I seriously think I'm done

[workinprogress]

I just have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I just don't think that I can continue in this 24 year marriage.  There is no affection or communication.  Year after year rolls by and I keep hoping that things will improve.

She will begin being nice to me, then, suddenly it stops.

I know with divorce laws being what they are, I will probably pay big time.  I don't want to leave my kids.  I just don't know what else to do.

I feel like a walking ATM.  Other than that I am nothing to her.

I think I will tell her that I am done over the weekend.

BTW, we haven't had sex in years, and what is she doing tonight?  Going to watch Shades of Grey with her friends.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry that you're in this situation.    How old are your kids?

PwBPD can certainly make ironic choices--I guess she still has some glimmer of interest in sex.

Good luck to you.

[sweetheart]

Hello workinprogress,

I have read your intro posts and how difficult things have been in your marriage.

This of course is the Staying board and I came here as you probably did to see if education and use of the tools here would improve my marriage, they did. I did however start this process on Undecided.What really helped me there when I felt like I had had enough was to put in place a plan to leave. To set it out and see what it might look like. I have a young son so just leaving wasn't really an option, then there was property and finances to sort through. I spent time planning to leave. I read the legal boards and the co-parenting boards so that I began to understand what leaving a pwBPD might be like. My dBPDh was high conflict and someone who blames everyone else for everything that goes wrong in his life. So I knew leaving would probably be difficult.

Ironically planning to leave freed me from my fear and I felt able to choose to stay knowing I could leave and I would be ok.

It sounds from your post that things have either not improved or not improved enough for you to continue. You sound really deflated, feeling like a walking ATM must be very dehumanising. I can relate to not knowing what else to do and feeling hopeless.

Who do you have for support, do you have a T ? Did anything happen today or recently that has caused you to feel like this ?

[workinprogress]

Cat, the weird thing is that she and I have had very little sex in the last 16 years, but hearing her talk to her friends you would think that she loves it.  Except when it comes to me.

My youngest kid is 15.  The bottom line is, I have stayed for the kids. 

Sweetheart, I really don't have much outside support.  I have somehow allowed my friends to become whittled down over the years.  I can see how it happened.  Shortly after we married some friends of mine invited my wife and I to see a concert in a nearby state.  My wife suddenly was totally against.  She told me that my friends were losers (which she later denied saying) and totally refused to go.  After that, my friendships started to decline.  Plus, I was working my butt off to try and keep her happy.  Which never happened.

I don't know if anything different has happened, it's just I am getting a good view of the future, and it looks a lot like the present.

Interestingly enough, I was determined to talk to her this weekend, and she came home from the movie with her friends and had some type of family drama going on with her parents that had her "stressed out."  So, I decided against it.

[Cat Familiar]

Cat, the weird thing is that she and I have had very little sex in the last 16 years, but hearing her talk to her friends you would think that she loves it.  Except when it comes to me.

It seems like she likes the image of being a sexual woman, but is not into the followthrough. I'm glad that your children are older. If you do separate, it won't be so difficult for them.

And yes, our BPD spouses are certainly good at killing outside friendships. My husband will paint black my friends if they're not "friendly enough" to him. I now know to ignore his complaints.

Are you still determined to talk with her, or are you just waiting for a better time?

[workinprogress]

Cat, the weird thing is that she and I have had very little sex in the last 16 years, but hearing her talk to her friends you would think that she loves it.  Except when it comes to me.

It seems like she likes the image of being a sexual woman, but is not into the followthrough. I'm glad that your children are older. If you do separate, it won't be so difficult for them.

And yes, our BPD spouses are certainly good at killing outside friendships. My husband will paint black my friends if they're not "friendly enough" to him. I now know to ignore his complaints.

Are you still determined to talk with her, or are you just waiting for a better time?

I tried to talk a bit with her last night just testing the waters.  She usually gets angry when I bring up our marriage.  Last night she got a little defensive and she said that she thought things were getting better, but she said that she didn't know what she wanted.

[sweetheart]

What do you want, what do you want staying for you to look like ?

[Cat Familiar]

So Workinprogress, what do you want? You sound like you've given up hope that anything in your marriage will improve? I know you don't want to leave your kids, but is there a way to mitigate this issue--joint custody? Have you come up with a plan yet or are you still in the considering stages? And if you don't do this now, can you imagine staying a few years until your youngest graduates? If so, what might change when you and your wife become empty nesters? Do you think things would change for the better, or worse?

[workinprogress]

I want the woman I married back.  Part of me can't accept that it was an illusion.

I want to have a loving marriage.  I want someone that I can spend time with and enjoy the time that I spend with her.

I don't know if things will get better or not.  I've been working on things for so long... .

[vortex of confusion]

I tried to talk a bit with her last night just testing the waters.  She usually gets angry when I bring up our marriage.  Last night she got a little defensive and she said that she thought things were getting better, but she said that she didn't know what she wanted.

Hugs!   

I know how frustrating it is to try to use the tools and get to a place where things are more peaceful only to feel like no progress is being made. I talk to my husband and he says that things are so much better between us. I don't see it or feel it. Yes, he is trying hard and is making some effort. The problem is that I still don't feel safe trying to talk to him. I still don't feel like I have a space where I can relax and just be without him getting upset. He isn't fully dysregulating as much or as often so that is progress. Even with the progress, it still feels really, really lonely and I sometimes feel like there is no hope of us ever having a relationship where I feel comfortable being me.

I don't have any answers or suggestions for you. All I can do is say "me too". I know what I want. What I is conflicting. I want to keep things together and keep things peaceful for the kids. I also want a spouse that is a partner and a friend. Still trying to figure out how to reconcile all of the conflicting feelings.

[Cat Familiar]

I want the woman I married back.  Part of me can't accept that it was an illusion.

I want to have a loving marriage.  I want someone that I can spend time with and enjoy the time that I spend with her.

I don't know if things will get better or not.  I've been working on things for so long... .

I know how frustrating it is to try to use the tools and get to a place where things are more peaceful only to feel like no progress is being made. I talk to my husband and he says that things are so much better between us. I don't see it or feel it. Yes, he is trying hard and is making some effort. The problem is that I still don't feel safe trying to talk to him. I still don't feel like I have a space where I can relax and just be without him getting upset. He isn't fully dysregulating as much or as often so that is progress. Even with the progress, it still feels really, really lonely and I sometimes feel like there is no hope of us ever having a relationship where I feel comfortable being me.

I don't have any answers or suggestions for you. All I can do is say "me too". I know what I want. What I is conflicting. I want to keep things together and keep things peaceful for the kids. I also want a spouse that is a partner and a friend. Still trying to figure out how to reconcile all of the conflicting feelings.

I hear you both. There's an old answering machine in my office that's no longer connected to the phone line, but I've kept it plugged in and replaced the batteries over the years. On it, are messages from my husband from when we first got together. I've thought on several occasions that I should donate it, but I just can't seem to let it go. I listened to the messages yesterday and they were so sweet and loving, it really made me sad remembering that time before we had all the baggage.

I think that was when he was painting me white and how I loved that time, how much it nourished me. And it lasted for a number of years before the weird BPD behavior started taking center stage. I ask myself was it all just an illusion? I remember being able to talk with him and bare my soul. I don't dare do that nowadays. It's sad and very disappointing. Will it get better? Will it ever get back to where it was when we first got together? I don't know. I'm not going to hold my breath. Maybe it was just a moment in time, a very beautiful moment and that's all it was and will ever be.

If I look at the bright side, this whole BPD sh!t has caused me to do a lot of growing--my Emotional Intelligence has definitely increased by leaps and bounds and looking back at how oblivious I was just a year ago, I'm rather embarrassed. So that's definitely a positive. Maybe that's a start... .

[workinprogress]

I tried to talk a bit with her last night just testing the waters.  She usually gets angry when I bring up our marriage.  Last night she got a little defensive and she said that she thought things were getting better, but she said that she didn't know what she wanted.

Hugs!   

I know how frustrating it is to try to use the tools and get to a place where things are more peaceful only to feel like no progress is being made. I talk to my husband and he says that things are so much better between us. I don't see it or feel it. Yes, he is trying hard and is making some effort. The problem is that I still don't feel safe trying to talk to him. I still don't feel like I have a space where I can relax and just be without him getting upset. He isn't fully dysregulating as much or as often so that is progress. Even with the progress, it still feels really, really lonely and I sometimes feel like there is no hope of us ever having a relationship where I feel comfortable being me.

I don't have any answers or suggestions for you. All I can do is say "me too". I know what I want. What I is conflicting. I want to keep things together and keep things peaceful for the kids. I also want a spouse that is a partner and a friend. Still trying to figure out how to reconcile all of the conflicting feelings.

Thanks VoC.  A spouse that can be a friend would be amazing. 

I also just feel comfortable enough to just have a conversation with her about much of anything.  She can talk to me non-stop at times about whatever is going on in her life.  Yet, whenever I say anything is just doesn't matter or it causes anger.

Thank you for sharing.

[workinprogress]

I want the woman I married back.  Part of me can't accept that it was an illusion.

I want to have a loving marriage.  I want someone that I can spend time with and enjoy the time that I spend with her.

I don't know if things will get better or not.  I've been working on things for so long... .

I know how frustrating it is to try to use the tools and get to a place where things are more peaceful only to feel like no progress is being made. I talk to my husband and he says that things are so much better between us. I don't see it or feel it. Yes, he is trying hard and is making some effort. The problem is that I still don't feel safe trying to talk to him. I still don't feel like I have a space where I can relax and just be without him getting upset. He isn't fully dysregulating as much or as often so that is progress. Even with the progress, it still feels really, really lonely and I sometimes feel like there is no hope of us ever having a relationship where I feel comfortable being me.

I don't have any answers or suggestions for you. All I can do is say "me too". I know what I want. What I is conflicting. I want to keep things together and keep things peaceful for the kids. I also want a spouse that is a partner and a friend. Still trying to figure out how to reconcile all of the conflicting feelings.

I hear you both. There's an old answering machine in my office that's no longer connected to the phone line, but I've kept it plugged in and replaced the batteries over the years. On it, are messages from my husband from when we first got together. I've thought on several occasions that I should donate it, but I just can't seem to let it go. I listened to the messages yesterday and they were so sweet and loving, it really made me sad remembering that time before we had all the baggage.

I think that was when he was painting me white and how I loved that time, how much it nourished me. And it lasted for a number of years before the weird BPD behavior started taking center stage. I ask myself was it all just an illusion? I remember being able to talk with him and bare my soul. I don't dare do that nowadays. It's sad and very disappointing. Will it get better? Will it ever get back to where it was when we first got together? I don't know. I'm not going to hold my breath. Maybe it was just a moment in time, a very beautiful moment and that's all it was and will ever be.

If I look at the bright side, this whole BPD sh!t has caused me to do a lot of growing--my Emotional Intelligence has definitely increased by leaps and bounds and looking back at how oblivious I was just a year ago, I'm rather embarrassed. So that's definitely a positive. Maybe that's a start... .

I can so relate to everything that you said.  I also find myself being embarrassed by the person I was before.  I have also found that it is harder for me to kind of emotionally let go of things than it used to be.  I guess it's kind of a double edged sword.

That was an amazing statement you made about the answering machine.  I have a picture of my wife and I from when we dated on my desk along with pics of the kids.  In our picture, she is sitting on my lap with her arms around me smiling.  Sometimes I'll look at that picture and wonder what has happened to us.  She is emotionally gone and I can't seem to reach her.

Maybe it was just a beautiful moment in time.  Perhaps I shouldn't grieve over it? 

Maybe I just have to move on... .

[Notwendy]

That's interesting because it is my H who says he wishes he had the "old me" back. Yes, I was co-dependent, but that kind hearted and trusting person who wanted to make him happy couldn't stay that way through the years he painted me black. I was not able to be loving and affectionate in the face of verbal abuse.

Like Cat says, I had to grow, and I did and no longer am I willing to make the extreme efforts I did to make him happy when he painted me black, nor am I willing to tolerate how he treated me.

Thankfully, he has made efforts to be kinder and much of his verbal abuse has stopped. I don't know if it is him or the fact that I have changed that led to us both changing. There are still issues, but it is thankfully not like it was.

I don't want the old him back... .

[workinprogress]

That's interesting because it is my H who says he wishes he had the "old me" back. Yes, I was co-dependent, but that kind hearted and trusting person who wanted to make him happy couldn't stay that way through the years he painted me black. I was not able to be loving and affectionate in the face of verbal abuse.

Like Cat says, I had to grow, and I did and no longer am I willing to make the extreme efforts I did to make him happy when he painted me black, nor am I willing to tolerate how he treated me.

Thankfully, he has made efforts to be kinder and much of his verbal abuse has stopped. I don't know if it is him or the fact that I have changed that led to us both changing. There are still issues, but it is thankfully not like it was.

I don't want the old him back... .

Notwendy, I think her insecurities drove her crazy.  She wanted a house and kids shortly after we married.  She had been so good to me that I wanted to see that she got what she wanted and desired.

I did not have a specialized degree, so I had to work my butt off in hopes of somehow getting ahead.  Which I eventually did.  I recall coming home after long days of work, and she would accuse me of cheating on her.  Or she would accuse me of one thing or another.  She would get angry over little things. 

I overlooked all of this stuff, because I felt that deep down inside, she loved me, and nobody is perfect.

But, she became a nervous wreck.  Then finally, she shut down to me.  I think she couldn't take her own thoughts and fears and she had to not care.  Does that make sense?

[Notwendy]

I agree that the insecurites play a role and also are part of painting us black.

I think, at first, a new relationship is euphoric. Partners are discovering each other and making efforts to be romantic while not making much demands on each other. I think in this phase, we are providing the constant validation and love and attention that they need to not descend into that terrible place inside of them. So they don't do it and we don't see it. We are sort of a drug to them at the time, and they think that they have found the solution to their bad feelings. They are happy too- and it is the idealization stage.

We don't know it, but we inevitably let them down, and since we don't intend it, we have no idea it is happening. We are human and know that our partners are humans, and so we accept that there are times when our partners might not be in a place to attend to our needs all the time. For you, maybe it was working a lot. For me, it was starting a family. There were times that I was tired, focused on the children, not interested in being romantic. I was still loving and I think most husbands would get that a mom was up all night with a child and needed to rest, just like a wife would get that her husband is tired after working long hours.

What I didn't know was that there was no temporary, and feelings are facts. So, if I was available to him most of the time but tired one night and "not interested" as he puts it- that meant to him that I was not attracted to him, not ever going to be interested in him and that we would never have sex again.  I had no idea what he was thinking- and it made no sense to me that he'd fly into a rage over that. For your wife, maybe staying late at work one night meant you were never coming home. My H would think I was going to cheat on him too, as if I would even have considered that. All I wanted was some sleep. But to him, that was unforgivable rejection.

[workinprogress]

I agree that the insecurites play a role and also are part of painting us black.

I think, at first, a new relationship is euphoric. Partners are discovering each other and making efforts to be romantic while not making much demands on each other. I think in this phase, we are providing the constant validation and love and attention that they need to not descend into that terrible place inside of them. So they don't do it and we don't see it. We are sort of a drug to them at the time, and they think that they have found the solution to their bad feelings. They are happy too- and it is the idealization stage.

We don't know it, but we inevitably let them down, and since we don't intend it, we have no idea it is happening. We are human and know that our partners are humans, and so we accept that there are times when our partners might not be in a place to attend to our needs all the time. For you, maybe it was working a lot. For me, it was starting a family. There were times that I was tired, focused on the children, not interested in being romantic. I was still loving and I think most husbands would get that a mom was up all night with a child and needed to rest, just like a wife would get that her husband is tired after working long hours.

What I didn't know was that there was no temporary, and feelings are facts. So, if I was available to him most of the time but tired one night and "not interested" as he puts it- that meant to him that I was not attracted to him, not ever going to be interested in him and that we would never have sex again.  I had no idea what he was thinking- and it made no sense to me that he'd fly into a rage over that. For your wife, maybe staying late at work one night meant you were never coming home. My H would think I was going to cheat on him too, as if I would even have considered that. All I wanted was some sleep. But to him, that was unforgivable rejection.

