Difficult Therapist appointment yesterday

[Michelle27]

I finished a set of 10 counseling sessions a month ago in which I worked on my anger and resentments over my uBPDh's behaviors as well as my own anger at myself for putting up with it.  I also wanted to make a decision on whether to stay in the relationship or end it.  I worked through setting boundaries and set two that were important to me.  The consequence of him crossing one of them was that we would need to separate.  Less than a week after my last counseling session, (coincidence or not? I don't know... .), sure enough, he crossed that boundary and now we are separated.  I see it as a therapeutic separation while we both work on our own stuff in hopes of being less triggered.  On his part, he is attending a men's group, CBT classes, getting involved with our local mental health organization with the goal of getting into DBT and has recently signed up for anger management.  The problem is that I don't know if he is truly doing this for him or just to keep me. 

Once we worked out the separation details (I rented a room elsewhere so that we can take turns a week at a time so that our daughter stays in the same home and gets time with both of us).  My purpose is to lessen the daily anxiety I feel wondering when the next rage is coming and for him, to be less triggered by me.  So far it's working well. 

I signed up for counseling again to make sure I am handling this separation on  my end properly and got rather shocked by the counselor's reaction.  I am seeing the same one I saw before.  She was pleased that I enforced my boundary but basically said that I am living a 14 year old girl's fantasy of hoping he will be "fixed".  She went on about the red flags of abuse and said that while she never recommends breaking things off, in my case, she doesn't believe he has it in him to change the basic personality problems inherent in a personality disorder.  I didn't know how to take it... .and feel very discouraged now about what I was trying to accomplish. 

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

She was pleased that I enforced my boundary but basically said that I am living a 14 year old girl's fantasy of hoping he will be "fixed".  She went on about the red flags of abuse and said that while she never recommends breaking things off, in my case, she doesn't believe he has it in him to change the basic personality problems inherent in a personality disorder. 

I understand this isn't what you wanted to hear, but it's not really inconsistent with what you'll read here... .Sure there are some success stories, where life becomes tolerable, but overall pwBPD are what they are and if you're willing, there are some tips here to make life passable.

If you think you can do something so he'll "get it" and life will be as fulfilling as all your friends, think again.

[Loosestrife]

Hi

Sounds like a very disheartening session and I can see why as your T was supportive of you staying in the relationship before, or at least trying to. My first reaction as a non would be the question if the T was a bit bored of the problem and has lost patience/tolerance? And I would get a bit degensive  if it was my SO as who is the T to judge my SO?

But then I think honestly about my situation - I have not been living with SO for 6 months, but spending lots of time together with boundaries in place and things have improved somewhat. However, I know that if we do live together full time again then the dysregulation will increase, and this is likely to get even worse if we marry. My SO is also in group T and although I know it may help a bit, it's not going to change things dramatically.  Therefore I have to agree with what  Isitherorisitme has posted. I think you need to let go of why your h is doing his T and concentrate on what you want in your  long term future if this is genuinely 'how it is'

L

[Michelle27]

Hi

Sounds like a very disheartening session and I can see why as your T was supportive of you staying in the relationship before, or at least trying to. My first reaction as a non would be the question if the T was a bit bored of the problem and has lost patience/tolerance? And I would get a bit degensive  if it was my SO as who is the T to judge my SO?

But then I think honestly about my situation - I have not been living with SO for 6 months, but spending lots of time together with boundaries in place and things have improved somewhat. However, I know that if we do live together full time again then the dysregulation will increase, and this is likely to get even worse if we marry. My SO is also in group T and although I know it may help a bit, it's not going to change things dramatically.  Therefore I have to agree with what  Isitherorisitme has posted. I think you need to let go of why your h is doing his T and concentrate on what you want in your  long term future if this is genuinely 'how it is'

L

Funny, she did mention that she wouldn't want to be discussing how to handle things 6 months from now still.  Things as they are, that is. 

I don't know what I expected except the feeling I got from her in the first set of sessions was that she didn't believe I would be able to stand my ground in the face of my boundary being crossed.  I optimistically thought she'd be pleased that I did and although she did mention towards the end of the session that she was proud of me, the rest of it, I felt hammered by comments like, "the hard part is over, why don't you just go ahead and file for divorce?  He may never change, so why prolong the agony of limbo for you both?". 

I don't know... .maybe she's right.  I have hung on and tolerated so much crap and I have tried to be optimistic for so long that it just seems like I may just hanging onto something that isn't a guarantee... .which is a normal healthy relationship at some point.  So much to think about... .

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Michelle27, The important thing, in my view, is figuring out what works for you in terms of your marriage and your H's behavior.  I view your "therapeutic separation" as a an opportunity for growth and I admire you for enforcing your boundaries.  You may find that life can be quite tranquil when you are not living 24/7 with a pwBPD.  For me, I love driving home after work without the expectation of a potential confrontation.  I can understand why you may be discouraged after the meeting w/your T, yet only you can determine whether your H has made progress along these lines.  Keep up the good work!  LuckyJim

[Loosestrife]

I can relate to what luckyjim says about going home without having to  worry  about someone else's mood - it's bliss!   

Two T's i have seen have been supportive towards me putting boundaries in place, but there has always been an underlying feeling that they want me to leave the relationship and the boundaries are a step towards this rather than staying. I suppose the T's have seen plenty if clients in the same boat over and over. My current T knows I am hif ready to leave so suggested I emerse myself into the relationship and see if I want yo live with it forever... .the T and I know it will implode at some point.

The truth is that your h has had these issues all his life and always will. It may have good patches, but he is sure  to always have bad patches too. What is best for your quality if life? Can you be happy in this relationship that will always be challenging?

[Michelle27]

That is something I have to come to terms with I guess.  If I was told now that it was just a fact that the problems really won't go away I can honestly say that I don't think I can plan to live the rest of my life lke this.  But I have hope, after reading success stories of recovery, or at least enough recovery to be able to not walk on eggshells all the time.  I was given a pretty grim reality check yesterday about the chances of that.  I do think I want to give it a chance but I'm unsure how long to give him working on himself before I decide I can truly relax enough.  I too am enjoying driving home after work knowing that for sure there won't be a rage directed at me this day.  Can I go back to that anxiety?  I don't know. 

[Michelle27]

Another thought that just came to me.  I am not a quitter.  I am stubborn and when I set a goal, I achieve it.  When I decided against going to university to be a lawyer against my parents' wishes, and lost their financial support, I shrugged and went after my passion, getting a two bachelor's degrees entirely on student loans.  I've also lost 140 lbs with no tricks, meal substitutes or gimmicks, just exercise and balanced food intake.  When I was asked to stop nursing my baby in a public place (which is illegal here), I didn't just slink away, I took the company to the Human Rights Tribunal and won.  When I married my husband, I knew it was "for better or worse" but I had no inklig that "worse" could include a mental illness that put my own sense of safety at risk.  Giving up isn't something I do easily.  I think this may  be part of my problem. 

[Panda39]

Another thought that just came to me.  I am not a quitter.  I am stubborn and when I set a goal, I achieve it.  When I decided against going to university to be a lawyer against my parents' wishes, and lost their financial support, I shrugged and went after my passion, getting a two bachelor's degrees entirely on student loans.  I've also lost 140 lbs with no tricks, meal substitutes or gimmicks, just exercise and balanced food intake.  When I was asked to stop nursing my baby in a public place (which is illegal here), I didn't just slink away, I took the company to the Human Rights Tribunal and won.  When I married my husband, I knew it was "for better or worse" but I had no inklig that "worse" could include a mental illness that put my own sense of safety at risk.  Giving up isn't something I do easily.  I think this may  be part of my problem. 

Sometimes "Giving up" isn't "Giving up" it's simply "Letting go". 

[patientandclear]

Another thought that just came to me.  I am not a quitter.  I am stubborn and when I set a goal, I achieve it.  When I decided against going to university to be a lawyer against my parents' wishes, and lost their financial support, I shrugged and went after my passion, getting a two bachelor's degrees entirely on student loans.  I've also lost 140 lbs with no tricks, meal substitutes or gimmicks, just exercise and balanced food intake.  When I was asked to stop nursing my baby in a public place (which is illegal here), I didn't just slink away, I took the company to the Human Rights Tribunal and won.  When I married my husband, I knew it was "for better or worse" but I had no inklig that "worse" could include a mental illness that put my own sense of safety at risk.  Giving up isn't something I do easily.  I think this may  be part of my problem. 

This is me, and it was the reason I stayed in an abusive (non-BPD) marriage for 14 years.  I think the only reason I've taken steps away from my r/s with my BPDex is that I vowed after extricating myself from my marriage that I would never try to stick it out through something that crossed that line into abuse again.  The abuse with my ex with BPD emotional only and much much more subtle.  But probably also much more damaging.  Even though I have a lot of doubt and regret, somehow, in my core programming, something changed to end the "can't give up" hardwired instructions I'd been responding to all my life.

These are tough decisions.  I do think the idea that your H will fundamentally change needs to be set aside.  Do you want THIS is the question -- THIS as it is.  Any reason you can't live separately permanently?  It may help to set aside preconceptions about how a marriage has to be configured.

[Michelle27]

I'm not sure how doable living separately permanently is.  We are stretching the budget currently with the additional $400 a month for a room to rent and likely, that room won't be available after September as the owner rents to students usually and has given us a reduced rate since it's the off season.  I had envisioned that in a few months, enough progress would be made that we could look at setting up a separate area of our townhouse as a bedroom with a lock for a place to retreat to.  At that point, I hoped we would be less triggering to each other than we are now.  I may have to discuss this possibility with him soon.  In the meantime, the rental room is working out well for me even though it is a pain to pack up for a week and move every 2 weeks.  I do like that we both get equal time with our daughter, which was the driving force behind this arrangement.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Michelle,

Like you, I'm a resilient over-achiever who can do well at most things I undertake.  Yet BPD proved too complex for me.  You may have good reasons for staying, but avoiding the label of "quitter" should not be one of them, in my view.  To the contrary, I would suggest that recognizing one's own limitations in the face of a terrible mental disorder is a healthy response to a situation that almost defies solution.  I'm not saying that you can't make progress with your H or that you can't find an arrangement that works for you, but I am saying that one's loyalty can be misplaced in an abusive r/s with a pwBPD.  No one will give you a medal for it.

LuckyJim

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

You may have good reasons for staying, but avoiding the label of "quitter" should not be one of them, in my view.  To the contrary, I would suggest that recognizing one's own limitations in the face of a terrible mental disorder is a healthy response to a situation that almost defies solution.

In the words of a great philosopher... ."A mans gots to know his limitations... ."

[Waddams]

I used to get the "refuse to quit" attitude in difficult relationships as well.  And there are circumstances where it's appropriate.  Unfortunately, I think I misjudged what the appropriate circumstances should be for taking that position.

I realized that in my prior relationships things degenerated into the abuse and manipulation towards me, and tolerating it or "refusing to quit" was actually quitting on myself.  Refusing to quit should be done when there is a clear end goal that you know can be attained.  When the other person is disordered or otherwise not capable of being equally yoked with you, you can only over function while they underfunction.  They turn into an albatross around your neck.

At that point, it's better to not quit on yourself by refusing to let them drag you down with them.  You can't control them, and you can't thrive as long as you stay with them, so in order to move on and thrive in life, you have to leave.  Staying is really quitting on yourself and quitting on having a better future for yourself and your kids.  Staying ensures a better future won't happen when dealing with disordered partners.

So don't quit on yourself, your needs, and your child's needs.  You can build a better life that meets those needs better, you just have to be willing to identify what is stopping it from happening right now, address the obstacle, and move forward.  Anything else really is quitting on yourself because nothing will get better.

[Michelle27]

I suppose what it comes down to is hope vs radical acceptance.  I am obviously struggling with this.  *sigh*

[Lucky Jim]

They turn into an albatross around your neck. . . . At that point, it's better to not quit on yourself by refusing to let them drag you down with them.  You can't control them, and you can't thrive as long as you stay with them, so in order to move on and thrive in life, you have to leave. 

Nicely put, Waddams.  That sums up my experience w/ BPDxW.  Tough to swim with an albatross around one's neck, and I came close to drowning.  I want to thrive again.  LuckyJim

[an0ught]

Hi Michelle27,

I finished a set of 10 counseling sessions a month ago in which I worked on my anger and resentments over my uBPDh's behaviors as well as my own anger at myself for putting up with it.  I also wanted to make a decision on whether to stay in the relationship or end it.  I worked through setting boundaries and set two that were important to me.  The consequence of him crossing one of them was that we would need to separate.  Less than a week after my last counseling session, (coincidence or not? I don't know... .), sure enough, he crossed that boundary and now we are separated.  I see it as a therapeutic separation while we both work on our own stuff in hopes of being less triggered.  On his part, he is attending a men's group, CBT classes, getting involved with our local mental health organization with the goal of getting into DBT and has recently signed up for anger management.  The problem is that I don't know if he is truly doing this for him or just to keep me.  

and why is that a problem? Why do you care so much what motivates him to start changing? Do you truly believe it is even an either or question?

Looking at your situation:

- H in therapy

- H in anger management

- H shows active interest in DBT

- managed separation

- less anger displayed

- you in therapy

- you having backup here

all is positive, it is an almost perfect setup for recovery. You have come a long way since you joined in 2010.

No, you can't fix him, still he is working on it and there is progress. You can only work on yourself

That is something I have to come to terms with I guess.  If I was told now that it was just a fact that the problems really won't go away I can honestly say that I don't think I can plan to live the rest of my life lke this.  But I have hope, after reading success stories of recovery, or at least enough recovery to be able to not walk on eggshells all the time.  I was given a pretty grim reality check yesterday about the chances of that.  I do think I want to give it a chance but I'm unsure how long to give him working on himself before I decide I can truly relax enough.  I too am enjoying driving home after work knowing that for sure there won't be a rage directed at me this day.  Can I go back to that anxiety?  I don't know.  

Therapy won't make things better. Boundaries and skills (which means practice, practice and practice of specific behavior) do. You already see that distance through your living arrangement - which forced a higher level of respect - is having a real impact. People can learn to be a lot more validating. People can learn to respect boundaries and also to protect them. People can learn to twist less. People can learn to take proactive steps to avoid being overwhelmed. Some things may be changing less e.g. I could imagine that high sensitivity may be in part biological. Compared with other mental conditions BPD is the one that responds quite well to targeted therapy but of course every one is different.

Concerns with respect to your own anxiety are quite valid. The drama of the past is vivid in our mind and we can get triggered easily - a lot of us suffer from depression and PTSD like symptoms  . You probably won't feel safe until you set a few boundaries in a new living setup and went through a hopefully much smaller extinction burst (no person likes to encounter boundaries and we all go through an extinction burst once in a while).

Before the T asked - were you in a decision situation? Do you feel there is a real need to decide at the moment?

[patientandclear]

The problem is that I don't know if he is truly doing this for him or just to keep me.

and why is that a problem? Why do you care so much what motivates him to start changing? Do you truly believe it is even an either or question?

For what it's worth, I'll share a different view on this.  My BPDex is constantly trying to figure out what he needs to tell women to get them to stay with him and like him.  One of his approaches is to ask what the other person needs, then quickly assure he that he will provide that thing ... .

Only to withdraw that thing, then deny to her and to others than he ever made the offer.  He acts puzzled why she ever thought otherwise.

He did this with his ex (whom I replaced and who replaced me).  She was very clear what he needed to say to stay with her.  Eventually he said those things, including things he very much does not believe or want.  He was doing it "for her" or "to keep her," and not "for him."  And he came to resent them enormously.  That resentment appears to have caused the end to their r/s.

In a recent re-connection episode, he and I discussed whether we should resume contact.  He wanted to know what were my "magic words."  What I needed him to say, in order not to leave him/end contact again (we have an informal NC arrangement).

I knew whatever I named, however healthy and objectively good it was, he would come to resent it because it was the price of Staying with Me.  Which makes sense.  I wouldn't want to be with someone had purchased that kind of access to me, with a bit of his soul.

So I do get Michelle's worry that he is doing treatment for her and not for him.  That said, Michelle, your guy is taking steps directly connnected to becoming a better partner.  If I gave my ex the magic words, he might say them, but he had no commitment to any deeper therapy or change to address the issues those words were related to.  Maybe in your case, the initial resentment might give way as he gained greater insight.

[Michelle27]

Thank you all.  I took a "break" from this and too much thinking for a few days which is exactly what I needed for some clarity and focus.  It also helped me think less negatively about the counseling session.  I did 10 sessions previously with the same counselor and she was often somewhat harsh with me but in order to make me think, which it did.  For her, counseling isn't about patting me on the head and saying, "aww" but about making progress, and while I did often have difficult moments with her, it always led to growth. 

Thank you all again.  Fantastic insight here.