Communication with BPD

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

How do you communicate with your BPD?

I need your advise. He left me a voice mail yesterday-- "Would you mind giving me a call back? I need to ask you a quick question".

So I responded, "Please email me your question. I would rather communicate with you in writing unless it is emergency involving our children so that you and I both are clear and remember what we discuss."

His respond is " Too much to type. Need to talk. We can recap the conversation in email for our records."

I contacted my lawyer and her responds is "If you want, I can send him a letter requesting that he only contact you about child-related issues and that if there is anything else he wants to discuss, he can send me something in writing or have his attorney contact me, and I’ll forward the information to you" You could respond to him to see if he can give you a little more information about what it is he wants to talk about.

So I texted asking more information about what it is he wants to talk about.

His text back to me, "It's going to be a long 12 years if you keep this up. Call me."  

We communicate mostly through emails and texts. changing dates, requesting money, tax issues, etc... .

I really want to say, "You want to ask me something? You can find time to type. Oh, BTW it must not be a quick question like you said. You still didn't give half of the mutual stock after giving you the half of the mutual fund I have. You didn't give me things that you said you will. You deceived me many times and you are not responding any of my emails about kids after school activities while you never see the kids without a woman. You started bringing a woman next to the kids room on their second visitation while you see them only twice a month. We are not divorced yet and you already bring our kids to the same bed with you and this number four woman. You say you so love the kids but many weekends you can't see the kids due to any activity you have. I have been giving you a $400 discount every month for a child support while you make six figures, almost twice of money I make, and the house rental income. And telling me you don't have money for kids after school activities!" I know I can't and I shouldn't. Plus, I still feel that I am walking on an egg shell.

To be honest, the conversation with him still scares me. It always goes wrong or him pushing me around and leaving me with this horrible feeling. Am I unreasonable trying to communicate in writing? Should I have my lawyer send the letter to him since he will be more angry with me once he gets the summon paper?

Thanks for you time and advise in advance.

[Godslove]

How do you communicate with your BPD?

I need your advise. He left me a voice mail yesterday-- "Would you mind giving me a call back? I need to ask you a quick question".

So I responded, "Please email me your question. I would rather communicate with you in writing unless it is emergency involving our children so that you and I both are clear and remember what we discuss."

His respond is " Too much to type. Need to talk. We can recap the conversation in email for our records."

I contacted my lawyer and her responds is "If you want, I can send him a letter requesting that he only contact you about child-related issues and that if there is anything else he wants to discuss, he can send me something in writing or have his attorney contact me, and I’ll forward the information to you" You could respond to him to see if he can give you a little more information about what it is he wants to talk about.

So I texted asking more information about what it is he wants to talk about.

His text back to me, "It's going to be a long 12 years if you keep this up. Call me."  

We communicate mostly through emails and texts. changing dates, requesting money, tax issues, etc... .

I really want to say, "You want to ask me something? You can find time to type. Oh, BTW it must not be a quick question like you said. You still didn't give half of the mutual stock after giving you the half of the mutual fund I have. You didn't give me things that you said you will. You deceived me many times and you are not responding any of my emails about kids after school activities while you never see the kids without a woman. You started bringing a woman next to the kids room on their second visitation while you see them only twice a month. We are not divorced yet and you already bring our kids to the same bed with you and this number four woman. You say you so love the kids but many weekends you can't see the kids due to any activity you have. I have been giving you a $400 discount every month for a child support while you make six figures, almost twice of money I make, and the house rental income. And telling me you don't have money for kids after school activities!" I know I can't and I shouldn't. Plus, I still feel that I am walking on an egg shell.

To be honest, the conversation with him still scares me. It always goes wrong or him pushing me around and leaving me with this horrible feeling. Am I unreasonable trying to communicate in writing? Should I have my lawyer send the letter to him since he will be more angry with me once he gets the summon paper?

Thanks for you time and advise in advance.

[livednlearned]

Hi GodsLove,

Good question! Communication skills are important for two reasons when divorcing a person with BPD. One is to keep everything documented in text (for court, if needed) and the other is to use some distance (best through text) to speed up the detachment process. So you can heal and move on, and not feel so triggered. If he still pushes you around when you talk, then stick to text. He'll probably try to manipulate or bully you into talking by making you seem difficult for setting a boundary. People who have no respect for your boundaries will do this -- they will start with a reasonable request, then when you say no, they will try another tactic. You say no, they try another tactic. As they realize that no means no, they will escalate to abuse. My therapist helped me with this. She said start counting the different ways he attempts to get around your boundaries, so I did. I started to detach from the abuse because I was so busy counting   and I began to see how boundaries work. After a few years post-divorce, he knew no meant no and I would get emails that just said, "You are a terrible person." It's like he was having an imaginary conversation with me, except the imaginary me kept saying no. So then I got the final comment in an email. "You suck, you're a whore." 

Of course, those showed up in court. 

Bill Eddy, who is a former social worker and lawyer, wrote a book called Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse. In that book he talks about BIFF statements when communicating with high-conflict people.

We have a skills section on the Coparenting board that has some resources for common coparenting issues, including communication (a big one!). https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331365#msg1331365

Here's one of the sections from those Lessons on BIFF statements:

Dealing with Hostile Communication After the Divorce

During divorce and beyond, hostile emails are common. Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger, authors of the book "Splitting," came up with something called the B.I.F.F. method for responding to them. Blamers love sending these hostile messages and use them to attack you, your family and friends, and professionals. It’s extremely tempting to respond the same way. Hostile e-mail has also become huge in family court, as a document used to show someone’s bad behavior. While you are encouraged to save copies of hostile e-mail sent to you, it is very important that you not send hostile e-mails to anyone. They will be used against you. Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=133835.0

[newlifeBPDfree]

I also opted to have communication in writing. Whenever he called me  I would be subject to insults and accusations and I really don't care to have this in my life anymore. I told him all communication with me regarding our daughter has to be in writing (text messages, which is his preferred method or emails).

I'm actually thinking of limiting the channels of communications even further to emails only. Somethimes when he rages I can get 100 + messages on my phone.

It's really difficult to have this requirement when communicating in regards to our daughter, but it's the only way to make sure everything is documented becuase he will deny having any type of discussion if it benefits him.

[Godslove]

Thank you for the book info. I love the book.

Ha ha I did it. He came to pick up kids and barked at me about picking up the phone because he wants to talk to kids. I told him that he can text me and I will have kids call him back... .(I didn't even have to say this right? I am learning... .). Today my lawyer sent him a letter about communicate with me in writing only related to children, everything eles, through the lawyer. I know my bill will be huge... .($300 an hour) but worth it. It was right after that he called, texted, and emailed about something other than the kids.

Now he is threatening not to bring the kids back for Mother's day. I was willing to get kids at the church on Sunday since the church is in the middle way. But he says no thank you, This is my weekend. if you want to see the kids for Mother's day, you come pick them up.

My sep. contract says husband shall be responsible for his visitation. My l says it includes pick ups and drop offs. I told him that multiple times and he says he knows but it is not fair. This is not the first time he tried this and one weekend, he texted I am not coming to pick up the kids. It is such a shame that kids are put in the middle because of the laziness. Then the following weekend, he says his car does not work. a new car... .I knew it was a lie but I went to get them. Maybe that was my mistake. Honestly I do not mind going to get the kids, however, he wants to get his way by pushing me around. He has no lawyers and got everything his way so far because of my previous lawyer's poor job.

Well... .I don't know what to do with the mother's day. I am not so caught up with I must spend time with my kids on MOTHERS Day person like his stepmother and real mother have been even though the fact my kids will spend time with his new girlfriend sucks. He told me already he can't have the kids on Father's Day weekends. I do not want to give in anymore. I called my l. to get advise. But she left for a day... .

[Panda39]

Now he is threatening not to bring the kids back for Mother's day. I was willing to get kids at the church on Sunday since the church is in the middle way. But he says no thank you, This is my weekend. if you want to see the kids for Mother's day, you come pick them up.

Did you get this in writing?  If so keep it for documentation... .shows uncooperative behavior.

Well... .I don't know what to do with the mother's day. I am not so caught up with I must spend time with my kids on MOTHERS Day

Maybe this is a case of picking your battle.  If you aren't particularly attached to celebrating Mother's Day** maybe you let him keep the kids. By doing so you do not give into his emotional blackmail and he loses his leverage to make you pick up the kids which in turn enforces your boundary that he must drop off the kids as stated in your court order.

**I'm not particularly attached to celebrating on the day either, everyplace is so crowded and busy because everyone and their mother is out there    My son and I are going to the movies tomorrow and I'm staying off the streets Sunday!

[Godslove]

Thank you for your insights! Yes. I got everything in writing. I just posted a new thread because I thought nobody would see my new problem in old thread. So I appreciate your support and insight. He sent me a new text saying he is responsible for his visitation so it makes me responsible for my visitation. Does that make me responsible for picking them up?

Happy Mother's Day Panda39 and enjoy the movie with your son!

[Panda39]

He sent me a new text saying he is responsible for his visitation so it makes me responsible for my visitation. Does that make me responsible for picking them up?

I guess the question is what does your court order say about the exchanges of the kids?  Are there specific instructions?

In my SO's case each parent picked up their kids when it was their turn for visitation.  My SO picked up his kids from the ex had them for his visitation then mom would pick them up when it was her turn.

[catnap]

Have you heard of Our Family Wizard (OFW)?

"The OFW website offers divorced or separated parents an array of tools to easily schedule and track parenting time, share important family information, manage expenses as well as create an accurate, clear log of divorce communication."

"You can use the OFW® website to track divorce communications, child custody calendars, visitation schedules, parenting time, shared expenses and more.  Every page is stamped with the last time both parents viewed the page, and every entry is documented with who made it and when.  The OFW® website produces clear, compelling records for court.  Our co-parenting tools are recommended by courts throughout the USA and Canada."

While I realize this does not help you as far as your current situation, but would be something to look into and ask for as your case moves along. 

[Godslove]

It just says "Husband shall be responsible during his visitation period". My l says it includes pick ups and drop offs. When I told them what happened about him not coming because of this issues, they told me that I have a draw a line and be strong. I did tell them that this needs to be clearer and I am willing to negotiate with other outstanding issues (no more discount on child support) and share the transportation.

How do you interpret this? Does this infer wife picks them?

[Godslove]

I just double checked. It says "In the event that school is closed, Husband shall drop the minor children off at Wife's residence by 7 pm". He was supposed to drop the kids off to school on Monday ending his period. That is why it stated like this at that time. Shortly after exercising, he realized that is too much hassle.  So he started dropping them off on Sunday at my place. He did it no problem or complaint until he got this number four woman. For Mother's day it says defined as the Saturday preceding the Mother's Day at 6 pm until when the regular schedule resumes.

I am still waiting to hear from my l... .Her secretary told me that she will have her call back. I feel that she will not call back.

[Panda39]

I just double checked. It says "In the event that school is closed, Husband shall drop the minor children off at Wife's residence by 7 pm". He was supposed to drop the kids off to school on Monday ending his period. That is why it stated like this at that time. Shortly after exercising, he realized that is too much hassle.  So he started dropping them off on Sunday at my place. He did it no problem or complaint until he got this number four woman. For Mother's day it says defined as the Saturday preceding the Mother's Day at 6 pm until when the regular schedule resumes.

I am still waiting to hear from my l... .Her secretary told me that she will have her call back. I feel that she will not call back.

Yep order is not clear about pick up and drop off outside of the regular schedule that he doesn't seem to be following anyway. This type of thing isn't a big deal unless you have to deal with someone high conflict  .  However it is clear you get your kids starting at 6p tonight.  If you want them for Mother,s Day it sounds like you've got to pick them up.  I would exercise that right... .honestly while things are in limbo/heading back to court, if I were you I would follow the court order as closely as you can in terms of your time.  Now if your ex wants to give you the children on Sundays rather than dropping them off on Monday at school let him that gives you more time with your kids and sets a precedence that you might be able to get modified in court.  Father currently has children until Monday school drop off but has consistently been returning them Sunday evening.  Get that Sunday drop off put in your new order.

Can you take a friend with you to pick up the kids?  It could keep any confrontation from getting out of hand.  Take a copy of your court order too in case things do get out of hand and you need police assistance getting it enforced.

You might also want to start a thread asking about the final orders people here have in place, what has worked, what hasn't worked.  With these high conflict divorces the court orders work best for you if you make them as ironclad as possible. 

If you haven't already I highly suggest you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger (maybe even suggest it to your lawyer)

[livednlearned]

If you insisted you had to pick the kids up at his place, he would probably drop them off at your place every time to spite you. 

The way this works is that you file a motion for contempt when someone is not complying with the court order. In other courts, a person can be fined or go to jail. In family law court, they sorta treat them like parking tickets. One or two or three, they look the other way. When there starts to be a pattern, the judge starts to notice that one of the parents has a problem abiding by the authority of the court. That's when court seems to care.

It can get expensive to file a lot of motions for contempt. So instead you might end up including a dozen instances where he does not follow the court order. Document all of this as best you can, with emails for example.

Things can settle down, although at this stage, it won't feel that way. I used to feel I would throw up from anxiety when I saw emails from N/BPDx. Then, at about 2 years post-divorce, they stopped having an effect on me. I would get an email that said, "You are a lying whore and a terrible mother, no one likes you. Blah blah blah." And just file it away. It stopped meaning anything.

[ForeverDad]

In family law court, they sorta treat them like parking tickets. One or two or three, they look the other way. When there starts to be a pattern, the judge starts to notice that one of the parents has a problem abiding by the authority of the court. That's when court seems to care.

It can get expensive to file a lot of motions for contempt. So instead you might end up including a dozen instances where he does not follow the court order. Document all of this as best you can, with emails for example.

Yes, the courts are infinitely patient and are reluctant to make a decision where one parent 'wins' and the other parent 'loses'.  But eventually they can see a pattern that needs to be addressed.  The key is a pattern.  That's where good documentation helps.  If the police got involved, include the report.  Otherwise, log or journal in writing the date, time, location, incident details, etc.

Be aware that older incidents are seen as being less 'actionable' except as history of a pattern.  I don't know if there is a set rule or limit but in my court I was stopped when trying to describe incidents over 6 months prior.  So if you're accumulating a list of your ex's improper actions, be aware that if some become over 6 months old (legal term is 'stale' then they may not be considered or be given much less attention.