No Brainwashing Allowed.

[Crumbling]

Some adults who enter into relationships with borderlines feel brainwashed by the BP's accusations and criticisms. The techniques of brainwashing are simple: isolate the victim, expose them to inconsistent messages, mix with sleep deprivation, add some form of abuse, get the person to doubt what they know and feel, keep them on their toes, wear them down, and stir well. ~ Elyce M. Benham, M.S.


I got this quote off of the BPD Behaviours: Projections page.  How many off that list is happening in your home?  I've got four out of seven, and it does fluctuate over time, but my BPDh can also stir things up pretty good too.

When I read this today, it confirmed for me that I really am not as crazy as he would like me to believe.  I felt validated, and I'm going to actively defend myself from these techniques, and maybe see some of his comments/actions as what they are, a BPD trait, when they are happening and not after things blow way out of hand.

Thought I'd share in hopes it will help others too. 

United we stand, in BPD-Land! 

(I got that term from someone else, and it is so fitting, I had to pass it on!)   

blessings,

c.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Hmcbart]

I would hit 7 out of 7 but I'm an insomniac so the sleep deprivation is all on me.

[Crumbling]

   Hmcbart!  Maybe it's time for some boundary setting, for you.   

[formflier]

 

Once you know the recipe... .it is much easier to combat... .or  to not get into the pot!

[Hmcbart]

 Hmcbart!  Maybe it's time for some boundary setting, for you.   

I agree 100%. It's been 19 years and I'm just now learning about BPD. I had always noticed that it's perticularly bad 4-5 days before her time of month. I had always chalked it up to exactly that (no offense to the ladies here).

I've been formulating plans to set boundaries but with her it's not as simple as "dear we need to talk". Its more like a well thought out game of chess, move and counter move. I know how she will react to my taking away some of her control. I've already seen it when I take over diciplin of the kids. That's a major control area of hers and last week she slammed the door and left when I took over.

So yes there will be boundaries set, but not until I can be fully committed to upholding them myself.

[Crumbling]

  Hmcbart!  Maybe it's time for some boundary setting, for you.   

I agree 100%. It's been 19 years and I'm just now learning about BPD. I had always noticed that it's perticularly bad 4-5 days before her time of month. I had always chalked it up to exactly that (no offense to the ladies here).

I've been formulating plans to set boundaries but with her it's not as simple as "dear we need to talk". Its more like a well thought out game of chess, move and counter move. I know how she will react to my taking away some of her control. I've already seen it when I take over diciplin of the kids. That's a major control area of hers and last week she slammed the door and left when I took over.

So yes there will be boundaries set, but not until I can be fully committed to upholding them myself.

It's a great idea to have a clear plan in your mind before having any discussions.  And boundaries are for you, things she cannot control.  There are also lots of parents here who struggle with the same issues.  Most important is to find a safe place for you, emotionally, away from the drama so you can self sooth.  It's what helps most of us get thru   

Sometimes, it's important to stop making things worse before you can make anything better.  Have you read through the article with that title on the right of this page, Hm? 

thanks for the reply.

[flowerpath]

I’d say six of them.   

I felt validated, and I'm going to actively defend myself from these techniques, and maybe see some of his comments/actions as what they are, a BPD trait, when they are happening and not after things blow way out of hand.

Yep, Crumbling.  No brainwashing allowed, indeed!  Paying better attention to what is going on... .categorizing the different behaviors under a BPD trait so I can understand what he is doing... .improving the ways I respond.  I don’t like being on the alert to measure his mood or his words or his actions every time he walks into the room or every time he calls, but that’s a small price for having a more peaceful life. 

Once you know the recipe... .it is much easier to combat... .or  to not get into the pot!

Formflier, a long time ago you asked me something like “What will your actions look like if he….?”  “What will you say if he……?”  Your questions helped me to decide what I am going to do when things get wacky and actually do it.   When he starts barking and throwing his weight around, now I can quietly walk out of the room and keep walking even if he chides me.   When he is twisting words and situations into something that makes no sense, now I can recognize what he is doing and speak the simple truth without JADEing.   And I can ignore the things that just don’t matter and chalk it up to BPD…unless I just want to stir the pot…a little…    There's still a long way to go, but I don’t feel as if I am at the mercy of BPD anymore. 

It's been 19 years and I'm just now learning about BPD.

Hang in there, Hmcbart.   It was 30 years for me!  Duh!  I haven’t said a word to my H about my boundaries or any of this because I know that if he knows a weakness that I have, he will zero in on it.  If I fail at a boundary, he will ridicule me.  Maybe even sarcastically tell me how I should enforce that boundary!  Imagine that!  So since most of this is about changing my own behavior, it's not something I want to discuss with him.  It may not be the thing that works for everybody, but so far, letting my actions do the talking and being very careful about how I respond verbally in order to not make things worse works for me.   

[Hmcbart]

I read the article a few days ago Crumbling. I'm still searching for that safe place.

I did however, totally kick some verbal butt with the SET tonight. I am pretty sure I butchered it and it was probably more of a EESEETES... .But it definitely helped out. I wouldn't have worked as well had she not been locked in the bathroom. She can always read my face and emotions. Granted it wasn't a really big one, which is probably for the better.

I didn't try your version though ff. Maybe next time 

[formflier]

 

tell me more about being locked in bathroom... .

There are two schools of thought on tantrums and being locked up in a room.

One is what you seem to have done... .validate and talk them out... .but that gets them attention by acting out.

Others school of thought is that their actions speak louder than words... .they lock themselves up... so they obviously want to be left alone... .so leave them alone... .go about living your life.

What you don't want to do is keep switching back and forth... .

[Hmcbart]

tell me more about being locked in bathroom

That's where she goes when she knows she is frustrated and will blow up. She is aware that she has some problems but thats about it.

She was doing homework with the 12y/o and was getting very frustrated. They have had issues in the past. I read your post about the belt incident. It was not as bad, no belt or hitting but the verbal was way out of control. She used way too many adjectives to describe how she thought of him (your so effing stupid, multiple times and some other words). This was two years ago. I was out of town and that was all on the voice mail I got.

She did see a T but ultimately this just helped her "realize" that she was taking out her anger at me on him. Even comments last night where all black, no white. But she made sure to say that she knows she was taking out her anger and frustrations with me on him. Says it's because we are too much alike the way we do things. I guess we are, we both are on the defense anytime she is around and not happy.

So I just tried to speak with her while she was in her safe zone. I wasn't trying to talk her out, just pointing out that he is not a bad kid and is actually very intelligent. She would hear any of but I wanted to get my point across that it's ok to get frustrated just make sure she doesn't take it out on him. I'm already seeing signs that her words and criticisms are effecting him.

My priority now is to deflect her anger and frustration away from him. Then to begin the de-programming of negative thoughts he now has about himself. This thread is about brainwashing and that's what she has done to me and now it's effecting him as well. Youngest is not affected yet. He's more resilient in a lot of ways, plus he gets to learn from mine and his older brother mistakes.

[formflier]

not a bad kid and is actually very intelligent

Probably "adjective" invalidated the "adjective" out of her by doing this... .

Think about this... .even read about validation and invalidation if you need to ... .

Then... .try to answer how you "may have" invalidated her.

Also... general statement here... .if they go hide... .and they tell you they are doing it because they are trying to protect you guys... .or something to that effect... .

Let them go hide... .don't think another thing about it

When they come out... .hand them a glass of cool ice water... .make small talk... .this is you putting your toes in the water... .to see if you can have a real conversation or not...

[Crumbling]

Hm,

  for putting your son up there as a priority.  As difficult and confusing a relationship with a pwBPD is, it must be so much more for a child.

There is this thing we do sometimes, as nons, that may add fuel to the fire for someone with BPD, without realizing it.  We JADE.   JADE stands for justifying, arguing, defending and engaging.  If your conversations revolve around doing these things, then it most likely will not be a constructive one.  Sometimes, just having your own boundary to say, I'm not going to participate in these types of conversations can help.

Your comment about the two of you being alike made me realize that perhaps you may be  mirroring each other.  I know a lot of times I don't really realize that my BPDh's behaviour has gotten the best of me, until I catch myself behaving just like him.  Then I know it's time for me to take a step back and focus on myself for a while.  So, I think this is a relatively normal thing to happen.  You've got good insight as a couple for recognizing it.

  Now that you've found this site, you have a whole mountain of mistakes to learn from.

Flowerpath,

It is tough to have to be the 'emotionally healthy' one all the time, really tough.  No wonder we get so worn down and why self soothing/care is so important. 

Formflier,

Does your wife attempt these things with you?  Are you well armed for shielding yourself from these techniques?

[formflier]

Formflier,

Does your wife attempt these things with you?  Are you well armed for shielding yourself from these techniques?

Which things... .?  Let me know... then I can go into history of that.

Allen

[kc sunshine]

The sleep deprivation was one of the toughest things for me.

She warned me about it... .said that her past partners had suffered a lot because she wouldn't let them sleep if she was upset. She laughingly said that she said that she should take a sleeping pill before bed and that would help things. Did/does anyone partner's do this? It seemed like kind of a good idea though the side effects (being tired in the day, getting addicted to them) seem bad.

Sometimes we could laugh about it and that would help. E.g. saying "how can you even be talking? aren't you so tired?" said lovingly and laughingly once broke the ice and changed the mood... .but when she was really upset nothing would seem to help (though perhaps SET would have)

[Hmcbart]

Crumbling-

  If you mean my son and I mirroring each other these yes. I've seen it first hand.

If you mean my wife and I mirroring each other, I'm pretty sure that happens also. Most days I still believe I'm the cause of all the problems in the marriage. That's where the brain washing comes in. Some days I'm believe that my words or intentions were designed to hurt or upset her. I would also agree that sometimes they have been, especially after enduring a long spell of ST followed by relentless criticism of everything I do and say.

Some days I expect to see a comet with a UFO in it or find a nice glass of Kool-aid waiting for me. Those or the most confusing days. When you believe everything you have been told for so many years.

Formflier-

I know I have invalidated her on many occasions. I have finally start to stand up for myself and my son. Any attempt to take away the control she has, over me or the kids, is invalidating to her. Triggers a big explosion when I have done it lately. I'm not planning on stopping though. For my own self esteem and to show my kids that tgey need to stand up to some who is bullying you, even if it's a family member.

The difficult part is teaching the kids the difference between her being a bully and her being a parent.

[formflier]

  Any attempt to take away the control she has, over me or the kids, is invalidating to her. 

Not necessarily... .if you acknowledge the feeling... .but act differently... .it may go better.

If she claims that you doing x... means you think y... .and it has z impact on her... .

She invalidated herself... .oh well.

Invalidation is usually about words... .not actions. 

Does this change your analysis of your dynamic?

[Hmcbart]

I don't really know what would change the dynamic some days.

On a different note, my son called me tonight to tell me he got a 100 on his science test today. I was extremely proud of him. Is it wrong of me to want to give her a big "next time shut the hell up about how you think he isn't smart". (I was the one who helped him study)... .I didn't call and tell her the last part but I really did want to gloat a little. Guess that makes me a poor winner.

I am wrestling with a time to come up with some boundaries. I was trying to find the lessons here on setting and keep them, but I couldn't find them. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[waverider]

3 steps to tackle this:

~Know you are an individual with rights and choices>apply boundaries

~Not being reactive to what they say or do> stops them steering the agenda

~make space for yourself> This brings space to think more objectively leading to better decisions and reduction in tension/resentment. The reality of where you are at becomes clearer.

While it is pressurizing you like a slow moving glacier you are unaware of it shifting were you stand, until you step aside. It can take years of slow sliding before you even realize you have moved. it is then a very slippery slope to get back.

Isolation is the key one, it separates you from any benchmarks from which you might use to judge what is 'normal" and what is not.

A lot of this is not as deliberate as it may sound it is the natural consequence of neediness and lack concern for anyone's needs but their own.

[123Phoebe]

I am wrestling with a time to come up with some boundaries. I was trying to find the lessons here on setting and keep them, but I couldn't find them. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Here's a link, Hmcbart https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

Read everything in the Lessons, they really help.

[Hmcbart]

Thank Pheobe,

One if the objectives was how to restore a boundary after you have given it up, but I didn't see where that section was.

Waverider- the Iceberg analogy is perfect. I didn't even know when I gave up any boundaries and control of self and by the time I did it was years later. That slippery slope is what I'm now having to climb back up.

[formflier]

 

Quick note on boundaries... .don't be in a rush. 

The worst thing you can do is set a boundary... and then start moving it around... .whatever you set... .you need to hold.

THEY WILL TEST THEM... .

It might even appear worse for a bit (this is normal)

If you stick with it... .they will tire of testing it... .and most likely act like it was never an issue.

If you give in... .they will perceive they are still in charge... .and keep trying.

[formflier]

 

Why don't you propose a couple boundaries to us... we'll help

[Hmcbart]

Why don't you propose a couple boundaries to us... we'll help

May be a mute point now. I mistakenly thought I was allowed to tell her about how I was feeling and what I wanted from our marriage. Guess I was wrong. May be moving over to the Divorce board after tonight.

Sadly I think I'm to the point where I don't care anymore. I will see how I feel in the morning. I'm too tired to deal with it anymore today.

[waverider]

Sadly I think I'm to the point where I don't care anymore.

This is the best time to set boundaries as you are less likely to back down. Boundaries are about you not them. Setting them is good for your future whatever happens, as they apply to everyone and everything you do in future. eg if it is no abuse, this means anyone... It is a good life skill.

Sometimes it takes the acceptance of being willing to let it all go to rebuild that objectivity, as your right to a healthier future come first. That is, your bluff can't be called.

[formflier]

May be a mute point now. I mistakenly thought I was allowed to tell her about how I was feeling and what I wanted from our marriage. Guess I was wrong. May be moving over to the Divorce board after tonight.

With pwBPD traits... you have to be a bit smarter about the way that you do this. 

If you want to tell her your feelings... when she is on edge of dysreg... .or if your feelings directly contradict yours... .that is danger zone.  Use tools and proceed carefully.

Note:  Sometimes I toss all of this out the window and "just say it"... .usually it produces a bad reaction... .but it does feel freeing.