Feelings of Guilt (1)

[Depression = 72% of members]

This is an interesting statement WR. I have been interested in my mother's FOO as to the origin of her having BPD. She describes her mother as super-competent, doing everything well. I have noticed that my mother's default is to do nothing, be helpless, and let others do things for her. When put in the position to do something- whatever it is- she is very insecure, asks constantly for reassurance. However, when she is put in the position to do something, she seems happy about it, even while stressing over every detail.

She wants to appear competent. When I was a teen, she would sign up to bake for school events- like the other mothers, and then come home and rage at me to bake. Heaven help me if the result was not up to her standards. Then I would get the blame for it. I remember raking leaves in the yard and her laughing at me for how poorly I did it. Surely this was projection, not that I understood that at the time. She is in a book club, and when it was her turn, she asked me to design the e mails, insert the picture of the book, then she takes credit for it. I wonder if she gave up on doing things she could do because according to her, her mother did everything so much better than she does.

People say that co-dependents choose people they have to fix. I agree that I have co-dependent tendencies, but I didn't see my H as anyone to fix, in fact, just the opposite. However, he had no interest in helping or being supportive to me. He appeared super competent, and at his job, he is. However, at home, when it came to things that were "women's work" in his mind, his response was refusal. Not feeding, not diapers, cooking, dishes. I don't understand why. This resulted in a man who appeared to be super competent to the outside world, but he seemed like another kid at the dinner table. A typical meal was me gathering up the kids when they were small, and helping them to eat, as much as they needed it- like cutting up finger foods, putting drinks in sippy cups. He would sit down first and start eating right away, just as if he was another kid. It would not occur to him to help one of the kids or ask me if I was eating too. I got into the habit of eating first, while I was fixing the food, so that I would be available to help the kids and not be hungry myself.  However, none of this was apparent to me while we were dating and not living together. So I was perplexed by it.

My H's father is not super competent, but he is critical, and constantly found fault with my H. It would make sense that he would shroud himself in a veneer of competence. With black and white thinking, I could see someone with BPD choose to make the impression of one of the two extremes- super competent or helpless, or both, depending on the circumstances.

As to sex, I did default to being not interested, or appearing to not be, when it seemed to me that I could not meet my H's needs no matter what I did. It was demoralizing to feel as if even if things were good, hearing "You never" felt as if he didn't remember it anyway. I felt that nothing I did could really make a difference, so why try. I also found that if I asked him to do something I liked, he took it as criticism and would get angry at me. These were factors that just led to me shutting down emotionally. Yet, I could do that and still, it was possible to have sex as ED is not an issue for me. For a guy, this is different. Whatever emotions that can lead to equipment failure can surely compound the situation.

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting statement WR. I have been interested in my mother's FOO as to the origin of her having BPD. She describes her mother as super-competent, doing everything well. I have noticed that my mother's default is to do nothing, be helpless, and let others do things for her. When put in the position to do something- whatever it is- she is very insecure, asks constantly for reassurance. However, when she is put in the position to do something, she seems happy about it, even while stressing over every detail.

She wants to appear competent. When I was a teen, she would sign up to bake for school events- like the other mothers, and then come home and rage at me to bake. Heaven help me if the result was not up to her standards. Then I would get the blame for it. I remember raking leaves in the yard and her laughing at me for how poorly I did it. Surely this was projection, not that I understood that at the time. She is in a book club, and when it was her turn, she asked me to design the e mails, insert the picture of the book, then she takes credit for it. I wonder if she gave up on doing things she could do because according to her, her mother did everything so much better than she does.

People say that co-dependents choose people they have to fix. I agree that I have co-dependent tendencies, but I didn't see my H as anyone to fix, in fact, just the opposite. However, he had no interest in helping or being supportive to me. He appeared super competent, and at his job, he is. However, at home, when it came to things that were "women's work" in his mind, his response was refusal. Not feeding, not diapers, cooking, dishes. I don't understand why. This resulted in a man who appeared to be super competent to the outside world, but he seemed like another kid at the dinner table. A typical meal was me gathering up the kids when they were small, and helping them to eat, as much as they needed it- like cutting up finger foods, putting drinks in sippy cups. He would sit down first and start eating right away, just as if he was another kid. It would not occur to him to help one of the kids or ask me if I was eating too. I got into the habit of eating first, while I was fixing the food, so that I would be available to help the kids and not be hungry myself.  However, none of this was apparent to me while we were dating and not living together. So I was perplexed by it.

My H's father is not super competent, but he is critical, and constantly found fault with my H. It would make sense that he would shroud himself in a veneer of competence. With black and white thinking, I could see someone with BPD choose to make the impression of one of the two extremes- super competent or helpless, or both, depending on the circumstances.

