Gender Differences Regarding Communication with BPD SO

[sarahelisabeth]

Moselle wrote this in response to something I had written on another board and asked me to post it here on this board that is more topic appropriate.

Quoting from Moselle:

"This is a powerful statement.  "It's an I want... ." statement.

I've learned that it's one of the most powerful things to tell a person with BPD.

Mine hears repeatedly from me : "I want respect and nurturing in my marriage". I want it. They can't argue with a want.  It's mine.  And she knows there's only one way for me to get what I want in this marriage. She needs to be a partner in it. I don't know if I'll ever get it, but it's my choice and freedom to want it.

This is my question in response to what was written:

A question for you. I'm assuming you're male because you're talking about your wife? If so, do you think the "I want" statements have more impact because of the gender dynamics? When a man says that to a woman it has the potential to have more impact than if the roles are reversed? Or do you think that all goes out the window because the illness comes into play first?

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[formflier]

 

The one "gender difference" that I can think of... .is sort of stereotypical.

I'm not saying this is true... .just relaying the stereotype.  The stereotype is on steriods in my r/s.

That is that women want to focus on feelings and wants... .and men want facts and detailed plans.

So... .I think from that... if you describe your want... and then give a couple of suggestions about how your hubby my fulfill that want... .that would be great.

Key thing... .give him choices... .be happy with whatever comes your way... .make sure he knows he is appreciated for the effort.


Again trying to stay away from a stereotypical interaction where "she never notices... "  Make sure you notice.

Good to focus on I want and I feel... .vice "I need" or saying things are factual.

Did I kinda answer the question?

[sarahelisabeth]

Formflier, yes, I see what you're saying. I've taken assertive communication workshops and what they teach - the "I feel ... ." just does not work in this situation. I wondered if it was the male/female dynamic or if it was because there was something else going on. That was before the BPD diagnosis and I was like what in the heck is happening?

I am actually scared to try the "I want" statements with him. It feels so aggressive and parental to me (For example, I want you to clean your room is something you'd say to your child). I don't have children, thank the heavens above or else I'd have had a breakdown years ago trying to balance them and my husband, so I've never had to act in that way. I always ask ... .can you blah blah blah, even at work I'm not demanding of anyone.

This seems like a lot of work for a relationship. I know all relationships take effort, but it's like you have to learn a whole new language and a new way of behaving. It feels like a game of psychology and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I only have female friendships to compare it to and they are so different than this, but that is probably comparing apples and oranges, right?

[formflier]

It feels like a game of psychology and I'm not sure how I feel about that. 

I really think that highlights how differently "we" and "they" exist in the world.  it's not right or wrong... .it's just different.

Can you try a couple "I want" statements here... .use ones that you want to use on your husband. 

That format is a little foreign to me... .I like talking about my feelings... .but I haven't tried to talk about my wants.

The thing you need to be prepare for... .is for him to say great... .I understand... .and then move along like nothing happened.

Just because you want it... .doesn't mean it should... .or will happen.

Again... I like the idea... .it's just a bit new to me... .so want to make sure that I understand exactly what you are trying to say.

I think you are trying to get him to do things that "make" you feel better about the r/s.

In that case... .I recommend more of an approach where you praise him for something he just did... and ask for more of that... .let him know how good it feels when he does that!

[Cat Familiar]

I am actually scared to try the "I want" statements with him. It feels so aggressive and parental to me (For example, I want you to clean your room is something you'd say to your child). I don't have children, thank the heavens above or else I'd have had a breakdown years ago trying to balance them and my husband, so I've never had to act in that way. I always ask ... .can you blah blah blah, even at work I'm not demanding of anyone.

This seems like a lot of work for a relationship. I know all relationships take effort, but it's like you have to learn a whole new language and a new way of behaving. It feels like a game of psychology and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I only have female friendships to compare it to and they are so different than this, but that is probably comparing apples and oranges, right?

Sarahelisabeth, I think I get what you're asking in terms of gender differences. For my BPDh, it's offensive if I ask him to do anything. "Can you take out the recycling bin?" turns into a glare directed at me, then he'll make a big show of rushing to do it in a very dramatic way. I've tried phrasing it in a variety of ways, and if it's indirect, like "This bin is getting really full," then that p!$$es him off even more.

He's trained me so that I just do it myself. Sometimes he'll make a big show of trying to take over (it's as though he's timed it perfectly) when I'm almost entirely done with a task. Then he'll take a huge amount of credit for doing it. I really offended him once when I said that living with him is like living with a teenager. BUT IT'S TRUE.

[sarahelisabeth]

Actually, now that I've said it - that I always ask "can you ... ." I don't actually do that. I don't ask him to do anything because I've gotten the same response as you did Cat Familiar. I never ask him for help with anything, even when I'm hauling in the groceries and he sees me struggling with them, I won't say anything and he doesn't help me either.

Formflier, okay here's a practice "I want" statement. He just sent me a demanding text to print something out for him. I wanted to tell him that he should ask me, not tell me to do something. But how do I do that without coming across as nagging or b___y? I mean if I would have said "I want you to ask me to do that rather than command me to do it" he would have said "just forget it then" and stormed off. How do I sneak the "I wants" into the conversation?

As for telling him what a good job he did on something, I've given up on that too because he can't take the compliment and just starts saying how horrible what he's done turned out.

[Cat Familiar]

Actually, now that I've said it - that I always ask "can you ... ." I don't actually do that. I don't ask him to do anything because I've gotten the same response as you did Cat Familiar. I never ask him for help with anything, even when I'm hauling in the groceries and he sees me struggling with them, I won't say anything and he doesn't help me either.

Formflier, okay here's a practice "I want" statement. He just sent me a demanding text to print something out for him. I wanted to tell him that he should ask me, not tell me to do something. But how do I do that without coming across as nagging or b___y? I mean if I would have said "I want you to ask me to do that rather than command me to do it" he would have said "just forget it then" and stormed off. How do I sneak the "I wants" into the conversation?

As for telling him what a good job he did on something, I've given up on that too because he can't take the compliment and just starts saying how horrible what he's done turned out.

Sounds like I'm married to his identical twin brother.

[formflier]

  I wanted to tell him that he should ask me, not tell me to do something. But how do I do that without coming across as nagging or b___y? 

You don't... .

You don't worry about "how it comes off to him... "... he will most likely misinterpret.

You do need to practice saying it in an "even" manner... .don't accuse... .it should be a kind voice.

So... .try this a few times... .

Go ahead and print... when you take it to him... be pleasant and let him know you have his printing... and hand it to him.  maybe have a glass of water too.

See what he says...

If he says thanks... make sure that you give a sincere you are welcome. 

Then follow up by asking how the project is going... validate emotions you hear.

If he seems busy... ask him to let you know when he is done with the project and you can talk for 5 minutes or so.

If he blows you off when you bring him printing... .

Ask him to let you know when you can have 5 minutes of his time... .later that evening.

In either case... when you get his attention... .be direct about how it made you feel...   He is not wrong... you are not right... .it's about feelings.

"I enjoy helping you with your projects... .I would enjoy it even more if you would ask in this way... "

Don't demand... .

Thoughts?

[sarahelisabeth]

Oh myyyy Cat Familiar. There's more than one of them out there, ? His dad was the same, so I guess that would be triplets ... .at least. I remember going to a family function and his wife asked her husband to pass her a dinner bun and he literally turned around with this scowl on his face and threw it at her. Not a single family member flinched but I was horrified. I'm like, they think that's normal? I want things to be different than the relationship my MIL had with her husband.

And that leads us to Formflier's advice. Well, I can tell you this. There will be no "thank you" for anything I do so we can skip to the blowing me off portion of your advice. I like your phrase "I enjoy helping you with your projects... .I would enjoy it even more if you would ask in this way... ", although the enjoyment part is actually a lie because of how he asks and how he expects me to drop everything all the time and help him. But I could give it a try and see what the response is. Not sure if this is the best time to do it though as he's not too pleasant. I'm going to wait until he perks up plus he has a psych appointment tomorrow so we'll see if his meds get tweaked a bit too.

On to a completely unrelated tangent. I worked out today, came home, showered, did my hair different than usual and actually put on makeup and I feel FANTASTIC! And now I'm going shopping at Walmart, .

Have a splendid night everyone! 

[formflier]

 

I actually don't think it is a lie... .

You probably enjoy the helping (the true part)... .you most likely don't enjoy the lack of appreciation... .or whatever you get from him.

Ultimately... .you need to reinforce good behavior... .and not reward bad behavior.

So... .if he asks for printing in a crappy way... .no printing... he gets to deal with it... not you.

The trick is to think this through and be smart about it... .pick your battles.

Win them... .1 by 1... .little by little.  baby steps.

This will take a while... but it can be done... .

If you change... .he will change... .you will have changed the dynamic.  Be prepared for him to try and "get it back"... whatever it is.  Most likely "it" is an unhealthy interaction... .

Thoughts?

Don't wait... .don't rush... .but smart about it.

Say something sincere and nice to him tonight... .use a gentle touch on the shoulder... and move along.

Thing about something you would like him to do for... .or to... you.  Think of this as modeling good behavior for him.

Go for it! You can do this!

[sarahelisabeth]

I understand what you're saying but I don't think I have the energy for it. Maybe you're catching me on a bad day. Came home to a husband that's ignoring me. I don't know how many more years I can take of this emotional roller coaster. Need to get out of the house for a while otherwise I'm going to sit here and cry for the evening. I'll go over your information when I'm in a better frame of mine. Thanks for your support nonetheless.

[formflier]

  Came home to a husband that's ignoring me. 

Not taking it personally is huge.

Not making assumptions is another thing that blends right in with this.

How do you know that your husband is ignoring you?  How do you know that it has anything to do with you? 

[waverider]

"I want" is an ambiguous term as it depends what it is attached to it and if there is an expectation of someone else attached.

eg "I want you to do XYZ for me"... this is a demand

     "I want to do XYZ for myself" ... this is your responsibility and your right to choose.

In a stereotypical world the female mind thinks the former and the male the later. Though thats not a golden rule. pwBPD of both sexes generally get stuck on the former

[sarahelisabeth]

Formflier, it probably doesn't have anything to do with me i.e. nothing I did, but when you try to have a casual conversation with someone after not seeing them all day and they scowl at you, or swear or angrily mumble something in your direction, it's hard to stay upbeat and not take it personally. It's also hard to not take it personally when they do this to you and then they write a cheerful text to someone a minute later. And then later on, they are nice to you like nothing ever happened.

As for how do I know my husband is ignoring me, this is the pattern. I come home, say hello, get no response. I go make dinner and bring it to him, no response. I ask him a question. I get no response. I wonder where he's gone and find that he's downstairs watching tv, something he never does alone on the good days or never goes and does without telling me. Or I find that he's gone to bed at 7 p.m. and when I find him there and ask if he's okay, I get no response.

Thanks for your input, Waverider.

[believer55]

Love the bin story... .happens here just like that too! FF thank you for the advice on this thread.

[formflier]

  I go make dinner and bring it to him, no response. 

OK... this is a bit of an odd way to look at it... .but why would he respond.  ? It appears he gets his needs met without responding... .

I only say this to point out that a "dynamic" develops over a period of time that is hard for many of us to see.

So... what would happen if you talk to him and he doesn't respond.  You fix and eat dinner... .put everything away and go  on.  He will eventually ask about dinner... .

You can say evenly... .(not picking a fight... )... .  I didn't hear from you when I asked if you wanted a plate... .or... .something along those lines.

Make sure that things you say "require" an open ended response (not all the time... but often)... .in other words... .if you get him responding... but are asking him yes and no questions... .very likely that is what you will get.

[waverider]

Ask yourself, What is the default result if he doesn't respond?

The default result should always favor you not him. If he wants the result to favor him then he needs to action something.

If he wants to be left alone, leave him alone, dont do anything for him or try to stimulate him.

Ignoring someone only works if they take any notice of being ignored. You can't ignore anyone if you are the only person present.

If he doesn't want to talk to you, go visit a friend / relative / find somewhere else to be. Dont allow yourself to be ignored. If he wants to know where you have been he will have to stop ignoring you and ask.

[formflier]

The default result should always favor you not him. If he wants the result to favor him then he needs to action something.

Huge point... .the ties in closely with not making assumptions... .

Don't assume he is ignoring you... .or mad at you... or happy with you... .

He may try to give you a "standing response... "... .honey if I don't say anything... .then this is what I want... .don't go there... .don't ever agree to that.  Because... when you do his standing response... .and he doesn't like it... .you will remind him that it is a standing response... and now you are JADEing... .

[Cat Familiar]

Sarahelisabeth,

I know how frustrating it is to be ignored. My husband doesn't do it to the extent that yours does, but he will not answer sometimes when I ask him a question or say something. On the other hand, he is totally insulted if I don't make a comment after some insignificant remark he has made.

No way would I just serve him dinner if he can't even speak to me. I would be furious if I were in your place. You're his wife, not his servant.

[formflier]

  I would be furious if I were in your place.

Hopefully... .we can all get to the place where we just "do"... and don't let these traits and behaviors "get" our emotions going.

Remember... .it's not about us... .I know it can seem like it... .but it's really not.

[Cat Familiar]

 I would be furious if I were in your place.

Hopefully... .we can all get to the place where we just "do"... and don't let these traits and behaviors "get" our emotions going.

Remember... .it's not about us... .I know it can seem like it... .but it's really not.

Yeah, most of the time I can observe his odd behavior like an anthropologist observing some peculiar custom in an aboriginal tribe. However, after being attacked repeatedly for no good reason, and I can admit to less than optimal behavior, I lose patience, of which I typically have an abundance. So it's nice to be able to vent here and express my irritation, because it's definitely not a good idea to do that at home.

[123Phoebe]

 I would be furious if I were in your place.

Hopefully... .we can all get to the place where we just "do"... and don't let these traits and behaviors "get" our emotions going.

Remember... .it's not about us... .I know it can seem like it... .but it's really not.

Yeah, most of the time I can observe his odd behavior like an anthropologist observing some peculiar custom in an aboriginal tribe. However, after being attacked repeatedly for no good reason, and I can admit to less than optimal behavior, I lose patience, of which I typically have an abundance. So it's nice to be able to vent here and express my irritation, because it's definitely not a good idea to do that at home.

This is true to a point; the point in which we find ourselves affected by it.  Ew.

If he doesn't want to talk to you, go visit a friend / relative / find somewhere else to be. Dont allow yourself to be ignored. If he wants to know where you have been he will have to stop ignoring you and ask.

And don't make it about or because of him/her.  Have better things to do, because you do and feel happy for having other interests

[waverider]

And don't make it about or because of him/her.  Have better things to do, because you do and feel happy for having other interests

Yep we are all entitled to have a life regardless of what someone elses is doing. Anyone else is privileged to be included in our lives. We are not obliged to let them ruin it for us. Many of us forget, or struggle to realize, this.