Odd Projection last night

[formflier]

 

I think the "don't care about sex" statement should be looked at as well.

Maybe drop the entire thing... .since it could be triggering.

Plus... .you want to make sure what you say is truthful... and what you really feel.  I don't think the statement "don't care about sex" would ring true to him... .

Thoughts?

I'll put my disclaimer in here... .I've only tried dearman once or twice... .I don't really remember details... .I reverted to SET... .or SE SE SET.

I am very interested in learning about dearman... .and getting better

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ColdEthyl]

I'll warn you--I've never tried this, but here's my suggestions:

D: I am concerned about your health. I would like to see you get seen by a doctor to make sure nothing serious is going on.

You are starting with the solution here (see a doctor) where you are supposed to just describe the problem. "Wanting him to see a doctor" is not a fact that you are reacting to; it is your reaction.

E: I love you, and I want you to be healthy. I don't care about sex, I care about you. This is hard for me to talk about because I'm worried about making you feel worse than you already do. I know this is difficult for you, and I am sorry we are going through this.

(I try to throw a bit of empathy in there, so he understands that I am aware this is terrible for him. I also try to use "we" instead of "you" or "I" when I can so he understand we are a team)

I think the empathy is a good addition.

I'm concerned about your statement about not caring about sex. From what you've been saying her, you do care. I'm also afraid he will feel rejected if you say you don't care about sex.

You have said that you are MORE concerned about other potential health issues than you are about the sex. You can work that in.

A: I would like us to go to the doctor's office in the next 2 months. It would make both of us feel better in the long run to know exactly what's going on.

The action you want is for him to set an appointment with the doctor. You mentioned two weeks. I'd suggest one week to make the appointment, and don't even mention how long it will take to get in--Just ask him to make the appointment and then attend it.

R: Once we know what's going on, we know what our options are. We can try some other things, or know what we can and can't do, and go from there. If there is a health issue, we can get it taken care of.

(The R I need to rework. I don't think any of that is going to sway him)

[/quote

You might reinforce that knowing is easier than not knowing.

I can be assertive and maintain my goals. Working the N might be a challenge, but it depends on if I can get DEAR off of the ground

"N" What is your minimum you are willing to negotiate down to?

... .one other question... .you are concerned that this could be a result of some other and more significant health issue he has. How would HE feel about that possibility? Where do you think you should work it in? You had it half-way in the "E".

So for D I should just say "I am concerned about your health"?

E: "I love you, and I want you to be healthy. I care about you and your health more than sex. This is hard for me to talk about because I'm worried about making you feel worse than you already do. I know this is difficult for you, and I am sorry we are going through this."

I see what you guys are saying about the sex bit, and I agree. I do care about sex... .but not enough to where I'd leave my husband over a physical condition... .I just want him to try to do something about it. If it doesn't work... .it doesn't work. But what he hears or thinks is I'm just going to leave because of this >.> makes it really hard to talk about /sigh

@formflier SE SE SET works pretty well for me. Sometimes... .not often, but sometimes if he's in a rage he will notice it and say I'm patronizing him. But overall he responds really well.

Thank you guys for helping me with this. It is really helpful to get input on what I'm trying to say to him, so I can better communicate what I want him to understand. If I had went in there with my original thoughts... .I'm sure it would not get anywhere.

[Grey Kitty]

I think your new ":)" is much better.

Can you add some more detail about WHAT concerns you have for his health, i.e. ED can be a symptom of other health problems that would need to be addressed.

As for the "E"

You can speak your truth. I'm going to be BLUNT and a touch CRUDE in the words I'm suggesting for you. (I've been listening to Dan Savage too much lately!   )

"I love you and I choose to stay with you. I'm not here just for your d*ck. I won't leave you because it isn't performing."

I really think this is how you feel about it. It may not be using the language that feels genuine or natural for you; pick your own words and make sure that they do represent your true feelings.



Wanting sex with him where his plumbing works is still your truth. Bringing it up isn't helpful for this issue, though. Good choice there.

[Crumbling]

I don't ever pressure him or ask him to try. Ever. I already know he puts a lot of pressure on himself, and that's a lot of it. When the dialogue is opened is when I speak about my side of it. I tell him I didn't marry his penis. I love him, and I'm not leaving/cheating because of physical issue he cannot control.

What depresses me is he won't go to the doctor. I'm afraid of prostate cancer, or something like that. If he would go to the doctor, and it's nothing like that, the pills would make him "feel like a man" again. 

I'd really stress your fear of underlying disease as the reason for getting him to the doc.  There are a multitude of them.  You need a healthy husband way more than you need an erect penis.  If getting healthy includes taking the pills, then that is a path you are willing to support him in, if HE chooses.  s

His new found fear that the pills wont work is just his way of degrading himself... .'I'm too messed up to help' thinking, IMO.  There's lots of options out there now, more than one type of pill to choose from.  If one doesn't work, you try another.  I'm pretty sure the doc would tell him this if he would go. 

And one last point, it may be easier for him to actually talk to the doc alone.  It would be impossible for my h to talk to someone else about this with me in the room.  I'm not sure why, but that's what he says.  Perhaps even asking his honest thoughts about you going along with him and how he would feel about talking to a stranger about this with/without you could be a place to open up the entire dialogue.

  I'm sending you good thoughts,

c.

[ColdEthyl]

I don't ever pressure him or ask him to try. Ever. I already know he puts a lot of pressure on himself, and that's a lot of it. When the dialogue is opened is when I speak about my side of it. I tell him I didn't marry his penis. I love him, and I'm not leaving/cheating because of physical issue he cannot control.

What depresses me is he won't go to the doctor. I'm afraid of prostate cancer, or something like that. If he would go to the doctor, and it's nothing like that, the pills would make him "feel like a man" again. 

I'd really stress your fear of underlying disease as the reason for getting him to the doc.  There are a multitude of them.  You need a healthy husband way more than you need an erect penis.  If getting healthy includes taking the pills, then that is a path you are willing to support him in, if HE chooses.  s

His new found fear that the pills wont work is just his way of degrading himself... .'I'm too messed up to help' thinking, IMO.  There's lots of options out there now, more than one type of pill to choose from.  If one doesn't work, you try another.  I'm pretty sure the doc would tell him this if he would go. 

And one last point, it may be easier for him to actually talk to the doc alone.  It would be impossible for my h to talk to someone else about this with me in the room.  I'm not sure why, but that's what he says.  Perhaps even asking his honest thoughts about you going along with him and how he would feel about talking to a stranger about this with/without you could be a place to open up the entire dialogue.

 I'm sending you good thoughts,

c.

When I have offered to go, my H has said he's rather go alone. But... .he won't ever go if I don't make him. Perhaps I'd go but stay in the waiting room. So, I'm there for support but he doesn't have to be embarrassed.

@greykitty Oh, I do say that. And it is exactly how I feel about it

I don't ever pressure him or ask him to try. Ever. I already know he puts a lot of pressure on himself, and that's a lot of it. When the dialogue is opened is when I speak about my side of it. I tell him I didn't marry his penis. I love him, and I'm not leaving/cheating because of physical issue he cannot control.

What depresses me is he won't go to the doctor. I'm afraid of prostate cancer, or something like that. If he would go to the doctor, and it's nothing like that, the pills would make him "feel like a man" again. 

This situation is difficult for most men who have this issue... .it's twice fold with pwBPD >.< I've had this conversation over and over... .only to have him keep 'looping' his arguments back around and repeating himself. It scares him. The possibility of a serious health risk is real. His default way of handling things is to hide. I'm hoping applying the DEAR MAN might break that, but I;m not sure.

Sometimes I feel like I have beat a dead horse to a bloody pulp, and now I'm trying to beat the ground it lied on.

[Crumbling]

I hear ya, sister, loud and clear!  It's crazy hard, I know.  I'm lucky that he had the pills when I met him.  He had this his whole life, so he went 25years, without having any pills or aides. I'm not sure how long within that time frame that the pills were actually available, but it was certainly many years.

And I know how frustrating it is to wait for them to act, but mine seems to get there faster if I apply this.  I simply give up persuading him to go, or talking to him about going and just focus on smoothering him with validations.  You could try something like, What you love about him, what specifically you like about your relationship, blah blah, always ending with 'I really hope you are healthy' or something like that.

[ColdEthyl]

I hear ya, sister, loud and clear!  It's crazy hard, I know.  I'm lucky that he had the pills when I met him.  He had this his whole life, so he went 25years, without having any pills or aides. I'm not sure how long within that time frame that the pills were actually available, but it was certainly many years.

And I know how frustrating it is to wait for them to act, but mine seems to get there faster if I apply this.  I simply give up persuading him to go, or talking to him about going and just focus on smoothering him with validations.  You could try something like, What you love about him, what specifically you like about your relationship, blah blah, always ending with 'I really hope you are healthy' or something like that.

*Nods* right now I'm focusing on just touching, hugging, telling him he's sexy, kissing his neck... .stuff like that. Not trying to initiate anything, but just so he knows he's desirable and I enjoy him without sex. I'm gonna start working that health angle slowly over time.

[Grey Kitty]

This situation is difficult for most men who have this issue... .it's twice fold with pwBPD >.< I've had this conversation over and over... .only to have him keep 'looping' his arguments back around and repeating himself. It scares him. The possibility of a serious health risk is real. His default way of handling things is to hide. I'm hoping applying the DEAR MAN might break that, but I;m not sure.

Sometimes I feel like I have beat a dead horse to a bloody pulp, and now I'm trying to beat the ground it lied on.

I'm sure he feels the same way about beating the dead horse. [Except that the dead horse is his d*ck!] [Did I really say that? LOL]

Giving it some time, and really letting it rest before you try DEAR sounds like a good idea.  

While you are waiting I wouldn't even say a word about his health unless he brings it up!

[formflier]

 

That made me laugh outloud... .

GK has a way of "clarifying" things... .  Nice work!

[Crumbling]

  HA!  I too burst out laughing when I read GK's comment!  Too funny! 

CE- here's one thing I've learned over the years, words hit deep with pwBPD.  Use that to your advantage and TELL him all the good things about him.  Kissing, cuddling, patting his arm are all advances one generally uses to move into sex, the foreplay.  Which may trigger him to shut down out of fear, and not get the love you are trying to give, but, words are just confirmation that you love him.  Nothing is expected back from him.  He doesn't have to do anything about it, just hear what you say, which may not trigger him to shut down like the physical stuff.  Not just I love you, but specifics right from the moment so he knows they are true.  "The light in here right now is making your eyes just sparkle right now, man, you are sexy." - stuff like that.

It's about avoiding what triggers him to shut down, so that something can sink in.

And just for the sake of hope - when it is good, me and hubby, have better sex than I've ever had with anyone else.  It is possible even with ED.  It's few and far between, but most of the time, it is worth the wait and struggles to get there.

We just need to figure out how to resurrect your 'dead horse'!   

 , I'm in your corner, CE, with lots of good intentions comin your way.

c.

 

[ColdEthyl]

  HA!  I too burst out laughing when I read GK's comment!  Too funny! 

CE- here's one thing I've learned over the years, words hit deep with pwBPD.  Use that to your advantage and TELL him all the good things about him.  Kissing, cuddling, patting his arm are all advances one generally uses to move into sex, the foreplay.  Which may trigger him to shut down out of fear, and not get the love you are trying to give, but, words are just confirmation that you love him.  Nothing is expected back from him.  He doesn't have to do anything about it, just hear what you say, which may not trigger him to shut down like the physical stuff.  Not just I love you, but specifics right from the moment so he knows they are true.  "The light in here right now is making your eyes just sparkle right now, man, you are sexy." - stuff like that.

It's about avoiding what triggers him to shut down, so that something can sink in.

And just for the sake of hope - when it is good, me and hubby, have better sex than I've ever had with anyone else.  It is possible even with ED.  It's few and far between, but most of the time, it is worth the wait and struggles to get there.

We just need to figure out how to resurrect your 'dead horse'!   

, I'm in your corner, CE, with lots of good intentions comin your way.

c.

 

OH man GK... .I needed that laugh rofl

Crumbling... .ahhh yes. *bonks self in head* Of course! Look at you with that line! " Not just I love you, but specifics right from the moment so he knows they are true.  "The light in here right now is making your eyes just sparkle right now, man, you are sexy." - stuff like that."

This is... .not my strong suit. I am like... .the most unsexy person ever. I am blunt and ungraceful by nature, and flowery words escape me. We have actually talked about this before... .when he would ask me to do 'dirty talk'. To me that's the most awkward thing ever.

My attempts sound like something you would see in a Will Ferrel film. It's not pretty. We usually end up laughing because of what I said. Or, he's trying to be serious and sexy and he says something, and I knee-jerk a joke from it and we laugh.

I'm not complaining it's pretty great that we laugh and enjoy ourselves, but it does kill the mood. I've asked him to give me examples of what he thinks good dirty talk is, but he says that's not something someone can explain. I even tried to google dirty talk. It's like trying to understand a foreign language to me I just don't get it.

I'm stealing that one, Crumbling rofl

[Grey Kitty]

OH man GK... .I needed that laugh rofl

You are so welcome. I'm still chuckling myself    But seriously... .I'm sure he does feel that bad about it.

Crumbling... .ahhh yes. *bonks self in head* Of course! Look at you with that line! " Not just I love you, but specifics right from the moment so he knows they are true.  "The light in here right now is making your eyes just sparkle right now, man, you are sexy." - stuff like that."

This is... .not my strong suit. I am like... .the most unsexy person ever. I am blunt and ungraceful by nature, and flowery words escape me. We have actually talked about this before... .when he would ask me to do 'dirty talk'. To me that's the most awkward thing ever.

My attempts sound like something you would see in a Will Ferrel film. It's not pretty. We usually end up laughing because of what I said. Or, he's trying to be serious and sexy and he says something, and I knee-jerk a joke from it and we laugh.

CE, you are on the right track here. And I feel for you--I'm not all that good at romance and flirting myself, and it sometimes is a sore spot. And of course, when I'm expected to do it, and I know it, I get anxious that I'll do it 'wrong' or it won't be taken well... .and it is soo much harder to be romantic or flirtatious when you are already nervous! (If not impossible--confidence is one of the most romantic and sexy things you can portray!)

This *is* a skill. You can learn to do it better. It will take effort on your part. Research. Practice.

Googling dirty talk is a good start. You might also try googling how to flirt. (I remember reading something online about how to use text messages to really turn a woman throughout the day, for example)

I'd also suggest that it will feel uncomfortable and unnatural to you at first. And you just have to go through that to get far enough up the learning curve to have it feel any different.

[ColdEthyl]

OH man GK... .I needed that laugh rofl

You are so welcome. I'm still chuckling myself    But seriously... .I'm sure he does feel that bad about it.

Crumbling... .ahhh yes. *bonks self in head* Of course! Look at you with that line! " Not just I love you, but specifics right from the moment so he knows they are true.  "The light in here right now is making your eyes just sparkle right now, man, you are sexy." - stuff like that."

This is... .not my strong suit. I am like... .the most unsexy person ever. I am blunt and ungraceful by nature, and flowery words escape me. We have actually talked about this before... .when he would ask me to do 'dirty talk'. To me that's the most awkward thing ever.

My attempts sound like something you would see in a Will Ferrel film. It's not pretty. We usually end up laughing because of what I said. Or, he's trying to be serious and sexy and he says something, and I knee-jerk a joke from it and we laugh.

CE, you are on the right track here. And I feel for you--I'm not all that good at romance and flirting myself, and it sometimes is a sore spot. And of course, when I'm expected to do it, and I know it, I get anxious that I'll do it 'wrong' or it won't be taken well... .and it is soo much harder to be romantic or flirtatious when you are already nervous! (If not impossible--confidence is one of the most romantic and sexy things you can portray!)

This *is* a skill. You can learn to do it better. It will take effort on your part. Research. Practice.

Googling dirty talk is a good start. You might also try googling how to flirt. (I remember reading something online about how to use text messages to really turn a woman throughout the day, for example)

I'd also suggest that it will feel uncomfortable and unnatural to you at first. And you just have to go through that to get far enough up the learning curve to have it feel any different.

That's what I was afraid of >.< I'll have to give it a go, no matter how weird I feel Tyvm, Grey Kitty. You have been most helpful!

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting topic, since we are dealing with this, yet H refuses to talk about it. It's a very confusing issue for me, since I mentioned that for many years he had painted me black, yet expected sex without any affection for me. I was depressed and just gave in for years to keep the peace. We had small children at home and I didn't have much will to do more than take care of him. He was also rarely home during those times, would come home late at night, and just expect it.

Then, he had a change of heart and tried to bring the passion back into our marriage. It was great at first but the one time I said no, he went into a rage and it just freaked me out. I didn't make any connection to BPD at the time. He pretty much blamed me for this or that. Cold Ethyl mentioned the BJ word. I literally had him on a schedule, as one of his main complaints was that I "never" did that, so I would actually mark it on a calendar to prove that yes, I did do that. If I look back, none of his accusations were based on reality- they were all made in dysregulated rages. It was like he had no memory, and that everything was "never" no matter how often.

Then, after being the one who demanded it, things stopped working. I was blamed for that too. ( If you can guess that I had no sense of feeling attractive anymore at this point, you are right, however, I do stay in shape and have not changed drastically since he was attracted to me) . He would refuse to discuss it, give me the ST. I also heard the "women are always ready and men are not" speech. He did bring up the pills, which terrified me since I thought he'd go back to being demanding like before. I was not happy at the idea.

Which he brought up again to blame me- you didn't want me to get the pills. Then, one day, he found out how to get them on the internet with some kind of prescription, and did not tell me. I realized something was up when suddenly something was up () and asked him about it later. That didn't go well.

Now, he takes them and I know about it, but I wish I understood what was going on with him better. I realize this is a tough issue. It's a tough issue for the partner too. Mix it with other relationship issues, and it is very difficult.

[formflier]

  I realized something was up when suddenly something was up () and asked him about it later. 

Now that... .is a funny way to put it... .!   

Nice work... .I'm going to be smiling about that... .all day

[Notwendy]

Sometimes humor is good medicine.

I so wish I knew then what I know now, so this didn't get to me personally. I'm able to revisit a lot of things like this and reframe them, knowing it really wasn't all my fault even though I was being blamed for it.

This is stuff I've just wondered about for years, with no answer. Of course it is normal for this to be embarrassing for any man, and I am understanding. It helps to know why all those bad feelings were projected on to me. It also helps to know that I am not alone- the only one- who has dealt with this.

[ColdEthyl]

This is an interesting topic, since we are dealing with this, yet H refuses to talk about it. It's a very confusing issue for me, since I mentioned that for many years he had painted me black, yet expected sex without any affection for me. I was depressed and just gave in for years to keep the peace. We had small children at home and I didn't have much will to do more than take care of him. He was also rarely home during those times, would come home late at night, and just expect it.

Then, he had a change of heart and tried to bring the passion back into our marriage. It was great at first but the one time I said no, he went into a rage and it just freaked me out. I didn't make any connection to BPD at the time. He pretty much blamed me for this or that. Cold Ethyl mentioned the BJ word. I literally had him on a schedule, as one of his main complaints was that I "never" did that, so I would actually mark it on a calendar to prove that yes, I did do that. If I look back, none of his accusations were based on reality- they were all made in dysregulated rages. It was like he had no memory, and that everything was "never" no matter how often.

Then, after being the one who demanded it, things stopped working. I was blamed for that too. ( If you can guess that I had no sense of feeling attractive anymore at this point, you are right, however, I do stay in shape and have not changed drastically since he was attracted to me) . He would refuse to discuss it, give me the ST. I also heard the "women are always ready and men are not" speech. He did bring up the pills, which terrified me since I thought he'd go back to being demanding like before. I was not happy at the idea.

Which he brought up again to blame me- you didn't want me to get the pills. Then, one day, he found out how to get them on the internet with some kind of prescription, and did not tell me. I realized something was up when suddenly something was up () and asked him about it later. That didn't go well.

Now, he takes them and I know about it, but I wish I understood what was going on with him better. I realize this is a tough issue. It's a tough issue for the partner too. Mix it with other relationship issues, and it is very difficult.

Psst... .tell me about that website he went to  rofl

I understand your frustrations. Some BPDers seem to just let their BPD inject itself even in the bedroom, so I guess this is another place we have to learn how to communicate with them in a way that sets them at ease. I wonder if the first few years the sex was good for us because it was 'new' and the 'new' feelings overrode all the BPD stuff.

I suppose I'm a bit different than most of the females here. My husband makes me feel intimacy and love daily when we talk, laugh, share things. He holds my hand, rubs my back and we cuddle every night... .do you guys get that kind of stuff?

Since I get that stuff... .I wouldn't mind feeling used every once in a while >

[Notwendy]

I have no idea where he got the stuff, he was vague about that too.

My H is more affectionate now that he came to some awareness that his behavior led to me becoming depressed.

It was the opposite for me. His equipment worked at the time, but he would have nothing else to do with me. He even refused to kiss me. He showed no affection for me, yet he still expected me to be there if he wanted to do it- with no kissing, hugging, anything. I hated it.

Now, he tells me I am unaffectionate, and to some extent, I am. It's getting better for me, but it is tough to get over that. I am aware that I contribute to the current problems now with my own reluctance, but having gone through that has given me a lot to get over, if I can.

Now that he is more emotionally present, the ED is an issue. I know we are older now, and that may be a contributor. Sometimes I wonder if this is connected? If he is too emotionally close, if I am actually in the experience with him,  there is ED, if he keeps me at a non threatening ( not emotional, not asking anything,) distance, then no ED? Kinda the push pull thing in the bedroom ( no pun intended  )

[Grey Kitty]

Psst... .tell me about that website he went to  rofl

Don't you read your spam emails? If you don't get enough of those, I'll forward a dozen to you! 

[ColdEthyl]

Psst... .tell me about that website he went to  rofl

Don't you read your spam emails? If you don't get enough of those, I'll forward a dozen to you! 

... .you know you would think I would know that... .but Gmail is really good at keeping spam out of my inbox. Now... .only if I could get some of my husband's spam in my inbox... .