As to sex, I did default to being not interested, or appearing to not be, when it seemed to me that I could not meet my H's needs no matter what I did. It was demoralizing to feel as if even if things were good, hearing "You never" felt as if he didn't remember it anyway. I felt that nothing I did could really make a difference, so why try. I also found that if I asked him to do something I liked, he took it as criticism and would get angry at me. These were factors that just led to me shutting down emotionally. Yet, I could do that and still, it was possible to have sex as ED is not an issue for me. For a guy, this is different. Whatever emotions that can lead to equipment failure can surely compound the situation.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jhkbuzz]

I think it is good to want to do one's best, to try to improve, to be better, but when my H strives to be better than human, it rejects all that is human, including our best and weakest parts. I want  a human partner.  Your H may never be as capable or strong as you are, but is it possible that he sees you as so much more capable that he can't give you anything? - because this is how I felt with my H at one point.

I know that he thinks I am more capable. He has told me that. He has told me that he feels like I am so strong that he has nothing to give me that I can't give myself. Anything he can do, I can do better. That isn't me being arrogant. That is how things tend to shake out around here. One time, he went up in the attic to fix something. He fell through the ceiling and into a closet. I made sure that he was okay and then went up in the attic and took care of it myself. My husband has told me that he feels like I need a man that is a lot stronger than he will ever be. He has described me as a force of nature.

I think it would suck to live with somebody like me. It would be a lot of fun but it would also be rather difficult. Even my kids have made comments about my strength. I tend to be the calm in everyone else's storm.

My "friend" was strong enough to withstand MY storm and that was nice.

For what it's worth: I consider myself to be very strong and capable, just like you VOC.

What I'm uncovering in therapy is that that ^ covers my fear of being vulnerable; of showing people who I really am; warts, weaknesses and all.

And why am I afraid of showing people who I am? I think it has to do with shame connected to childhood sexual abuse.

[vortex of confusion]

Your high sex drive probably prevents his participation, and hence he switches to "spectator sport" mode. Following your lead equates to being to being second place. So he doesn't participate.

I don't think that is the case at all. For him, it is about avoiding intimacy and being uncomfortable with his own sexuality. He has struggled with same sex attraction for a good portion of his life. It has come up several times over the years. He is unable to accept that he is attracted to males. He struggles with feelings of disgust and self-hatred and doesn't feel very comfortable in his own skin a lot of the time. That isn't a recipe for someone to be an active participant in sex.

I feel really bad for him. He is a typical guy that wants to enjoy sex but he can't seem to get out of his own head.

This sets a precedent and they start to expand that mindset to all areas and assume there is no point as they are just not good enough.

I know he has made remarks along these lines before.

[Notwendy]

Maybe he is gay, and hasn't been able to come to terms with it. That could explain a lot- feeling hopeless, trying to escape through video games and porn, seeming interested in hearing about you and other men.

That isn't your issue to deal with but it is a sad place for both of you if he is gay, as you will want something from him that he doesn't have to give to a woman, and he will not be feeling as if he is living as his true self.

[Notwendy]

jhkbuzz- I think you make a good point about shame. I think shame is involved in all kinds of issues. I have noticed that my H, while appearing to be the competent one, is very passive when it comes to making some family decisions, like plans, or things that involve risk- picking a hotel for the vacation ( what if is isn't nice), choosing a new activity, and other things where the outcome isn't perfectly known. When he is passive, he can not be the one to make a mistake.

I, on the other hand, have made decisions that turn out well, and also have made errors, such as forgetting something on a trip ( since I packed myself and all the kids before they were old enough to do that- he only packs his things), chose the wrong wall paper color ( it looked really ugly after it was put up).  Neither I or my H are impulsive, however, my H will only consider doing something when he knows every single detail such as who will be there and what to wear,  and heaven help me if I mess up. Once we showed up for something- he was in a suit and it was black tie. I didn't know, but got blamed for that. His favorite sayings : YOU didn't tell me, I didn't know, ( even if I did tell him) this is the FIRST I have heard this, you are blindsiding me. This kind of victim speak about things he didn't need me to tell him ( he is a grown man) could find out himself, or I did tell him and he didn't listen) is frustrating. Sometimes he will ask me so many times for details that I am bound to mess up. One reason we hardly go anywhere as I am the one who makes plans and it can be emotionally trying to do this.

However, all this allows him to be blameless for those little things that don't always go perfectly.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe he is gay, and hasn't been able to come to terms with it. That could explain a lot- feeling hopeless, trying to escape through video games and porn, seeming interested in hearing about you and other men.

I know that and understand that. This isn't something new. I don't think that he is full on gay. I think he is somewhere on the bi spectrum.

That isn't your issue to deal with but it is a sad place for both of you if he is gay, as you will want something from him that he doesn't have to give to a woman, and he will not be feeling as if he is living as his true self.

I don't think it is a sad place at all. How would it be any different than the way things are now? The only real difference is that we would both have an explanation as to why he hasn't been able to give me certain things during our marriage.

If that is the case, he and I will figure it out. One thing that I know for sure about him is that he and I love our kids and are not opposed to finding creative and alternative solutions. That is why we experimented with an open marriage for a time.

[an0ught]

VoC, I get that you are afraid of conflict - you got your measure plentiful in your FOO  . You and your husband don't like conflicts - very understandable.

The guilt comes in because I feel like I started the conflict.

You sometimes start or drive conflicts. You are not a person who holds back her opinion - at least here on the board - so at times it would only be expected that this leads to conflict. Giving your handle "Vortex of Confusion" possibly there may be mixed signals you are sending at times confusing others which also can lead to conflicts.

Some people are more prone to start conflicts than others. As you acknowledged conflicts are not by something bad. They can be healthy - clarifying positions and boundaries, removing latent tension, initiating needed change or spurring us on to a solution. Once conflict has started it is often moot who and how it started and our focus should shift to how we behaving and how we end it. If we focus too much on feeling guilty that only colors our behavior in the conflict. (That is not to say it makes sense to reflect on it once in a while later like e.g. here).

The reason that this is relevant to my relationship with my husband is because I feel like I have given him the short end of the stick. I am hyper sensitive to yelling.

I wished I would not have first hand experience with this  . It possibly extends beyond yelling for you - being hyper-vigilant and ready to defend your position. Maybe it is just me but that is what I sense when I see how you share your affair immediately followed by a host of preemptive justifications and explanations.

It is so difficult to have a conversation with my husband about anything when he goes into defensive mode. I am not trying to attack him yet his defensive reaction tends to make me feel like I am being mean or attacking. Given my distaste for conflict, that defensiveness sent me to a place where I would find myself thing, "Crap, I need to tone it down. I am being just like them. He thinks I am attacking him and that is NOT what I am trying to do."

You have some awareness that you can at times come across as dominating and aggressive. I think there is something to your observation. Look at your posting record here - you give good advice and plenty - and when you do you take a clear position and use plenty of well articulated and targeted words. If you behave similar in a f2f conversation you can easily dominate someone less articulate - men often are.

To what extent do you two make it explicit that you are dominating? That he is - in the moment / in the place - the weak one? From what you write is seems it is obvious to everyone but is it acknowledged or is it one of the elephants in the room?

One of the things that I wish my husband could do is just listen. Let me have my feelings without trying to fix them. If I am sad, let me be sad. When he goes around asking what is wrong or tries to do this or that because I am expressing an emotion that makes him uncomfortable, it makes me feel like I have to be a circus monkey that can only be happy.

Pushing information doesn't promote listening. What helps with listening is careful listening ourselves and validation. Fewer carefully targeted and well timed words put into carefully prepared ground can get way, way further. Your husband is not in listening mode. But then you also shared some gaps in understanding yours H's motivation. To break out of this stalemate you can only work from your side with validation and careful sharing accepting some sense of vulnerability.

The board is btw. a good place to try out different conversation styles.

Any other emotion that I have is likely to make him feel bad or upset and lead him to question me.

This is a bit a co-dependent way of thinking. Feeling guilty / responsible for emotions elicited on the other side. We spend a lot of time worrying about the emotions of our partners here on the board from a regulation point of view - too excitements causes trouble for everyone. We should be not worrying so much *what* they feel, not trying to elicit or suppress particular emotions.

Letting go of outcome, trusting in ourselves to be able to manage situations when they arise is important to an open conversation. Boundaries - rules for ourselves - can be very helpful here making sure we have an explicitly thought out path to protect ourselves. This allows us to avoid radiating anxiety or making unconscious preemptive defensive moves (both can be perceived as aggressive by the other side) as well as instinctive over-reactions in case of surprises.

[waverider]

Often people who overdose on porn start to blur the lines with experimentation and the "taboo". Most would not openly admit it though. Straight guys starting to think along bi lines is common. Throw in BPD and the jump goes from a small step to a leap, and back again. The result is rather than accepting their own sexuality it causes greater confusion and insecurity.

[Notwendy]

I don't think it is sad to be gay. I have no issues with anyone being gay.

What makes it sad is if he has not been able to come to terms with his sexuality and his attraction to men. That is sad for him because it is sad to not accept a part of yourself.

Sad if he has a FOO that would not accept him as a gay or bisexual man.

The high suicide rate of teens who are gay - from feeling rejected, or being bullied, tells me that it can be a sad place for someone who is struggling with his/her sexuality. Sad for people who love someone who is struggling with this, as it is hard to see a loved one struggling.

Shame if raised with the idea that there is something wrong with same sex attractions.

How would it be different from where you are with him now? It doesn't seem that you two are in a happy place sexually now. I do think it is possible for the two of you to work out a way to be a family and parents to your kids while being who you are sexually. It seems you are both open to that, just not there yet. However, if he is having a personal struggle with same sex attraction- this can be hard for him even in an accepting relationship.

[vortex of confusion]

You sometimes start or drive conflicts. You are not a person who holds back her opinion - at least here on the board - so at times it would only be expected that this leads to conflict. Giving your handle "Vortex of Confusion" possibly there may be mixed signals you are sending at times confusing others which also can lead to conflicts.

<sigh> You are spot on with this anOught! Even when I try to hold back, it seems that I create conflict. It frustrates me.

I have figured out that, when talking to my husband, I can't be wishy washy. I have to know what I want and be able to articulate it clearly. Anything less than that seems to create conflict.

Some people are more prone to start conflicts than others. As you acknowledged conflicts are not by something bad. They can be healthy - clarifying positions and boundaries, removing latent tension, initiating needed change or spurring us on to a solution. Once conflict has started it is often moot who and how it started and our focus should shift to how we behaving and how we end it. If we focus too much on feeling guilty that only colors our behavior in the conflict. (That is not to say it makes sense to reflect on it once in a while later like e.g. here).

I feel like there are times when I create conflict simply by opening my mouth. That applies to way more than just my marriage.

I try not to feel guilty about it. However, guilt seems to occur naturally because I am wanting to resolve things and keep the conflict healthy and productive yet there are times when I feel like my attempts fail. This goes back to FOO stuff and I know that.

I wished I would not have first hand experience with this  . It possibly extends beyond yelling for you - being hyper-vigilant and ready to defend your position. Maybe it is just me but that is what I sense when I see how you share your affair immediately followed by a host of preemptive justifications and explanations.

You are 100% correct. It does extend beyond yelling. I know why. I was a daddy's girl as a kid. My dad challenged me a lot. He still does. If I go to him and tell him that I am thinking about doing something, he will ask me all sorts of questions and get me to thinking about why. He challenges me to think about all of the possibilities. I am a logical person. I like things to make sense. The affair stuff still doesn't make sense to me. I am trying to find the logic in it. If I can find the logic, then that might alleviate the feelings of guilt and discomfort. I feel like I have to have a reason for everything that I do.

You have some awareness that you can at times come across as dominating and aggressive. I think there is something to your observation. Look at your posting record here - you give good advice and plenty - and when you do you take a clear position and use plenty of well articulated and targeted words. If you behave similar in a f2f conversation you can easily dominate someone less articulate - men often are.

I have a lot of awareness of my tendency to come across and dominating and aggressive. My husband describes me as a force of nature.

I feel like I handle f2f conversations a little differently. In f2f conversations, I don't have the benefit of being able to proofread what I say. I feel like I am more reserved in f2f conversations. You are absolutely right that I can easily dominate somebody less articulate. When I see that I am in a situation like that, I tend to shut up and smile and nod. In person, I have a strong presence. I have been told that it tends to be pretty warm and comforting and not intimidating at all. I can't tell you the number of times that I have been in a store and had complete strangers come up to me and ask me for help or information.

To what extent do you two make it explicit that you are dominating? That he is - in the moment / in the place - the weak one? From what you write is seems it is obvious to everyone but is it acknowledged or is it one of the elephants in the room?

It isn't the elephant in the room. After I first saw this post, I went outside to think about what you have said in response. My husband came to join me. We talked a bit about our communication styles. I asked him if he felt like I dominate things in conversation. In conversations, he tends to dominate UNLESS I have a firm position with clear cut reasons and pristine logic. If that is the case, then he doesn't have a fighting chance.

He and I actually joke about my dominance. He jokingly said one day, "So, does that mean I am a kept man." I responded, "Well, I plan to keep you." And he and I have had discussions about the role reversals that seem to go on in our house.

Pushing information doesn't promote listening. What helps with listening is careful listening ourselves and validation. Fewer carefully targeted and well timed words put into carefully prepared ground can get way, way further. Your husband is not in listening mode. But then you also shared some gaps in understanding yours H's motivation. To break out of this stalemate you can only work from your side with validation and careful sharing accepting some sense of vulnerability.

I feel like we have recently made some ground in this area. I was able to tell him that I cannot handle fast paced conversations when we are talking about important stuff. I need to time to think about what he is saying and respond with care. I can't do that when he is going too fast. Both of us tend to be more comfortable with the written word yet that doesn't work for us as a means of communication on a consistent basis because when he reads my words he can't see my body language. When I speak in f2f conversations, I think my body says way more than my words. I am a very expressive person and a lot of my words tend to be softened in f2f interactions.

This is a bit a co-dependent way of thinking. Feeling guilty / responsible for emotions elicited on the other side. We spend a lot of time worrying about the emotions of our partners here on the board from a regulation point of view - too excitements causes trouble for everyone. We should be not worrying so much *what* they feel, not trying to elicit or suppress particular emotions.

Hmmm. . .I am not sure if I am worried about how he feels in this instance. I think I am more concerned with how to get him to leave me alone with my stuff without being a jerk about it.

Letting go of outcome, trusting in ourselves to be able to manage situations when they arise is important to an open conversation. Boundaries - rules for ourselves - can be very helpful here making sure we have an explicitly thought out path to protect ourselves. This allows us to avoid radiating anxiety or making unconscious preemptive defensive moves (both can be perceived as aggressive by the other side) as well as instinctive over-reactions in case of surprises.

I think I am still at the stage of figuring out rules for myself. The more secure I am in myself and what I want, the easier it is for me to communicate that to my husband without all of the BS.

