Why do we place so much value on what others Tell us?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've posted here often about the power and seduction of Words. Seducers and manipulators have various tools and assets at their disposal. Herein, I'm not specifically pointing to BPD's, it can orators, politicians or a loved one. I truly believe Words are one of the most effective weapons used. Whether they actually realize it our have simply learned by the effects and powerful reactions of others, Words are the arrows they hold in their quiver along with other types of tools.

It took me a while and several recycles to realize that I had to focus on my BPDx's Actions, not on her words.

It helped me set up stronger boundaries unfortunately that created a power struggle in her mind and she walked.

Words spoken or written are far too easy to toss around but far more effective to mislead. I'm not sure why as humans we are so hung up on what someone says or writes to us VS. what they actually do for us. Seems some people would rather "hear" someone tell them I Love You 10 X a day then focus on that one random, true act of kindness. I would say pay attention to what someone Does, not what they Say.

So why is it that we place so much value on what others tell us?

“The next time you try to seduce anyone, don't do it with talk, do with words.

Women know more about words than men ever will. And they know how little they can ever possibly mean.”

― William Faulkner

[dagwoodbowser]

I've posted here often about the power and seduction of Words. Seducers and manipulators have various tools and assets at their disposal. Herein, I'm not specifically pointing to BPD's, it can orators, politicians or a loved one. I truly believe Words are one of the most effective weapons used. Whether they actually realize it our have simply learned by the effects and powerful reactions of others, Words are the arrows they hold in their quiver along with other types of tools.

It took me a while and several recycles to realize that I had to focus on my BPDx's Actions, not on her words.

It helped me set up stronger boundaries unfortunately that created a power struggle in her mind and she walked.

Words spoken or written are far too easy to toss around but far more effective to mislead. I'm not sure why as humans we are so hung up on what someone says or writes to us VS. what they actually do for us. Seems some people would rather "hear" someone tell them I Love You 10 X a day then focus on that one random, true act of kindness. I would say pay attention to what someone Does, not what they Say.

So why is it that we place so much value on what others tell us?

“The next time you try to seduce anyone, don't do it with talk, do with words.

Women know more about words than men ever will. And they know how little they can ever possibly mean.”

― William Faulkner

[Olivia_D]

I have often thought about this very same thing.  As an attorney, I analyze words for a living and I am trained to extract all of the plausible meanings.  It is a challenge to unlearn what I was educated to do and what I do on a daily basis.  However, before being a lawyer, I was quite analytical with words (which is how I ended up going to law school-lol). 

I think it may stem from our early beginnings.  We are told by our parents to listen up and follow the rules; we are told by our teachers to listen up and follow the rules.  We are guided on a daily basis with road signs on where and how to drive.  It is my opinion that over time, we stop "watching" and "observing" as much as we listen to the words or instructions.  This indoctrination of being taught to listen up shifts our natural focus from our gut instinct to operating from our trained brain.  I would imagine that cave people, who were without words, operated purely from observation and had to rely upon visual cues.  For me, the written word is so indoctrinated in my brain that I allow words to trump what my gut is telling me, this is particularly true when the words align with what my heart wants.  The same thing is true in recovering from the post-BPD relationship as the words that were said--which could have been written for whatever manipulative purpose--tend to resonate and "still" challenge the current and previous behaviors.  It is rather ridiculous when the fantasy words don't hold muster with the actual actions and you are still perplexed.  I may have been the dumb girl (not actually) that didn't get it but I don't want to be the dumb girl who will never get it.  Goodness gracious, this is absurd.  The actions, or lack thereof, were screaming for me to strap on my Nikes and run far, far away.  Geesh.  I'm gonna buy myself some new Nikes.

[valet]

I think that it because our brains are hardwired to form bonds and build communities that we do this. Basically, it is about survival. The more of us there are grouped up, the more high our odds become.

The words/actions continuum is probably how we end up judging the credibility of others on a subconscious level. Those whose ratio of words:actions that align most similarly with our own words and actions are the people that we end up spending the most time with, perhaps. Everyone has different tastes, but the mechanisms are the same.

Personally, I try not to take the words of others as true, and am more concerned with my own ability to discern a situation for what it actually is. I'm not perfect at it, but as I get older I get better.

Giving yourself solitude and time to think aids this process. You have to be on your own a lot to figure out that you can actually question things.

[going places]

So why is it that we place so much value on what others tell us?

This is my opinion, based upon my experience... .

Expectations.

We want to meet or exceed the expectation.

I am not a fan of words... .I am a 'show me' type of gal.

HOWEVER words can teach us A LOT about an individual, if we 'truly' listen

If we 'listen' to hear, and not listen to 'respond' we can know more about a person in a 15 min conversation than folks who have known them FOR YEARS.

Words and body language will give up a LOT of information on a person.

Actions will prove what kind of person you are dealing with.

[fromheeltoheal]

Studies have shown that 'communication' can be broken down into 3 parts: words, tone of voice and body language.  Body language accounts for 55% of the 'message', tone of voice accounts for 38%, and the remaining 7% is the words.  Obviously those numbers are pretty specific and where they came from and what the variables are would be important if you want to dig, but the point is that when we're with someone we're getting the whole message, when we're on the phone we're only getting the words and tone of voice, 45%, and here or in text or email we're only getting 7% of the 'whole' message.  One key is the congruency, or lack of it, among the 3 modes: as an example if someone is lying when they say something, we can tell by maybe a little shakiness in their tone of voice and their facial expression that the words they are saying are not true; it's not the words specifically but whether or not the other modalities are congruent with the words.  Humans are social animals and we get really good at 'reading' other people, but it's important that we communicate in person to get the whole message.  And then, sometimes we get fixated on the words and ignore the rest; there's an article on this site that talks about 'clinging to the words that were said' and ignoring the behaviors, and we all know where that leads.  And of course some speakers get very good at being congruent in their message when they're trying to manipulate, but that's only when they're focusing on being congruent, best to observe over time to see if they can sustain it or there are cracks.

Which brings me to my ex.  She was insistent that we communicate by text mostly in the relationship, saying she had teenage kids and that's how they communicated and it was convenient.  Well, I learned the hard way that she could create a persona by text that bore little resemblance to the real her, and a smartphone is an attachment device that a borderline can use to retain an attachment at an emotional distance, a way to deal with the push/pull that is motivated by the fears at the core of the disorder; keep someone close but not too close to temper the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment.  Enter that at your own risk, and I did; when the meat of the relationship is 40 text messages a day there isn't much real communication going on, and the real her was a relative stranger I didn't like much.  Silly me, live and learn, but at least these days it's in person or nothing with people, except you guys here, and I'm considering that growth.

[going places]

My ex's phone has become an extension of him.

I told him to leave, July 2014.

He has not seen our youngest daughter (now 21) since Aug, 2014.

He has not picked up the phone and called her.

He has texted her, emailed her, but it's only once a months, or on holidays... .

He has not seen our oldest daughter (now 24) since September 2014.

He has not picked up the phone and called her.

He sends her a text for holidays.

He has seen our son (now 23).

The boy will text with him, (being a college student, it is easier to text w him because he is 4 states away and very busy). So the ex will communicate with him because it is the ex's preferred way of comm.

It's sick.

He won't use his phone to call and hear their voices; and because they will not comm. w/ him HIS way, he just doesn't comm. w/ the girls at all.

What kind of monster does that to his own daughters?

If it's not "I'm on my way" or "can you pick up milk on your way home"... .I am not 'texting'.

Texts are for simple things like above.

NOT conversations, of the "face to face" relational type... .

[BorisAcusio]

Studies have shown that 'communication' can be broken down into 3 parts: words, tone of voice and body language.  Body language accounts for 55% of the 'message', tone of voice accounts for 38%, and the remaining 7% is the words.  Obviously those numbers are pretty specific and where they came from and what the variables are would be important if you want to dig, but the point is that when we're with someone we're getting the whole message, when we're on the phone we're only getting the words and tone of voice, 45%, and here or in text or email we're only getting 7% of the 'whole' message.  One key is the congruency, or lack of it, among the 3 modes: as an example if someone is lying when they say something, we can tell by maybe a little shakiness in their tone of voice and their facial expression that the words they are saying are not true; it's not the words specifically but whether or not the other modalities are congruent with the words.  Humans are social animals and we get really good at 'reading' other people, but it's important that we communicate in person to get the whole message.  And then, sometimes we get fixated on the words and ignore the rest; there's an article on this site that talks about 'clinging to the words that were said' and ignoring the behaviors, and we all know where that leads.  And of course some speakers get very good at being congruent in their message when they're trying to manipulate, but that's only when they're focusing on being congruent, best to observe over time to see if they can sustain it or there are cracks.

Which brings me to my ex.  She was insistent that we communicate by text mostly in the relationship, saying she had teenage kids and that's how they communicated and it was convenient.  Well, I learned the hard way that she could create a persona by text that bore little resemblance to the real her, and a smartphone is an attachment device that a borderline can use to retain an attachment at an emotional distance, a way to deal with the push/pull that is motivated by the fears at the core of the disorder; keep someone close but not too close to temper the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment.  Enter that at your own risk, and I did; when the meat of the relationship is 40 text messages a day there isn't much real communication going on, and the real her was a relative stranger I didn't like much.  Silly me, live and learn, but at least these days it's in person or nothing with people, except you guys here, and I'm considering that growth.

That was very insightful, fromheeltoheal. During our almost 3 years interaction, almost all of the nice things she said came in a form of text messages. I should have immidiately noted the huge and obvious discrepancy between her words and actions.

[fromheeltoheal]

Studies have shown that 'communication' can be broken down into 3 parts: words, tone of voice and body language.  Body language accounts for 55% of the 'message', tone of voice accounts for 38%, and the remaining 7% is the words.  Obviously those numbers are pretty specific and where they came from and what the variables are would be important if you want to dig, but the point is that when we're with someone we're getting the whole message, when we're on the phone we're only getting the words and tone of voice, 45%, and here or in text or email we're only getting 7% of the 'whole' message.  One key is the congruency, or lack of it, among the 3 modes: as an example if someone is lying when they say something, we can tell by maybe a little shakiness in their tone of voice and their facial expression that the words they are saying are not true; it's not the words specifically but whether or not the other modalities are congruent with the words.  Humans are social animals and we get really good at 'reading' other people, but it's important that we communicate in person to get the whole message.  And then, sometimes we get fixated on the words and ignore the rest; there's an article on this site that talks about 'clinging to the words that were said' and ignoring the behaviors, and we all know where that leads.  And of course some speakers get very good at being congruent in their message when they're trying to manipulate, but that's only when they're focusing on being congruent, best to observe over time to see if they can sustain it or there are cracks.

Which brings me to my ex.  She was insistent that we communicate by text mostly in the relationship, saying she had teenage kids and that's how they communicated and it was convenient.  Well, I learned the hard way that she could create a persona by text that bore little resemblance to the real her, and a smartphone is an attachment device that a borderline can use to retain an attachment at an emotional distance, a way to deal with the push/pull that is motivated by the fears at the core of the disorder; keep someone close but not too close to temper the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment.  Enter that at your own risk, and I did; when the meat of the relationship is 40 text messages a day there isn't much real communication going on, and the real her was a relative stranger I didn't like much.  Silly me, live and learn, but at least these days it's in person or nothing with people, except you guys here, and I'm considering that growth.

That was very insightful, fromheeltoheal. During our almost 3 years interaction, almost all of the nice things she said came in a form of text messages. I should have immidiately noted the huge and obvious discrepancy between her words and actions.

Yep, the technology of the new millennium is supposed to help us, but it's new so we need to be careful; it appears to have become a godsend for folks who need to keep control of the emotional distance in a relationship and/or have something to hide behind.  I do it myself with business emails; much easier to say something that is hard to say by email than to call someone or go see them in person, it gives me something to hide behind.  But human nature doesn't change very fast, and there is still no substitute for ditching the gadgets and spending quality time in person.  And if the time in person is not quality, time for an upgrade.

[dagwoodbowser]

I think it may stem from our early beginnings.  We are told by our parents to listen up and follow the rules; we are told by our teachers to listen up and follow the rules.  We are guided on a daily basis with road signs on where and how to drive.  It is my opinion that over time, we stop "watching" and "observing" as much as we listen to the words or instructions.  This indoctrination of being taught to listen up shifts our natural focus from our gut instinct to operating from our trained brain.  I would imagine that cave people, who were without words, operated purely from observation and had to rely upon visual cues.

Olivia: Great perspectives. As toddlers we have some pretty basic goals. Sleep, figure out how to get to a breast, crawl around to get stuff in our mouth and get our needs met. What do babies do when they want something?

They cry. Action=Reaction. The realization that by making a loud,throaty noise you can get your needs met. Later we want to hear "Good boy/girl!" or the negative show stopper "NO!"

Cave dwellers had to be in close proximity to each other. You did good... .You got a grunt and a few thumps on the shoulder. You did bad, a punch in the gut or a good clubbing. Words or throat sounds were likely more to get someones attention or to warn of danger.

Well, I learned the hard way that she could create a persona by text that bore little resemblance to the real her, and a smartphone is an attachment device that a borderline can use to retain an attachment at an emotional distance, a way to deal with the push/pull that is motivated by the fears at the core of the disorder; keep someone close but not too close to temper the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment.  Enter that at your own risk, and I did; when the meat of the relationship is 40 text messages a day there isn't much real communication going on, and the real her was a relative stranger I didn't like much.

Yep, the technology of the new millennium is supposed to help us, but it's new so we need to be careful; it appears to have become a godsend for folks who need to keep control of the emotional distance in a relationship and/or have something to hide behind.  I do it myself with business emails; much easier to say something that is hard to say by email than to call someone or go see them in person, it gives me something to hide behind.

fromheeltoheal: My opinion is that technology is going to turn a majotity of new generations into Socially Phobic individuals. I've seen young couples sitting at a table across from each other saying what they want to say by text? I do beleive we all take on a Computer/Smart Phone Persona. Why not? We can be, become or say whomever we want to be.


"It is hard to make people listen; they are consumed with their own thoughts and desires, and have little time for yours. The trick to making them listen is to say what they want to hear, to fill their ears with whatever is pleasant to them. This is the essence of seductive language. Inflame people’s emotions with loaded phrases, flatter them, comfort their insecurities, envelop them in sweet words and promises, and not only will they listen to you, they will lose their will to resist you."

-Robert Green, author 48 Laws of Power

[vortex of confusion]

I haven't read all of the replies. I was reminded of this quote when reading the first post in this thread:

“To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves... .and most of us were taught as children that we could not be trusted.”

― John Holt

It is how society is set up. Teach children that they can't be trusted and that the adults have all of the answers. Then, when a person becomes an adult, it is difficult to transition from one day being the kid that nobody trusts to the adult that is suddenly supposed to have answers and be able to trust him/herself.

[fromheeltoheal]

fromheeltoheal: My opinion is that technology is going to turn a majotity of new generations into Socially Phobic individuals. I've seen young couples sitting at a table across from each other saying what they want to say by text? I do beleive we all take on a Computer/Smart Phone Persona. Why not? We can be, become or say whomever we want to be.

Yes, but there's a backlash too.  The internet has only been in mass use for 20 years and smartphones for 10, brand new in human terms, and folks are beginning to see the downside of disconnected communication.  They have their uses, but also significant limitations, as we've discussed above, and folks like me have felt the pain of that disconnect when it comes to interpersonal communication and relationships.  Then again, this site wouldn't be possible without it, so there's benefit too.

Then again again, maybe younger generations will integrate all of it into a culture that we can't imagine yet, and it will change the way humans interact, and therefore human nature in ways we can't see yet.  I'll be dead before we find out, but for now, time to turn off our gadgets and go connect in the real world, he said, typing on the internet... .

[Achaya]

For me, part of why I place value on what my ex told me is that I am basically honest, and I have never understood people who manipulate others. I don't understand it well enough to anticipate it and protect myself from it. It took me a long time to even recognize how naive I was---I thought everybody said what they meant and only after thinking about what that was.

I started watching my ex's behavior because it became obvious that she is a person of emotion and action, and not a talker. The only way to discern what she really felt, wanted or didn't want was to analyze her behavior after the fact. The problem I have is that her behavior tells an inconsistent story, one without a single narrator. I find this is how it is, wherever I look to her communications to get an understanding of what happened between us.

What I really want is a relationship in which I can trust both my partner's words and other communications, because they are consistent with each other and remain so to a normal extent over time.

[Irish Pride]

So why is it that we place so much value on what others tell us?

For me, it only matters what the people I love think. And that's ok when you're talking about your children. One of my biggest problems is that my self-worth is defined by how the ones I love the most think of me.

As a child, my parents weren't the warmest blankets in the closet. In fact, my father was outright cold. My mother was better, but not by a whole lot. I sought validation of my existence through them. They were my parents! Rarely did I get a pat on the back (most likely a smack), words of encouragement, nothing. So, as I grew up, I sought my self-worth through others. Friends, girlfriends, other relatives. This backfired BAD. Became a very angry (duh... .I'm Irish , very confused, very pessimistic lad. I carried a big chip on my shoulder for a long time. A long time. This is why it hurt SO BAD when I first broke up w/my BPDx. In the beginning, I was her world. She even made a shirt that said "Holy Nolie". That was my nickname that very few call me and an often yelled phrase after sex, between us. I thought that rocked! She actually made time to make a shirt like that. And, just like that, I was sucked under. I respected her intelligence (which she is), her insights, her opinions, her humor, her looks, her body... .everything. She was, at the time, the PERFECT woman for me.

But then, as we all know how this story ends, she changed. Everything became my fault. My insecurities. My past. My relationship with my parents. To go from being the King of her world to some piece of shyte she stepped in, almost completely broke me. My heart, my mind, my soul. Shattered. Long story short, I fought back. I'm a fighter and I refuse to stay down after getting KO'd. If, for anything else, my children.

Why so much value? For me, it's because I was desperate for the positive attention I never got as a child. I always questioned myself. Always doubted myself. No self-confidence. Now, it's still there, but it's more like the lingering smell of a fire that's gone out, rather than being consumed by the fire itself. No one defines who I am, but me. No one defines my happiness, but me. No one defines my life, but me.