Any ideas how to deal with core shame?

[AnnaK]

As I have advanced in validation and learned to talk in projections, we have moved forward in our relationship, and I am beginning to really understand my partner. And he becomes aware of it.

At this point, a lot of shame has become obvious. Core shame is at heart of BPD, so nothing abnormal as such.

How it's manifested:

"I hate you!"

"I can't live with you!"

"I don't deserve you!"

"Please, don't come back into this misery!" (I hop between countries now, so I leave and come back at regular intervals)

"What do I do?" (desperate, in the middle of intimate moment)

etc. etc.

How do I deal with the core shame, any clues?

PS: the anger has reduced substantially, but the shame has taken its place. I feel like I know him real now, but by gods, how much he is ashamed of being real

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[Grey Kitty]

  AnnaK!

It was already locked when I saw your thread on the end of your visit to India. Sorry it ended up with such a mess.

How do you deal with his core shame? You don't. He has to deal with it. In addition, I believe you want to be his lover, not his therapist. You really can't be both at the same time.

You can support him as he deals his core shame.

I'd suggest the normal tools for dealing with a pwBPD, like validation apply pretty well here.

This is a sign of progress... .and expect it to be two steps forward, one step back. That he's seeing and speaking to the core shame is something he has to do before he can really address it. Previously, he wasn't able to do that, and found things like anger to keep him from having to even acknowledge it.

[AnnaK]

Don't be sorry for the mess, my previous visit to India also ended with incident of violence, so I believe we are developing a tradition of beating each other before separations. Abandonment fears, nothing to be done

I am glad that you consider it the sign of progress... .there is indeed much less anger now, and much more shame.

Before he was more on the point "You are not good enough to be with me!" (and I was like : hmm? really? )

Now he criticises me much less, but he's hiding and pushing me away, but not as much as it used to be... .when fished out, he is much less angry, but looks like he is dealing with very painful feelings of not being a worthy human being (and a conflict between his abandonment fears and being unworthy of being with me). He even cries, when I am telling him that I am going to stay with him anyway stuff stuff... .what do I tell to the person I love, when he comes and tells something like "please, I have a request for you - please leave me, because I don't deserve you" ?

However, I can relate, because I remember times when it was reversed - I was badly obese, so I was dealing with very similar feelings... .ironically with this same guy hanging around, telling me that I am too fat for him to live with (and still living with me!). I agreed I was too fat for him, but I could not understand why he is living with me then... .during his dramatic walkouts because of me being fat, I even offered to find him a room and once offered him money for the hotel!

Later I asked him if he was living with me just because he had no other place to live, and he said: "hey, I am not impaired!"

Eventually he left for India, and I went no-contact, because... .ugh well, I wanted a better life for him than the fat me... .I did not know what is no-contact, but I did it instinctively, so it pretty much ended our first attempt to have an affair. We only recycled in 5 years, when I dealt with my issues and was well on my way of losing weight.

Yes, obviously he is aware of his shame, although he does not know it's called "core shame".

It was initially very hard for me to relate to this, because... .well, he has a lot of problems, but I was very far from considering him an unworthy human being... .moreover, maybe it's because of love thing, but I considered him a very worthy human being ... .not surprisingly... .so that turn around from "you don't deserve me" to "I don't deserve you" initially caught me aback

I was like - what? you? how can someone that attractive to me, believe yourself to be an unworthy human being?

Well, my intuition is telling me to start telling him that while he is obviously imperfect in some respects (like alcoholism), there still remain genuine good qualities that can attract people to him (like myself for example)... .I dealt with my shame in somewhat similar way... .and after I stopped feeling ashamed for being myself, I pretty much lost all the excessive weight too.

Yeah... .I should probably validate that he is feeling unworthy because of drinking that much, and also because he feels incapable of taking responsibility of me - and he thinks he must (although if honestly, I am not a child and I don't know why suddenly some other person should take responsibility for me, when I am already adult and lived on my own quite happily for the last 10 years)

Yes, I am of course his lover, but somehow it happens I end up being his therapist and my own too... .I seem to have complementary problems - like my own anger used to be blocked out, so our first fights he had to do on his own, me staring in surprise, but then I also learned how to feel angry and I find it good for me ... .

Besides I do have to deal with it, because if honestly, I don't really want a hopeless alcoholic for a husband  He has to deal with his alcoholism somehow - not right away, not as an ultimatum, but sooner or later... .

[AnnaK]

Main thing is, that if passing from anger to shame is progress, then I am perfectly right in refusing to grant his so called "request" to leave him because he is so unworthy... .

I took tickets back to india regardless of his unexplained requests to "not come back" (not many reasons were given). I have no clue what will happen next, but I suspect it is for the better if I don't leave him as he kinda requests (but not consistently)

For the sake of experiment, I once told him he is right, so I am granting his request and I won't come back - but he was so hurt that he immediately retaliated me by bringing the third girl (this is when violence happened).

I noticed other signs that he really HOPES that I'd come back, but does not dare to admit it. Such as when I said I can't take tickets while he is "busy blocking me" - that same night he unblocked me and never blocked ever since.

When I called him to tell I took tickets, he started talking "please don't come back" - but I said "I already bought tickets". And then he just hanged up, as he usually does when he is overwhelmed.

[AnnaK]

But from what I remember from my own problems 7 years ago, I was immensely surprised why this guy, in my eyes so "normal" in all respects... .well, he used to be drunk all day long, got into bar fights, criticised me, yelled at me and did dramatic walkouts on me - but at least he was not FAT - such was my logic of those times... .so I was very surprised why he was even living with me :D

And although I was pushing him away quite a lot (because wasn't I such a disgustingly fat person?), in other times I would give up and have him near me (it felt like I was stealing good time I did not deserve)... . and I appreciated a lot his staying... .little I knew then about his own problems

I did not fight with him because I did not know how to fight... .he would fight, then walk out, but I would just stare, unsure how to react - then I'd run after him and offer him help/money in finding the hotel... .because if he can't live with me, he should not really live on the street, right? ... .he later said, it was "incorrect"

Moreover, I was concerned about my inability to "open up" enough to fight with my friends/boyfriends (I never had a single fight with anyone), so I was scratching my neck, trying to figure out how it happened that I managed to "open up" sufficiently for us to have Real Scandal (first in my adult life, perhaps)... .only later I understood I still was not fighting - he was totally self-sufficient... .back in 2008 and initially after our recycle in 2013... .he was totally self-sufficient in fighting... .but well, stupid I am not, eventually by trial and error and by copying his anger, and by using empathy - I learned - both to FEEL angry and what to DO about it (initially I was plain copying his body postures - but then I found my unique ways to express it)

I literally mirrored both his anger and ways to express it (including physical violence), because in my family I have no other acceptable role model for anger... .and well, of anger he has lots... .so I thought he might share a little with me

Initially it was really hilarios. He would be yelling, and I would just look at him, trying to suppress a wish to giggle... .thinking something irrelevant like "oh, well, male yelling is very different from female yelling - the guy has strong voice, could have been an opera singer... ."

Then some time after that, he'd invade my personal space chest forward, fists clenched. I was staring at him thinking "okay, my personal space is invaded, so it must be the sign of aggression... .well, he does not look like he is going to punch me right now, so it's symbolic aggression... .okay, let me just stand my ground... .ah, right, he is yelling at my face... .I don't know why I have to yell what I have to say - I could have just said it, no? - but let me try to yell something back. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? Ooh, look, my voice is good too, I am over-yelling him! "

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds like you learned a LOT about how to find and express your emotions from him. 

I'm going to suggest that you have probably learned all you can from his 'good' examples. (You may learn more of what not to do or how to handle difficult situations from him the hard way still)

Physical fighting, or yelling at somebody *IS* a useful skill to have. I wouldn't recommend you go back to being unable to do either. I would recommend that you try to learn ways of resolving conflicts that don't require these things though!

Other examples of how to behave or other teachers will probably help you here. You seem to be growing to a capacity beyond him.

[AnnaK]

Yeah, you got it just right. I learned a lot about anger, but also many other emotions.

And yes, I am myself beginning to think that while the skill is good to have, punching people in the face as a method of expressing anger might have certain practical problems

Luckily, i have not picked up also his anger-management problem, so I am still free in choosing more appropriate way of expression... .

[AnnaK]

That is, to the point if it is always necessary to "run" from BPD... .

Sometimes one man's garbage is another man's treasure... .while my bf is upset at his anger-control problems and tendency to lash out, I was totally fascinated by that skill... .

While he was telling me that punching people is bad... .I would ask him: "so... .you punch someone... .JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE ANGRY?" - he confirmed, and it seemed totally incredible to me.

So I also tried, him being my "victim" (who else?) - specially that he is talented in creating situations when going fist fighting is... .well, the most adequate human reaction. And you know - it does feel very good

Interesting enough, after he drives me to the point of physical aggression, he calms down and becomes a peace-maker.

I am not really losing control as it perhaps seems to him (for me it was a controlled experiment),  so I am totally capable of observing and remembering the tiny details, consequences and implications (and I do it with great interest as before I never had this type of situations).

After we had a physical fight before my departure, he instantly lost his "attitude", his words started to make sense, he became polite, sorted out his girlfriends into different rooms (the girl refused to leave our house), told me that "I am not going to sleep with her!", ordered food for everyone... .and in general, turned into an ideal man and dealt with the absurd situation as efficiently as possible.

That's not a normal reaction to physical fight, is it?

I also used to observe in Barcelona that getting into bar fight used to make him into a nice guy... .for some time. Even then I used to tell him ironically that getting beaten seems to work miracles on his mind... .he gets sober and calm... .and if he might need me to punch him from time to time in a safe way, as a method of maintaining the peace of mind? (joking I was, of course)

Also when we were buying boxing gloves, we happened to punch each other right in the shop (in front of the shocked shop assistent)... .and he suddenly mentioned that "it feels good, releases the pressure". I was not sure if he was referring to punching me or getting punched back.

It does feel good though, even to me... .but hmmm?

And I don't know, if my previous stay did not go to the point of extreme just because the first thing I did was buying him a pair of boxing gloves (I brought mine with me), so we were boxing at regular intervals. This time he was injured all the time though and could not box.

And in spring, once he invited me to box after a verbal fight. And he told me the strangest thing ever: "I want a beating". ... .hmmm?

I came and realised he was not blocking nor ducking.

So I punched him a couple of times (controlled way, and using gloves), then sent him to sleep as he was quite drunk.

So if honestly, i felt like he was seeking a "beating" for the entire last month... .he was asking me why I did not confront him because of his cheating etc. etc.  Something was bothering him very much, most probably shame... .I had a very strong impression, that he wanted someone to beat him so that he could stop beating himself.

[Grey Kitty]

I sure wouldn't call his behavior "normal". I'd say it is even farther from "healthy"!

"Normal" domestic violence is a way to control the other partner. The typical pattern there is to be particularly nice after beating your partner badly, even promising to be nice / repent / stop / never do it again... .and a while later, it comes back. The "Normal" pattern is one of escalating violence and control over time, starting with little things, becoming verbal, and finally physical, getting more and more damaging over time.

What I've read of pwBPD being abusive on these boards mostly fits this pattern. Many members address it just as it starts to get physical or perhaps it never does or never would get to that level.

I'm going to jump at two conclusions here:

1. His "need to be beaten" is his way of coping with his core shame or other emotions he can't deal with. It doesn't sound like a particularly healthy coping mechanism. (And all you can do about it is decide if beating him up is something you choose to do or not.)

2. Resolving a conflict with another human being (besides this guy!) by escalating to physical violence is likely to get yourself in jail. Do NOT transfer this lesson to anybody else!

Being aware of your anger is a good lesson. Stopping long enough to decide what to do with that feeling before you punch somebody or even yell at them is the next lesson!

[AnnaK]

Yeah, I was reading and laughing.

Well, I am very aware of the pattern. I read all I could on domestic violence - I want to live with this guy, but I don't want to become a battered wife.

In truth, the pattern is there... .was there. Just I messed it up and it was gone

I caught red flags of batterer during our recycle, when we lived together in the hotel room - it was still notorious "honeymoon" period. The guy kept saying that he "never hit anyone except in the ring", so it means he is a nice guy. At the same time he has a drinking problem, complains of anger control problems and... .he is ex-boxer. Besides he told me how his father was beating his mother and his brother (but never him).

Besides he told me his family complains he gets drunk and beats them (they say it, of course, because they all hate him, but in truth he never ever beats anyone, he is a nice guy). Besides on other occasion he told me he once hit his brother so hard that the guy had to spend a month in bed. And once he pushed his father so hard that he fell and also got some injury. However he is still a nice guy, because they started first (and perhaps they do!).

He told me about many incidents of throwing things. I remember one story: "I woke up on the sofa in the living room, it was morning, and the smell of the old food on the table irritated me... .so I got up and started throwing the dishes with the food into the wall... .then my parents ran in attracted by the noise and they both started yelling at me that I don't earn for that food so I should not throw it into the wall... ."... .I thought : crazy house - no less, each and every one.

Besides, when waking up after being drunk, he would look at me with scared eyes and ask: "did I do something wrong?"

When once I got a stomachache, he woke up and after I complained, he asked the strangest question: "was it me?"

Besides in the conversations when he was saying "he beat her black-and-blue" his face had such an expression... .as if he was dreaming about something romantic... .

He was trying to be slightly violent during sexual activities too (not against my wish, I don't mind)

So red flags were screaming.

So I decided I will still try to live with the guy  - so I started martial arts right after our "honeymoon period".

It was a year before I came to India next time. I had already some boxing level by then, so the first thing I did was buying him boxing gloves and we started boxing. Initially "beating" me in the ring gave him certain pride for beating his girlfriend and solved his fears/desires to beat me up "black-n-blue", but then he got used to it and stopped caring.

Initially I was not sure about my fighting skills so I set the boundary about not touching me in anger (without gloves) and he obeyed.

Only asked: "but I may in gloves, right?". Right.

However soon it stopped being natural (he complained "you took away my gestures!" and I felt the exact same thing), so I lifted the boundary and waited what next. He threw a straw chair at me. I did nothing about it. In a week, just before I was leaving, he hit me on the back with his fist (not painfully).

He was very scared, when he realised he hit me, threw me out of the house and... .I left to Spain.

I barely managed to pull him out of his state of self-beating (by the phone, from Spain).

All the while, the verbal abuse was escalating, but I was enduring. No, he does not apologise for verbal abuse, only for violence.

When I returned, abuse of all sorts escalated. The "non-hitting boundary" was removed and I waited what will happen next.

Finally, once we had a bad fight about money (I was refusing to give him money I brought because he refused me necessary help in settling in India, and I don't even have a car)

In the morning he walked into my room and started requesting money. I refused. He said - give me money or I'll beat you with the shoe.

I was lying in bed, so I prepared my legs and hands and touched him on the shoulder by my toe. Immediately, he charged at me, trying to punch me in the face. However, I was prepared and with kicks, drove him out of boxing range. I was not kicking painfully, but I was skilful enough for him to be unable to reach me. Eventually he gave up, rolled into defensive position to protect his face and belly from my kicks and suggested to discuss what happened.

Well, he claims not remembering this episode, but I told it to him in the smallest detail.

Verbal abuse continued, and he still had urges to punch me in anger (but suppressed them)

Once when he was drunk and called my mother and father prostitutes. I warned him to not do it again, but in a second he came back and repeated his words. I lost my patience and slapped him real well, just once.

I am not sure if he remembers, but I also told him about it in the morning.

I also told him he must be crazy, trying to abuse the girl who used to fight 5 times a week in the gym in Spain (it was true).

Next morning... .don't laugh... .I discovered a HAMMER on the fridge. I said - I hid your hammer in the drawer. He said - I am capable of anything! I said - I am not afraid of you, but of myself - if I lose my cool and if I see the hammer, who can tell what comes to my mind? And if you are drunk - I will be faster. Later I discovered that he moved the hammer close to his bed.

That discovery pretty much made me lose all my anger and start laughing. I assured him that he does not need to sleep with the hammer... .I don't see any joy or pleasure in beating him!

Since  then, he was verbally polite to me and I have never noticed any "punching impulse" in him, although he complains that he can't live with someone with the "temper" like mine - and that I am not "feminine enough" (but I retort, that if I become too feminine, I'll most probably get a blue eye, which is not a good motivation to be feminine)

All in all, I feel he now respects me, so the open abuse stopped (he still tries to hurt me "emotionally" by other methods)

To say something else, he also tried to control me in what was obviously a habitual way, saying "either follow me or I'll punch you!" - but I looked at him as if he was an idiot and said "all right, then I'll punch you back". He said: "you won't dare!". But I shrugged : "come on, I do it daily in the gym!"

Then another time he tried to threaten that "agree or I'll punch you!" - but I said : "All right, then I'll punch you back, then you punch me back, then we'll be punching each other... .do we have ice for bruises in the fridge?... .so after applying the ice on each other, we'll get back to this very same conversation exactly where we stopped... ."

He thought about it and decided it's better to continue the conversation without boxing in between.

Ah, after he started to take hammer to bed, we also made a written agreement not to beat each other in the process of resolving household issues :D Among other things :D I swear he was relieved to have this agreement!

The hammer still lies forgotten in his room, but he does not seem to be afraid of me anymore :D

So the pattern got totally messed up and I think by now it only remains as a joke... .or occasional self-expression... .no harm is usually done... .

[AnnaK]

I sure wouldn't call his behavior "normal". I'd say it is even farther from "healthy"!

"Normal" domestic violence is a way to control the other partner. The typical pattern there is to be particularly nice after beating your partner badly, even promising to be nice / repent / stop / never do it again... .and a while later, it comes back. The "Normal" pattern is one of escalating violence and control over time, starting with little things, becoming verbal, and finally physical, getting more and more damaging over time.

What I've read of pwBPD being abusive on these boards mostly fits this pattern. Many members address it just as it starts to get physical or perhaps it never does or never would get to that level.

I'm going to jump at two conclusions here:

1. His "need to be beaten" is his way of coping with his core shame or other emotions he can't deal with. It doesn't sound like a particularly healthy coping mechanism. (And all you can do about it is decide if beating him up is something you choose to do or not.)

2. Resolving a conflict with another human being (besides this guy!) by escalating to physical violence is likely to get yourself in jail. Do NOT transfer this lesson to anybody else!

Being aware of your anger is a good lesson. Stopping long enough to decide what to do with that feeling before you punch somebody or even yell at them is the next lesson!

1. Well, I see nothing specially wrong in fighting, wrestling or beating each other within reason (in fact this type of rough physical contact feels good), but obviously I am not going to harm him or injure him.

2. Yes, of course I understand that violence is generally unacceptable. However, it does not seem to happen to me that I would like to beat someone on the street. Although I did get slightly angrier and more assertive than i was before - I still rarely get angry, and so far it never happened that it would get out of control or that I would get an urge to punch someone. With other people, even to the point of yelling, I get maybe once a year or less

[AnnaK]

PS: I usually don't specially blame him should any kind of abuse happen, nor do I request apologies, to avoid feeding the cycle.

I have no illusions about his empathy level - he is severely impaired in his ability of understanding and feeling compassion for other human beings.

So I am trying to find reasons why, say, beating me is inefficient, impractical and potentially damaging FOR HIM method to resolve household issues. That usually works.

Beating me is indeed very impractical - it's easier to kill me than to dominate me that way... .and killing me is not recommended because it will only get him to jail.

Not to mention that we match in height, weight and perhaps skills - and I will most probably defend, which can result in comparable injuries to us both.

[AnnaK]

So the end result.  

Regardless of all those red flags of the batterer, most of the time we are having a caring, equal and respectful relationship... .that I would even call healthy. It's not like he would be apologising or anything... .it's more like we are two runaway kids, a good thing to have.

Which is generally strange connection to have with a potential batterer, but I seem to have sorted it out... .

There is also some simulated violence, like careful slaps, shoving and pushing each other, but with care and jokingly. It seems to address well his early trauma from father beating mother... .and I like this kinda style too.

But I noticed - he generally considers other females inferior human beings... .that is partially why he can't attach to them.

But except me... .and I suppose that he started to have that respect for me when he realised that I am capable of fighting him as an equal... .after I slapped him the first time... .that same moment all abuse stopped. It's strange (I remind - i am just a peaceful software developer,  quite a non-violent thing generally), but whatever works, right?

[AnnaK]

In the very beginning, I also happened to hear the infamous phrase "But I yell at you because you provoke me by talking back!"

Then I started teasing him saying that if he wants to talk like a radio, he may, but if I am not "talking back", that can hardly be called a conversation. It probably worked, because the phrase stopped.

He also used to get very upset when I would disagree with him... .even on the abstract issues, he seemed to desire absolute agreement... .we had a bad, ugly (verbal) fight once and almost broke up, when I said that rupee is not following golden standard, and he said that it does... .he took it as personal insult!

After that I sat him down and tried to figure out why he takes disagreements as insults. It was somehow that if I don't absolutely agree with him on every single issue, it means that I am kinda betraying him or not loving him or separating from him or something. Abandonment, no less.  I had to explain that it's not like that - just my mind is a different "computer" and it has different data, and by processing this data, it occasionally gets a different answer from what his mind gets... .that I am telling him this answer that I get from my mind, it has nothing to do with loving or not loving him... .he understood.

By now it became closer to normal. The most weird things are gone... .