Thank you so much for taking the time to challenge me on this and help me sort this out!   

[vortex of confusion]

Often people who overdose on porn start to blur the lines with experimentation and the "taboo". Most would not openly admit it though. Straight guys starting to think along bi lines is common. Throw in BPD and the jump goes from a small step to a leap, and back again. The result is rather than accepting their own sexuality it causes greater confusion and insecurity.

Hmmm. . .I have read that in several places.

I don't think his confusion comes from the porn. I think the confusion was there BEFORE the porn. I think the porn and other stuff was a form of escaping the confusion. I say this because he has shared that he had crushes on guys when he was in middle school. He has shared that there was some mild experimentation. There was stuff there before porn entered the picture. And, the porn that he had access to when he was a teen and younger was basically his dad's magazine stash.

[Surg_Bear]

Maybe he is gay, and hasn't been able to come to terms with it. That could explain a lot- feeling hopeless, trying to escape through video games and porn, seeming interested in hearing about you and other men.

That isn't your issue to deal with but it is a sad place for both of you if he is gay, as you will want something from him that he doesn't have to give to a woman, and he will not be feeling as if he is living as his true self.

He sounds clearly bisexual, and he is not living as his true self if he cannot truly accept same sex attraction in himself. 

"Living as his true self" means different things to different people.  I don't live my true self if you look at my sexual behavior.  I have sex with my wife once a year.  I desire sex with both men and women, but never have sex with men, and rarely, if at all with a woman.  These are limits imposed upon me from an external agent, and my willingness to accept this.  My wife limits the amount of sex we have (and it is killing me).  I chose to marry into a conventional monogamous heterosexual relationship.  "Convention" imposes that I do not stray from the marriage to seek sexual play with another woman or man.

I think that a bisexual can live true to their self and be in a conventional monogamous relationship.  This is possible only if the bisexual person is fully aware of, and can own the attraction to the gender opposite the spouse, and do something fulfilling with it.  It might mean gay porn and masturbation night, or if in a gay marriage (legal now,  ) heterosexual porn and masturbation night; or some shared activity that fills the other needs.  The bisexual can, in my opinion, have a sexually fulfilling life in a monogamous relationship only if he /she accepts it, and their partner accepts it.

In VOC's situation, the thing that appears to be lacking is the husband's acceptance of his own sexual identity.  Not necessarily gay, bisexual, or heterosexual, but the basic core experience of a sexual being.  It sounds like he is having trouble accepting that he has ANY sexual needs.  He goes about hiding his sexuality from his church, family and wife, because he wants to put up the front that he has NO sexuality at all.

I know how painful this situation can be because I am married to a person who would rather be asexual than face all of the shame associated with owning sexual desire / needs.  I am doubly cursed because I chose a heterosexual relationship under the void warranty that enough sex with my wife would make it easier for me to go without sex with men.  That worked for the short times in our lives where we had "enough sex."  I never strayed from my marriage but sex- any sex, at this point, is a hopeless cause. Now, I am an unfulfilled bisexual man who is living a sexless / celibate life.  This is so freaking painful I can't hardly stand it- but I don't want to hijack this thread.

I respect VOC wanting to stay in her marriage- she is doing it for all the right reasons.  (I just can't.)  I don't know that there is a VOC solution to the intimacy issue in her marriage.  I believe the ball is in his court, and he is too ashamed to even look in his lap to see the ball sitting there. 

Pun sort of intended.

VOC has done, or is doing the work.  Now it is truly his turn to step up to the plate and play ball.



Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

In VOC's situation, the thing that appears to be lacking is the husband's acceptance of his own sexual identity.  Not necessarily gay, bisexual, or heterosexual, but the basic core experience of a sexual being.  It sounds like he is having trouble accepting that he has ANY sexual needs.  He goes about hiding his sexuality from his church, family and wife, because he wants to put up the front that he has NO sexuality at all.

Yes, yes, yes! You have beautifully captured what I think is the core issue. The day after we got married, we went to my parents house to pick up some stuff. He said something along the lines of, "Man, I feel weird. Everybody knows that we have had sex." He seemed ashamed of it and almost like he wanted to crawl inside of himself and hide the fact that we had sex. At the time, I didn't think anything of it. I thought it was kind of cute. If only I knew then what I know now. . .

I respect VOC wanting to stay in her marriage- she is doing it for all the right reasons.  (I just can't.)  I don't know that there is a VOC solution to the intimacy issue in her marriage.  I believe the ball is in his court, and he is too ashamed to even look in his lap to see the ball sitting there. 

I can see several possible solutions. I have to figure out which ones are going to work best for all parties involved, especially the kids.

I have no problems bucking tradition and seeking creative solutions. One of the things that I really like about my husband is the fact that, if I figure out what I want and can present it to him in a way that shows how it is win-win for everyone, then he will likely go along with it. He can be very submissive but only if I am not wishy washy or uncertain.

VOC has done, or is doing the work.  Now it is truly his turn to step up to the plate and play ball.

I think he would rather give me the ball back and watch me play. 

[jhkbuzz]

Maybe he is gay, and hasn't been able to come to terms with it. That could explain a lot- feeling hopeless, trying to escape through video games and porn, seeming interested in hearing about you and other men.

That isn't your issue to deal with but it is a sad place for both of you if he is gay, as you will want something from him that he doesn't have to give to a woman, and he will not be feeling as if he is living as his true self.

He sounds clearly bisexual, and he is not living as his true self if he cannot truly accept same sex attraction in himself.  

"Living as his true self" means different things to different people.  I don't live my true self if you look at my sexual behavior.  I have sex with my wife once a year.  I desire sex with both men and women, but never have sex with men, and rarely, if at all with a woman.  These are limits imposed upon me from an external agent, and my willingness to accept this.  My wife limits the amount of sex we have (and it is killing me).  I chose to marry into a conventional monogamous heterosexual relationship.  "Convention" imposes that I do not stray from the marriage to seek sexual play with another woman or man.

I think that a bisexual can live true to their self and be in a conventional monogamous relationship.  This is possible only if the bisexual person is fully aware of, and can own the attraction to the gender opposite the spouse, and do something fulfilling with it.  It might mean gay porn and masturbation night, or if in a gay marriage (legal now,  ) heterosexual porn and masturbation night; or some shared activity that fills the other needs.  The bisexual can, in my opinion, have a sexually fulfilling life in a monogamous relationship only if he /she accepts it, and their partner accepts it.

In VOC's situation, the thing that appears to be lacking is the husband's acceptance of his own sexual identity.  Not necessarily gay, bisexual, or heterosexual, but the basic core experience of a sexual being.  It sounds like he is having trouble accepting that he has ANY sexual needs.  He goes about hiding his sexuality from his church, family and wife, because he wants to put up the front that he has NO sexuality at all.

I know how painful this situation can be because I am married to a person who would rather be asexual than face all of the shame associated with owning sexual desire / needs.  I am doubly cursed because I chose a heterosexual relationship under the void warranty that enough sex with my wife would make it easier for me to go without sex with men.  That worked for the short times in our lives where we had "enough sex."  I never strayed from my marriage but sex- any sex, at this point, is a hopeless cause. Now, I am an unfulfilled bisexual man who is living a sexless / celibate life.  This is so freaking painful I can't hardly stand it- but I don't want to hijack this thread.

I respect VOC wanting to stay in her marriage- she is doing it for all the right reasons.  (I just can't.)  I don't know that there is a VOC solution to the intimacy issue in her marriage.  I believe the ball is in his court, and he is too ashamed to even look in his lap to see the ball sitting there.  

Pun sort of intended.

VOC has done, or is doing the work.  Now it is truly his turn to step up to the plate and play ball.

Surg_Bear

I am coming to terms with the fact that I am bisexual - I have lived most of my life as a gay woman, but I am much more sexually attracted to men. I think that the problem is unresolved sexual abuse from childhood.  When I am in a r/s with a man I thoroughly enjoy our sexual r/s when it begins - but I eventually become severely anxious that what happens sexually will spiral out of my control (as in "I'll have to have sex when I don't want to." I also feel like I've done something "bad" when I act on my sexuality with a man. As you can imagine, this has caused many "push/pull" r/s's with men over the course of my life.

On the other hand, sex with women doesn't trigger me. My primary attraction to women is emotional and not sexual, but I can cross the line (obviously). I was not at all attracted to my ex when we met, but she idealized me and was very sexual, and I had been single and celibate for a long time. With her, I was not at all anxious; I knew I was in control of my sexuality and everything that happened with my body; I didn't feel "bad" when we began having sex. I think that is always why I default to r/s's with women.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread, my point is this: I am only interested in having a monogamous r/s. If I am with a man I miss women; if I am with a woman I miss men. (I solved this with my ex by fantasizing sometimes when we had sex; I never told her and consider it "no harm done". In the end, I don't think this is terribly differently than the dilemma that exists for straight couples who are monogamous. If you are in a r/s with ANYONE for any length of time you will eventually be attracted to someone else - man, woman, gay, straight, doesn't matter. If monogamy is part of your value system within a r/s, you will eventually be tempted (and have to resist) no matter what your sexual orientation.

[Notwendy]

I think all the different perspectives shared on this thread are insightful. A topic such as guilt is bound to be broad, and individual. There is much information on this thread about childhood  scripts,  shame , and sexuality- topics that can impact intimate relationships.

As a straight woman, of course being in a marriage doesn't mean one isn't tempted. Attraction is possible but one can decide to be monogomous regardless, or not. Being straight doesn't eliminate shame over sexuality, especially when a child has been shamed or abused. It may not be different from being bisexual in the sense that one can be attracted to a spouse.

However, I think a homosexual person in a monogomous straight marriage is a recipe for unhappiness, as one spouse can not truly be fully desired while the other is negating a very core essence of their being. Likewise, a sexless marriage between any two people would be tough to deal with unless both agree to it.

I assume my H is straight. It was very painful to feel I was not able to be good enough for him or give him enough sexually. I gave all I could, but I am only one person. I didn't want someone to feel stuck or deprived with me. If I hypothetically found out my spouse was gay, I would let him go, with love, to be who he was while still being a coparent.

[vortex of confusion]

On the other hand, sex with women doesn't trigger me. My primary attraction to women is emotional and not sexual, but I can cross the line (obviously). I was not at all attracted to my ex when we met, but she idealized me and was very sexual, and I had been single and celibate for a long time. With her, I was not at all anxious; I knew I was in control of my sexuality and everything that happened with my body; I didn't feel "bad" when we began having sex. I think that is always why I default to r/s's with women.

Thank you or sharing this. I have had these vague feelings of being triggered with my husband. Not sure how to explain it. I was sexually abused as a child. My husband's tentativeness and feelings of shame bring back how I would feel after stuff happened when I was a kid. There was shame and nobody talked about it.

I never got those feelings with my friend because he completely owned his sexuality and there was no tentativeness. I could embrace my sexuality and express it without feeling like I was doing something wrong. And, he and I would openly discuss what we liked and wanted without all of the creepy feelings that I sometimes get from my husband.

That has created a lot of conflict for me because I should be feeling that way with my husband. The man that I have been married to for 17 years and have four children with. The man that I made solemn vows to should be the one that I feel comfortable and safe with sexually.

If you are in a r/s with ANYONE for any length of time you will eventually be attracted to someone else - man, woman, gay, straight, doesn't matter. If monogamy is part of your value system within a r/s, you will eventually be tempted (and have to resist) no matter what your sexual orientation.

I don't think I have ever had any problems resisting temptation. For 15 years, I barely looked at another man in that way.

I don't know where monogamy fits in my value system. From the very beginning, my husband and I have had theoretical discussions about polyamory, etc. When we were dating, we hung out at a place that was frequented by people in alternative relationships. Both of us have said that we would rather find alternatives than end the relationship. We can be great friends when we both pull our heads out of our butts.

[Cat Familiar]

I want to add a different angle to this discussion: asexuality. Lately there have been some interesting articles in the media about young people embracing asexuality as just another orientation.

Like notwendy, my hormones have taken a nosedive. When I was younger, I was highly sexual, but quickly bored with a romantic partner. I was not sexually attracted to my first husband, but I was extremely attracted to my second. With time and getting to know his quirks (and BPD), the attraction has faded and I'm quite happily asexual. However I can still notice attractive men and feel those almost forgotten feelings, though I would never stray.

[vortex of confusion]

As a straight woman, of course being in a marriage doesn't mean one isn't tempted. Attraction is possible but one can decide to be monogomous regardless, or not.

Here is MY reality. If I choose to be monogamous in the long term, the reality is that I might not have the mental fortitude to stay. I cannot live the rest of my life in a r/s where my husband and I are great friends but I am missing some very basic things.

Does that make me a bad person?

It isn't about attraction or resisting temptation. It is about knowing about MY needs and trying to figure out how to get them met. It is about me figuring out how to clearly and articulately communicate this stuff to my husband.

Right now, all possible solutions are raising feelings of guilt for me. I am trying to work through those feelings of guilt so that I can have a clearer view of what it is that I want.

[Notwendy]

I don't think you are a bad person, VOC. You are a real person with real needs. Be true to yourself. I hope you can work out the guilt, because I don't see you doing something to feel guilty about. Really, being true to yourself is a gift to you and your H.

[jhkbuzz]

As a straight woman, of course being in a marriage doesn't mean one isn't tempted. Attraction is possible but one can decide to be monogomous regardless, or not.

Here is MY reality. If I choose to be monogamous in the long term, the reality is that I might not have the mental fortitude to stay. I cannot live the rest of my life in a r/s where my husband and I are great friends but I am missing some very basic things.

Does that make me a bad person?

It isn't about attraction or resisting temptation. It is about knowing about MY needs and trying to figure out how to get them met. It is about me figuring out how to clearly and articulately communicate this stuff to my husband.

Right now, all possible solutions are raising feelings of guilt for me. I am trying to work through those feelings of guilt so that I can have a clearer view of what it is that I want.

This is the real problem in a nutshell: you are between a rock and a hard place. None of your options are good ones.  I know this feeling and it SUCKS.

You know what you want (an intimate, sexual r/s with your husband) but he can't or won't provide that for you. There is nothing wrong with what you want; many people would agree that you could reasonably choose to end the r/s over his inability to provide this.  After all, that's what people get married for - otherwise we would all simply remain friends! But I understand that you have not decided what you want. There are children involved; perhaps your decisions will change as they get older.

I understand the "we can be great friends" dilemma - I was "great friends" with my ex too - but she avoided me sexually - and then started sleeping with others. My self esteem couldn't deal with that 1-2 punch. And, in the end, I shouldn't have to.

[jhkbuzz]

On the other hand, sex with women doesn't trigger me. My primary attraction to women is emotional and not sexual, but I can cross the line (obviously). I was not at all attracted to my ex when we met, but she idealized me and was very sexual, and I had been single and celibate for a long time. With her, I was not at all anxious; I knew I was in control of my sexuality and everything that happened with my body; I didn't feel "bad" when we began having sex. I think that is always why I default to r/s's with women.

I never got those feelings with my friend because he completely owned his sexuality and there was no tentativeness. I could embrace my sexuality and express it without feeling like I was doing something wrong. And, he and I would openly discuss what we liked and wanted without all of the creepy feelings that I sometimes get from my husband.

I understand that - I am very drawn to men that are very comfortable with their sexuality because it's what I want to be. I always seem to seek to "balance" myself with other people - if you have what I want to develop within myself, I'm fascinated with you! I need to stop doing this, though, and develop these things within myself. That's the only place my healing will come from.

If you are in a r/s with ANYONE for any length of time you will eventually be attracted to someone else - man, woman, gay, straight, doesn't matter. If monogamy is part of your value system within a r/s, you will eventually be tempted (and have to resist) no matter what your sexual orientation.

I don't think I have ever had any problems resisting temptation. For 15 years, I barely looked at another man in that way.

I don't know where monogamy fits in my value system. From the very beginning, my husband and I have had theoretical discussions about polyamory, etc. When we were dating, we hung out at a place that was frequented by people in alternative relationships. Both of us have said that we would rather find alternatives than end the relationship. We can be great friends when we both pull our heads out of our butts.

Let me ask you a question: if your husband was able to fulfill your needs, would you still be looking for an alternate r/s? If not, you would prefer to be monogamous but are trying to find ways to get your own needs met in this r/s.

[vortex of confusion]

Let me ask you a question: if your husband was able to fulfill your needs, would you still be looking for an alternate r/s?

If he was able to fulfill my needs, I would not even consider an alternate r/s. To clarify, I am NOT looking for an alternate relationship. I am considering the different possibilities. I am considering it as a possible alternative to divorce or separation. If he was fulfilling my needs, I don't think that I would even consider any other possibilities.

If not, you would prefer to be monogamous but are trying to find ways to get your own needs met in this r/s.

Monogamous is definitely my preference. I am trying to work with what I have.

[jhkbuzz]

Let me ask you a question: if your husband was able to fulfill your needs, would you still be looking for an alternate r/s?

If he was able to fulfill my needs, I would not even consider an alternate r/s. To clarify, I am NOT looking for an alternate relationship. I am considering the different possibilities. I am considering it as a possible alternative to divorce or separation. If he was fulfilling my needs, I don't think that I would even consider any other possibilities.

If not, you would prefer to be monogamous but are trying to find ways to get your own needs met in this r/s.

Monogamous is definitely my preference. I am trying to work with what I have.

I completely understand. I thought I "picked up on" the fact that you would be happily monogamous if your husband would/could fulfill your needs - but I wasn't completely sure.

This is tough, because decisions about monogamy are about personal boundaries. About how far we will bend our boundaries in order to be with someone else.

I faced those kinds of decisions a lot with my ex.

[vortex of confusion]

I completely understand. I thought I "picked up on" the fact that you would be happily monogamous if your husband would/could fulfill your needs - but I wasn't completely sure.

This is tough, because decisions about monogamy are about personal boundaries. About how far we will bend our boundaries in order to be with someone else.

I faced those kinds of decisions a lot with my ex.

Thank you for picking up on this and pointing it out to me.

I love my husband. He can be a really great guy. He and I have weathered some pretty difficult stuff together and have come out better and stronger every time. There is just that missing piece that I would really love to have some day. I am hoping that I can get that missing piece from my husband. At the same time, I don't want to engage in magical thinking. I am trying to radically accept the situation and it isn't easy.

[Cat Familiar]

I love my husband. He can be a really great guy. He and I have weathered some pretty difficult stuff together and have come out better and stronger every time. There is just that missing piece that I would really love to have some day. I am hoping that I can get that missing piece from my husband. At the same time, I don't want to engage in magical thinking. I am trying to radically accept the situation and it isn't easy.

You have come a long way, Vortex, and I want to remind you that it wasn't too long ago when you were so frustrated with your husband that you couldn't have written these words.

[formflier]

I am hoping that I can get that missing piece from my husband. 

If he asked you to describe that piece to him... .what would that sound like?

[vortex of confusion]

I am hoping that I can get that missing piece from my husband. 

If he asked you to describe that piece to him... .what would that sound like?

Oh man, why did you have to ask a question like that? 

I have been pondering this question all day. I have a few ideas of what it might look like but I don't think it is something that I can articulate in concrete terms.

[formflier]

 

Here is where I am going with this... .

If it is something you can describe to him... .and he can do... .then maybe it is more about him...

If it is something that you feel... .but is hard to describe... .them maybe it is more about you...

Not that either answer is right or wrong... .it is.

I've found some things that I "blamed" on my situation with my wife... .but really were more about me... .

Hope this makes sense... .

FF

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .