Anybody else have to pay for BPDex's legal fees too?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I am going crazy now.  Somehow I am on the hook for my wife's lawyer fees (statute here in Florida, if there is one wage-earner).  It feels like I am just punching myself in the face here. 

She wanted to get rid of me, so I obliged by moving out because I couldn't take the verbal abuse anymore... .Then she files for divorce, and changes the locks on our house.  I am still paying the  mortgage, all utilities, all insurances, and giving her gas and grocery money... .AND I have to pay for her lawyer to fight against my lawyer.  This is so sick.

I seem to have no leverage, and nobody involved has any financial pain except for me... .somehow this just doesn't feel right.

We don't have kids, and I am getting my butt handed to me for being a nice guy all these years!  She wants an unreasonable amount for her half of my business interest, and more than half of my salary for three years in addition to half of every asset.  I am in disbelief of this process. 

[Heartandsole]

I am going crazy now.  Somehow I am on the hook for my wife's lawyer fees (statute here in Florida, if there is one wage-earner).  It feels like I am just punching myself in the face here. 

She wanted to get rid of me, so I obliged by moving out because I couldn't take the verbal abuse anymore... .Then she files for divorce, and changes the locks on our house.  I am still paying the  mortgage, all utilities, all insurances, and giving her gas and grocery money... .AND I have to pay for her lawyer to fight against my lawyer.  This is so sick.

I seem to have no leverage, and nobody involved has any financial pain except for me... .somehow this just doesn't feel right.

We don't have kids, and I am getting my butt handed to me for being a nice guy all these years!  She wants an unreasonable amount for her half of my business interest, and more than half of my salary for three years in addition to half of every asset.  I am in disbelief of this process. 

[ForeverDad]

I had that pain too, some differences but still painful.  Because we had a preschooler, she was able to stretch out the divorce for 2 years.  While I did have to pay some short term alimony, she was responsible to pay for her own legal fees from the marital assets she received.

I'm wondering whether your situation isn't as dire and hopeless as you may feel.  If you don't have a good lawyer who is experienced with high conflict cases, you could seek consultations with additional experts.

However, an important stance or tactic to take - even if it ultimately has less than complete effect - is to maintain that all expenses should be deducted from marital assets BEFORE she gets her split.  Maybe, just a little, that might lessen her obstructions and excessive demands if she realizes/accepts that additional costs will IMPACT HER and just reduce what is left to be split.

An additional stance to take is to always state to the judge, lawyers and all that she needs to "get a job", that some day her "transitional support" from you will end, whenever that might be, and then she will need to already be standing on her own two feet, either gainfully employed or linked up with someone else to support her.

Without custody issues, she has much less leverage than she would otherwise have.  Be business-like, don't be guilted into offering more than is appropriate.

Rather than waste time about the value of the business, you may want to have a professional place a value on it, a Special Master or forensic expert.

Edit:  She's a realtor, right?  Then she can easily be working and earning good money.  I would press your lawyer to state that any and all support, current and future, be based upon her 'income' being IMPUTED comparable to what she could earn if she would just go find a job!  Don't make it easy on her.  As it is, even though you are the responsible spouse, no one will make it easy on you.

[whirlpoollife]

Right now , my h is making his entitlement demands on the division of property. He somehow feels what my parents business was is his.  From my experience and what I am currently going though , I would hire a CPA, forensic accountant , to get a valuation on your business.  It will cost some money but you could save more in the long run.  Make sure the CPA and your L communicate well on this.

If she gets half of the business , where your income comes from, then she cannot use that same income for spousal support. Or if she gets spousal support from it then she cannot use it as a marital asset too.

When you do deduct her share of legal fees from the marital assets division, maybe not do it right away because she will only up her share ... .talk with L as to when to present that.

Why are you paying for her gas and groceries ? And utilities? Without a court order you are gifiting that money to her. Still keep record of it because you might be able to deduct that from  future spousal support.

MHO, I would stop the groceries and gas money and take my name off the utilities... .now.

[Heartandsole]

I had that pain too, some differences but still painful.  Because we had a preschooler, she was able to stretch out the divorce for 2 years.  While I did have to pay some short term alimony, she was responsible to pay for her own legal fees from the marital assets she received.

Edit:  She's a realtor, right?  Then she can easily be working and earning good money.  I would press your lawyer to state that any and all support, current and future, be based upon her 'income' being IMPUTED comparable to what she could earn if she would just go find a job!  Don't make it easy on her.  As it is, even though you are the responsible spouse, no one will make it easy on you.

She is a realtor and just made a $6,000 commission in the last month, however I get this: "[The dog] out of food. I don't have money to buy any bc you did not given me the minimum last week of $xxx. I can't buy gas for my car or food for the house and I certainly can't afford Koa. I propose you take her until this divorce is settled, or put adequate $ in my account, or buy her food, me gas and supply groceries, pay my KW bill, lawn care, utilities, mortgage ect. I need to make a decision about [the dog] tomorrow.

She says the money is all gone, she had to re

I do have the Utilities in her name already, and I still pay the mortgage even though she changed the locks on the house... .because the note is in my name and we will be selling it. 

The valuation of the business will take tens of thousands of dollars that I don't have, and whatever they say the value is, and she is rightfully entitled to half... .That is going to be in the six figure category, and the only way to come up with all this cash is to liquidate marital assets... .   She is stubborn as anything and we are


The thing is I've paid for her to become a certified teacher... .she was great at it, but didn't like it... .then I paid for her to be a realtor... .she now wants me to pay $11,000  for her to go be a certified dietician/healthcoach... .  Which isn't going to make her a ton of money.


My lawyer says that I should just keep forking over money to her because the amount I am paying is probably less than a judge would tell me to pay, and pay her atty fees because here atty is reasonable and smart and if the atty isn't getting paid, they will quit the case and I may end up with an unreasonable atty who I have to pay for... .I am getting pissed!  I have been staying at my parents house rent-free since May.

[ogopogodude]

Something doesn't seem right. There is a conflict of interest.  If you pay HER lawyer's fees, ... that means, by default, that her lawyer is WORKING FOR YOU, ... not her... .

[ogopogodude]

(tsk, tsk, tsk, ... .me thinks that, before finally leaving, someone forgot to videotape the verbal/emotional/physical abuse of the perpetrator with their iPhone/ipad mini/ etc ... .There is nothing, and I mean nothing like have temper tantrum rages documented on a USB memory card, or portable hard drive safely put away in a safety deposit box at the bank. Some people would call this blackmail potential, but I like to call it "leverage capability"

[ForeverDad]

The thing is I've paid for her to become a certified teacher... .she was great at it, but didn't like it... .then I paid for her to be a realtor... .she now wants me to pay $11,000  for her to go be a certified dietician/healthcoach... .  Which isn't going to make her a ton of money.

So you've already trained her for two occupations, I doubt a court will force you to pay for her to learn a third one.  My ex wasted her precious marital equity trying to get into the hairdresser/massage type of business, so far as I can tell, she lost it all in just a few years.

This reminds me of someone forever learning to work but careful to never actually admit doing any.

There was a book I read years ago, it was one that morphed into Sci-Fi, started with a guy who was a trust fund kid but it would end when he graduated college.  So naturally just before graduation he always changed his majors.  Some 15 years later the college dean was jubilant when he told the kid, now grown man, he had run out of majors to change to.  And then the Sci-Fi stary took over.  Your ex reminds me of that novel, a professional student.

My lawyer says that I should just keep forking over money to her because the amount I am paying is probably less than a judge would tell me to pay, and pay her atty fees because here atty is reasonable and smart and if the atty isn't getting paid, they will quit the case and I may end up with an unreasonable atty who I have to pay for... .I am getting pissed!  I have been staying at my parents house rent-free since May.

I don't have a suggestion on this... .maybe you can tell him he will get paid, deducted from her marital equity?  After all, it's only a 10 year marriage, though it can become 11 or 12 years before this is done.

Can you document it all, call her bluff, pick up the dog and find the dog a new home?  As long as it doesn't get you in trouble doing that.

Notice how the money disappears?  Right now she has leverage, possession of the home.  You need a binding agreement with her that if she doesn't get it sold within reasonable time then you can ask the court for possession so you can get it sold.  As long as she lives in the house you just can't be sure how diligently she's trying to sell it.

[Heartandsole]

(tsk, tsk, tsk, ... .me thinks that, before finally leaving, someone forgot to videotape the verbal/emotional/physical abuse of the perpetrator with their iPhone/ipad mini/ etc ... .There is nothing, and I mean nothing like have temper tantrum rages documented on a USB memory card, or portable hard drive safely put away in a safety deposit box at the bank. Some people would call this blackmail potential, but I like to call it "leverage capability"

I have hours and hours and hours of recordings of total rage and verbal abuse, physical abuse etc.  The messed up thing is in my state is what is called a "no fault state"  It doesn't matter if there was physical abuse, infidelity etc., especially without a custody battle.  It is just about splitting up assets and deciding on alimony amount and duration.  The issue with my case is that my business interest is really hard to put a value on, and my valuation is based on reason, logic and math, and her's is based on emotion, and delusions of grandeur and they are WAAAAAY far apart.  Getting the business evaluated is complicated.  Quotes have come in as high as $80,000 to do it properly, which is more than I believe her half is worth.  What?

In the next town over there was a woman who shot both her kids point blank range and admitted it and is in jail.  Her husband was quite upset that his wife murdered their children as you can imagine. She was not the wage-earner and the system awarded her alimony... .

There is also a statute the says that if the non-wage earning spouse can't afford a lawyer, the other spouse will pay for it... .  Soo FML.

My wife was diagnosed with Cancer during the first month of our ten year marriage.  She has a college degree, taught school for five years, changed to a couple different jobs before becoming a realtor, now wants to be a health coach and wants me to pay for the schooling. 


See if you can follow this logic of texts this morning:



ME:"Explain to me how you have made $6000 in the last month and yet have no money for dog food, but have a budget for rent the runway dresses and shop at Nordstrom Rack etc.

You withdrew the last $.89 from my Regions bank account and then scheduled a utility bill out of that account that had a balance of exactly $0.

That is why I had to cancel my regions account, you overdrew it just like you did the Synovus account. You are no longer in charge of scheduling mortgage payments, so there is no reason for you to have that as a payee.

Legal fees are already more than your proposed schooling expense BTW.

Why do you think you should not participate in that expense either?




HER:My paycheck was explained at mediation. Legal bills were also explained there. I really wish we could have agreed to something there as this experience is very stressful and draining. I'm having to ignore medical problems bc I don't have money to pay for that either.

You are illegally quoting expenses of mine that are irrelevant to you paying me alimony to help with bills and my living expenses. I'd like to know how you have gained access to that information? If you gained access illegally can be prosecuted.

Are you planning on paying the water, cable, and electric for the house? I posted the other payment to your account as was discussed at mediation so my account wasn't overdrawn. I'm sorry it happened to you this time but it's not my fault. These are expenses for our marital home and I can't afford them. Seems best that we put that on the market. When are you planning on signing or discussing the listing paperwork? It's been a month since you have had the papers? Thanks. "

***end of texts***

Her paycheck was not explained... .the way it was explained didn't account for 1/3 of it!  Why she thinks it's not her fault that she scheduled a payment from an account with no money is beyond me.  Why she threatens about prosecuting me (I see the shopping bags in her car when dropping off food for the dog... .)   Paranoid Narcissism!

[Ripped Heart]

Heartandsole,

I went through a similar process with my exN/BPDw several years ago. Was hit with a very surprise divorce (I believe she had a replacement lined up already) and the divorce was literally overnight. It was her lawyer, her agreements, the suggestion of me retaining my own lawyer was met with the nastiest rage I have ever seen and given the circumstances I just needed to get out of there.

So, was hit with the divorce one evening (no indication anything was coming up) papers signed the following morning and left the following day. All initiated and instigated by exN/BPDw and I had no say whatsoever.

Was also quite easy because we lived with her parents (she has never been independent) so no assets on that front, Children were hers so no custody battle. What I did get caught in was paying off half her credit card bill. Despite the debts being hers (taking vacations and flying first class - I paid my own way) since we were married I was hit for half of her debts. Felt that was a little unfair but given the circumstances and also being able to get as far away as possible, I agreed.

Shortly after I escaped, started getting emails through, at first it was an attempt to re-engage (seems replacement was on a different wavelength to her and not really interested in anything outside of working together) when that was met with silence, I then started getting nasty emails demanding I pay the lawyers fees for the divorce. There was never any agreement on that and nothing within the documentation either so left that well alone and stayed NC.

Then came the shock email. She had filed for a restraining order against me, stating that I was stalking her, she had apparently seen me hiding behind bushes watching her, but at the time I was in an entirely different country and the case was dismissed. I believe she even landed herself in trouble over false allegations and received a fine herself which angered her.

She actually sent an email demanding that I pay the costs of the lawyer for that occasion as well as the fees for filing the paperwork and also her fine. Her logic was that I caused her to do that so therefore I "have" to take responsibility for my actions 

Again, remained NC and then was bombarded with emails to work, my personal email address, letters to my mothers address (been very careful not to let my own address out on public domain) phonecalls to my family. As quick as I was blocking routes, she was trying to find new ones. LinkedIn was the best one because I even got a message on there asking me to stop stalking her. It turns out people from within my company had looked at her page so they "must" be spying for me. My company is Global and one of the biggest in the world and the people she listed as "spies" spanned from her country and have nothing at all to do with me.

She wanted me to engage so then she had "proof" that I was still in contact and therefore find a way to clear her name and hit me with all the fees again.

I would get threats such as if I don't respond within 2 hours, she will email these people and tell them she knows what they are doing.

The agreement for the credit card was automated every month, however on the final month I got another email asking that I continue it for the next few months at the same rate as this would cover the lawyers fees for both divorce and attempted restraining order. The way she worded the email was like she was actually doing me a favour. Kind of like debt collection companies when they tell you all the bad things they can do but will help out out if you pay a small amount. Knowing full well, that once you make any kind of payment, you accept liability. She was extremely clever in that sense in terms of manipulation.

The key to your issue is similar in the sense that you stand your corner. The moment you pay anything towards the lawyer fees they have you for liability. Surely too, the one wage relates to people living under the same roof? What has your own lawyer said about the situation? What would be the worst that could happen if you refused to pay her fees? Would you have the opportunity to stand up in a court and explain your reasoning? Because what you state in your post is entirely reasonable (if not excessive) in terms of what you are already paying out for?

[clydegriffith]

I feel your pain. I went through the same thring but through a different angle. BPDx would make false DV allegations against me which automatically result in my arrest and an order of protection issued. I was thrown out of my apt and had to continue paying all the bills associated with same because she was there with our daughter.

[ForeverDad]

You will simply waste time and expose yourself to more guilting if you keep trying to reason with her or get explanations from her.  She's not listening and how can you get a decent answer from someone who isn't listening and/or will twist and distort everything until it isn't recognizable.

Distraction is one of her tactics also.  You ask about one thing - what happened to her huge paycheck - and you got a runaround about everything but that.

While you do have to ask certain things so you can document you did nearly everything right and nothing wrong, realize you won't get the answers and cooperation you need.  Accept that.  Right now, as expensive as it sounds, the solutions are more with the court than with her.  Accept that you will not be able to get a reasonable agreement from her, so focus more on the legal process to get things done.  While the courts are slow and make just minimal fixes, they are not purposely trying to obstruct you every step of the way.  Court is the Real Authority, not her as she thinks.  remember too that this was a10 year marriage, not 20-30 years.  She has multiple careers to choose from, it's not like she's impoverished, destitute and totally unskilled!

Sit down and make a strategy... . get the house sale process started and kept on track with a clearly outlined series of steps in a court order with real consequences for whoever delays it.  Get the business valued, have that cost ordered by the court to be taken from the marital funds or reimbursed to you from marital funds.  Once a value is in, court will accept that rather than her nonprofessional claims.

For example, the house.  You're bleeding financially there, as long as she is there she's unlikely to sell the house and you'll be stuck paying for who knows how long.  However, she is there and court will likely not force her out at this time, the court will assume she will sell the house and then move out in a timely manner.  You know better but court won't listen to your past experiences.  So get an enforceable agreement or court order in place is a top priority.  It has to say more than what she will do.  It has to contain consequences for every step that is not taken.

Spouse want to sell house.  Okay, spouse must list within XX days.  Spouse must all all showings, any refused showings must be rescheduled within 3 days, list any fixtures, switches or wall plates that are not to be removed when she moves out, etc.

If spouse fails to list within that time then you can go to court and the court will order you to take over the sale process while she is ordered to vacate within XX days.  Any damages or repairs needed to sell it will be deducted from her share of the proceeds.

If spouse fails to prep the house... .you get the idea.

If spouse fails to show the house... .you get the idea.

If house is listed, shown and all offers are too low, then both spouses must accept the highest bid (not a ringer).

Both spouses will now sign quit claim deeds (to be held in safekeeping by the attorney) so sale can't be obstructed at last minute.

If either spouse refuses to sign the needed paperwork, the judge will sign for that person.

Get the idea?  :)ivorce is like a merger Business Plan but in reverse.  Get the teeth in there of she will ignore it with virtual impunity from the court.

Whether you settle or go to court, one of the lawyers will need to write the ruling up. Make sure it is your lawyer. It will cost you money, but it gives you some control over what gets written. Everything that goes in there needs a consequence. If your wife is in the home and you plan to sell it, make sure there are clear stipulations for everything. What happens if she does not agree to an appraiser, what happens if she does not agree on a realtor, what happens if there is an offer within 5% of the asking price -- someone needs to be the decider. Think carefully about every step in every interaction or agreement where there is potential for her to stonewall or obstruct, and have a consequence in there. She won't necessarily comply just because of the consequence, but in the event you have to go to court, you won't be gambling on what the judge will do. The judge will see that she signed the document, and the document says if she doesn't agree to x, y, z, then a, b, c will happen. Otherwise, many judges will give people a second and third bite of the apple.

Drives me absolutely nuts.

Good luck, and don't fold if you can avoid it. Stick to your boundaries --- anything less and she will still manage to create problems, so don't look at anything less as though it will make the conflict go away. It won't, sorry to say.

So true.  Why is it so important to get consequences - or the next steps if something fails - included in the order?  Judges are very reluctant to have one spouse or parent feel the winner or the other feel the loser.  So when you're back in court and the ex asks for time or tries to wriggle out of the terms, a judge will think, "Why not?"  Judges won't care about your valuable time or your legal fees paid, time and money are the least of their concerns. Their goal is to put off making a decision in hopes more time and money will let the matter fix itself.  Remember, they assume both parents will act like somewhat reasonable people.  You know your ex won't and that is the problem, judges are very reluctant to accept that and so it's next to impossible to get the judges to call the obstructive person to account.

Also, if a settlement is reached, have the terms read into the record right there in court.  Why?  That way if there is disagreement about what was written up, the court's record can be consulted and followed.  And yes, the ex will try to reinterpret the settlement.  Yes, that quickly.

Here is a member whose spouse was not living in the home but was still obstructing:

Do you both have joint involvement in the listing, showing and selling?  You need to go back to court, seek possession, get authority to handle the sell process from start to finish.  And get the order to state now, up front, that if he doesn't sign for anything needed, then the judge will sign in his place.  For example, have him sign the paperwork in advance such as his Quit Claim Deed (if he is co-owner) and have the lawyer hold it in safekeeping so it will be available when the house is sold.

In essence, think ahead, anticipate his obstructions, delays, quibbles and non-responses and deal with them proactively before they hold up the sale process even more that it has already delayed.  Likely you will need to return to court to make your case that he is holding up the process and will continue to do so unless schedules and structures are in place to accomplish the original order.

Your dream court order: (Beware, I am not a lawyer!)

• Ex continues paying for the house-related expenses - mortgage, utilities, insurance, etc - until it is sold.



• Hope is awarded sole possession of the house for the purpose to enable the sale process.



• Ex may not enter the property or obstruct the sale process without the approval of the court.



• If Ex files motions with the court regarding the case, the sale process will meanwhile proceed unobstructed.



• Hope prepares house, shows or allows showing, schedules all appointments with the professionals and buyers involved.



• Ex will sign papers in advance, if paperwork available, and they will be held in safekeeping by lawyer.



• If ex does not sign promptly, then court will sign in his place.



• Any proceeds from the sale (such as marital equity) will have interim repair or sale prep expenses deducted first before being split as previously ordered.



• If the mortgage is not paid up to date at the time of the sale then any arrears will be deducted from Ex's portion of the proceeds.



• If the court has ordered or warded any monies to Hope from Ex that are still unpaid at the time of the sale then said monies will be deducted from Ex's portion of the proceeds.



• Ex will not obstruct or delay any step of the sale process or be held in Contempt of Court with Ex liable for all court fees and legal costs.

[Forestaken]

Her L got me to pay $7500 (female client, L & J) - the case before: Deadbeat Dad, My L never had the opportunity to speak (her L spoke first, J decided, told my L "I've already decided"

6 months later: They were dragging it out (2 disputed items). So, my L stopped billing me, plan to sue her for his fees (her L likewise).

Then the same Female J appear complaining about her broken water heater during an earlier case, My L turned me and said "Give her all of the disputed items, (in my mind he didn't need to say it to me - I already knew)".

Guess what: those disputed items are still sitting in my garage.  She hasn't shown up to pick them up over 2 months ago.

[maxen]

hi heartandsole. i'm really sorry you're in this mess. i would only emphasize from the excellent advice you're received above to approach this methodically (not in a panic), to approach this legally (not emotionally) and to keep your own interests in view at all times. i'd think the court would look for quantifiable stuff: in the valuation of your business, logic and math will (well, should) trump delusion and emotion.

I am on the hook for my wife's lawyer fees (statute here in Florida, if there is one wage-earner).

i'm very sorry to hear that. but remember that you are not being out-done here, it's just the law.

[ForeverDad]

I am on the hook for my wife's lawyer fees (statute here in Florida, if there is one wage-earner).

i'm very sorry to hear that. but remember that you are not being out-done here, it's just the law.

Hey, she just made $6K.  There is no "one wage-earner".  She could have been working all during the marriage, it was her choice not to work the entire time.  And at least part of that time she WAS working.  It may be worth it for lawyer to convince the judge she's qualified for multiple types of work, she's just claiming not to work to mis-use the law.

[Heartandsole]

hi heartandsole. i'm really sorry you're in this mess. i would only emphasize from the excellent advice you're received above to approach this methodically (not in a panic), to approach this legally (not emotionally) and to keep your own interests in view at all times. i'd think the court would look for quantifiable stuff: in the valuation of your business, logic and math will (well, should) trump delusion and emotion.

I am on the hook for my wife's lawyer fees (statute here in Florida, if there is one wage-earner).

i'm very sorry to hear that. but remember that you are not being out-done here, it's just the law.

It is so great to have some support from you guys.  Thanks everyone for their responses.  Straddling the threshold of divorce means that I end up in a fair amount of conversations with people about it.  The overwhelming common thread of advice that I get is "Pay more than you think is fair just to get it over with"

Foreverdad I believe it was you that said there is A, B and C... . I want to pay C, she want's A and B is fair and reasonable and I should just cough up a bit more than B.

It seems like today's advice from you guys is "tough it out and wade through the court system because that's where reason lies"  But at what expense?  I pay for all the consultants, the lawyers and I'm bleeding financially.  Our day in court won't be for 6-8 months from now.  I can't focus on work in the meantime which is going to catch up to me... .I'm not moving on with my life... . I can't even keep up with legal fees and support her in the meantime... . I am soo happy to have escaped the toxic environment and have come from a really dark place to a much happier place in my life since I fled the house in May, but that means I am staying with my parents because I want to keep my overhead low, she's got all the furniture, I don't know if I'll end up with our Dog, I have no idea what my monthly income will be after alimony, so how do I get on my feet with all these question marks hanging out there.  

What is the price of my mental stability that will come with "just knowing" how long this turd sandwich is.  I feel like I'd rather start eating and get over with it than waiting around for all the lawyers to make money at my expense.  

I did respond to her text today, and I just got the most maddening response back. She is really dug into the trenches and why not? She has nothing to lose, she came into this marriage with no assets whereas I didn't.  She has been financially taken me fro a ride with her sense of entitlement and used guilt to control me... .now in the end she is going to make it as painful as possible while justifying it as "just doing what is right"  "The court system will prevail"  Makes me want to vomit.

[livednlearned]

hi heartandsole. i'm really sorry you're in this mess. i would only emphasize from the excellent advice you're received above to approach this methodically (not in a panic), to approach this legally (not emotionally) and to keep your own interests in view at all times. i'd think the court would look for quantifiable stuff: in the valuation of your business, logic and math will (well, should) trump delusion and emotion.

This is excellent advice, Heartandsole. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors and grandstanding in the stage of divorce that you're going through right now, although I know it can be hard to detach emotionally when so much money and uncertainty and unfairness is flying around. Both lawyers are trying to keep their clients happy, they are ethically bound to represent so they have some bravado and posturing going on. Some of what comes from her L is just "asking for the moon," and is mostly a negotiating point. No doubt driven by her 

I didn't get the impression from what others have written that people are suggesting that you "tough it out and wade through the court system." I think it's more about having a method, a strategy, and use your negotiation skills to leverage the best outcome out of this mess. There are some things you can't get around, like statutes. But most lawyers pride themselves on settling things out of court, so use that to your advantage. Keep asking the other side for more than what you think is reasonable until her L starts to put some pressure on her to come down in her demands. If you aren't sure whether your L and the opposing L is court-avoidant, ask what percentage of their cases they settle in mediation. This might depend to some extent on whether the docket is backlogged where you live and the judges are elected. There is often tremendous pressure to keep this kind of stuff out of family court because it's really custody issues that the courts care about, and they are plugging up courts in a big way.

Lean hard on having any income she makes now subtracted from the final offer. You will probably end up giving her money, so use whatever you can to bring that amount down. Have you been married more than 10 years? In many states, alimony is computed according to half the years you were married. If she has already earned two degrees, and she just made money from one of her degrees, do your best to shut down any discussion about future $$ for schooling. If she insists, then ask for something else that's reasonable. Like you get to be the person who has the company assessed.

A lot of us come out of these marriages with very weak boundaries and that muscle hurts when we start using it. But it's the muscle you need most right now. The biggest mistake I made in the financial part of my divorce is thinking that if I gave my ex the house, he would settle down and I could move on. That isn't how it works with entitled people. You give them something, they want more. So think about boundaries as minimizing conflict for you. She might have a fit and rage at you, but the boundary is there as a safeguard to make sure she knows that your backbone is in place.

A couple of other random thoughts:

Also, is there any reason why you can't pick someone to evaluate your company who will only do the bare minimum? You want it evaluated low, yes?

Find out if you have to pay 100% of the legal fees. In my case, it is only ever a portion that the judge determines.

As much as possible, stop texting/emailing her and assume she is not going to be reasonable. Go silent and find out from your L what the consequences are of now responding to her, and whether you need to worry about her utilities, etc.

My L told me it's common for one partner to close down all the accounts, change utilities right away, clean the house out, and move on. There is no repercussion in court. In fact, it's so standard I think Ls kind of expect it. But it comes down to your values and your boundaries.

It's a new day. Pretty soon you won't be responsible for her, and it's ok to start practicing now.

[ForeverDad]

In my divorce we used the formula 2 months for every year, or one-sixth.  So it varies from place to place but these days the 'maximum' is usually considered half the marriage, often it is less.  I think Texas is capped at 3 years.  Basically the growing consensus is that post-divorce support or alimony is not a life-long arrangement, rather it is temporary solely to help the disadvantaged spouse to have time to get on his/her feet, adjust to post-marital life and find a job or get training (up to 2 years) for a career.

In your case she's already had more than enough career training - she's already got two or three careers to chose from.  Any argument she makes for needing support while she gets more training ought to be opposed in court.  Same if she tries to make your relationship time prior to marriage be added to your marriage length.  The point is that you don't just acquiesce to her every demand or claim.  Yes, the judge may side with her on some issues but you won't know until you counter her claims with strong points and hear the judge's decision.  The difference is that you just can feel defeated before you even get into court and passively accept whatever happens... .or you can be proactive and give a vigorous defense for your position that she is already more than capable, able to work but just choose to do only a little here and there.

You need to be assertive.  Proactive.  No judge will do your work for you.  No judge will deny her demands just because the judge thinks they're unreasonable.  For example if she demands $3K per month and judge looks at you and you and L stay silent, then the judge could very well grant it.  However, if you counter her every demand with reasons why it isn't needed, isn't appropriate, etc, then at least you will walk out knowing you've done all you could to get a better outcome.

Another variation... .Say she wants as much alimony as she can for long as she can.  You need to tell the judge, "Your honor, she worked for X years as AAAA even during the marriage, then I paid for her to learn BBBB, then I paid for her to learn CCCC.  She is fully capable of working, no other typical obligations such as caring for children, etc.  During our marriage she even worked for X years.  She worked now and then during the marriage with the training I paid for.  In fact, even since we've separated she's been working and a recent paycheck was a huge $SSSS.  She is qualified for up to 3 different types of jobs or careers.  Perhaps she may merit some very limited support but to rule that she as a spouse was not able to work would be an abuse of the law's intent.  Her actual work history and/or her imputed ability to work should be considered."

