Feeling down - update

[maxsterling]

Haha.  Yes, my screen name is from robotech.  I loved that show as a kid.  I'm surprised someone finally recognized it! 

Yes, I tend to find ways to be out of the house for just an hour or two, and it does help. 

This morning, I thought my medical issue was doing better - until just now the intense burning came back   Egad.  I'm still not convinced there isn't an infection in there.  I've got a script for a different antibiotic, so maybe this one will help. 

W tells me she doesn't want to go back to her T.  I'm not sure why, but I am sure eventually she will tell me.  This is a big deal.  My guess is this T told her some kind of ugly truth or put it upon her to change her behavior.  My guess?  T suggested BPD was the issue and not PTSD, or T strongly suggested against the pregnancy idea. 

Today we have to do the inevitable food shopping.  After that, I am going to do my best to work on my own projects. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[OffRoad]

I watched Robotech every afternoon at 4:30. And then made my kids watch it with me on DVD. Even after all these years, they still enjoyed it.

Drink some cranberry juice or cran-grape or cran-apple. It can't hurt and can only help. (Cranberry juice help inhibit bacteria growth-lots of studies out there)

Her T obviously said something that she didn't like.  She might change her mind if she has time to think about it, though.

[maxsterling]

Not exactly what the T said that upset her, but she did mention this morning that she hates it when doctors or therapists tell her to "work out".  She also mentioned her T said something about food that she disagreed with. 

From my experience *all* doctors tell you to eat healthier and exercise more.  I think my W is looking for a doctor to understand and validate her feeling that she can't eat healthier or work out because of her physical or emotional pain. 

[Grey Kitty]

Hey max... .can I hold your feet to the fire here?

Can you go away next weekend? If not, the one after that, or memorial day weekend?

If you don't make it happen, it's not gonna.

You are worth taking action like this. 

[maxsterling]

Wow.  Thought things had cooled a bit.   Thrn a very ugly mc session.   I am as black as ever.

[formflier]

Max,

Sorry about MC    Any new stuff... .or new nuance to how she is painting you black?


I'm going to up the ante on Grey Kitty some... .and not just talk about this weekend... .but  regular time away.

Maybe not a fixed schedule... .but something regular. 

Thoughts?

FF

[maxsterling]

Oh, it's the exact same argument on her end:

- I don't communicate well enough

- We are too poor and I don't make enough money

- I don't tell her every minute detail about my heath or finances

- Her pain and stress >> > my pain and stress

- I am making her feel more stressed and depressed.

It's the same things EVERY time.  Of course, there is a rebuttal to all of that, that I don't mention because the JADE would make things worse.  But I have a bloody tongue from biting it so hard:

- She doesn't listen well enough.  She has the same communication complaint about everyone she meets.

- She doesn't work.  The student loan debt is hers. 

- she asks for details that don't even exist. 

- She expects me to listen to her complaints of pain, but mine are dismissed. 

- She was stressed and depressed before she met me.

The difference this time is that there is the underlying "potential baby" talk.  She's already setting the stage to blame it on me if something goes wrong on that front - such as saying if she was pregnant and I put her though this much stress, she would miscarry and it would be my fault.

I did hear that she wanted to kill herself 4 times last night, and once that she wanted to kill me.   Yikes. That's definitely a new level.  I'm at work now, and need to take the time to calm.  But I think as soon as I get time and calm a bit, I think it is about time to start documenting dates and times of some of this stuff, making a recording app easily accessible on my phone, and researching the D option. 

[formflier]

 

Boy... .tough one.

My hope would be... .now that she is seeing a T... .and a P... .that we can shift some of the burden to them. 

They can listen to her stuff... .and you can listen to less of it.


Has she ever said something about killing you before?

FF

[maxsterling]

Well, her dealings with P are that she wants to quit taking meds.  Her shift now is to blame that on me.  So, it's not like the P is helping her stabilize on meds, and instead is helping her with the plan to come off meds.  Ideal situation would be for her to call him, tell him the troubles she is having coming off meds, and actually working with him.

She's decided, for whatever reason, she does not like the T she has been seeing.   My guess is it has to do with T telling her something she did not want to hear.  Best guess on my end is T put it on her too much to change her behavior rather than playing the PTSD/victim role.  That's just a hunch on my part because typically that is what happens when my wife gets this upset.

Good news is, she was on the phone this morning looking for a new T. 

As for threatening to kill me - I think this is the first time I have heard anything like that. 

[formflier]

 

Hmmm... .just me thinking outloud.

Do you like the current T?

I'm thinking something along the lines of she needs to keep going for xx months... .before discussing a switch with her mental health team. 

Not sure who all will be on that team... .but needs to be coordinated effort.

Maybe this is where the "babytalk" need to get harsh.

If you stop your treatment and therapy... .baby talk is over.

Note... .that is not saying if you keep doing it... .she gets a baby... .but you won't even discuss it... .without her being in treatment.

Hmmm.

FF

[Verbena]

Max, I went back and read some of your posts from way back, some from a year ago.  I'm just astonished that you have been able to endure it all.   

Her threatening to kill you is not something you should take lightly.  I fear one day you just won't be posting here anymore, and we will all be wondering why. 

I feel that your body and your heart are warning you.  Can you take five more years of this?  Ten more? 

Your idea of documentation seems to be a good one.  Can you imagine if you had every rage since you've known her on video and just sat and watched them all?  Hours upon hours of screaming and violence?  The cumulative effect of all that is weighing heavy on you, and I don't see her stopping until she has completely destroyed you. 

[Notwendy]

It might be that if she is coming off her meds, she is getting worse. This may reinforce the idea that she really needs them.

I don't need to remind you that it takes two to make a baby, and even one person can make sure a baby does not happen, if you do nothing to make that baby, or let her get to you at a weak moment. You do have some say in this- to be a father if and when you choose to be.

[maric]

Max, I went back and read some of your posts from way back, some from a year ago.  I'm just astonished that you have been able to endure it all.   

Her threatening to kill you is not something you should take lightly.  I fear one day you just won't be posting here anymore, and we will all be wondering why. 

I feel that your body and your heart are warning you.  Can you take five more years of this?  Ten more? 

Your idea of documentation seems to be a good one.  Can you imagine if you had every rage since you've known her on video and just sat and watched them all?  Hours upon hours of screaming and violence?  The cumulative effect of all that is weighing heavy on you, and I don't see her stopping until she has completely destroyed you. 

Dear Max, I second what Verbena said. I have been reading your posts from a long time and that's the first time I read you talking about divorce. Please REALLY consider this option. This woman is destroying you! How much your body can take? You need and deserve some peace in your life!

This is not about her BPD anymore, is about YOU!

[maxsterling]

Here is the part I don't get - but then again I am trying to think logically, so naturally I won't "get" it.

She seems to be resentful of me for our poor financial status.  So last night was the whole speech again about how I am not a provider, how I have no motivation to get a better job, how I have "trapped" her, etc.  Of course, my perspective is 180 degrees different here.  Then the big speech about how she has taken care of herself he whole life, doesn't need me, and the whole 9 yards. The ultimate conclusion as she was laying down to sleep was that she needs to look for a job of her own but does not know what she can do.

The attitude changed again today.  Now she is resentful of me for "forcing" her to get a job.  She said she applied for two, but can't stand to apply for more.  And she blamed me for forcing her to this... .

How 1+1 does not equal two here makes no sense to me.  She declares she can take care of herself, wants to take care of herself, yet when forced to take care of herself (such as fixing her own meals), she blames me for not taking care of her.

[ColdEthyl]

Here is the part I don't get - but then again I am trying to think logically, so naturally I won't "get" it.

She seems to be resentful of me for our poor financial status.  So last night was the whole speech again about how I am not a provider, how I have no motivation to get a better job, how I have "trapped" her, etc.  Of course, my perspective is 180 degrees different here.  Then the big speech about how she has taken care of herself he whole life, doesn't need me, and the whole 9 yards. The ultimate conclusion as she was laying down to sleep was that she needs to look for a job of her own but does not know what she can do.

The attitude changed again today.  Now she is resentful of me for "forcing" her to get a job.  She said she applied for two, but can't stand to apply for more.  And she blamed me for forcing her to this... .

How 1+1 does not equal two here makes no sense to me.  She declares she can take care of herself, wants to take care of herself, yet when forced to take care of herself (such as fixing her own meals), she blames me for not taking care of her.

I'm dealing with similar logic, Max. If you see my current post, you will get the full story. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276365.0

What I think it boils down to is the battle inside them everyday. They know what they SHOULD do, they know what the RIGHT thing to do is, but all of the excuses, the insecurities come flooding in, making it hard to see. Moments of clarity... .moments of murkiness.

The idea of taking that first step... .of having to be responsible is hard because once they do that... .they might 'fail', and failure isn't an option.

[Notwendy]

Max,

I'm going to chime in with the others and encourage you to decide what your truth is and to take care of yourself.

Many of your posts are focused on her. Today she says this, tomorrow she says that. Her realty changes by the moment. What about yours?

It is so hard to read your posts because this is the life I lived, with my parents and with my H for so long. I accepted their reality. But it wasn't mine. If my H got jealous of something that I didn't do, I really believed I was responsible, until one day when he was raging, I thought " this makes no sense to me at all".

I think my mother is at the most symptomatic end of the BPD spectrum.  The reality: mom could not ever hold down a job. Mom really had no personal power. Her entire way of getting things done was to a) terrorize us ( her family) into doing it, or providing it for her or b) pay someone to do it- housekeepers or others. One of the main differences between you and my dad was finances. My dad could afford to get household help, but it was a major part of our budget, for instance he was not able to help us kids with college, and we had to do without some things in order for him to do this for her. Still, dad's ability to get household help probably made the largest difference in our outcome as kids.

Often, mom would get mad at dad and say she was going off on her own, getting her own apartment. Sometimes she was so convincing, she had us believing that he was the one who was the problem and she was perfectly fine. We were kids and we had these alternating realities- what we saw, and what she ( and my dad played into it) told us.

I believe at these times, that mom was portraying her ideal self, the one she felt she had to live up to. Dad played into it. We were supposed to pretend that mom was normal, we were normal. She lies to us. I can not remember the last time she drove a car- she can not drive a car. It has been at least 40 years. Dad used to drive her everywhere, and even when he got too sick to drive she made him drive her. She even made him buy a new car, a car he maybe drove a couple of times before he died. She still has the car, she insists that she can drive it, and if we dare say she can't - she has a fit. When I come to visit her, I have to help her with everything. Taking mom anywhere is like going out with a small toddler. She gets lost and disoriented, or she gets hungry or needs the bathroom. This makes sense at her age. However, I have felt like the other adult in the family since I was 12- doing things for her like cooking, sewing, and other tasks that she told others she did.


I didn't wake up out of my family fog until I became a mother and then realized how crazy things were for me. There was always what I saw when I went home to visit, and then, what my parents said. The two do not connect. As far as mom is concerned, she is perfectly capable of doing things on her own. The truth: Dad left her enough money to have almost constant help. It just doesn't look strange anymore, since she is elderly and many people her age need help. The truth: she needed this much help since she was young too.

One of my father's difficulties was that my mother spoke to him all the time, and eventually, he bought into her reality. Her reality changed according to her moods. This is why your posts are so hard for me to read. So many times, Dad would say " your mother this, your mother that" and if we asked him, he'd say "well this is what your mother says". However, we were old enough to recognize that part of mental illness is that thinking and perception is distorted. Your wife may say one thing today, something else tomorrow, but what is real?

Yes, your wife says she is getting a job, wants a baby, can live on her own, doesn't need you... .but what is your truth?

[Grey Kitty]

Max:

1. Take care of yourself. I've suggested you make some space away from her happen on your part. I get a "that would be a good idea" but you don't mention taking any action.

2. She's gonna blame you for everything. It is what she does. Don't pick it up when she hands it to you, and exit circular arguments immediately when she does it.

You can't convince her that it isn't your fault or that it is her responsibility.

You can drive yourself nuts and ruin your health by listening to it, half-believing it, and trying to make sense out of the inconsistencies (both with itself and with reality)

Or you can enforce a boundary and end conversations like that with her.

[formflier]

Yes, your wife says she is getting a job, wants a baby, can live on her own, doesn't need you... .but what is your truth?

Deep down... .I'm thinking your wife wants you to live this out as well.  Needs you to live this out... .

FF

[maxsterling]

I think you guys are right.  Stop trying to figure out what my wife is up to, and take it at face value. 

Tonight she is working a volunteer job.  I'm relaxing, worked a bit in my garden, going to print up some of my artwork to see if I can get it displayed at a local coffee house, maybe apply for some kind of part time job that I will enjoy. 

[OffRoad]

Max, her dysregulation is taking you down. The further down you go, the further down she goes. Rinse and repeat. If you can't stabilize yourself, your own emotional and physical well being, you have nothing to help her with. Period.

Put on your own oxygen mask first.

[formflier]

I think you guys are right.  Stop trying to figure out what my wife is up to, and take it at face value. 

 

Max,

I'm going to defend you "JADE" if you will!   

If you spend time observing and figuring out your wife... .and that information gets to her P and T... .and you are able to keep yourself strong... .and your wife keeps participating in treatment... .

Then I think it is a worthy cause... .lot of ands there... .


New thought... .

Something has been bugging me for a bit.  If she has never mentioned killing you before... .then that was an escalation... .a big one.

Tough spot to be in... .does her T and P know about this?  What is your plan if it happens again?

Did you ever get to the point of a "standard response" to her threats of suicide?

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I agree with you. I think it is helpful to understand how she feels and thinks.

So permit me to JADE a little too- to clarify. What I meant was to not focus on specific fluctuating statements or feelings as being more than that. Patterns perhaps. I agree with being alert to the threat to kill him, but I don't know if this is a one time outburst or a more long standing idea.

My H has made some horrible insulting statements about me. I used to take them at face value, and feel very hurt. I would also act on them to prove that they were not true. I could not stand to think he thought these things about me. Then, he would act/say the opposite, tell me I'm a great wife and mom. This was very confusing. I would be thinking what the heck, which one am I? Then, I realized that if I acted according to what I thought was my best effort, if I believed that I was the best person I could be (albeit , we all make mistakes), then whatever he said/felt at the moment- either that I was horrible or the greatest, was his idea, but it didn't have to be mine. Shifting the focus off his moods onto my own ideas of trying my best was a change for me.

Growing up, the mantra in our house was " what is mother's mood?". Mother's mood dictated the tone of our home. It was like the thermostat. However, this kept us from having an idea of who we were, our moods, based on something besides her. Her mood was the measurement of how good we were as kids, but in reality, her mood was based on her feelings at the moment.

Yes, understanding patterns and behavior is very helpful. What I am getting at is for Max to check his feelings and his truth based on what he knows to be true. If his wife says something- does that mean it is true for him?

[maxsterling]

She's mentioned wanting to "kill" others before, mainly her father or stepmom.   Usually statements like "I feel like stabbing/shooting her in the face."  While I take those statements along with the emotions of the moment, I still take them quite seriously, because never ever in my life have I heard anyone else make a comment like that.  Maybe I am sheltered, I dunno.  I've heard people make threats of violence against others before, but never to the point of stabbing or shooting.

So right now, I take her comment toward me along the same line, but nonetheless still have to take it seriously.  Is she capable of that kind of violence towards another?  That borders on a philosophical question that makes me winder how anyone is capable.  But given the emotions of any given moment, and should the means be easily available, I think it possible.  In other words, not a good idea for me to keep a gun in the house. 

As fore her P and T - I do not have contact with either of them.  Would this be wise?  Right now, she is shopping for a new T - not sure why.  I will bring up this in MC, though... .

The thing here is that I need to calm myself down a bit first so that I am thinking rationally and not emotionally, and then be prepared to have the D as an option before I really start to get into this at MC or by contacting her T. 

[Cat Familiar]

Max, this is a different topic, but it relates to your thoughts about contacting your wife's therapists.

My husband was abusing pharmaceutical drugs and mixing them with large quantities of alcohol. Before I found this forum and realized that he had BPD, I had tried on many occasions to beg and plead with him to moderate his use. And you can imagine how badly my efforts were received.

I struggled for a long time--several years, about contacting his doctor who prescribes his medications. I was worried about violating his privacy. Finally this year when I had my physical, I told her. The way I phrased it was that I suspected that my husband wasn't being totally truthful about his use of alcohol and I was concerned that he was combining it with drugs.

She was great! When I told her how much he drank on a regular basis, she said "That's a lot!" She checked his prescription records, asked me if he was getting prescriptions elsewhere and then told me how often he had refilled his prescriptions. It put my mind at ease to realize that in recent times he had actually been behaving more moderately than a few years ago when he was being a total train wreck.

The takeaway I want to share with you was that she thanked me for telling her and was really kind and supportive. Professionals have very limited time with their patients/clients and they can't possibly know what goes on at home. I think they need to know about her making those threats. That's very serious.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .