feeling empathy for my abusers.  You have shown me an alternate view of why I do this in this synopsis of the two types of victims.  

Thank you!

Welcome I’m glad you were able to find it helpful.