Add to that what is reasonable support - you living on a couch in your parent's spare room while she lives in the house you're paying for and is still unsold - and the judge should adjust for the obvious inequity.

It may work a little or a lot.  No one can say for sure.  But if you don't try, for sure you won't get relief.

[Heartandsole]

hi heartandsole. i'm really sorry you're in this mess. i would only emphasize from the excellent advice you're received above to approach this methodically (not in a panic), to approach this legally (not emotionally) and to keep your own interests in view at all times. i'd think the court would look for quantifiable stuff: in the valuation of your business, logic and math will (well, should) trump delusion and emotion.

A lot of us come out of these marriages with very weak boundaries and that muscle hurts when we start using it. But it's the muscle you need most right now. The biggest mistake I made in the financial part of my divorce is thinking that if I gave my ex the house, he would settle down and I could move on. That isn't how it works with entitled people. You give them something, they want more. So think about boundaries as minimizing conflict for you. She might have a fit and rage at you, but the boundary is there as a safeguard to make sure she knows that your backbone is in place.

A couple of other random thoughts:

Also, is there any reason why you can't pick someone to evaluate your company who will only do the bare minimum? You want it evaluated low, yes?

Find out if you have to pay 100% of the legal fees. In my case, it is only ever a portion that the judge determines.

As much as possible, stop texting/emailing her and assume she is not going to be reasonable. Go silent and find out from your L what the consequences are of now responding to her, and whether you need to worry about her utilities, etc.

It's a new day. Pretty soon you won't be responsible for her, and it's ok to start practicing now.

Wow, I know now I went INTO this marriage without knowing What the heck a boundary was.  I am grateful to know now the reasons I got stuck in this mess, and working on excercising that boundary muscle.  That is why I am so torn between standing up for myself and against what I see as unfair, and still scraping off the last vestiges of guilt that keep me being a "nice guy".  How to be kind without being seen as weak, and a nice guy without turning into a doormat is really difficult, especially with my uBPDex because of 15 years of conditioning.  I am working on it, and realistically it's probably impossible to change the dynamic in this relationship, but I have my eyes open at least.  I am definitely practicing!

The point is that you don't just acquiesce to her every demand or claim.  Yes, the judge may side with her on some issues but you won't know until you counter her claims with strong points and hear the judge's decision.  The difference is that you just can feel defeated before you even get into court and passively accept whatever happens... .or you can be proactive and give a vigorous defense for your position that she is already more than capable, able to work but just choose to do only a little here and there.

You need to be assertive.  Proactive.  No judge will do your work for you.  No judge will deny her demands just because the judge thinks they're unreasonable.  For example if she demands $3K per month and judge looks at you and you and L stay silent, then the judge could very well grant it.  However, if you counter her every demand with reasons why it isn't needed, isn't appropriate, etc, then at least you will walk out knowing you've done all you could to get a better outcome.

Another variation... .Say she wants as much alimony as she can for long as she can.  You need to tell the judge, "Your honor, she worked for X years as AAAA even during the marriage, then I paid for her to learn BBBB, then I paid for her to learn CCCC.  She is fully capable of working, no other typical obligations such as caring for children, etc.  During our marriage she even worked for X years.  She worked now and then during the marriage with the training I paid for.  In fact, even since we've separated she's been working and a recent paycheck was a huge $SSSS.  She is qualified for up to 3 different types of jobs or careers.  Perhaps she may merit some very limited support but to rule that she as a spouse was not able to work would be an abuse of the law's intent.  Her actual work history and/or her imputed ability to work should be considered."

Add to that what is reasonable support - you living on a couch in your parent's spare room while she lives in the house you're paying for and is still unsold - and the judge should adjust for the obvious inequity.

It may work a little or a lot.  No one can say for sure.  But if you don't try, for sure you won't get relief.

Assertive and Proactive definitely need to be my Mantra.  It is so easy to look the other way or try to look towards the backside of this stuff and the new life afterwards... .especially on New Years Eve! 

An interesting twist to my case is that the judge I was assigned to is retiring, and the new Judge that is getting transferred in from another area has ZERO family law experience.  Also, my lawyer has no history with this judge to know how he/she thinks, so it is harder for my L to counsel me on things. 

I think I will have to get the business evaluated, that is going to be expensive.  Just yesterday my uBPD/NPDstbex told me that in addition to a business evaluator, she will force me to hire the forensic auditor to dig through all my personal business, trusts, brokerage accounts, wills etc, depose me and my family etc. to make sure I didn't co-mingle funds etc.  Oh joy!



Ok here is what I'd like to get some feedback on today... .

I have been struggling with continuing to support her because I am trying not to have bitterness and animosity, I just want to move on.  I have been justifying this because I was hoping to not kick a sleeping bear and then have to negotiate with it.  It is clear now that negotiation is not going to work and I can just stop any temporary support until a judge tells me to.  I feel like an a$$ doing this, and it might put a bad first impression on a judge if I do that.  Kinda feels like financial bullying for me to stop support, and also if feels like I am caving into blackmail or just rolling over and being weak if I keep paying for everything.

[Forestaken]

You need to be assertive.  Proactive.  No judge will do your work for you.  No judge will deny her demands just because the judge thinks they're unreasonable.  For example if she demands $3K per month and judge looks at you and you and L stay silent, then the judge could very well grant it.  However, if you counter her every demand with reasons why it isn't needed, isn't appropriate, etc, then at least you will walk out knowing you've done all you could to get a better outcome.

It may work a little or a lot.  No one can say for sure.  But if you don't try, for sure you won't get relief.

In my case, my L never got a chance to speak.

Deadbeat dad ahead of us then a Female J, Female L, Female Client.  We were ready - weeks of prepping.  But I'll never forget:

1) Her L spoke

2) J made a decision

3) My L tried to speak

4) J told my L "I already decided"

[livednlearned]

Wow, I know now I went INTO this marriage without knowing What the heck a boundary was.  I am grateful to know now the reasons I got stuck in this mess, and working on excercising that boundary muscle.  That is why I am so torn between standing up for myself and against what I see as unfair, and still scraping off the last vestiges of guilt that keep me being a "nice guy".  How to be kind without being seen as weak, and a nice guy without turning into a doormat is really difficult, especially with my uBPDex because of 15 years of conditioning.  I am working on it, and realistically it's probably impossible to change the dynamic in this relationship, but I have my eyes open at least.  I am definitely practicing!

Every small boundary counts -- sometimes it's easy to start by setting minor ones with strangers, and then work up to coworkers. Then friends. Then family. Intimate partners are the hardest, in my experience. Use your L as much as you can to set boundaries with your wife. That's what you're paying them for! Let your L take the full brunt of her extinction burst.

It's excellent that you're aware of this. And you can have boundaries and be a nice guy, you really can. Boundaries, setting them -- that's being assertive, not aggressive. It often feels aggressive to those of us who were conditioned to roll over for other people, and we equate rolling over with being nice. But you matter. Especially during a divorce. Be kind to you. And don't feel guilty about it! You might think that having no boundaries makes you a good guy, but I'm dating a guy who was like that, and when he has a boundary about something, I find it to be a huge relief. I don't have to guess, he'll just say no when he can't do something.

Boundaries are the best.  

I think I will have to get the business evaluated, that is going to be expensive.  Just yesterday my uBPD/NPDstbex told me that in addition to a business evaluator, she will force me to hire the forensic auditor to dig through all my personal business, trusts, brokerage accounts, wills etc, depose me and my family etc. to make sure I didn't co-mingle funds etc.  Oh joy!

She realizes that these expenses will lower her settlement, right?  

And great that she wants a forensic auditor, that will make it easy to find out how much money she has made.

I have been struggling with continuing to support her because I am trying not to have bitterness and animosity, I just want to move on.  I have been justifying this because I was hoping to not kick a sleeping bear and then have to negotiate with it.  It is clear now that negotiation is not going to work and I can just stop any temporary support until a judge tells me to.  I feel like an a$$ doing this, and it might put a bad first impression on a judge if I do that.  Kinda feels like financial bullying for me to stop support, and also if feels like I am caving into blackmail or just rolling over and being weak if I keep paying for everything.

I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't necessarily meaningful in other courts or states. But I've been in court 60+ times over the past 4 years and listened to a lot of cases in family court while waiting for mine. Most judges stick very close to the rule book when it comes to the financial stuff. It's the custody cases where things go into the gray zone, especially DV cases and child abuse.

Most people don't continue to pay for the living expenses of the person they are divorcing. You're in the minority, from what I can tell. No judge is going to fault you for getting her to cover her own expenses right now, especially when she pulled in some money. Offer to pay the mortgage, she covers everything else. Her own phone, own heat, own electricity, water. She's living there, she pays. What you need to figure out is if it's customary to give her back-pay for spousal support between the time you filed and the divorce decree when she starts getting alimony. Often it's not, but it kind of gets worked out in the settlement in other ways. And find out too if you are responsible for any purchases or debt she accrues now. If you don't have any debt, it's a good idea to shut down those credit cards.

Be aware too that lawyers have a tendency to throw money around like it was leaves during settlements. My family gifted me $10K when my grandfather died, and they just brushed it aside. So ask for more than what you expect -- there will be a lot of classic negotiation that goes on, even around alimony. Offer something very low, and no money for school. No living expenses. And if you plan to sell or refi the house, talk to people here so you have as much control as possible. In my experience, that's where things can get really drawn out. The judge has no idea how many points of obstruction are present in a home sale, same with lawyers. So you need to bring your A game for the house.

[ForeverDad]

And you can have boundaries and be a nice guy, you really can. Boundaries, setting them -- that's being assertive, not aggressive. It often feels aggressive to those of us who were conditioned to roll over for other people, and we equate rolling over with being nice. But you matter. Especially during a divorce. Be kind to you. And don't feel guilty about it! You might think that having no boundaries makes you a good guy, but I'm dating a guy who was like that, and when he has a boundary about something, I find it to be a huge relief. I don't have to guess, he'll just say no when he can't do something.

Boundaries are the best. 

I think I will have to get the business evaluated, that is going to be expensive.  Just yesterday my uBPD/NPDstbex told me that in addition to a business evaluator, she will force me to hire the forensic auditor to dig through all my personal business, trusts, brokerage accounts, wills etc, depose me and my family etc. to make sure I didn't co-mingle funds etc.  Oh joy!

She realizes that these expenses will lower her settlement, right?   

And great that she wants a forensic auditor, that will make it easy to find out how much money she has made.

I have been struggling with continuing to support her because I am trying not to have bitterness and animosity, I just want to move on.  I have been justifying this because I was hoping to not kick a sleeping bear and then have to negotiate with it.  It is clear now that negotiation is not going to work and I can just stop any temporary support until a judge tells me to.  I feel like an a$$ doing this, and it might put a bad first impression on a judge if I do that.  Kinda feels like financial bullying for me to stop support, and also if feels like I am caving into blackmail or just rolling over and being weak if I keep paying for everything.

I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't necessarily meaningful in other courts or states. But I've been in court 60+ times over the past 4 years and listened to a lot of cases in family court while waiting for mine. Most judges stick very close to the rule book when it comes to the financial stuff. It's the custody cases where things go into the gray zone, especially DV cases and child abuse.

Most people don't continue to pay for the living expenses of the person they are divorcing. You're in the minority, from what I can tell. No judge is going to fault you for getting her to cover her own expenses right now, especially when she pulled in some money. Offer to pay the mortgage, she covers everything else. Her own phone, own heat, own electricity, water. She's living there, she pays. What you need to figure out is if it's customary to give her back-pay for spousal support between the time you filed and the divorce decree when she starts getting alimony. Often it's not, but it kind of gets worked out in the settlement in other ways. And find out too if you are responsible for any purchases or debt she accrues now. If you don't have any debt, it's a good idea to shut down those credit cards.