NW, I used to get up with the kids at night to help her out and I was working two jobs. 

It seemed like I never got any rest or sleep.  When I did have a day off she always seemed to have a list of things she needed done or wanted to buy.  When she bought stuff, it always involved me putting it together.  I can see now that she would reward me with sex to do all of this stuff.

Then, I guess she got everything she wanted and told me "things change get over it" when it came to sex. 

I never got over it.

It especially bothers me when I hear her discussing how much she loves Shades of Gray.  Really, I haven't seen my wife naked in over a decade.  We had them most vanilla sex a couple could have the few times she would actually let me touch her.

[workinprogress]

Oh, and her radar must be on, because she is being very nice to me this weekend.

[waverider]

Just taking stock of where you are at for a moment, Have you learned and applied the tools on here?

If so did anything change?

Did your understanding change?

Have you changed as a result, and what is different about you?

The staying Board is not about staying at all costs. It is about committing to trying to make things better while in a relationship. The goal is to bring clarity about why things are the way they are, what you can change, what you can't. What you are willing to live like.

At the end of this you should reach a status of balance whereby you know what you want, in the knowledge that you will be either better in, or out, of the relationship with all those "what ifs" answered.

Have you reached a stage where if you leave you are confident that you won't be struggling with the "what ifs"? Hence being vulnerable to recycling and all the messiness that creates.  

To leave there will be high drama, big promises and big threats, hence being locked in to you decision will be tested. If you get stuck into staying but always feeling like one foot out the door you wont be authentic, and nothing will work out well

[Notwendy]

To leave there will be high drama, big promises and big threats, hence being locked in to you decision will be tested. If you get stuck into staying but always feeling like one foot out the door you wont be authentic, and nothing will work out well

I really think this says it well. Being authentic is a good goal- and a tough one. I think that working on the relationship came from working on myself and my issues that were contributing to the problems. I think the lessons on not making things worse here are excellent. We tend to explain ourselves and that feels invalidating to them. This is very painful to them.

The intimacy part is tough and there are hurt feelings on both sides over this. As to the Shades of Grey talk- I know it is hurtful but I'd take it as what it is- talk about the latest thing. I haven't read the book or seen the movie, but with all the hype, most everyone knows what it is about. The leading man is all that- good looking and successful- and what I hear- emotionally abusive. That doesn't sound appealing to me. However, people have been going to see it in droves.

Someone with a poor sense of self might not be able to have an unpopular opinion about something so popular. My mom seems to copy the going thing- if it's popular she takes on the stance that she likes it too- to fit in. My guess is that this is what your wife may be doing- just talking so that she can feel she fits in too. However, one idea if she is talking so much about it is for you to show up with some handcuffs.

[workinprogress]

Just taking stock of where you are at for a moment, Have you learned and applied the tools on here?

If so did anything change?

Did your understanding change?

Have you changed as a result, and what is different about you?

The staying Board is not about staying at all costs. It is about committing to trying to make things better while in a relationship. The goal is to bring clarity about why things are the way they are, what you can change, what you can't. What you are willing to live like.

At the end of this you should reach a status of balance whereby you know what you want, in the knowledge that you will be either better in, or out, of the relationship with all those "what ifs" answered.

Have you reached a stage where if you leave you are confident that you won't be struggling with the "what ifs"? Hence being vulnerable to recycling and all the messiness that creates.  

To leave there will be high drama, big promises and big threats, hence being locked in to you decision will be tested. If you get stuck into staying but always feeling like one foot out the door you wont be authentic, and nothing will work out well

I have read over the tools, and haven't really had time to make them a part of my daily life.  I will start making a conscious effort to expand my tools when dealing with BPD.

I don't know if she would make high drama and big promises if I left.  I believe that she would approach me afterwards wanting things returned to normal. 

She is very easily influenced by her friends.  So, it really depends on what she is being coached to what she wants in life.

Thanks for your response.

[workinprogress]

However, one idea if she is talking so much about it is for you to show up with some handcuffs.

I just might do that.