Be aware too that lawyers have a tendency to throw money around like it was leaves during settlements. My family gifted me $10K when my grandfather died, and they just brushed it aside. So ask for more than what you expect -- there will be a lot of classic negotiation that goes on, even around alimony. Offer something very low, and no money for school. No living expenses. And if you plan to sell or refi the house, talk to people here so you have as much control as possible. In my experience, that's where things can get really drawn out. The judge has no idea how many points of obstruction are present in a home sale, same with lawyers. So you need to bring your A game for the house.

Being a Nice Guy or Nice Gal is not the problem, it's when you're "always no matter what" the Nice Guy or Nice Gal.  Nice does not mean weak or compliant boundaries.  So when dealing with people who will trample boundaries, you need firm defenses.  Better late than never.

Read up on Extinction Bursts.  You are not as compliant as you once were and she doesn't like it, that's why you're facing an upsurge in her emotionally overwhelming but logically empty demands and ultimatums.  She doesn't like the new you, she wants you to shrink back to the old, compliant, docile, muddy doormat, Whipping Boy, enabler, appeaser you.

Don't kick yourself for trying to avoid enraging the beast, you had to at least try, we all did too, it was worth a shot.  However, now that you know she will not go quietly, having and displaying firm boundaries of what you will or won't do - based solidly on appropriateness and general principles - is the right way to go.  Anything less, any weakness shown, and she will feel enabled to keep trying.  Yes, she will keep trying anyway but at least stand up for yourself.  The court will not criticize or punish you for standing up for yourself.

Sit down, ponder what you think is a reasonable division that the court might accept and have that as your firm boundary.  What you offer to her should be less so that you have some negotiating room, something to add and yet still have it be reasonable.  Below is my imaginary lawyer letter to entitled ex.  Probably something like this would never be sent, but it gives you an idea of various positions you can take.  She might be smart enough to discern that continuing her excessive demands risks reducing what she might get.  Maybe.

Dear Ms StbEx,

My client has tried for many months to be more than fair with you while separating and unwinding the marriage.  However this approach by seeking a mutual agreement has not succeeded.  The house is still not sold.  You are requesting far more from the value of my client's business than what is remotely accurate or realistic.  You are seeking things and monies that aren't marital assets.  We would like to resolve this equitably but that hasn't happened.

Below are the terms we are offering.  While you may feel entitled to the lions share, that is not how the court will see it.

There are no children requiring support.  You are fully capable of a selection of careers (teaching, realtor and perhaps others), you can earn money if you choose to work.  My client has no obligation to pay for you to choose yet another career path.  Therefore this will be presented to the court and the court will be asked to consider these facts and impute your income potential when calculating division of marital assets and support.

You filed for divorce in September yet no progress has been made on selling the major joint asset, the house.  We will ask the court for the house to be sold promptly and the proceeds minus prep and sale expenses to be held in escrow awaiting the division of marital assets.  It would be best for both spouses to have that done sooner than later.  In anticipation of the sale, my client has already vacated, we will ask the court that you also vacate promptly so that a showing and sale will not risk further delay.  If you wish to handle the sale, we will ask the court to set a schedule for each step so compliance can be assured.  Since my client has been paying the house related expenses, he will ask the court that he be reimbursed those expenses incurred since his exit and divorce filing as credit when calculating the division of marital assets.  If it takes longer for you to vacate and the house to be sold, then (1) the request for reimbursement of post-filing house expenses from marital assets will be similarly larger and (2) my client will ask the court to assign him to sell the house.

You have stated that you want extensive claims and monetary requests against my client's personal assets as well as the marital and other assets.  My client believes many to be excessive, frivolous or invasive of others' lives.  Please be informed we will ask the court that all expenses related to the hiring of experts, professionals and additional lawyers, be paid for from either your portion of marital funds or from the marital funds in general.  In other words, my client will not volunteer to pay for searches for money that isn't there, that doesn't exist or that aren't generally considered to be marital assets, we will ask that any such expenses be deducted from either whatever money you receive or from what is split between you.  We will ask for the court or appointed expert to rule against any search requests that are excessive or outside the normal scope of a divorce.  While he may have to pay some costs up front, we will ask the court for equivalent reimbursement or credit from marital assets before the remainder of marital assets is divided.

Any request you make regarding claims, searches, etc, we will reciprocate and ask of you similarly so there is fair and full, not one-sided, disclosure.

It might be advantageous to consider our attached offer to settle the issues before more expenses drain the marital assets more than they've already been impacted.  If not accepted then this offer will be withdrawn after two weeks and we will seek resolution with the court.  Be aware that the delays and expenses of court-related issues can impact the final total of marital assets to be split.

Thank you for your attention to this matter,

H&S L

[maxen]

I think I will have to get the business evaluated, that is going to be expensive.  Just yesterday my uBPD/NPDstbex told me that in addition to a business evaluator, she will force me to hire the forensic auditor to dig through all my personal business, trusts, brokerage accounts, wills etc, depose me and my family etc. to make sure I didn't co-mingle funds etc.  Oh joy!

She realizes that these expenses will lower her settlement, right?  

And great that she wants a forensic auditor, that will make it easy to find out how much money she has made.

see Heartandsole, right there are two examples (out of many others in l'n'l's post) of what i call thinking in your own interests. immediately after my w bolted, i was incapable of this. i was terrorized for a good year about what my wife might do to my finances, on top of what she had done to my brain. it was impossible for me to look at her situation rationally and realize that there were places where i might have the upper hand. it was only after we exchanged SNWs that i realized otoh how freakin' much money i could lose, but otoh i saw what a wreckage she had made of her own life - she was approaching bankruptcy - and how badly she might want a settlement. since i was divorcing her, it was up to me to make a first offer and i made one that was blatantly in my own favor and ... .she took it. no negotiations even. i could never have imagined it would end that way. unfortunately i can't say that things will turn out that way for everybody, but remember,

The point is that you don't just acquiesce to her every demand or claim.  Yes, the judge may side with her on some issues but you won't know until you counter her claims with strong points and hear the judge's decision.

btw

Kinda feels like financial bullying for me to stop support

and?